EPTOn January 21 2015 19:38 Squat wrote:
They're doing that. It's called legacy of the void.
They're doing that. It's called legacy of the void.
Last time I checked, Swar Host was still the unit they plan on to be involved in LotV. Has this changed?
Jan 20 Balance Test Map Update - Swarm Host & Raven - Page…
| Forum Index > SC2 General |
|
Everlong
Czech Republic1973 Posts
Last time I checked, Swar Host was still the unit they plan on to be involved in LotV. Has this changed? | ||
|
Swisslink
2956 Posts
On January 21 2015 19:40 Everlong wrote: Last time I checked, Swar Host was still the unit they plan on to be involved in LotV. Has this changed? The Swarm Host in LotV is not a turtle-unit at all. Therefore the unit can't be compared to the Swarm Host in HotS. | ||
|
Squat
Sweden7978 Posts
| ||
|
Homunculus159
Austria220 Posts
On January 21 2015 19:40 Everlong wrote: Last time I checked, Swar Host was still the unit they plan on to be involved in LotV. Has this changed? So what in your opinion is wrong with new swarmhosts (keeping in mind it is still alpha) | ||
|
OtherWorld
France17333 Posts
On January 21 2015 19:40 Everlong wrote: Last time I checked, Swar Host was still the unit they plan on to be involved in LotV. Has this changed? No, but its role in the game is radically changed, so it's basically a removal of the old SH and the addition of a new SH + Lurkers. | ||
|
KeksX
Germany3634 Posts
On January 21 2015 19:47 OtherWorld wrote: No, but its role in the game is radically changed, so it's basically a removal of the old SH and the addition of a new SH + Lurkers. Well that and ravagers making roach-based play really really strong. | ||
|
OtherWorld
France17333 Posts
On January 21 2015 19:51 KeksX wrote: Well that and ravagers making roach-based play really really strong. I dunno, right now ravagers seem not that strong, with their mortar attack being really easy to dodge. | ||
|
Homunculus159
Austria220 Posts
On January 21 2015 19:56 OtherWorld wrote: I dunno, right now ravagers seem not that strong, with their mortar attack being really easy to dodge. They are pretty strong vs balls (mech/toss) and generally good for zoning out | ||
|
KeksX
Germany3634 Posts
On January 21 2015 19:56 OtherWorld wrote: I dunno, right now ravagers seem not that strong, with their mortar attack being really easy to dodge. They are really good at zoning, though. You make your opponent decide to either a) take damage or b) leave the fight with units, giving you an opportunity They are also great at damaging immobile armies(mech etc), combine that with the harrassing opportunity swarmhosts have and I think it could play out really well in LotV. No idea how good the new SHs will actually be in HotS, though. Thats what we got the map for I guess!  | ||
|
Everlong
Czech Republic1973 Posts
On January 21 2015 19:47 Homunculus159 wrote: So what in your opinion is wrong with new swarmhosts (keeping in mind it is still alpha) I think flying locusts are very wrong. For harrasment purposes, you have Mutalisks, which can overcome terrain. The fact that you can't really do anything to the locusts until they land is potentially even worse then current respawn timer. Lurker and Ravagers seem to be enough for siege/harrasment options. The new nydus worm is also a way to harass, so I don't really understand the role they are supposed to fill. You can't expect the new Swarm Host to stop Protoss deathball from marching in I think too. So why keep it in the game? It has been the source of frustration the last year or so and I don't think it is going to be much different, even with changes they plan on doing, I still think it is going to be very kind of allin strat, very annoying to deal with and frustrating for both sides. edit: Also, it seems like they want people to use them the same way Brood Lord is used, so it overlaps here too. | ||
|
JCoto
Spain574 Posts
They should buff Broodlord play (specially micro and speed/acceleration) which is the air siege unit of zerg and also late tech. Swarm Hosts could be more mobile, interesting or funky on abilities. No need for free flying harassers that come out from a ground speedy unit, easily destroying your lategame bases in a locust wave. It also makes Swarm Hosts useless without upgrade (same as they are now) which is not good. Every unit should have a viable style without upgrade and then having an interesting upgrade that gives them bonus functionality, not viability. Locusts spawning without autoballing is a solution also worth considering, as it minimizes the splash effect from tanks and storms. The campaign Carrion (spawning creep, ability to move within creep) and stats are fare more interesting for SH. Slightly weaker, far more mobile, an effective siege as it forms domination over terrain. Lategame territorial domination becomes then a nightmare for turtles. Dominating the field is something very zergy and really interesting, both offensively and defensively. Other parts of the Zerg tech are also underused or worth improving to help the lategame: Nydus tech, Drop tech, Ultralisk AI (which is horrible). | ||
|
algue
France1436 Posts
| ||
|
Homunculus159
Austria220 Posts
On January 21 2015 20:07 Everlong wrote: I think flying locusts are very wrong. For harrasment purposes, you have Mutalisks, which can overcome terrain. The fact that you can't really do anything to the locusts until they land is potentially even worse then current respawn timer. Lurker and Ravagers seem to be enough for siege/harrasment options. The new nydus worm is also a way to harass, so I don't really understand the role they are supposed to fill. You can't expect the new Swarm Host to stop Protoss deathball from marching in I think too. So why keep it in the game? It has been the source of frustration the last year or so and I don't think it is going to be much different, even with changes they plan on doing, I still think it is going to be very kind of allin strat, very annoying to deal with and frustrating for both sides. edit: Also, it seems like they want people to use them the same way Brood Lord is used, so it overlaps here too. I agree that they kinda take away the role of the broodlords but you actually can damage the locust while they are in the air potentially killing them before they even do landing animation. Though the new sh are used seperately from the army. Like with broodlords you would need a lot of support for them whereas here its more compareable to zealot harass or a medivac drop. And of course tempests need a nerf for broodlords to be viable again. Also the new sh are good vs mech without enough air support. I think with the new sh matches are gonna be interesting and i am interested to see how they are gonna be used. I do not think its gonna be frustrating like the old sh was to play against. I mean if it does not work and they are unusable maybe they will remove it. With this and tge legacy of the void plans they showed that they are willing to make drastic changes if needed. I just think we should at least give the new sh a chance | ||
|
Existor
Russian Federation4295 Posts
On January 21 2015 20:17 algue wrote: The problem remains that the Swarm Host is able to deal damage without taking any risk whatsoever Battlecruisers can deal damage without taking risk. Yamato. Tempests can deal damage without taking risk. Long range weapon. Protoss army can deal damage without taking risk. Recall. Terrans can lose SCVs without taking risk. MULEs. Widow mines can deal damage without taking risk. Kill detection and cover with marines. Continue? | ||
|
Dingodile
4139 Posts
I played yesterday 1hour after this balance update and the testmap was with old stuff. | ||
|
Homunculus159
Austria220 Posts
On January 21 2015 20:31 Existor wrote: Battlecruisers can deal damage without taking risk. Yamato. Tempests can deal damage without taking risk. Long range weapon. Protoss army can deal damage without taking risk. Recall. Terrans can lose SCVs without taking risk. MULEs. Widow mines can deal damage without taking risk. Kill detection and cover with marines. Continue? Your risk with the points you mentioned is that you can actually lose your units to other units whereas the sh can spawn locusts comfortably from far away. | ||
|
ZenithM
France15952 Posts
On January 21 2015 13:06 BisuDagger wrote: Nerd to pdd fine. Buff to autoturret next please? All those sad PDD nerds... I would gladly take an autoturret buff though, you're right  | ||
|
KeksX
Germany3634 Posts
On January 21 2015 20:36 Homunculus159 wrote: Your risk with the points you mentioned is that you can actually lose your units to other units whereas the sh can spawn locusts comfortably from far away. While being exposed, horribly slow and most of the time out of position.... So yeah, they're not really risk free unless you have free map control, in which case mostly everything is risk free. | ||
|
Homunculus159
Austria220 Posts
On January 21 2015 20:40 KeksX wrote: While being burrowed, horribly slow and most of the time out of position.... So yeah, they're not really risk free unless you have free map control, in which case mostly everything is risk free. It really depends since most of the time (talking about pro games) they are used defensively which is pretty much riskfree compared to BCs attacking or a protoss army with recall. And afterwards they just spawn endless waves of free units who travel through most of the map. I mean yeah sure if the Sh are somewhere out of position without static D support it is a risk but it doesnt happen that often or at least not to good SH users. Especially not against mech. And most of the time it forces pvz into the very late game. | ||
|
JCoto
Spain574 Posts
On January 21 2015 20:24 Homunculus159 wrote: I agree that they kinda take away the role of the broodlords but you actually can damage the locust while they are in the air potentially killing them before they even do landing animation. Though the new sh are used seperately from the army. Like with broodlords you would need a lot of support for them whereas here its more compareable to zealot harass or a medivac drop. And of course tempests need a nerf for broodlords to be viable again. Also the new sh are good vs mech without enough air support. I think with the new sh matches are gonna be interesting and i am interested to see how they are gonna be used. I do not think its gonna be frustrating like the old sh was to play against. I mean if it does not work and they are unusable maybe they will remove it. With this and tge legacy of the void plans they showed that they are willing to make drastic changes if needed. I just think we should at least give the new sh a chance You just described the real problem. A tech replaces the other one. And now, thinking about numbers, just imagine how hard is to kill a big locust wave without splash damage. Then imagine that applied in the air terrain. Then, that situation is real and the only counter is than using mass thors or mass archons/phoenix. (extremely cost innefficient given the cost/risk for the zerg player). They should buff broodlords control and micro, giving them some speed, range and maybe +1 armor and lowering morphing times for Greter Spire and BL cocoon. This automatically helps the Zerg lategame, breaks the stalemate, gives them more cost efficiency as they can flee much better. More speed + some range are needed for the Broodlord and would lead to interesting battles. Then , rethink the Swarmhost for a midgame viable and interesting choice. And start balancing PDD and Tempests then after the broodlords are viable and not a damn flying brick (as a Protoss player I think that the Tempest damage is out of control). | ||
| ||
