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Didn't post my thoughts yet so after laddering today I guess I'll do so:
These maps are bad. Not just bad, actually, awful. These are the worst set of maps I've EVER played on since WoL. How is it possible you end up with maps in 2015, nearly 5 years after the game has released, that has back rocks, and moreover, huge ridges especially designed for either reapers, tanks, or blink play etc? How can such hugely positional imbalances exist when we have already moved past this stage of the meta game? @_@;;
Honestly, I'd be a lot more rude about this if I could but it really just kind of boggles my mind. I really don't know how we ended up reverting to such a map pool, especially after having one that was rather T favored vs Protoss.
ugh, shrug and sigh is all I can really say to sum up how I feel about this map pool. If I don't qualify for WCS, which is probably a rather low % chance of happening this week, I really feel like I won't play the game very much at all literally due to this map pool.
It is too frustrating as a protoss player and the game has no feeling of enjoyment on these maps... :/
It is very understandable why so many players, and in specific protoss players, are moving on from the game @_@;;
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What happen if you 2rax on secret spring and block the middle :o
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Bot edit.
User was banned for this post.
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On January 13 2015 10:27 las91 wrote:I like Vaani the most, I'm undecided on Secret Spring. The inferno map serves no purpose while deadwing is in the pool and I despise Expedition Lost. THere are way too many difficult/impossible thirds for any matchup for some of these maps, and expedition lost feels like it's from 2011 or something. Overall, vetoeing Secret Spring, Expedition Lost, and Inferno in a week once I get completely sick of them. Show nested quote +On January 13 2015 09:12 The_Templar wrote:On January 13 2015 08:56 Lateral wrote:
Holy shit Inferno Pools is terrible. Who even thought this would be even close to acceptable for the 1v1 map pool? That natural is disgusting.
As a Protoss, it's basically a must-veto. You can't even FFE on that map. Um, I'm pretty sure it's a single double-wide ramp at the natural? It requires 3 large buildings + a pylon to wall off, it's not FFEable
Who s doing FFEs anyway these days?
I mean unless the zerg blindly goes early pool and prays for you are on close position, it should not be much of a problem. At least it should not be much harder than on merry go round or am I missing something?
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Wow, this is the most perfect map pool... The employees at Blizz are truly genius..
Thank you.
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On January 13 2015 17:10 My_Fake_Plastic_Luv wrote:
Wow, this is the most perfect map pool... The employees at Blizz are truly genius..
Thank you.
Yeah I'm a big fan myself. Blizzard clearly loves third bases (sarcasm).
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I hate this "hardcounter" mappool.
Basically Vaani research station is very Z favoured with huge open map they didnt even bother put 2 levels on the map except on the side just to decorate. With almost no terrain to exploit this map feels really boring.
On the other side we have Secret Spring. A lot of narrow chokes and abusive positional play that can be made everywhere with the most narrow choke ever on the middle . clearly T and P favored.
Didn't test Inferno pool so can't say.
Expedition lost is weird but fun.
What do you think guys. Personnally if I were zerg there is no way I want to play on Secret Spring ever.
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On January 13 2015 07:23 Gwavajuice wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2015 05:39 KeksX wrote:
I long for the day that Blizzard let's the proven community map makers do their job.
As a Zerg, I request more vetos. Expedition lost : made by community map maker (algue) Catalena : made by community map maker (timmay) Overgrowth : made by community map maker (EastWindy ) Deadwing : made by community map maker (JessicaSc2) Plus, in season 3 : Foxtrot : made by community map maker (Uvantak ) Merry go round : made by community map maker (Winpark ) King sejong's station : made by community map maker (Str18-02 ) Nimbus : made by community map maker (Icetoad and wrl ) be happy cause the day you were longing for happened a long ago already. But maybe you think all these mapmackers are trash? In that case feel free to open your map editor and give the wonderfull maps that exists in your head...
Hey at least you were snarky in your comment!
Anyway, my point is not that maps should be made by mapmakers and then it's all fine. The decision process on which maps actually get into the pool should also be made by communiy map makers, because just saying "well we didn't make the map, so you can't complain" won't cut it. (Especially if 3 of those maps are old ones)
What I was more referring to is something like a pool of qualified map makers to almost completely take over the design process of the map pool. I.e. group of 10 people from the community work on a pool together with the community, propose that to Blizzard and Blizzard approves/disapproves.
(For example, take top 2 map makers from each Region and let them collaborate. Maps are realllly important so Blizzard should invest a little)
This can, of course, include that one of those 10 guys brings in his own map. But I feel like just having Blizzard do it quietly in their room for the most part is bad for the map pool.
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ive only played the new maps once out of the last 4 games. I guess people are starting to veto it
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On January 13 2015 17:54 KeksX wrote:
Anyway, my point is not that maps should be made by mapmakers and then it's all fine. The decision process on which maps actually get into the pool should also be made by communiy map makers, because just saying "well we didn't make the map, so you can't complain" won't cut it. (Especially if 3 of those maps are old ones)
What I was more referring to is something like a pool of qualified map makers to almost completely take over the design process of the map pool. I.e. group of 10 people from the community work on a pool together with the community, propose that to Blizzard and Blizzard approves/disapproves.
(For example, take top 2 map makers from each Region and let them collaborate. Maps are realllly important so Blizzard should invest a little)
This can, of course, include that one of those 10 guys brings in his own map. But I feel like just having Blizzard do it quietly in their room for the most part is bad for the map pool.
Actually Blizzard should hire certain map makers here ... #Ryan Schutter
But giving the decision process into the hands of the map makers is a bad idea. They are not the ones playing it on a high level. Provide the maps and let pros test those. That's all u can and u should do. Unfortunately no pro is testing afaik. Why would they even bother? Why would Blizzard bother?
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On January 13 2015 18:47 Phaenoman wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2015 17:54 KeksX wrote:
Anyway, my point is not that maps should be made by mapmakers and then it's all fine. The decision process on which maps actually get into the pool should also be made by communiy map makers, because just saying "well we didn't make the map, so you can't complain" won't cut it. (Especially if 3 of those maps are old ones)
What I was more referring to is something like a pool of qualified map makers to almost completely take over the design process of the map pool. I.e. group of 10 people from the community work on a pool together with the community, propose that to Blizzard and Blizzard approves/disapproves.
(For example, take top 2 map makers from each Region and let them collaborate. Maps are realllly important so Blizzard should invest a little)
This can, of course, include that one of those 10 guys brings in his own map. But I feel like just having Blizzard do it quietly in their room for the most part is bad for the map pool. Actually Blizzard should hire certain map makers here ... #Ryan Schutter But giving the decision process into the hands of the map makers is a bad idea. They are not the ones playing it on a high level. Provide the maps and let pros test those. That's all u can and u should do. Unfortunately no pro is testing afaik. Why would they even bother? Why would Blizzard bother?
Maybe they should get like, 10 Koreans and 10 foreigners, and give them a huge selection of maps to choose from (20+?) and have each player "veto" maps, and then see which maps weren't vetoed as much, then use those for the map pool. But that'd be an actually good idea, and it'd show incompetence from Blizzard, so it won't ever happen.
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On January 13 2015 18:47 Phaenoman wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2015 17:54 KeksX wrote:
Anyway, my point is not that maps should be made by mapmakers and then it's all fine. The decision process on which maps actually get into the pool should also be made by communiy map makers, because just saying "well we didn't make the map, so you can't complain" won't cut it. (Especially if 3 of those maps are old ones)
What I was more referring to is something like a pool of qualified map makers to almost completely take over the design process of the map pool. I.e. group of 10 people from the community work on a pool together with the community, propose that to Blizzard and Blizzard approves/disapproves.
(For example, take top 2 map makers from each Region and let them collaborate. Maps are realllly important so Blizzard should invest a little)
This can, of course, include that one of those 10 guys brings in his own map. But I feel like just having Blizzard do it quietly in their room for the most part is bad for the map pool. Actually Blizzard should hire certain map makers here ... #Ryan Schutter But giving the decision process into the hands of the map makers is a bad idea. They are not the ones playing it on a high level. Provide the maps and let pros test those. That's all u can and u should do. Unfortunately no pro is testing afaik. Why would they even bother? Why would Blizzard bother?
Yeah of course they shouldn't do it in solitude either, working pros is a great idea imho. Map makers pick maps, test it with pros, use feedback from community as well as pros' feedback, propose a pool to Blizzard, Blizzard approves and releases the pool at the new season.
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On January 13 2015 18:52 Blargh wrote:
Maybe they should get like, 10 Koreans and 10 foreigners, and give them a huge selection of maps to choose from (20+?) and have each player "veto" maps, and then see which maps weren't vetoed as much, then use those for the map pool. But that'd be an actually good idea, and it'd show incompetence from Blizzard, so it won't ever happen.
I'd say being aware of ur own incompetence can be considered competence in a way. Haha. I would really be interested in the internal map making squad Blizzard has. But maybe it's just a single person, that is actually doing other stuff and is only being asked to do some random maps shortly before new season. And he sits down one evening and creates some maps while watching talk shows. There u go! That's how it's done! New WCS maps with no balancing issues and bug-free. Why would u even pay someone for that? And when that guy is ill for some reason, just have a look into the community maps. There are enough maps for a century of Sc2 seasons.
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How in god's name do you take a third in TvZ on secret spring when they go muta heavy. I had a ring of turrets and mines in my main and third and its just impossible to maneuver in time.
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On January 13 2015 17:54 KeksX wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2015 07:23 Gwavajuice wrote:On January 13 2015 05:39 KeksX wrote:
I long for the day that Blizzard let's the proven community map makers do their job.
As a Zerg, I request more vetos. Expedition lost : made by community map maker (algue) Catalena : made by community map maker (timmay) Overgrowth : made by community map maker (EastWindy ) Deadwing : made by community map maker (JessicaSc2) Plus, in season 3 : Foxtrot : made by community map maker (Uvantak ) Merry go round : made by community map maker (Winpark ) King sejong's station : made by community map maker (Str18-02 ) Nimbus : made by community map maker (Icetoad and wrl ) be happy cause the day you were longing for happened a long ago already. But maybe you think all these mapmackers are trash? In that case feel free to open your map editor and give the wonderfull maps that exists in your head... Hey at least you were snarky in your comment! Anyway, my point is not that maps should be made by mapmakers and then it's all fine. The decision process on which maps actually get into the pool should also be made by communiy map makers, because just saying "well we didn't make the map, so you can't complain" won't cut it. (Especially if 3 of those maps are old ones) What I was more referring to is something like a pool of qualified map makers to almost completely take over the design process of the map pool. I.e. group of 10 people from the community work on a pool together with the community, propose that to Blizzard and Blizzard approves/disapproves. (For example, take top 2 map makers from each Region and let them collaborate. Maps are realllly important so Blizzard should invest a little) This can, of course, include that one of those 10 guys brings in his own map. But I feel like just having Blizzard do it quietly in their room for the most part is bad for the map pool.
yeah but it's kinda happening already, cause all user created maps that ended in the map pool, from ohanna and Cloud kingdom back in the days, were winners or finalist of various map contests. I dare to sayt that Blizzard is eager to use community made maps. It's not the issue at all.
IMHO, the problem is more about community TESTERS than mapmakers. Cause really we don't test shit. Someone started an initiative to test an alternative map pool during season 4 instead of playing dreampool, we even had a chat channel on the servers to find people to play with. But chat channels were empty. cause nobody really bothered to try this new community made map pool. a handfull of people played them against AI and gave limited feedback and that was it.
Look at the maps section in the forums, it's always the same 10 people commenting, and very rarely new maps are really tested out in relevant 1v1 situations, and I don't even talk about having some Grand masters testing them intensively cause this just never happens.
We can't blame Blizzard for our own mistakes nor for the fact that the community is absolutely unable to test maps.
Therefore, the only actual way to have new alternative maps tested is to have the tournaments create and use them. "Communiy" is BS, only pros playing maps for a reward works as a testing routine. Like it was before WCS system that lock the map pool for every tournament. Ofc one could say this decision from Blizzard is bad, but even then not so many people would come out with new maps, it was almost only the GSL creating new maps (sometimes very bad maps, mind you) and other tournaments choosing from these new maps and the ladder maps.
In conclusion, before blaming Blizzard for not listening community's opinion about maps, we should realize that "our opinion" is not a really relevant concept and we should work more on maps testing and custom games.
For example let's add a small tournament to every community map contest (hopefully the LoTV tournament system will alow this easily) to make sure all maps are actually tested and it's not just people basing their vote on a simple screen shot of the map.
If we want Blizzard to take us seriously, we have to start being serious (again)...
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On January 13 2015 19:12 arcane1129 wrote:
How in god's name do you take a third in TvZ on secret spring when they go muta heavy. I had a ring of turrets and mines in my main and third and its just impossible to maneuver in time.
On this map you're not supposed to take 3rd's at all.
Tbh, the map is a nightmare for zergs not for terrans (at least in TvZ). It's so easy to abuse the little ramp of the main.
But in TvP it's a total nightmare for terrans (unless the toss tries to play standard robo into taking a third, which only dumb tosses would do on such a map)
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On January 13 2015 19:12 arcane1129 wrote:
How in god's name do you take a third in TvZ on secret spring when they go muta heavy. I had a ring of turrets and mines in my main and third and its just impossible to maneuver in time.
You don't take a third. You go allin.
In other words: the map is absolutely fucking terrible
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Thx Blizzard for making no third base in this maps
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Ok, so all my 3 vetoes are gone vetoing 3/4 on the new maps .. And I wish we had a 4th veto. GJ Blizzard.
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On January 13 2015 19:15 Gwavajuice wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2015 17:54 KeksX wrote:On January 13 2015 07:23 Gwavajuice wrote:On January 13 2015 05:39 KeksX wrote:
I long for the day that Blizzard let's the proven community map makers do their job.
As a Zerg, I request more vetos. Expedition lost : made by community map maker (algue) Catalena : made by community map maker (timmay) Overgrowth : made by community map maker (EastWindy ) Deadwing : made by community map maker (JessicaSc2) Plus, in season 3 : Foxtrot : made by community map maker (Uvantak ) Merry go round : made by community map maker (Winpark ) King sejong's station : made by community map maker (Str18-02 ) Nimbus : made by community map maker (Icetoad and wrl ) be happy cause the day you were longing for happened a long ago already. But maybe you think all these mapmackers are trash? In that case feel free to open your map editor and give the wonderfull maps that exists in your head... Hey at least you were snarky in your comment! Anyway, my point is not that maps should be made by mapmakers and then it's all fine. The decision process on which maps actually get into the pool should also be made by communiy map makers, because just saying "well we didn't make the map, so you can't complain" won't cut it. (Especially if 3 of those maps are old ones) What I was more referring to is something like a pool of qualified map makers to almost completely take over the design process of the map pool. I.e. group of 10 people from the community work on a pool together with the community, propose that to Blizzard and Blizzard approves/disapproves. (For example, take top 2 map makers from each Region and let them collaborate. Maps are realllly important so Blizzard should invest a little) This can, of course, include that one of those 10 guys brings in his own map. But I feel like just having Blizzard do it quietly in their room for the most part is bad for the map pool. IMHO, the problem is more about community TESTERS than mapmakers. Cause really we don't test shit. Someone started an initiative to test an alternative map pool during season 4 instead of playing dreampool, we even had a chat channel on the servers to find people to play with. But chat channels were empty. cause nobody really bothered to try this new community made map pool. a handfull of people played them against AI and gave limited feedback and that was it. Yes, I did, but as nobody really participated I soon quit putting any attention into it - apparantly nobody was interested in helping the maps in SC2. We'd rather all scream and cry and whine every three months.
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EPT
