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On December 27 2014 17:44 The_Red_Viper wrote:I don't see why mutalisks are more fun to play against than an oracle for example. TBH some of my friends who started playing sc2 were pretty annoyed of "retarded mutalisk balls". But i guess this is very subjective in the end
Mutalisks got retarded when they got the insane regeneration in HotS just because of widow mines.
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On December 27 2014 20:54 404AlphaSquad wrote:Show nested quote +On December 27 2014 17:44 The_Red_Viper wrote:Mutalisks are imo fun to play with and fun to play against. I don't see why mutalisks are more fun to play against than an oracle for example. TBH some of my friends who started playing sc2 were pretty annoyed of "retarded mutalisk balls". But i guess this is very subjective in the end Mutalisks got retarded when they got the insane regeneration in HotS just because of widow mines.
their movement speed got a buff too remember , they are much faster than they were in WoL too no?
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On December 27 2014 20:56 Hadronsbecrazy wrote:Show nested quote +On December 27 2014 20:54 404AlphaSquad wrote:On December 27 2014 17:44 The_Red_Viper wrote:Mutalisks are imo fun to play with and fun to play against. I don't see why mutalisks are more fun to play against than an oracle for example. TBH some of my friends who started playing sc2 were pretty annoyed of "retarded mutalisk balls". But i guess this is very subjective in the end Mutalisks got retarded when they got the insane regeneration in HotS just because of widow mines. their movement speed got a buff too remember , they are much faster than they were in WoL too no?
Merely by 0.25, so from 3.75 to 4. They could just nerf medivac boosts, phoenix speed and mutalisk speed by 0.25 at this point and it would probably only make the game better.
Those relations are the only reasons those sorts of speeds have to be at these exact values. For most micro/combat applications it is a minor factor whether a medivac goes by 4.25 or 4.0, for as long as it isn't 0.5 faster than a mutalisk. But it would take a tiny bit away from the superfast position switching of drops&doom drops and mutalisk clouds, that make the one unit require the other as a counter.
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I wish Blizzard's Sc2 Balance team could have a twitter and communicate about their work on a daily/weekly basis 
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On December 27 2014 22:38 algue wrote:I wish Blizzard's Sc2 Balance team could have a twitter and communicate about their work on a daily/weekly basis
Most of the time they would have nothing to say/discuss with such a regular schedule. But it's quite off topic anyway.
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protoss needs a new core unit really badly.. or are we still gonna use wol comps in lotv?
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On December 27 2014 22:46 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On December 27 2014 22:38 algue wrote:I wish Blizzard's Sc2 Balance team could have a twitter and communicate about their work on a daily/weekly basis Most of the time they would have nothing to say/discuss with such a regular schedule. But it's quite off topic anyway.
A single tweet saying something like "what about a jetpack upgrade for the zealot ?" would give us something to argue about for days.
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On December 27 2014 10:05 ZenithM wrote:Show nested quote +On December 26 2014 13:59 MarlieChurphy wrote:
Archon mode should also have a camera in the corner of the screen somewhere where you can see your ally's screen.
This way you can be macroing and still know what kind of units are fighting, what is dieing, what needs to be built unitwise, what kind of tech you need, if you need defensive structure etc. Also known as using the minimap ;D
Don't be shittin on my good idea
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On December 28 2014 05:38 MarlieChurphy wrote:Show nested quote +On December 27 2014 10:05 ZenithM wrote:On December 26 2014 13:59 MarlieChurphy wrote:
Archon mode should also have a camera in the corner of the screen somewhere where you can see your ally's screen.
This way you can be macroing and still know what kind of units are fighting, what is dieing, what needs to be built unitwise, what kind of tech you need, if you need defensive structure etc. Also known as using the minimap ;D Don't be shittin on my good idea
In all seriousness, the idea itself isn't bad (I'm all for having a better idea of what your ally is looking at), but the intended use you mentioned typically correspond to the kind of infos that are given by good minimap usage :D
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On December 27 2014 22:52 TT1 wrote:
protoss needs a new core unit really badly.. or are we still gonna use wol comps in lotv?
I hope you do...I'm so tired of getting my ass stormed off since Day 1 of WoL in TvP.
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On December 28 2014 07:46 wptlzkwjd wrote:Show nested quote +On December 27 2014 22:52 TT1 wrote:
protoss needs a new core unit really badly.. or are we still gonna use wol comps in lotv? I hope you do...I'm so tired of getting my ass stormed off since Day 1 of WoL in TvP.
![[image loading]](http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/images2/f/ff/Khaydarin_amulet.gif)
Never forget
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Hider wrote: Disagree. I honestly think there is a very strong correlation between whether you enjoy playing a certain unit and playing against it. Mutalisks are imo fun to play with and fun to play against. At least in TvZ (pvz might be a different story). Running around with an Oracle and trying to run away from Marines and attack scv's isn't interesting at all.
I don't know, the Mutalisk can be extremely annoying to play against aswell. Might just be a case of one accepting that the unit exists, since the Mutalisk is such an essential iconic unit of Starcraft.
I think in the end we are all just big bullies and the frustration the opponent is going through correlates to the huge smile on your face.
TheDwf wrote: Increasing the movement speed of the Oracle was a bad idea. It lowered the skill floor of the unit, made it more forgiving for no reason.
In general increasing the speed of a unit makes that unit harder to optimize and thereby increases the skill floor of that unit.
As you wrote however, it makes it so getting the second Oracle makes less sense, since the first one can be essentially everywhere.
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On December 18 2014 04:04 DarkLordOlli wrote:
Protoss needs an early/midgame unit that keeps us alive. Harassing isn't an issue when you can open blink, oracle, warp prism, phoenixes, etc. But what's a real issue is that protoss needs to be able to survive the bridge between gateway units and high tech AoE.
The mothership core is supposed to be that stop-gap towards higher tech. Unfortunately, it's a crappy solution.
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On December 28 2014 10:23 ejozl wrote:Show nested quote + Hider wrote: Disagree. I honestly think there is a very strong correlation between whether you enjoy playing a certain unit and playing against it. Mutalisks are imo fun to play with and fun to play against. At least in TvZ (pvz might be a different story). Running around with an Oracle and trying to run away from Marines and attack scv's isn't interesting at all. I don't know, the Mutalisk can be extremely annoying to play against aswell. Might just be a case of one accepting that the unit exists, since the Mutalisk is such an essential iconic unit of Starcraft. I think in the end we are all just big bullies and the frustration the opponent is going through correlates to the huge smile on your face. Show nested quote +TheDwf wrote: Increasing the movement speed of the Oracle was a bad idea. It lowered the skill floor of the unit, made it more forgiving for no reason. In general increasing the speed of a unit makes that unit harder to optimize and thereby increases the skill floor of that unit. As you wrote however, it makes it so getting the second Oracle makes less sense, since the first one can be essentially everywhere.
One's frustrating, but the other unit is more gimmicky all or nothing - have to specifically counter it or you lose.
Even if mutas catch you off guard in TvZ, rarely is it insanely impactful (still can put you behind). A little different ZvP but still not to the extent a single oracle early game completely wrecking you works. Stupid in the sense you are taking a gamble if you don't blindly prepare for it, especially if you like to play aggressive builds. The Oracle, if you want a "standard" way of playing as T, simply forces you to play passive by the mere threat of it existing. Even DT doesn't do that.
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United States7483 Posts
On December 28 2014 12:06 FabledIntegral wrote:Show nested quote +On December 28 2014 10:23 ejozl wrote: Hider wrote: Disagree. I honestly think there is a very strong correlation between whether you enjoy playing a certain unit and playing against it. Mutalisks are imo fun to play with and fun to play against. At least in TvZ (pvz might be a different story). Running around with an Oracle and trying to run away from Marines and attack scv's isn't interesting at all. I don't know, the Mutalisk can be extremely annoying to play against aswell. Might just be a case of one accepting that the unit exists, since the Mutalisk is such an essential iconic unit of Starcraft. I think in the end we are all just big bullies and the frustration the opponent is going through correlates to the huge smile on your face. TheDwf wrote: Increasing the movement speed of the Oracle was a bad idea. It lowered the skill floor of the unit, made it more forgiving for no reason. In general increasing the speed of a unit makes that unit harder to optimize and thereby increases the skill floor of that unit. As you wrote however, it makes it so getting the second Oracle makes less sense, since the first one can be essentially everywhere. One's frustrating, but the other unit is more gimmicky all or nothing - have to specifically counter it or you lose. Even if mutas catch you off guard in TvZ, rarely is it insanely impactful (still can put you behind). A little different ZvP but still not to the extent a single oracle early game completely wrecking you works. Stupid in the sense you are taking a gamble if you don't blindly prepare for it, especially if you like to play aggressive builds. The Oracle, if you want a "standard" way of playing as T, simply forces you to play passive by the mere threat of it existing. Even DT doesn't do that.
Actually, a muta switch in PvZ can outright win the game if the protoss doesn't have phoenix or stargate tech already. The mutas fly in and kill 20 probes. Yeah it takes 9 mutas, but mutas have way more of a map presence after the first 8 minutes of a game than oracles ever will.
The fact is that the oracle is so frustrating and poorly designed because it's a standalone expensive harasser that isn't durable and can come out early on, and isn't useful in large numbers so it has to be strong in small numbers or useless.
The oracle needs the following change:
Reduce the cost (say 100/100), drop it to 2 supply, reduce the speed back to pre-buff speeds, and reduce the damage output to require 3 ticks to kill a worker or a marine. Increase the shields on the unit so it doesn't die to a single widow mine hit. This makes using it and playing against it more forgiving since the damage is lower but it doesn't die nearly as quickly to a slight mistake, but the speed reduction makes using it properly harder. The reduced cost and supply reduction makes it more justifiable to make more of them. It means the opponent has more time to respond to it since it takes longer to get more than 1 out, but it can still do damage and take map control, and the reduced cost doesn't hamper protoss as much as the current cost does.
Overall, it's a net nerf to the current incarnation of the unit, but in a way that makes it still viable, just less viable as a cheese. The unit would do less damage at a time, but would live longer and have more versatile functions as the game went on. Maybe put the speed buff back onto it in the form of a late game upgrade to help get revelations off.
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On December 28 2014 13:55 Whitewing wrote:Show nested quote +On December 28 2014 12:06 FabledIntegral wrote:On December 28 2014 10:23 ejozl wrote: Hider wrote: Disagree. I honestly think there is a very strong correlation between whether you enjoy playing a certain unit and playing against it. Mutalisks are imo fun to play with and fun to play against. At least in TvZ (pvz might be a different story). Running around with an Oracle and trying to run away from Marines and attack scv's isn't interesting at all. I don't know, the Mutalisk can be extremely annoying to play against aswell. Might just be a case of one accepting that the unit exists, since the Mutalisk is such an essential iconic unit of Starcraft. I think in the end we are all just big bullies and the frustration the opponent is going through correlates to the huge smile on your face. TheDwf wrote: Increasing the movement speed of the Oracle was a bad idea. It lowered the skill floor of the unit, made it more forgiving for no reason. In general increasing the speed of a unit makes that unit harder to optimize and thereby increases the skill floor of that unit. As you wrote however, it makes it so getting the second Oracle makes less sense, since the first one can be essentially everywhere. One's frustrating, but the other unit is more gimmicky all or nothing - have to specifically counter it or you lose. Even if mutas catch you off guard in TvZ, rarely is it insanely impactful (still can put you behind). A little different ZvP but still not to the extent a single oracle early game completely wrecking you works. Stupid in the sense you are taking a gamble if you don't blindly prepare for it, especially if you like to play aggressive builds. The Oracle, if you want a "standard" way of playing as T, simply forces you to play passive by the mere threat of it existing. Even DT doesn't do that. Actually, a muta switch in PvZ can outright win the game if the protoss doesn't have phoenix or stargate tech already. The mutas fly in and kill 20 probes. Yeah it takes 9 mutas, but mutas have way more of a map presence after the first 8 minutes of a game than oracles ever will. The fact is that the oracle is so frustrating and poorly designed because it's a standalone expensive harasser that isn't durable and can come out early on, and isn't useful in large numbers so it has to be strong in small numbers or useless. The oracle needs the following change: Reduce the cost (say 100/100), drop it to 2 supply, reduce the speed back to pre-buff speeds, and reduce the damage output to require 3 ticks to kill a worker or a marine. Increase the shields on the unit so it doesn't die to a single widow mine hit. This makes using it and playing against it more forgiving since the damage is lower but it doesn't die nearly as quickly to a slight mistake, but the speed reduction makes using it properly harder. The reduced cost and supply reduction makes it more justifiable to make more of them. It means the opponent has more time to respond to it since it takes longer to get more than 1 out, but it can still do damage and take map control, and the reduced cost doesn't hamper protoss as much as the current cost does. Overall, it's a net nerf to the current incarnation of the unit, but in a way that makes it still viable, just less viable as a cheese. The unit would do less damage at a time, but would live longer and have more versatile functions as the game went on. Maybe put the speed buff back onto it in the form of a late game upgrade to help get revelations off.
Concerning ZvP, I agree and perhaps could have used words other than "to a lessor extent." The bigger difference is that you can usually tell when they are coming, or at the very least can prepare for them "blindly" without much cost (1 photon cannon in the mineral line and a photon overcharge - you already have the forge). Also easier to tell when they come out - did they completely forego roaches? If you have sentries, you can scout with a hallu phoenix, etc.
Not sure I agree exactly with your balance suggestions, but otherwise share similar sentiments, simply didn't delve into ZvP as much as you just did, with my post.
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United States7483 Posts
On December 28 2014 16:51 FabledIntegral wrote:Show nested quote +On December 28 2014 13:55 Whitewing wrote:On December 28 2014 12:06 FabledIntegral wrote:On December 28 2014 10:23 ejozl wrote: Hider wrote: Disagree. I honestly think there is a very strong correlation between whether you enjoy playing a certain unit and playing against it. Mutalisks are imo fun to play with and fun to play against. At least in TvZ (pvz might be a different story). Running around with an Oracle and trying to run away from Marines and attack scv's isn't interesting at all. I don't know, the Mutalisk can be extremely annoying to play against aswell. Might just be a case of one accepting that the unit exists, since the Mutalisk is such an essential iconic unit of Starcraft. I think in the end we are all just big bullies and the frustration the opponent is going through correlates to the huge smile on your face. TheDwf wrote: Increasing the movement speed of the Oracle was a bad idea. It lowered the skill floor of the unit, made it more forgiving for no reason. In general increasing the speed of a unit makes that unit harder to optimize and thereby increases the skill floor of that unit. As you wrote however, it makes it so getting the second Oracle makes less sense, since the first one can be essentially everywhere. One's frustrating, but the other unit is more gimmicky all or nothing - have to specifically counter it or you lose. Even if mutas catch you off guard in TvZ, rarely is it insanely impactful (still can put you behind). A little different ZvP but still not to the extent a single oracle early game completely wrecking you works. Stupid in the sense you are taking a gamble if you don't blindly prepare for it, especially if you like to play aggressive builds. The Oracle, if you want a "standard" way of playing as T, simply forces you to play passive by the mere threat of it existing. Even DT doesn't do that. Actually, a muta switch in PvZ can outright win the game if the protoss doesn't have phoenix or stargate tech already. The mutas fly in and kill 20 probes. Yeah it takes 9 mutas, but mutas have way more of a map presence after the first 8 minutes of a game than oracles ever will. The fact is that the oracle is so frustrating and poorly designed because it's a standalone expensive harasser that isn't durable and can come out early on, and isn't useful in large numbers so it has to be strong in small numbers or useless. The oracle needs the following change: Reduce the cost (say 100/100), drop it to 2 supply, reduce the speed back to pre-buff speeds, and reduce the damage output to require 3 ticks to kill a worker or a marine. Increase the shields on the unit so it doesn't die to a single widow mine hit. This makes using it and playing against it more forgiving since the damage is lower but it doesn't die nearly as quickly to a slight mistake, but the speed reduction makes using it properly harder. The reduced cost and supply reduction makes it more justifiable to make more of them. It means the opponent has more time to respond to it since it takes longer to get more than 1 out, but it can still do damage and take map control, and the reduced cost doesn't hamper protoss as much as the current cost does. Overall, it's a net nerf to the current incarnation of the unit, but in a way that makes it still viable, just less viable as a cheese. The unit would do less damage at a time, but would live longer and have more versatile functions as the game went on. Maybe put the speed buff back onto it in the form of a late game upgrade to help get revelations off. Concerning ZvP, I agree and perhaps could have used words other than "to a lessor extent." The bigger difference is that you can usually tell when they are coming, or at the very least can prepare for them "blindly" without much cost (1 photon cannon in the mineral line and a photon overcharge - you already have the forge). Also easier to tell when they come out - did they completely forego roaches? If you have sentries, you can scout with a hallu phoenix, etc. Not sure I agree exactly with your balance suggestions, but otherwise share similar sentiments, simply didn't delve into ZvP as much as you just did, with my post.
Eh, one photon cannon plus photon overcharge doesn't do much against mutas, other than prevent immediate death and delay it for a minute. If you don't have phoenix out or 2-3 stargates and a large amount of stalkers, your only choice is to basetrade once mutas hit the field. It's not a fun thing to play against, since nothing protoss has on the ground can deal with mutas. Cannons are awful in comparison to turrets against mutalisks and can't be repaired, and we don't have stim or thors. Blink stalkers aren't good enough, and actually just straight up die to mutas once the muta ball gets reasonably large (say around 15-20 mutalisks). It's not fun to play: either you have phoenix or can get them quickly, in which case the mutas are pretty useless and it forces a dull muta/corrupter game, or else you don't and you basetrade immediately. And you often can't know it's coming until it hits: you can scout and see a spire, infestation pit and hydralisk den morphing, and all you see is roaches. What is your opponent going to make: mutalisks, swarm hosts, infestors, or hydralisks?
The DRG play that was so successful was literally mass roach into mass muta, and it's still not unheard of to see that if the protoss doesn't open stargate. I'd actually say roachless plays are more likely to translate into double upgrade fast ultra games with vipers these days than mutas.
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On December 29 2014 03:24 Whitewing wrote:Show nested quote +On December 28 2014 16:51 FabledIntegral wrote:On December 28 2014 13:55 Whitewing wrote:On December 28 2014 12:06 FabledIntegral wrote:On December 28 2014 10:23 ejozl wrote: Hider wrote: Disagree. I honestly think there is a very strong correlation between whether you enjoy playing a certain unit and playing against it. Mutalisks are imo fun to play with and fun to play against. At least in TvZ (pvz might be a different story). Running around with an Oracle and trying to run away from Marines and attack scv's isn't interesting at all. I don't know, the Mutalisk can be extremely annoying to play against aswell. Might just be a case of one accepting that the unit exists, since the Mutalisk is such an essential iconic unit of Starcraft. I think in the end we are all just big bullies and the frustration the opponent is going through correlates to the huge smile on your face. TheDwf wrote: Increasing the movement speed of the Oracle was a bad idea. It lowered the skill floor of the unit, made it more forgiving for no reason. In general increasing the speed of a unit makes that unit harder to optimize and thereby increases the skill floor of that unit. As you wrote however, it makes it so getting the second Oracle makes less sense, since the first one can be essentially everywhere. One's frustrating, but the other unit is more gimmicky all or nothing - have to specifically counter it or you lose. Even if mutas catch you off guard in TvZ, rarely is it insanely impactful (still can put you behind). A little different ZvP but still not to the extent a single oracle early game completely wrecking you works. Stupid in the sense you are taking a gamble if you don't blindly prepare for it, especially if you like to play aggressive builds. The Oracle, if you want a "standard" way of playing as T, simply forces you to play passive by the mere threat of it existing. Even DT doesn't do that. Actually, a muta switch in PvZ can outright win the game if the protoss doesn't have phoenix or stargate tech already. The mutas fly in and kill 20 probes. Yeah it takes 9 mutas, but mutas have way more of a map presence after the first 8 minutes of a game than oracles ever will. The fact is that the oracle is so frustrating and poorly designed because it's a standalone expensive harasser that isn't durable and can come out early on, and isn't useful in large numbers so it has to be strong in small numbers or useless. The oracle needs the following change: Reduce the cost (say 100/100), drop it to 2 supply, reduce the speed back to pre-buff speeds, and reduce the damage output to require 3 ticks to kill a worker or a marine. Increase the shields on the unit so it doesn't die to a single widow mine hit. This makes using it and playing against it more forgiving since the damage is lower but it doesn't die nearly as quickly to a slight mistake, but the speed reduction makes using it properly harder. The reduced cost and supply reduction makes it more justifiable to make more of them. It means the opponent has more time to respond to it since it takes longer to get more than 1 out, but it can still do damage and take map control, and the reduced cost doesn't hamper protoss as much as the current cost does. Overall, it's a net nerf to the current incarnation of the unit, but in a way that makes it still viable, just less viable as a cheese. The unit would do less damage at a time, but would live longer and have more versatile functions as the game went on. Maybe put the speed buff back onto it in the form of a late game upgrade to help get revelations off. Concerning ZvP, I agree and perhaps could have used words other than "to a lessor extent." The bigger difference is that you can usually tell when they are coming, or at the very least can prepare for them "blindly" without much cost (1 photon cannon in the mineral line and a photon overcharge - you already have the forge). Also easier to tell when they come out - did they completely forego roaches? If you have sentries, you can scout with a hallu phoenix, etc. Not sure I agree exactly with your balance suggestions, but otherwise share similar sentiments, simply didn't delve into ZvP as much as you just did, with my post. Eh, one photon cannon plus photon overcharge doesn't do much against mutas, other than prevent immediate death and delay it for a minute. If you don't have phoenix out or 2-3 stargates and a large amount of stalkers, your only choice is to basetrade once mutas hit the field. It's not a fun thing to play against, since nothing protoss has on the ground can deal with mutas. Cannons are awful in comparison to turrets against mutalisks and can't be repaired, and we don't have stim or thors. Blink stalkers aren't good enough, and actually just straight up die to mutas once the muta ball gets reasonably large (say around 15-20 mutalisks). It's not fun to play: either you have phoenix or can get them quickly, in which case the mutas are pretty useless and it forces a dull muta/corrupter game, or else you don't and you basetrade immediately. And you often can't know it's coming until it hits: you can scout and see a spire, infestation pit and hydralisk den morphing, and all you see is roaches. What is your opponent going to make: mutalisks, swarm hosts, infestors, or hydralisks? The DRG play that was so successful was literally mass roach into mass muta, and it's still not unheard of to see that if the protoss doesn't open stargate. I'd actually say roachless plays are more likely to translate into double upgrade fast ultra games with vipers these days than mutas.
One photon cannon plus overcharge buys the minute time not to lose all your probes - something an oracle will cause on the enemy. You still have all your units, econ, etc. in tact.
Your muta threat is a little silly - there's a reason you don't see mutas in a large amount of games. Agreed that simply blink stalkers suck against the muta threat, but typically given the time mutas hit you can tell when they are coming and you can prepare. Yes, you can be caught "off guard" but it's at a point in the game that it's due to the Protoss's lack of scouting rather than "I didn't blindly prepare."
In the last scenario you mention above, I see no problem with scouting a spire and dropping double stargate - if you see a spire and a Hive morphing you want the stargates anyways simply to prevent a Zerg from going BL. Fast Ultra tech is also handled by stargates. They offer a ton of utility. I don't quite see eye to eye with your analysis of being caught off guard by mutas so easily. Sure, it happens, but I don't feel that we see it happen all that often in games, it's not that strong.
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United States7483 Posts
On December 29 2014 06:12 FabledIntegral wrote:Show nested quote +On December 29 2014 03:24 Whitewing wrote:On December 28 2014 16:51 FabledIntegral wrote:On December 28 2014 13:55 Whitewing wrote:On December 28 2014 12:06 FabledIntegral wrote:On December 28 2014 10:23 ejozl wrote: Hider wrote: Disagree. I honestly think there is a very strong correlation between whether you enjoy playing a certain unit and playing against it. Mutalisks are imo fun to play with and fun to play against. At least in TvZ (pvz might be a different story). Running around with an Oracle and trying to run away from Marines and attack scv's isn't interesting at all. I don't know, the Mutalisk can be extremely annoying to play against aswell. Might just be a case of one accepting that the unit exists, since the Mutalisk is such an essential iconic unit of Starcraft. I think in the end we are all just big bullies and the frustration the opponent is going through correlates to the huge smile on your face. TheDwf wrote: Increasing the movement speed of the Oracle was a bad idea. It lowered the skill floor of the unit, made it more forgiving for no reason. In general increasing the speed of a unit makes that unit harder to optimize and thereby increases the skill floor of that unit. As you wrote however, it makes it so getting the second Oracle makes less sense, since the first one can be essentially everywhere. One's frustrating, but the other unit is more gimmicky all or nothing - have to specifically counter it or you lose. Even if mutas catch you off guard in TvZ, rarely is it insanely impactful (still can put you behind). A little different ZvP but still not to the extent a single oracle early game completely wrecking you works. Stupid in the sense you are taking a gamble if you don't blindly prepare for it, especially if you like to play aggressive builds. The Oracle, if you want a "standard" way of playing as T, simply forces you to play passive by the mere threat of it existing. Even DT doesn't do that. Actually, a muta switch in PvZ can outright win the game if the protoss doesn't have phoenix or stargate tech already. The mutas fly in and kill 20 probes. Yeah it takes 9 mutas, but mutas have way more of a map presence after the first 8 minutes of a game than oracles ever will. The fact is that the oracle is so frustrating and poorly designed because it's a standalone expensive harasser that isn't durable and can come out early on, and isn't useful in large numbers so it has to be strong in small numbers or useless. The oracle needs the following change: Reduce the cost (say 100/100), drop it to 2 supply, reduce the speed back to pre-buff speeds, and reduce the damage output to require 3 ticks to kill a worker or a marine. Increase the shields on the unit so it doesn't die to a single widow mine hit. This makes using it and playing against it more forgiving since the damage is lower but it doesn't die nearly as quickly to a slight mistake, but the speed reduction makes using it properly harder. The reduced cost and supply reduction makes it more justifiable to make more of them. It means the opponent has more time to respond to it since it takes longer to get more than 1 out, but it can still do damage and take map control, and the reduced cost doesn't hamper protoss as much as the current cost does. Overall, it's a net nerf to the current incarnation of the unit, but in a way that makes it still viable, just less viable as a cheese. The unit would do less damage at a time, but would live longer and have more versatile functions as the game went on. Maybe put the speed buff back onto it in the form of a late game upgrade to help get revelations off. Concerning ZvP, I agree and perhaps could have used words other than "to a lessor extent." The bigger difference is that you can usually tell when they are coming, or at the very least can prepare for them "blindly" without much cost (1 photon cannon in the mineral line and a photon overcharge - you already have the forge). Also easier to tell when they come out - did they completely forego roaches? If you have sentries, you can scout with a hallu phoenix, etc. Not sure I agree exactly with your balance suggestions, but otherwise share similar sentiments, simply didn't delve into ZvP as much as you just did, with my post. Eh, one photon cannon plus photon overcharge doesn't do much against mutas, other than prevent immediate death and delay it for a minute. If you don't have phoenix out or 2-3 stargates and a large amount of stalkers, your only choice is to basetrade once mutas hit the field. It's not a fun thing to play against, since nothing protoss has on the ground can deal with mutas. Cannons are awful in comparison to turrets against mutalisks and can't be repaired, and we don't have stim or thors. Blink stalkers aren't good enough, and actually just straight up die to mutas once the muta ball gets reasonably large (say around 15-20 mutalisks). It's not fun to play: either you have phoenix or can get them quickly, in which case the mutas are pretty useless and it forces a dull muta/corrupter game, or else you don't and you basetrade immediately. And you often can't know it's coming until it hits: you can scout and see a spire, infestation pit and hydralisk den morphing, and all you see is roaches. What is your opponent going to make: mutalisks, swarm hosts, infestors, or hydralisks? The DRG play that was so successful was literally mass roach into mass muta, and it's still not unheard of to see that if the protoss doesn't open stargate. I'd actually say roachless plays are more likely to translate into double upgrade fast ultra games with vipers these days than mutas. One photon cannon plus overcharge buys the minute time not to lose all your probes - something an oracle will cause on the enemy. You still have all your units, econ, etc. in tact. Your muta threat is a little silly - there's a reason you don't see mutas in a large amount of games. Agreed that simply blink stalkers suck against the muta threat, but typically given the time mutas hit you can tell when they are coming and you can prepare. Yes, you can be caught "off guard" but it's at a point in the game that it's due to the Protoss's lack of scouting rather than "I didn't blindly prepare." In the last scenario you mention above, I see no problem with scouting a spire and dropping double stargate - if you see a spire and a Hive morphing you want the stargates anyways simply to prevent a Zerg from going BL. Fast Ultra tech is also handled by stargates. They offer a ton of utility. I don't quite see eye to eye with your analysis of being caught off guard by mutas so easily. Sure, it happens, but I don't feel that we see it happen all that often in games, it's not that strong.
Right, you don't see mass muta much because players typically pre-empt it. They either have phoenix, or threaten with a large enough army so the zerg can't risk a base trade with a muta switch. Doesn't make it fun to play against or make it less game ending. Oracles, even cheesy oracles, often accomplish nothing because the terran had marines in his mineral lines. That doesn't change the fact that it's not fun to play against. I'm not arguing balance, I'm just saying that the idea that mutas are a fun unit to play against in PvZ is ridiculous. It's either frustrating or dull. It doesn't promote interesting or enjoyable interactions.
You can deal with a muta switch, just like you can deal with oracles. If oracles were as strong as people imply they are, you'd see oracle rushes in half of all games: but you don't see that. Instead, it's an occasional build to keep the opponent guessing and stop them from playing greedy. But my complaint isn't their strength, it's how downright annoying they are to play against. Unit design should not be fun for only one player. There are plenty of other unit interactions that are great, like ghost vs. high templar.
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EPT
