|
On December 29 2014 16:27 Whitewing wrote:Show nested quote +On December 29 2014 06:12 FabledIntegral wrote:On December 29 2014 03:24 Whitewing wrote:On December 28 2014 16:51 FabledIntegral wrote:On December 28 2014 13:55 Whitewing wrote:On December 28 2014 12:06 FabledIntegral wrote:On December 28 2014 10:23 ejozl wrote: Hider wrote: Disagree. I honestly think there is a very strong correlation between whether you enjoy playing a certain unit and playing against it. Mutalisks are imo fun to play with and fun to play against. At least in TvZ (pvz might be a different story). Running around with an Oracle and trying to run away from Marines and attack scv's isn't interesting at all. I don't know, the Mutalisk can be extremely annoying to play against aswell. Might just be a case of one accepting that the unit exists, since the Mutalisk is such an essential iconic unit of Starcraft. I think in the end we are all just big bullies and the frustration the opponent is going through correlates to the huge smile on your face. TheDwf wrote: Increasing the movement speed of the Oracle was a bad idea. It lowered the skill floor of the unit, made it more forgiving for no reason. In general increasing the speed of a unit makes that unit harder to optimize and thereby increases the skill floor of that unit. As you wrote however, it makes it so getting the second Oracle makes less sense, since the first one can be essentially everywhere. One's frustrating, but the other unit is more gimmicky all or nothing - have to specifically counter it or you lose. Even if mutas catch you off guard in TvZ, rarely is it insanely impactful (still can put you behind). A little different ZvP but still not to the extent a single oracle early game completely wrecking you works. Stupid in the sense you are taking a gamble if you don't blindly prepare for it, especially if you like to play aggressive builds. The Oracle, if you want a "standard" way of playing as T, simply forces you to play passive by the mere threat of it existing. Even DT doesn't do that. Actually, a muta switch in PvZ can outright win the game if the protoss doesn't have phoenix or stargate tech already. The mutas fly in and kill 20 probes. Yeah it takes 9 mutas, but mutas have way more of a map presence after the first 8 minutes of a game than oracles ever will. The fact is that the oracle is so frustrating and poorly designed because it's a standalone expensive harasser that isn't durable and can come out early on, and isn't useful in large numbers so it has to be strong in small numbers or useless. The oracle needs the following change: Reduce the cost (say 100/100), drop it to 2 supply, reduce the speed back to pre-buff speeds, and reduce the damage output to require 3 ticks to kill a worker or a marine. Increase the shields on the unit so it doesn't die to a single widow mine hit. This makes using it and playing against it more forgiving since the damage is lower but it doesn't die nearly as quickly to a slight mistake, but the speed reduction makes using it properly harder. The reduced cost and supply reduction makes it more justifiable to make more of them. It means the opponent has more time to respond to it since it takes longer to get more than 1 out, but it can still do damage and take map control, and the reduced cost doesn't hamper protoss as much as the current cost does. Overall, it's a net nerf to the current incarnation of the unit, but in a way that makes it still viable, just less viable as a cheese. The unit would do less damage at a time, but would live longer and have more versatile functions as the game went on. Maybe put the speed buff back onto it in the form of a late game upgrade to help get revelations off. Concerning ZvP, I agree and perhaps could have used words other than "to a lessor extent." The bigger difference is that you can usually tell when they are coming, or at the very least can prepare for them "blindly" without much cost (1 photon cannon in the mineral line and a photon overcharge - you already have the forge). Also easier to tell when they come out - did they completely forego roaches? If you have sentries, you can scout with a hallu phoenix, etc. Not sure I agree exactly with your balance suggestions, but otherwise share similar sentiments, simply didn't delve into ZvP as much as you just did, with my post. Eh, one photon cannon plus photon overcharge doesn't do much against mutas, other than prevent immediate death and delay it for a minute. If you don't have phoenix out or 2-3 stargates and a large amount of stalkers, your only choice is to basetrade once mutas hit the field. It's not a fun thing to play against, since nothing protoss has on the ground can deal with mutas. Cannons are awful in comparison to turrets against mutalisks and can't be repaired, and we don't have stim or thors. Blink stalkers aren't good enough, and actually just straight up die to mutas once the muta ball gets reasonably large (say around 15-20 mutalisks). It's not fun to play: either you have phoenix or can get them quickly, in which case the mutas are pretty useless and it forces a dull muta/corrupter game, or else you don't and you basetrade immediately. And you often can't know it's coming until it hits: you can scout and see a spire, infestation pit and hydralisk den morphing, and all you see is roaches. What is your opponent going to make: mutalisks, swarm hosts, infestors, or hydralisks? The DRG play that was so successful was literally mass roach into mass muta, and it's still not unheard of to see that if the protoss doesn't open stargate. I'd actually say roachless plays are more likely to translate into double upgrade fast ultra games with vipers these days than mutas. One photon cannon plus overcharge buys the minute time not to lose all your probes - something an oracle will cause on the enemy. You still have all your units, econ, etc. in tact. Your muta threat is a little silly - there's a reason you don't see mutas in a large amount of games. Agreed that simply blink stalkers suck against the muta threat, but typically given the time mutas hit you can tell when they are coming and you can prepare. Yes, you can be caught "off guard" but it's at a point in the game that it's due to the Protoss's lack of scouting rather than "I didn't blindly prepare." In the last scenario you mention above, I see no problem with scouting a spire and dropping double stargate - if you see a spire and a Hive morphing you want the stargates anyways simply to prevent a Zerg from going BL. Fast Ultra tech is also handled by stargates. They offer a ton of utility. I don't quite see eye to eye with your analysis of being caught off guard by mutas so easily. Sure, it happens, but I don't feel that we see it happen all that often in games, it's not that strong. Right, you don't see mass muta much because players typically pre-empt it. They either have phoenix, or threaten with a large enough army so the zerg can't risk a base trade with a muta switch. Doesn't make it fun to play against or make it less game ending. Oracles, even cheesy oracles, often accomplish nothing because the terran had marines in his mineral lines. That doesn't change the fact that it's not fun to play against. I'm not arguing balance, I'm just saying that the idea that mutas are a fun unit to play against in PvZ is ridiculous. It's either frustrating or dull. It doesn't promote interesting or enjoyable interactions. You can deal with a muta switch, just like you can deal with oracles. If oracles were as strong as people imply they are, you'd see oracle rushes in half of all games: but you don't see that. Instead, it's an occasional build to keep the opponent guessing and stop them from playing greedy. But my complaint isn't their strength, it's how downright annoying they are to play against. Unit design should not be fun for only one player. There are plenty of other unit interactions that are great, like ghost vs. high templar.
I think it's a matter of preference. The simple fact that you can prepare adequately for mutas preemptively makes it not a big deal to me. Oracles work in a different way - you don't prepare for them because you scout it in time and put up adequate defences and then proceed to outplay your opponent. You blindly prepare because of the threat at an insanely early stage of the game.
And I personally loathe HT vs Ghost and think it's probably one of the absolute worst unit interactions in the game. In fact, I'd say it could possible be my LEAST favorite unit interactions in the game against each other (specific unit matchup at least - I think SH is overall the absolute worst unit). When I think of fun unit interaction, I think of baneling vs marines, chargelot/archon vs MMM, ling/infestor vs MMM, etc. I actually don't even mind phoenix vs muta/corrupter...
I don't think I've built a Ghost in TvP in my last 200+ games in that matchup... 
|
United States7483 Posts
On December 30 2014 14:53 FabledIntegral wrote:Show nested quote +On December 29 2014 16:27 Whitewing wrote:On December 29 2014 06:12 FabledIntegral wrote:On December 29 2014 03:24 Whitewing wrote:On December 28 2014 16:51 FabledIntegral wrote:On December 28 2014 13:55 Whitewing wrote:On December 28 2014 12:06 FabledIntegral wrote:On December 28 2014 10:23 ejozl wrote: Hider wrote: Disagree. I honestly think there is a very strong correlation between whether you enjoy playing a certain unit and playing against it. Mutalisks are imo fun to play with and fun to play against. At least in TvZ (pvz might be a different story). Running around with an Oracle and trying to run away from Marines and attack scv's isn't interesting at all. I don't know, the Mutalisk can be extremely annoying to play against aswell. Might just be a case of one accepting that the unit exists, since the Mutalisk is such an essential iconic unit of Starcraft. I think in the end we are all just big bullies and the frustration the opponent is going through correlates to the huge smile on your face. TheDwf wrote: Increasing the movement speed of the Oracle was a bad idea. It lowered the skill floor of the unit, made it more forgiving for no reason. In general increasing the speed of a unit makes that unit harder to optimize and thereby increases the skill floor of that unit. As you wrote however, it makes it so getting the second Oracle makes less sense, since the first one can be essentially everywhere. One's frustrating, but the other unit is more gimmicky all or nothing - have to specifically counter it or you lose. Even if mutas catch you off guard in TvZ, rarely is it insanely impactful (still can put you behind). A little different ZvP but still not to the extent a single oracle early game completely wrecking you works. Stupid in the sense you are taking a gamble if you don't blindly prepare for it, especially if you like to play aggressive builds. The Oracle, if you want a "standard" way of playing as T, simply forces you to play passive by the mere threat of it existing. Even DT doesn't do that. Actually, a muta switch in PvZ can outright win the game if the protoss doesn't have phoenix or stargate tech already. The mutas fly in and kill 20 probes. Yeah it takes 9 mutas, but mutas have way more of a map presence after the first 8 minutes of a game than oracles ever will. The fact is that the oracle is so frustrating and poorly designed because it's a standalone expensive harasser that isn't durable and can come out early on, and isn't useful in large numbers so it has to be strong in small numbers or useless. The oracle needs the following change: Reduce the cost (say 100/100), drop it to 2 supply, reduce the speed back to pre-buff speeds, and reduce the damage output to require 3 ticks to kill a worker or a marine. Increase the shields on the unit so it doesn't die to a single widow mine hit. This makes using it and playing against it more forgiving since the damage is lower but it doesn't die nearly as quickly to a slight mistake, but the speed reduction makes using it properly harder. The reduced cost and supply reduction makes it more justifiable to make more of them. It means the opponent has more time to respond to it since it takes longer to get more than 1 out, but it can still do damage and take map control, and the reduced cost doesn't hamper protoss as much as the current cost does. Overall, it's a net nerf to the current incarnation of the unit, but in a way that makes it still viable, just less viable as a cheese. The unit would do less damage at a time, but would live longer and have more versatile functions as the game went on. Maybe put the speed buff back onto it in the form of a late game upgrade to help get revelations off. Concerning ZvP, I agree and perhaps could have used words other than "to a lessor extent." The bigger difference is that you can usually tell when they are coming, or at the very least can prepare for them "blindly" without much cost (1 photon cannon in the mineral line and a photon overcharge - you already have the forge). Also easier to tell when they come out - did they completely forego roaches? If you have sentries, you can scout with a hallu phoenix, etc. Not sure I agree exactly with your balance suggestions, but otherwise share similar sentiments, simply didn't delve into ZvP as much as you just did, with my post. Eh, one photon cannon plus photon overcharge doesn't do much against mutas, other than prevent immediate death and delay it for a minute. If you don't have phoenix out or 2-3 stargates and a large amount of stalkers, your only choice is to basetrade once mutas hit the field. It's not a fun thing to play against, since nothing protoss has on the ground can deal with mutas. Cannons are awful in comparison to turrets against mutalisks and can't be repaired, and we don't have stim or thors. Blink stalkers aren't good enough, and actually just straight up die to mutas once the muta ball gets reasonably large (say around 15-20 mutalisks). It's not fun to play: either you have phoenix or can get them quickly, in which case the mutas are pretty useless and it forces a dull muta/corrupter game, or else you don't and you basetrade immediately. And you often can't know it's coming until it hits: you can scout and see a spire, infestation pit and hydralisk den morphing, and all you see is roaches. What is your opponent going to make: mutalisks, swarm hosts, infestors, or hydralisks? The DRG play that was so successful was literally mass roach into mass muta, and it's still not unheard of to see that if the protoss doesn't open stargate. I'd actually say roachless plays are more likely to translate into double upgrade fast ultra games with vipers these days than mutas. One photon cannon plus overcharge buys the minute time not to lose all your probes - something an oracle will cause on the enemy. You still have all your units, econ, etc. in tact. Your muta threat is a little silly - there's a reason you don't see mutas in a large amount of games. Agreed that simply blink stalkers suck against the muta threat, but typically given the time mutas hit you can tell when they are coming and you can prepare. Yes, you can be caught "off guard" but it's at a point in the game that it's due to the Protoss's lack of scouting rather than "I didn't blindly prepare." In the last scenario you mention above, I see no problem with scouting a spire and dropping double stargate - if you see a spire and a Hive morphing you want the stargates anyways simply to prevent a Zerg from going BL. Fast Ultra tech is also handled by stargates. They offer a ton of utility. I don't quite see eye to eye with your analysis of being caught off guard by mutas so easily. Sure, it happens, but I don't feel that we see it happen all that often in games, it's not that strong. Right, you don't see mass muta much because players typically pre-empt it. They either have phoenix, or threaten with a large enough army so the zerg can't risk a base trade with a muta switch. Doesn't make it fun to play against or make it less game ending. Oracles, even cheesy oracles, often accomplish nothing because the terran had marines in his mineral lines. That doesn't change the fact that it's not fun to play against. I'm not arguing balance, I'm just saying that the idea that mutas are a fun unit to play against in PvZ is ridiculous. It's either frustrating or dull. It doesn't promote interesting or enjoyable interactions. You can deal with a muta switch, just like you can deal with oracles. If oracles were as strong as people imply they are, you'd see oracle rushes in half of all games: but you don't see that. Instead, it's an occasional build to keep the opponent guessing and stop them from playing greedy. But my complaint isn't their strength, it's how downright annoying they are to play against. Unit design should not be fun for only one player. There are plenty of other unit interactions that are great, like ghost vs. high templar. I think it's a matter of preference. The simple fact that you can prepare adequately for mutas preemptively makes it not a big deal to me. Oracles work in a different way - you don't prepare for them because you scout it in time and put up adequate defences and then proceed to outplay your opponent. You blindly prepare because of the threat at an insanely early stage of the game. And I personally loathe HT vs Ghost and think it's probably one of the absolute worst unit interactions in the game. In fact, I'd say it could possible be my LEAST favorite unit interactions in the game against each other (specific unit matchup at least - I think SH is overall the absolute worst unit). When I think of fun unit interaction, I think of baneling vs marines, chargelot/archon vs MMM, ling/infestor vs MMM, etc. I actually don't even mind phoenix vs muta/corrupter... I don't think I've built a Ghost in TvP in my last 200+ games in that matchup...
Chargelot/archon vs. MMM is lame. You don't actually do anything with the chareglots and archons except attack move, then pull back after you realize you're being kited too well. There's no real micro for the protoss there, that's a lame interaction. Same goes for banelings vs. marines: you run the banes at them and the micro is all in the hands of the terran. The reason that one is fine is because the zerg's micro is being used on zerglings to wrap around marines and on mutalisks to pick off key units while the banes keep the marines running. Thus, it's Muta/ling/bane vs. bio, not pure bane vs. bio, that is good.
Ghost vs. High Templar has micro on both sides: the High Templar have to nuke the terran army with storms, and the terran needs to neutralize your high templar. Thus you get into an intense micro war on both sides with templar trying to feedback ghosts to protect other templar while ghosts snipe and EMP templar to stop the storms (and feedbacks). To protect ghosts, terran will often send small balls of marines and marauders forwards to snipe them. The unit ball is small enough that protoss can't use a storm usefully. Then protoss tries to pull the templar back and blink in stalkers or use colossi to kill the unit ball, which backs off. Both players have to manage multiple groups of units in order to win the micro war, which makes it a good interaction that's skill intensive on both sides. That's a good interaction. It's even better when you realize that both players often introduce additional elements to this one micro war: protoss will use warp prisms to protect the templar, so then terran tries to zone out the prisms with vikings, or have ghosts in position to spam EMP when they try to unload. Protoss will use small groups of blink stalkers to poach forwards to snipe ghosts and prevent ghosts from leading the pack, and Terran uses marauders to force them back. Terran cloaks and can EMP flank, Protoss can storm flank, the interaction is great, for the same reason that muta/ling/bane vs. bio+mine is a good interaction: there are high micro requirements on both players to make that engagement work.
Phoenix vs. muta/corrupter by contrast is lame. Protoss can't use the phoenix aggressively because of threat of a counter (phoenix can't wipe out bases) and for fear of a single fungal ruining the game. Micro'ing phoenix is also easy: the only difficulty is in multi-tasking your macro with it. During the engagement, you mostly just spam move commands in different places, while all the zerg has to do is position the corrupters in between the phoenix and the mutas while the mutas kill everything else. Neither player has a particularly difficult time controlling the interaction, and there's no counter play potential from protoss, or additional options really. Zerg can add infestors, vipers to yank phoenix into the corrupter/muta, and work on a tech switch for when the mutas aren't useful. Protoss has to keep making phoenix until there's no amount of muta/corrupter that can win because nothing they have on the ground is useful vs. mutas once the count gets large.
|
On December 28 2014 07:41 ZenithM wrote:Show nested quote +On December 28 2014 05:38 MarlieChurphy wrote:On December 27 2014 10:05 ZenithM wrote:On December 26 2014 13:59 MarlieChurphy wrote:
Archon mode should also have a camera in the corner of the screen somewhere where you can see your ally's screen.
This way you can be macroing and still know what kind of units are fighting, what is dieing, what needs to be built unitwise, what kind of tech you need, if you need defensive structure etc. Also known as using the minimap ;D Don't be shittin on my good idea In all seriousness, the idea itself isn't bad (I'm all for having a better idea of what your ally is looking at), but the intended use you mentioned typically correspond to the kind of infos that are given by good minimap usage :D
So ideally a good player must pay attention to the minimap and stop his macroing every couple of seconds to look at what his ally is scouting and fighting assuming that you are constantly gving him things to harass and scout with. So in other words, sort of guesstimating when to look.
What a good team would do is be on skype and communicate constantly, which is great.
So why not take it to the next level and just give you a camera. Both audio, visual, and overall minimap senses. More senses the better.
|
On December 30 2014 16:18 Whitewing wrote:Show nested quote +On December 30 2014 14:53 FabledIntegral wrote:On December 29 2014 16:27 Whitewing wrote:On December 29 2014 06:12 FabledIntegral wrote:On December 29 2014 03:24 Whitewing wrote:On December 28 2014 16:51 FabledIntegral wrote:On December 28 2014 13:55 Whitewing wrote:On December 28 2014 12:06 FabledIntegral wrote:On December 28 2014 10:23 ejozl wrote: Hider wrote: Disagree. I honestly think there is a very strong correlation between whether you enjoy playing a certain unit and playing against it. Mutalisks are imo fun to play with and fun to play against. At least in TvZ (pvz might be a different story). Running around with an Oracle and trying to run away from Marines and attack scv's isn't interesting at all. I don't know, the Mutalisk can be extremely annoying to play against aswell. Might just be a case of one accepting that the unit exists, since the Mutalisk is such an essential iconic unit of Starcraft. I think in the end we are all just big bullies and the frustration the opponent is going through correlates to the huge smile on your face. TheDwf wrote: Increasing the movement speed of the Oracle was a bad idea. It lowered the skill floor of the unit, made it more forgiving for no reason. In general increasing the speed of a unit makes that unit harder to optimize and thereby increases the skill floor of that unit. As you wrote however, it makes it so getting the second Oracle makes less sense, since the first one can be essentially everywhere. One's frustrating, but the other unit is more gimmicky all or nothing - have to specifically counter it or you lose. Even if mutas catch you off guard in TvZ, rarely is it insanely impactful (still can put you behind). A little different ZvP but still not to the extent a single oracle early game completely wrecking you works. Stupid in the sense you are taking a gamble if you don't blindly prepare for it, especially if you like to play aggressive builds. The Oracle, if you want a "standard" way of playing as T, simply forces you to play passive by the mere threat of it existing. Even DT doesn't do that. Actually, a muta switch in PvZ can outright win the game if the protoss doesn't have phoenix or stargate tech already. The mutas fly in and kill 20 probes. Yeah it takes 9 mutas, but mutas have way more of a map presence after the first 8 minutes of a game than oracles ever will. The fact is that the oracle is so frustrating and poorly designed because it's a standalone expensive harasser that isn't durable and can come out early on, and isn't useful in large numbers so it has to be strong in small numbers or useless. The oracle needs the following change: Reduce the cost (say 100/100), drop it to 2 supply, reduce the speed back to pre-buff speeds, and reduce the damage output to require 3 ticks to kill a worker or a marine. Increase the shields on the unit so it doesn't die to a single widow mine hit. This makes using it and playing against it more forgiving since the damage is lower but it doesn't die nearly as quickly to a slight mistake, but the speed reduction makes using it properly harder. The reduced cost and supply reduction makes it more justifiable to make more of them. It means the opponent has more time to respond to it since it takes longer to get more than 1 out, but it can still do damage and take map control, and the reduced cost doesn't hamper protoss as much as the current cost does. Overall, it's a net nerf to the current incarnation of the unit, but in a way that makes it still viable, just less viable as a cheese. The unit would do less damage at a time, but would live longer and have more versatile functions as the game went on. Maybe put the speed buff back onto it in the form of a late game upgrade to help get revelations off. Concerning ZvP, I agree and perhaps could have used words other than "to a lessor extent." The bigger difference is that you can usually tell when they are coming, or at the very least can prepare for them "blindly" without much cost (1 photon cannon in the mineral line and a photon overcharge - you already have the forge). Also easier to tell when they come out - did they completely forego roaches? If you have sentries, you can scout with a hallu phoenix, etc. Not sure I agree exactly with your balance suggestions, but otherwise share similar sentiments, simply didn't delve into ZvP as much as you just did, with my post. Eh, one photon cannon plus photon overcharge doesn't do much against mutas, other than prevent immediate death and delay it for a minute. If you don't have phoenix out or 2-3 stargates and a large amount of stalkers, your only choice is to basetrade once mutas hit the field. It's not a fun thing to play against, since nothing protoss has on the ground can deal with mutas. Cannons are awful in comparison to turrets against mutalisks and can't be repaired, and we don't have stim or thors. Blink stalkers aren't good enough, and actually just straight up die to mutas once the muta ball gets reasonably large (say around 15-20 mutalisks). It's not fun to play: either you have phoenix or can get them quickly, in which case the mutas are pretty useless and it forces a dull muta/corrupter game, or else you don't and you basetrade immediately. And you often can't know it's coming until it hits: you can scout and see a spire, infestation pit and hydralisk den morphing, and all you see is roaches. What is your opponent going to make: mutalisks, swarm hosts, infestors, or hydralisks? The DRG play that was so successful was literally mass roach into mass muta, and it's still not unheard of to see that if the protoss doesn't open stargate. I'd actually say roachless plays are more likely to translate into double upgrade fast ultra games with vipers these days than mutas. One photon cannon plus overcharge buys the minute time not to lose all your probes - something an oracle will cause on the enemy. You still have all your units, econ, etc. in tact. Your muta threat is a little silly - there's a reason you don't see mutas in a large amount of games. Agreed that simply blink stalkers suck against the muta threat, but typically given the time mutas hit you can tell when they are coming and you can prepare. Yes, you can be caught "off guard" but it's at a point in the game that it's due to the Protoss's lack of scouting rather than "I didn't blindly prepare." In the last scenario you mention above, I see no problem with scouting a spire and dropping double stargate - if you see a spire and a Hive morphing you want the stargates anyways simply to prevent a Zerg from going BL. Fast Ultra tech is also handled by stargates. They offer a ton of utility. I don't quite see eye to eye with your analysis of being caught off guard by mutas so easily. Sure, it happens, but I don't feel that we see it happen all that often in games, it's not that strong. Right, you don't see mass muta much because players typically pre-empt it. They either have phoenix, or threaten with a large enough army so the zerg can't risk a base trade with a muta switch. Doesn't make it fun to play against or make it less game ending. Oracles, even cheesy oracles, often accomplish nothing because the terran had marines in his mineral lines. That doesn't change the fact that it's not fun to play against. I'm not arguing balance, I'm just saying that the idea that mutas are a fun unit to play against in PvZ is ridiculous. It's either frustrating or dull. It doesn't promote interesting or enjoyable interactions. You can deal with a muta switch, just like you can deal with oracles. If oracles were as strong as people imply they are, you'd see oracle rushes in half of all games: but you don't see that. Instead, it's an occasional build to keep the opponent guessing and stop them from playing greedy. But my complaint isn't their strength, it's how downright annoying they are to play against. Unit design should not be fun for only one player. There are plenty of other unit interactions that are great, like ghost vs. high templar. I think it's a matter of preference. The simple fact that you can prepare adequately for mutas preemptively makes it not a big deal to me. Oracles work in a different way - you don't prepare for them because you scout it in time and put up adequate defences and then proceed to outplay your opponent. You blindly prepare because of the threat at an insanely early stage of the game. And I personally loathe HT vs Ghost and think it's probably one of the absolute worst unit interactions in the game. In fact, I'd say it could possible be my LEAST favorite unit interactions in the game against each other (specific unit matchup at least - I think SH is overall the absolute worst unit). When I think of fun unit interaction, I think of baneling vs marines, chargelot/archon vs MMM, ling/infestor vs MMM, etc. I actually don't even mind phoenix vs muta/corrupter... I don't think I've built a Ghost in TvP in my last 200+ games in that matchup... Chargelot/archon vs. MMM is lame. You don't actually do anything with the chareglots and archons except attack move, then pull back after you realize you're being kited too well. There's no real micro for the protoss there, that's a lame interaction. Same goes for banelings vs. marines: you run the banes at them and the micro is all in the hands of the terran. The reason that one is fine is because the zerg's micro is being used on zerglings to wrap around marines and on mutalisks to pick off key units while the banes keep the marines running. Thus, it's Muta/ling/bane vs. bio, not pure bane vs. bio, that is good. Ghost vs. High Templar has micro on both sides: the High Templar have to nuke the terran army with storms, and the terran needs to neutralize your high templar. Thus you get into an intense micro war on both sides with templar trying to feedback ghosts to protect other templar while ghosts snipe and EMP templar to stop the storms (and feedbacks). To protect ghosts, terran will often send small balls of marines and marauders forwards to snipe them. The unit ball is small enough that protoss can't use a storm usefully. Then protoss tries to pull the templar back and blink in stalkers or use colossi to kill the unit ball, which backs off. Both players have to manage multiple groups of units in order to win the micro war, which makes it a good interaction that's skill intensive on both sides. That's a good interaction. It's even better when you realize that both players often introduce additional elements to this one micro war: protoss will use warp prisms to protect the templar, so then terran tries to zone out the prisms with vikings, or have ghosts in position to spam EMP when they try to unload. Protoss will use small groups of blink stalkers to poach forwards to snipe ghosts and prevent ghosts from leading the pack, and Terran uses marauders to force them back. Terran cloaks and can EMP flank, Protoss can storm flank, the interaction is great, for the same reason that muta/ling/bane vs. bio+mine is a good interaction: there are high micro requirements on both players to make that engagement work. Phoenix vs. muta/corrupter by contrast is lame. Protoss can't use the phoenix aggressively because of threat of a counter (phoenix can't wipe out bases) and for fear of a single fungal ruining the game. Micro'ing phoenix is also easy: the only difficulty is in multi-tasking your macro with it. During the engagement, you mostly just spam move commands in different places, while all the zerg has to do is position the corrupters in between the phoenix and the mutas while the mutas kill everything else. Neither player has a particularly difficult time controlling the interaction, and there's no counter play potential from protoss, or additional options really. Zerg can add infestors, vipers to yank phoenix into the corrupter/muta, and work on a tech switch for when the mutas aren't useful. Protoss has to keep making phoenix until there's no amount of muta/corrupter that can win because nothing they have on the ground is useful vs. mutas once the count gets large.
You can keep incessantly trying to argue every single point I make, but the manner in which you're doing it is getting quite old. It's simply a difference in preference. I currently cannot think of a single type of unit interaction I despise more than HT vs Ghost, simple as that.
Ironically, you try to correct me on MMM vs. muta/ling/bane, as opposed to simply marine vs bane, and then you do the exact same thing with you Ghost vs HT scenario. It's like you're trying to be confrontational.
|
United States7483 Posts
On December 31 2014 12:53 FabledIntegral wrote:Show nested quote +On December 30 2014 16:18 Whitewing wrote:On December 30 2014 14:53 FabledIntegral wrote:On December 29 2014 16:27 Whitewing wrote:On December 29 2014 06:12 FabledIntegral wrote:On December 29 2014 03:24 Whitewing wrote:On December 28 2014 16:51 FabledIntegral wrote:On December 28 2014 13:55 Whitewing wrote:On December 28 2014 12:06 FabledIntegral wrote:On December 28 2014 10:23 ejozl wrote:
[quote]
I don't know, the Mutalisk can be extremely annoying to play against aswell. Might just be a case of one accepting that the unit exists, since the Mutalisk is such an essential iconic unit of Starcraft.
I think in the end we are all just big bullies and the frustration the opponent is going through correlates to the huge smile on your face.
[quote]
In general increasing the speed of a unit makes that unit harder to optimize and thereby increases the skill floor of that unit.
As you wrote however, it makes it so getting the second Oracle makes less sense, since the first one can be essentially everywhere. One's frustrating, but the other unit is more gimmicky all or nothing - have to specifically counter it or you lose. Even if mutas catch you off guard in TvZ, rarely is it insanely impactful (still can put you behind). A little different ZvP but still not to the extent a single oracle early game completely wrecking you works. Stupid in the sense you are taking a gamble if you don't blindly prepare for it, especially if you like to play aggressive builds. The Oracle, if you want a "standard" way of playing as T, simply forces you to play passive by the mere threat of it existing. Even DT doesn't do that. Actually, a muta switch in PvZ can outright win the game if the protoss doesn't have phoenix or stargate tech already. The mutas fly in and kill 20 probes. Yeah it takes 9 mutas, but mutas have way more of a map presence after the first 8 minutes of a game than oracles ever will. The fact is that the oracle is so frustrating and poorly designed because it's a standalone expensive harasser that isn't durable and can come out early on, and isn't useful in large numbers so it has to be strong in small numbers or useless. The oracle needs the following change: Reduce the cost (say 100/100), drop it to 2 supply, reduce the speed back to pre-buff speeds, and reduce the damage output to require 3 ticks to kill a worker or a marine. Increase the shields on the unit so it doesn't die to a single widow mine hit. This makes using it and playing against it more forgiving since the damage is lower but it doesn't die nearly as quickly to a slight mistake, but the speed reduction makes using it properly harder. The reduced cost and supply reduction makes it more justifiable to make more of them. It means the opponent has more time to respond to it since it takes longer to get more than 1 out, but it can still do damage and take map control, and the reduced cost doesn't hamper protoss as much as the current cost does. Overall, it's a net nerf to the current incarnation of the unit, but in a way that makes it still viable, just less viable as a cheese. The unit would do less damage at a time, but would live longer and have more versatile functions as the game went on. Maybe put the speed buff back onto it in the form of a late game upgrade to help get revelations off. Concerning ZvP, I agree and perhaps could have used words other than "to a lessor extent." The bigger difference is that you can usually tell when they are coming, or at the very least can prepare for them "blindly" without much cost (1 photon cannon in the mineral line and a photon overcharge - you already have the forge). Also easier to tell when they come out - did they completely forego roaches? If you have sentries, you can scout with a hallu phoenix, etc. Not sure I agree exactly with your balance suggestions, but otherwise share similar sentiments, simply didn't delve into ZvP as much as you just did, with my post. Eh, one photon cannon plus photon overcharge doesn't do much against mutas, other than prevent immediate death and delay it for a minute. If you don't have phoenix out or 2-3 stargates and a large amount of stalkers, your only choice is to basetrade once mutas hit the field. It's not a fun thing to play against, since nothing protoss has on the ground can deal with mutas. Cannons are awful in comparison to turrets against mutalisks and can't be repaired, and we don't have stim or thors. Blink stalkers aren't good enough, and actually just straight up die to mutas once the muta ball gets reasonably large (say around 15-20 mutalisks). It's not fun to play: either you have phoenix or can get them quickly, in which case the mutas are pretty useless and it forces a dull muta/corrupter game, or else you don't and you basetrade immediately. And you often can't know it's coming until it hits: you can scout and see a spire, infestation pit and hydralisk den morphing, and all you see is roaches. What is your opponent going to make: mutalisks, swarm hosts, infestors, or hydralisks? The DRG play that was so successful was literally mass roach into mass muta, and it's still not unheard of to see that if the protoss doesn't open stargate. I'd actually say roachless plays are more likely to translate into double upgrade fast ultra games with vipers these days than mutas. One photon cannon plus overcharge buys the minute time not to lose all your probes - something an oracle will cause on the enemy. You still have all your units, econ, etc. in tact. Your muta threat is a little silly - there's a reason you don't see mutas in a large amount of games. Agreed that simply blink stalkers suck against the muta threat, but typically given the time mutas hit you can tell when they are coming and you can prepare. Yes, you can be caught "off guard" but it's at a point in the game that it's due to the Protoss's lack of scouting rather than "I didn't blindly prepare." In the last scenario you mention above, I see no problem with scouting a spire and dropping double stargate - if you see a spire and a Hive morphing you want the stargates anyways simply to prevent a Zerg from going BL. Fast Ultra tech is also handled by stargates. They offer a ton of utility. I don't quite see eye to eye with your analysis of being caught off guard by mutas so easily. Sure, it happens, but I don't feel that we see it happen all that often in games, it's not that strong. Right, you don't see mass muta much because players typically pre-empt it. They either have phoenix, or threaten with a large enough army so the zerg can't risk a base trade with a muta switch. Doesn't make it fun to play against or make it less game ending. Oracles, even cheesy oracles, often accomplish nothing because the terran had marines in his mineral lines. That doesn't change the fact that it's not fun to play against. I'm not arguing balance, I'm just saying that the idea that mutas are a fun unit to play against in PvZ is ridiculous. It's either frustrating or dull. It doesn't promote interesting or enjoyable interactions. You can deal with a muta switch, just like you can deal with oracles. If oracles were as strong as people imply they are, you'd see oracle rushes in half of all games: but you don't see that. Instead, it's an occasional build to keep the opponent guessing and stop them from playing greedy. But my complaint isn't their strength, it's how downright annoying they are to play against. Unit design should not be fun for only one player. There are plenty of other unit interactions that are great, like ghost vs. high templar. I think it's a matter of preference. The simple fact that you can prepare adequately for mutas preemptively makes it not a big deal to me. Oracles work in a different way - you don't prepare for them because you scout it in time and put up adequate defences and then proceed to outplay your opponent. You blindly prepare because of the threat at an insanely early stage of the game. And I personally loathe HT vs Ghost and think it's probably one of the absolute worst unit interactions in the game. In fact, I'd say it could possible be my LEAST favorite unit interactions in the game against each other (specific unit matchup at least - I think SH is overall the absolute worst unit). When I think of fun unit interaction, I think of baneling vs marines, chargelot/archon vs MMM, ling/infestor vs MMM, etc. I actually don't even mind phoenix vs muta/corrupter... I don't think I've built a Ghost in TvP in my last 200+ games in that matchup... Chargelot/archon vs. MMM is lame. You don't actually do anything with the chareglots and archons except attack move, then pull back after you realize you're being kited too well. There's no real micro for the protoss there, that's a lame interaction. Same goes for banelings vs. marines: you run the banes at them and the micro is all in the hands of the terran. The reason that one is fine is because the zerg's micro is being used on zerglings to wrap around marines and on mutalisks to pick off key units while the banes keep the marines running. Thus, it's Muta/ling/bane vs. bio, not pure bane vs. bio, that is good. Ghost vs. High Templar has micro on both sides: the High Templar have to nuke the terran army with storms, and the terran needs to neutralize your high templar. Thus you get into an intense micro war on both sides with templar trying to feedback ghosts to protect other templar while ghosts snipe and EMP templar to stop the storms (and feedbacks). To protect ghosts, terran will often send small balls of marines and marauders forwards to snipe them. The unit ball is small enough that protoss can't use a storm usefully. Then protoss tries to pull the templar back and blink in stalkers or use colossi to kill the unit ball, which backs off. Both players have to manage multiple groups of units in order to win the micro war, which makes it a good interaction that's skill intensive on both sides. That's a good interaction. It's even better when you realize that both players often introduce additional elements to this one micro war: protoss will use warp prisms to protect the templar, so then terran tries to zone out the prisms with vikings, or have ghosts in position to spam EMP when they try to unload. Protoss will use small groups of blink stalkers to poach forwards to snipe ghosts and prevent ghosts from leading the pack, and Terran uses marauders to force them back. Terran cloaks and can EMP flank, Protoss can storm flank, the interaction is great, for the same reason that muta/ling/bane vs. bio+mine is a good interaction: there are high micro requirements on both players to make that engagement work. Phoenix vs. muta/corrupter by contrast is lame. Protoss can't use the phoenix aggressively because of threat of a counter (phoenix can't wipe out bases) and for fear of a single fungal ruining the game. Micro'ing phoenix is also easy: the only difficulty is in multi-tasking your macro with it. During the engagement, you mostly just spam move commands in different places, while all the zerg has to do is position the corrupters in between the phoenix and the mutas while the mutas kill everything else. Neither player has a particularly difficult time controlling the interaction, and there's no counter play potential from protoss, or additional options really. Zerg can add infestors, vipers to yank phoenix into the corrupter/muta, and work on a tech switch for when the mutas aren't useful. Protoss has to keep making phoenix until there's no amount of muta/corrupter that can win because nothing they have on the ground is useful vs. mutas once the count gets large. You can keep incessantly trying to argue every single point I make, but the manner in which you're doing it is getting quite old. It's simply a difference in preference. I currently cannot think of a single type of unit interaction I despise more than HT vs Ghost, simple as that. Ironically, you try to correct me on MMM vs. muta/ling/bane, as opposed to simply marine vs bane, and then you do the exact same thing with you Ghost vs HT scenario. It's like you're trying to be confrontational.
The difference exists because you actually sometimes do see pure marines splitting vs a lot of banes with no mutas or lings, wheras you will never see just ghosts vs. just templar.
And yeah, it is preference, but you haven't explained why ghost vs. templar is a bad interaction or dull, while I've at least attempted to defend my definition of a good and bad interaction. We can leave out the ad hominems too, attack the argument, not me for 'being confrontational'. You made statements and I disagreed. If your final argument is "I just don't like it" then fine, but that's not helpful to a discussion regarding unit design and interactions. You're allowed to not like it, but if it's just preference and you have no other reasons for it, then I don't know why you brought it up in the first place.
To bring it full circle: oracles as designed are currently bad because there isn't much terran can do about it in terms of actual control. Either he figured out it was coming or blindly prepared for it, or he didn't. There's no micro he can do to deal with it, there's no clever tactics. He can burrow a mine and insta-kill it (which is mostly on the protoss to not fuck it up), and he can leave marines in his mineral line. That's about it. It's bad because it's all on the protoss to control it well, terran can't out-skill him. PvP is similar, although the speed buff on the oracle actually made expanding outrageously difficult again, after a brief period of 1 gate expand being viable. PvZ the zerg either has defenses in place or doesn't, but it's not so bad because it's almost impossible for an oracle to do game ending damage if the zerg isn't asleep.
|
cant they just add the damn reaver in?
|
On December 31 2014 13:12 Whitewing wrote:Show nested quote +On December 31 2014 12:53 FabledIntegral wrote:On December 30 2014 16:18 Whitewing wrote:On December 30 2014 14:53 FabledIntegral wrote:On December 29 2014 16:27 Whitewing wrote:On December 29 2014 06:12 FabledIntegral wrote:On December 29 2014 03:24 Whitewing wrote:On December 28 2014 16:51 FabledIntegral wrote:On December 28 2014 13:55 Whitewing wrote:On December 28 2014 12:06 FabledIntegral wrote:
[quote]
One's frustrating, but the other unit is more gimmicky all or nothing - have to specifically counter it or you lose.
Even if mutas catch you off guard in TvZ, rarely is it insanely impactful (still can put you behind). A little different ZvP but still not to the extent a single oracle early game completely wrecking you works. Stupid in the sense you are taking a gamble if you don't blindly prepare for it, especially if you like to play aggressive builds. The Oracle, if you want a "standard" way of playing as T, simply forces you to play passive by the mere threat of it existing. Even DT doesn't do that. Actually, a muta switch in PvZ can outright win the game if the protoss doesn't have phoenix or stargate tech already. The mutas fly in and kill 20 probes. Yeah it takes 9 mutas, but mutas have way more of a map presence after the first 8 minutes of a game than oracles ever will. The fact is that the oracle is so frustrating and poorly designed because it's a standalone expensive harasser that isn't durable and can come out early on, and isn't useful in large numbers so it has to be strong in small numbers or useless. The oracle needs the following change: Reduce the cost (say 100/100), drop it to 2 supply, reduce the speed back to pre-buff speeds, and reduce the damage output to require 3 ticks to kill a worker or a marine. Increase the shields on the unit so it doesn't die to a single widow mine hit. This makes using it and playing against it more forgiving since the damage is lower but it doesn't die nearly as quickly to a slight mistake, but the speed reduction makes using it properly harder. The reduced cost and supply reduction makes it more justifiable to make more of them. It means the opponent has more time to respond to it since it takes longer to get more than 1 out, but it can still do damage and take map control, and the reduced cost doesn't hamper protoss as much as the current cost does. Overall, it's a net nerf to the current incarnation of the unit, but in a way that makes it still viable, just less viable as a cheese. The unit would do less damage at a time, but would live longer and have more versatile functions as the game went on. Maybe put the speed buff back onto it in the form of a late game upgrade to help get revelations off. Concerning ZvP, I agree and perhaps could have used words other than "to a lessor extent." The bigger difference is that you can usually tell when they are coming, or at the very least can prepare for them "blindly" without much cost (1 photon cannon in the mineral line and a photon overcharge - you already have the forge). Also easier to tell when they come out - did they completely forego roaches? If you have sentries, you can scout with a hallu phoenix, etc. Not sure I agree exactly with your balance suggestions, but otherwise share similar sentiments, simply didn't delve into ZvP as much as you just did, with my post. Eh, one photon cannon plus photon overcharge doesn't do much against mutas, other than prevent immediate death and delay it for a minute. If you don't have phoenix out or 2-3 stargates and a large amount of stalkers, your only choice is to basetrade once mutas hit the field. It's not a fun thing to play against, since nothing protoss has on the ground can deal with mutas. Cannons are awful in comparison to turrets against mutalisks and can't be repaired, and we don't have stim or thors. Blink stalkers aren't good enough, and actually just straight up die to mutas once the muta ball gets reasonably large (say around 15-20 mutalisks). It's not fun to play: either you have phoenix or can get them quickly, in which case the mutas are pretty useless and it forces a dull muta/corrupter game, or else you don't and you basetrade immediately. And you often can't know it's coming until it hits: you can scout and see a spire, infestation pit and hydralisk den morphing, and all you see is roaches. What is your opponent going to make: mutalisks, swarm hosts, infestors, or hydralisks? The DRG play that was so successful was literally mass roach into mass muta, and it's still not unheard of to see that if the protoss doesn't open stargate. I'd actually say roachless plays are more likely to translate into double upgrade fast ultra games with vipers these days than mutas. One photon cannon plus overcharge buys the minute time not to lose all your probes - something an oracle will cause on the enemy. You still have all your units, econ, etc. in tact. Your muta threat is a little silly - there's a reason you don't see mutas in a large amount of games. Agreed that simply blink stalkers suck against the muta threat, but typically given the time mutas hit you can tell when they are coming and you can prepare. Yes, you can be caught "off guard" but it's at a point in the game that it's due to the Protoss's lack of scouting rather than "I didn't blindly prepare." In the last scenario you mention above, I see no problem with scouting a spire and dropping double stargate - if you see a spire and a Hive morphing you want the stargates anyways simply to prevent a Zerg from going BL. Fast Ultra tech is also handled by stargates. They offer a ton of utility. I don't quite see eye to eye with your analysis of being caught off guard by mutas so easily. Sure, it happens, but I don't feel that we see it happen all that often in games, it's not that strong. Right, you don't see mass muta much because players typically pre-empt it. They either have phoenix, or threaten with a large enough army so the zerg can't risk a base trade with a muta switch. Doesn't make it fun to play against or make it less game ending. Oracles, even cheesy oracles, often accomplish nothing because the terran had marines in his mineral lines. That doesn't change the fact that it's not fun to play against. I'm not arguing balance, I'm just saying that the idea that mutas are a fun unit to play against in PvZ is ridiculous. It's either frustrating or dull. It doesn't promote interesting or enjoyable interactions. You can deal with a muta switch, just like you can deal with oracles. If oracles were as strong as people imply they are, you'd see oracle rushes in half of all games: but you don't see that. Instead, it's an occasional build to keep the opponent guessing and stop them from playing greedy. But my complaint isn't their strength, it's how downright annoying they are to play against. Unit design should not be fun for only one player. There are plenty of other unit interactions that are great, like ghost vs. high templar. I think it's a matter of preference. The simple fact that you can prepare adequately for mutas preemptively makes it not a big deal to me. Oracles work in a different way - you don't prepare for them because you scout it in time and put up adequate defences and then proceed to outplay your opponent. You blindly prepare because of the threat at an insanely early stage of the game. And I personally loathe HT vs Ghost and think it's probably one of the absolute worst unit interactions in the game. In fact, I'd say it could possible be my LEAST favorite unit interactions in the game against each other (specific unit matchup at least - I think SH is overall the absolute worst unit). When I think of fun unit interaction, I think of baneling vs marines, chargelot/archon vs MMM, ling/infestor vs MMM, etc. I actually don't even mind phoenix vs muta/corrupter... I don't think I've built a Ghost in TvP in my last 200+ games in that matchup... Chargelot/archon vs. MMM is lame. You don't actually do anything with the chareglots and archons except attack move, then pull back after you realize you're being kited too well. There's no real micro for the protoss there, that's a lame interaction. Same goes for banelings vs. marines: you run the banes at them and the micro is all in the hands of the terran. The reason that one is fine is because the zerg's micro is being used on zerglings to wrap around marines and on mutalisks to pick off key units while the banes keep the marines running. Thus, it's Muta/ling/bane vs. bio, not pure bane vs. bio, that is good. Ghost vs. High Templar has micro on both sides: the High Templar have to nuke the terran army with storms, and the terran needs to neutralize your high templar. Thus you get into an intense micro war on both sides with templar trying to feedback ghosts to protect other templar while ghosts snipe and EMP templar to stop the storms (and feedbacks). To protect ghosts, terran will often send small balls of marines and marauders forwards to snipe them. The unit ball is small enough that protoss can't use a storm usefully. Then protoss tries to pull the templar back and blink in stalkers or use colossi to kill the unit ball, which backs off. Both players have to manage multiple groups of units in order to win the micro war, which makes it a good interaction that's skill intensive on both sides. That's a good interaction. It's even better when you realize that both players often introduce additional elements to this one micro war: protoss will use warp prisms to protect the templar, so then terran tries to zone out the prisms with vikings, or have ghosts in position to spam EMP when they try to unload. Protoss will use small groups of blink stalkers to poach forwards to snipe ghosts and prevent ghosts from leading the pack, and Terran uses marauders to force them back. Terran cloaks and can EMP flank, Protoss can storm flank, the interaction is great, for the same reason that muta/ling/bane vs. bio+mine is a good interaction: there are high micro requirements on both players to make that engagement work. Phoenix vs. muta/corrupter by contrast is lame. Protoss can't use the phoenix aggressively because of threat of a counter (phoenix can't wipe out bases) and for fear of a single fungal ruining the game. Micro'ing phoenix is also easy: the only difficulty is in multi-tasking your macro with it. During the engagement, you mostly just spam move commands in different places, while all the zerg has to do is position the corrupters in between the phoenix and the mutas while the mutas kill everything else. Neither player has a particularly difficult time controlling the interaction, and there's no counter play potential from protoss, or additional options really. Zerg can add infestors, vipers to yank phoenix into the corrupter/muta, and work on a tech switch for when the mutas aren't useful. Protoss has to keep making phoenix until there's no amount of muta/corrupter that can win because nothing they have on the ground is useful vs. mutas once the count gets large. You can keep incessantly trying to argue every single point I make, but the manner in which you're doing it is getting quite old. It's simply a difference in preference. I currently cannot think of a single type of unit interaction I despise more than HT vs Ghost, simple as that. Ironically, you try to correct me on MMM vs. muta/ling/bane, as opposed to simply marine vs bane, and then you do the exact same thing with you Ghost vs HT scenario. It's like you're trying to be confrontational. The difference exists because you actually sometimes do see pure marines splitting vs a lot of banes with no mutas or lings, wheras you will never see just ghosts vs. just templar. And yeah, it is preference, but you haven't explained why ghost vs. templar is a bad interaction or dull, while I've at least attempted to defend my definition of a good and bad interaction. We can leave out the ad hominems too, attack the argument, not me for 'being confrontational'. You made statements and I disagreed. If your final argument is "I just don't like it" then fine, but that's not helpful to a discussion regarding unit design and interactions. You're allowed to not like it, but if it's just preference and you have no other reasons for it, then I don't know why you brought it up in the first place. To bring it full circle: oracles as designed are currently bad because there isn't much terran can do about it in terms of actual control. Either he figured out it was coming or blindly prepared for it, or he didn't. There's no micro he can do to deal with it, there's no clever tactics. He can burrow a mine and insta-kill it (which is mostly on the protoss to not fuck it up), and he can leave marines in his mineral line. That's about it. It's bad because it's all on the protoss to control it well, terran can't out-skill him.
You definitely see pure HT vs Ghost in some scenarios, specifically where both sides are leading with the unit in order to attempt to pick off the other.
Ghost vs HT suck because the how the units counter each other - snipe/feedback is just a "click the other unit and kill it" spell. The dance you mention exists, but the dance itself is what makes the game so dumb. You dance back and forth endlessly without engaging, which is terribly boring to play and watch, in my opinion. Despite the unit interactions, it turns into a big deathball vs deathball outcome, something majority of the other unit compositions just mentioned do not actually cause.
Something like phoenix vs muta/corrupter is entirely different and highly micro dependent, nearly the opposite of what you're stating happens. The phoenix attempt to consistently dance around the corrupters in order to hit the mutas and keep the muta count down, so they can't accomplish anything. Zerg is consequently forced to keep spending gas on mutas instead of teching up like you mentioned. There is an insane amount of micro involved on both sides, as the Protoss has to prevent engaging the corrupters and keep constant tabs on the Phoenix to avoid losing them, while the Zerg has to manage two different unit speeds while doing damage or fall behind.
|
What is this even about? Phoenix vs muta/corruptor is probably as much micro intensive as MMMVG vs protoss late game death ball when u have to macro and multitask at the same time, although id give an edge to the second example because i think controlling 4 different types of unit is a lot harder than just moving phoenixes. 
|
Czech Republic12129 Posts
On December 31 2014 17:41 FanaticCZ wrote:What is this even about? Phoenix vs muta/corruptor is probably as much micro intensive as MMMVG vs protoss late game death ball when u have to macro and multitask at the same time, although id give an edge to the second example because i think controlling 4 different types of unit is a lot harder than just moving phoenixes.
And it is idiotic and stupid from Protoss side since there is nothing you can do except build more phoenixes. Where Zerg has vipers(pulling phoenixes into muta-corruptor) and fungal. It is not much, but there is at least something.
It is the opposite of oracle. There is nothing you can do to maximize damage of an oracle or defending against oracle. Compare Oracle to Banshee and you see the difference. With my control I am not able to fight against marines with banshee, because I cannot micro it(also I don't play Terran, so I don't know how to properly step the banshee ,-)). But it differs me(probably silver Terran) and better player. Now talk about oracle. I send it against 5 marines. Win. I send it against 6 marines... Now how about Parting, Zest, sOs, MC, HuK(top 3 control!!!!). They send it against 5 marines and win, they send it against 6 marines and lose. No difference but they are for sure better players than I 
|
On December 31 2014 19:28 deacon.frost wrote:Show nested quote +On December 31 2014 17:41 FanaticCZ wrote:What is this even about? Phoenix vs muta/corruptor is probably as much micro intensive as MMMVG vs protoss late game death ball when u have to macro and multitask at the same time, although id give an edge to the second example because i think controlling 4 different types of unit is a lot harder than just moving phoenixes. And it is idiotic and stupid from Protoss side since there is nothing you can do except build more phoenixes. Where Zerg has vipers(pulling phoenixes into muta-corruptor) and fungal. It is not much, but there is at least something. It is the opposite of oracle. There is nothing you can do to maximize damage of an oracle or defending against oracle. Compare Oracle to Banshee and you see the difference. With my control I am not able to fight against marines with banshee, because I cannot micro it(also I don't play Terran, so I don't know how to properly step the banshee ,-)). But it differs me(probably silver Terran) and better player. Now talk about oracle. I send it against 5 marines. Win. I send it against 6 marines... Now how about Parting, Zest, sOs, MC, HuK(top 3 control!!!!). They send it against 5 marines and win, they send it against 6 marines and lose. No difference but they are for sure better players than I
Well there is no denying that. The only difference that u can see with the Oracle is how many workers pros can kill thx to their control, target fire etc compared to normal players. But that 5/6 marines rule is bullshit.
|
Czech Republic12129 Posts
On December 31 2014 19:39 FanaticCZ wrote:Show nested quote +On December 31 2014 19:28 deacon.frost wrote:On December 31 2014 17:41 FanaticCZ wrote:What is this even about? Phoenix vs muta/corruptor is probably as much micro intensive as MMMVG vs protoss late game death ball when u have to macro and multitask at the same time, although id give an edge to the second example because i think controlling 4 different types of unit is a lot harder than just moving phoenixes. And it is idiotic and stupid from Protoss side since there is nothing you can do except build more phoenixes. Where Zerg has vipers(pulling phoenixes into muta-corruptor) and fungal. It is not much, but there is at least something. It is the opposite of oracle. There is nothing you can do to maximize damage of an oracle or defending against oracle. Compare Oracle to Banshee and you see the difference. With my control I am not able to fight against marines with banshee, because I cannot micro it(also I don't play Terran, so I don't know how to properly step the banshee ,-)). But it differs me(probably silver Terran) and better player. Now talk about oracle. I send it against 5 marines. Win. I send it against 6 marines... Now how about Parting, Zest, sOs, MC, HuK(top 3 control!!!!). They send it against 5 marines and win, they send it against 6 marines and lose. No difference but they are for sure better players than I Well there is no denying that. The only difference that u can see with the Oracle is how many workers pros can kill thx to their control, target fire etc compared to normal players. But that 5/6 marines rule is bullshit.
That is the problem. Some units are boring and, well, a-move. Oracle vs marines, chargelot-archon composition, phoenixes against muta-corruptor(and probably more, but since I play other races rarely and badly I will talk about P compositions). If we can eliminate these a-move situations(e.g. giving protoss more options to defend against mutalisks than "build more phoenixes", give terran some options to out micro oracle) the game will be more enjoyable to watch because... well, we all love insane micro from godly pro players, don't we?
|
I still blame muta regeneration for all of this. In WoL two good storms wrecked muta flocks so that they couldnt fight for another three minutes how red they were.
|
On December 31 2014 11:07 MarlieChurphy wrote:Show nested quote +On December 28 2014 07:41 ZenithM wrote:On December 28 2014 05:38 MarlieChurphy wrote:On December 27 2014 10:05 ZenithM wrote:On December 26 2014 13:59 MarlieChurphy wrote:
Archon mode should also have a camera in the corner of the screen somewhere where you can see your ally's screen.
This way you can be macroing and still know what kind of units are fighting, what is dieing, what needs to be built unitwise, what kind of tech you need, if you need defensive structure etc. Also known as using the minimap ;D Don't be shittin on my good idea In all seriousness, the idea itself isn't bad (I'm all for having a better idea of what your ally is looking at), but the intended use you mentioned typically correspond to the kind of infos that are given by good minimap usage :D So ideally a good player must pay attention to the minimap and stop his macroing every couple of seconds to look at what his ally is scouting and fighting assuming that you are constantly gving him things to harass and scout with. So in other words, sort of guesstimating when to look. What a good team would do is be on skype and communicate constantly, which is great. So why not take it to the next level and just give you a camera. Both audio, visual, and overall minimap senses. More senses the better.
It's the same for classic 2v2. Why not give you a second screen there?
I personally think it's interesting that you have to communicate with your ally to know when and how to react to things (or be really good with your minimap to compensate for a lack of communication, I know it's not always practical to type in the middle of a game if you don't have voice chat capabilities).
It would be nice already though in 2v2 if you could jump super quickly (like, with a hotkey) to your ally screen to see what he's talking about and/or help him deal with difficult micro.
|
On January 01 2015 02:00 FanaticCZ wrote:
I still blame muta regeneration for all of this. In WoL two good storms wrecked muta flocks so that they couldnt fight for another three minutes how red they were.
Yes Mutalisk speed buff and health regeneration were needed because of widow mines and widow mines were needed just because of tanks beeing unviable against many Mutalisks which can snipe them every time... then phoenix had to be buffed so they have more range (upgraded) and speed than any Zerg air which makes Z(Air)vP almost useless unless you can do it in a big big switch and surprise your opponent.
|
On January 01 2015 02:21 TrumpetWilli wrote:Show nested quote +On January 01 2015 02:00 FanaticCZ wrote:
I still blame muta regeneration for all of this. In WoL two good storms wrecked muta flocks so that they couldnt fight for another three minutes how red they were. Yes Mutalisk speed buff and health regeneration were needed because of widow mines and widow mines were needed just because of tanks beeing unviable against many Mutalisks which can snipe them every time... then phoenix had to be buffed so they have more range (upgraded) and speed than any Zerg air which makes Z(Air)vP almost useless unless you can do it in a big big switch and surprise your opponent.
Idk...i still think that a speed buff wouldve been enough.
|
Whoever said that banes vs MMM are not a microed unit has never played ZvT at a decent level, you need to split the banes just like they split their marines otherwise a big blob of them go after 2 marines at a time wasting efficiency ect, you need to split them off in varying numbers to deal with the marine clumps.
|
On January 01 2015 04:50 Ovid wrote:
Whoever said that banes vs MMM are not a microed unit has never played ZvT at a decent level, you need to split the banes just like they split their marines otherwise a big blob of them go after 2 marines at a time wasting efficiency ect, you need to split them off in varying numbers to deal with the marine clumps.
I don't believe that's correct, because there is no overkill only one bane will go off on a marine, others won't because they have already worked out that it's dead. What you are experiencing is probably just the split marines not dying and shooting banes.
|
On January 01 2015 06:23 Dapper_Cad wrote:Show nested quote +On January 01 2015 04:50 Ovid wrote:
Whoever said that banes vs MMM are not a microed unit has never played ZvT at a decent level, you need to split the banes just like they split their marines otherwise a big blob of them go after 2 marines at a time wasting efficiency ect, you need to split them off in varying numbers to deal with the marine clumps. I don't believe that's correct, because there is no overkill only one bane will go off on a marine, others won't because they have already worked out that it's dead. What you are experiencing is probably just the split marines not dying and shooting banes.
No, high level ZvT you have a lot of micro to do as Z, you need to make sure Banelings are detonating on the largest clumps of marines and zerglings are getting behind the marines / mauraders to prevent the Terran from constantly splitting his units up. Otherwise every terran would just a move then control click his marines, pull them back and let the mauraders tank all baneling shots.
edit: also 2 banelings shots to kill a marine, and it's all about efficiency, why detonate 2 banelings for a single marine when you could detonate 2 banelings for a clump of 5-6 marines instead?
|
On January 01 2015 06:23 Dapper_Cad wrote:Show nested quote +On January 01 2015 04:50 Ovid wrote:
Whoever said that banes vs MMM are not a microed unit has never played ZvT at a decent level, you need to split the banes just like they split their marines otherwise a big blob of them go after 2 marines at a time wasting efficiency ect, you need to split them off in varying numbers to deal with the marine clumps. I don't believe that's correct, because there is no overkill only one bane will go off on a marine, others won't because they have already worked out that it's dead. What you are experiencing is probably just the split marines not dying and shooting banes.
It takes two banes to kill a combat shield marine, I don't mean a big blob go "off" on 2 marines, I said they go after 2 marines and waste time they could be chasing other larger clumps and so they don't die to the shooting.
|
On January 01 2015 06:46 Pursuit_ wrote:Show nested quote +On January 01 2015 06:23 Dapper_Cad wrote:On January 01 2015 04:50 Ovid wrote:
Whoever said that banes vs MMM are not a microed unit has never played ZvT at a decent level, you need to split the banes just like they split their marines otherwise a big blob of them go after 2 marines at a time wasting efficiency ect, you need to split them off in varying numbers to deal with the marine clumps. I don't believe that's correct, because there is no overkill only one bane will go off on a marine, others won't because they have already worked out that it's dead. What you are experiencing is probably just the split marines not dying and shooting banes. No, high level ZvT you have a lot of micro to do as Z, you need to make sure Banelings are detonating on the largest clumps of marines and zerglings are getting behind the marines / mauraders to prevent the Terran from constantly splitting his units up. Otherwise every terran would just a move then control click his marines, pull them back and let the mauraders tank all baneling shots. edit: also 2 banelings shots to kill a marine, and it's all about efficiency, why detonate 2 banelings for a single marine when you could detonate 2 banelings for a clump of 5-6 marines instead?
Ahh apologies on the 1 bane to kill a marine, it could very well be two.
However you shouldn't assume I'm somehow arguing that Zs don't have to micro in ZvT just because I pointed out that banes won't overkill. I said exactly nothing about the amount of micro required.
It's emblematic of the tribal nature of all these discussions that you chose to start an argument where none existed.
In this thread few are reading what others have to say, few are trying to understand, compromise or build anything. It's exactly as vicious, futile, frustrating and pointless as these things always are. The effect is exactly the opposite of what any sincere participant wants - an improved game.
All in all, it's pretty depressing reading y'all knocking lumps out of each other for no other reason than to satisfy an ego-itch.
edit: Ah, looks like I got caught too. You're right and I should have read properly Ovid. You weren't talking about banes overkilling, just banes running off after small groups of marines if not properly split. I stand by my point though that this entire conversation is about epeen and nothing to do with building anything better.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
