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For this season I decided to play protoss exclusively (zerg main) and I've gotten an education in just how poorly designed protoss is in Starcraft 2. The only viable strategy is to turtle and go robo tech into 3+ colossus before you can push out. High templar and zealot/archon are easily outmicro'd by the opponent and not worth the effort compared to A-moving colossus. Disruptors may end turtling but because it's yet another robo unit they may as well remove twilight council and every building it depends on from the game.
After this experience I've lost all desire to play the game and I'm hoping it's fixed in LOTV so I can love Starcraft again. Just to reiterate, I'd like to see these two things done with protoss. I really think this will address most of the problems with protoss and make the game more fun overall:
- Dark archon added off of dark shrine with following abilities: maelstrom- AOE movement and attack speed slow. This will make it harder to kite zealot/archon comps and make it competitive with MMM dps. As in Brood War, this should only affect biological so as to encourage mech. 200 damage single target "kamehameha" spell- to take out colossus (450 total hp), medivacs, lurkers or other key units. Third, innate detection, another weakness of twilight comps due to the introduction of widow mines. This will make dark shrine relevant outside of cheese builds.
- Double colossus damage and cut attack speed in half. The DPS stays the same, but the colossus gains the important ability to one-shot units like marines and workers. This will make it work more like a reaver, in that colossus drops / shuttle micro will be possible and a single colossus can actually kill some marines before being focused down and all the damage it dealt being healed off right before they moonwalk into the natural and kill off the nexus cannon with its pitiful dps.
For those who say protoss needs another core unit, I encourage you to try pure zealots vs. pure marines in a unit test map. Zealots can trade well with marines other things being equal. The problem is that terran has some very hard counters to zealots in addition to having an easy time microing against them. Protoss cannot counter MMM to the same extreme. Zealots are and should be the core protoss ground unit, I wouldn't have it any other way. They just need some better support, especially in the mid game.
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On January 01 2015 08:11 BaronVonOwn wrote:For this season I decided to play protoss exclusively (zerg main) and I've gotten an education in just how poorly designed protoss is in Starcraft 2. The only viable strategy is to turtle and go robo tech into 3+ colossus before you can push out. High templar and zealot/archon are easily outmicro'd by the opponent and not worth the effort compared to A-moving colossus. Disruptors may end turtling but because it's yet another robo unit they may as well remove twilight council and every building it depends on from the game. After this experience I've lost all desire to play the game and I'm hoping it's fixed in LOTV so I can love Starcraft again. Just to reiterate, I'd like to see these two things done with protoss. I really think this will address most of the problems with protoss and make the game more fun overall: - Dark archon added off of dark shrine with following abilities: maelstrom- AOE movement and attack speed slow. This will make it harder to kite zealot/archon comps and make it competitive with MMM dps. As in Brood War, this should only affect biological so as to encourage mech. 200 damage single target "kamehameha" spell- to take out colossus (450 total hp), medivacs, lurkers or other key units. Third, innate detection, another weakness of twilight comps due to the introduction of widow mines. This will make dark shrine relevant outside of cheese builds.
- Double colossus damage and cut attack speed in half. The DPS stays the same, but the colossus gains the important ability to one-shot units like marines and workers. This will make it work more like a reaver, in that colossus drops / shuttle micro will be possible and a single colossus can actually kill some marines before being focused down and all the damage it dealt being healed off right before they moonwalk into the natural and kill off the nexus cannon with its pitiful dps.
For those who say protoss needs another core unit, I encourage you to try pure zealots vs. pure marines in a unit test map. Zealots can trade well with marines other things being equal. The problem is that terran has some very hard counters to zealots in addition to having an easy time microing against them. Protoss cannot counter MMM to the same extreme. Zealots are and should be the core protoss ground unit, I wouldn't have it any other way. They just need some better support, especially in the mid game.
Well, protoss was poorly designed in Broodwar too and they definitely didn't find a good answer for it in StarCraft 2 although they have come up with several solutions that helped to mixed acceptance from the community (zealot charge vs speed, warpgate, sentry +armor and forcefield, and MSC). Mix in the poorly designed units for the other races and it puts protoss in a not so fun position. Broodlords were tough, but swarmhosts are stupid... widow mines and hellbats were both too good at what they did at the beginning of HotS.
For me the best matchup there has been in starcraft 2 has been Terran vs Terran...different viable strats, all 3 openings are viable (tech, pressure, economy) and the different unit compositions are solid and interact well with each other...also a late game tech switch can be massive going into BCs vs someone who is unprepared. No other race matchup works that well and I wish they would work on making the game more interactive like that. Protoss has been too reliant on sharp timings that are all ins or are very close to all ins outside of Rain here and there. The colossus/high Templar vs Viking/ghost battles with terran just don't play out with as much tension and positioning as the tank/marine vs MMM or tank/marine vs mech battles. Part of the problem is that units across the board due too much damage but especially stimmed marines.
A game with options and map considerations would be great and they have a chance to make it there. The see invisible super widow mine of beta heart of the swarm didn't make it into release for instance. So they are watching...the question is how to get it there is a tough, tough question.
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On January 01 2015 02:16 ZenithM wrote:Show nested quote +On December 31 2014 11:07 MarlieChurphy wrote:On December 28 2014 07:41 ZenithM wrote:On December 28 2014 05:38 MarlieChurphy wrote:On December 27 2014 10:05 ZenithM wrote:On December 26 2014 13:59 MarlieChurphy wrote:
Archon mode should also have a camera in the corner of the screen somewhere where you can see your ally's screen.
This way you can be macroing and still know what kind of units are fighting, what is dieing, what needs to be built unitwise, what kind of tech you need, if you need defensive structure etc. Also known as using the minimap ;D Don't be shittin on my good idea In all seriousness, the idea itself isn't bad (I'm all for having a better idea of what your ally is looking at), but the intended use you mentioned typically correspond to the kind of infos that are given by good minimap usage :D So ideally a good player must pay attention to the minimap and stop his macroing every couple of seconds to look at what his ally is scouting and fighting assuming that you are constantly gving him things to harass and scout with. So in other words, sort of guesstimating when to look. What a good team would do is be on skype and communicate constantly, which is great. So why not take it to the next level and just give you a camera. Both audio, visual, and overall minimap senses. More senses the better. It's the same for classic 2v2. Why not give you a second screen there? I personally think it's interesting that you have to communicate with your ally to know when and how to react to things (or be really good with your minimap to compensate for a lack of communication, I know it's not always practical to type in the middle of a game if you don't have voice chat capabilities). It would be nice already though in 2v2 if you could jump super quickly (like, with a hotkey) to your ally screen to see what he's talking about and/or help him deal with difficult micro.
While I see the comparison, it's quite different.
For starters, in archon mode you are more focused on 1 duty, micro/macro. 2ndly, you share the same base, units, etc
It's less like a partnership/alliance than a hemisphere of a brain, a combined hive mind, like an.. archon morphed together with 2 thoughts at once. Having to share a set of eyes, you would see what the other saw intrinsicially , etc.
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Protoss doesn't need another unit. Why not change the existing ones?
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On January 02 2015 00:14 DemigodcelpH wrote:
Protoss doesn't need another unit. Why not change the existing ones?
protoss doesnt need another unit? weve been using collo + gate unit comps since wol
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I played a little bit on the lotv mod (only TvZ for now).
I think everything is way too fast. It's almost impossible to keep up with everything (it's especially true for Z, none of them seemed to be able to creep spread) because you have to be constantly expanding. It's pretty fun because it's new but I think it would become annoying.
The only 'long' game I played was 20 min long. I was on 6~7 bases at this moment of the game ffs. And I didn't even over expanded.
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I feel that Zergs are struggling with drop harrass quite a lot, especially against T and with the mass air from Toss, which means Zerg AA is quite lackluster.
The units in BW, Scrouge and Devourer effectively dealed with these threats.
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I think that they aren't nailing it. The game doesn't need more speed, but a more rewarding type of econ (something more BW).
As a Protoss, I think that Protoss mechanics should be reworked and expanded instead of nerfed. Warpgate times changed instead of the nerf, and the MSC mechanic reworked. Nexus should have a defensive ability or even the same Photon Overcharge, but activated only via nexus, while Mothership Core regains some energy/shield related mechanic. So Protoss can expand safe, but the PO is nerfed because it drains the same energy that is needed to keep up production or tech. The sync with Warp gate rework is notable.
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I like a lot of the changes to the game so far, but isn't there going to be a lot of overlap? When would I want to build colossus vs. disruptors? Why would I want to build swarm hosts? They've said the hellbat and herc fill similar roles already.
I'm so damn sick of the colossus though. It really is the worst unit in the game. Even worse than swarmhosts I feel. Although swarmhosts vs. colossus is the worst unit interaction.
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Ideas to make lotv less deathbally.
All deathball elements should be removed at once to ensure there won't be an inbalance.
Raven: a support unit that promotes deathballs, and furthermore, makes deathballs of itself:
-- AutoTurret: buffed stats (hp, damage) but each raven can only place 1 turret, placing a new one destroys the previous one.
(Turrets can be placed to support troops or while retiring whiteout being able to flood the map with them, increasing raven support of smaller armies without escalating well in huge numbers)
-- PDD: replaced with Nano Matrix: 100 enegy. shields target mechanical for 200 dmg and slightly boosts its attack speed duration while it lasts.
(As it's singke targeted, it promotes being used in smaller engagements, if it ends up beeing too good with cyclone, can be changed with the old Defense Matrix)
-- Seeker Missile:
Option 1: replace with Fallout: 100 energy. Drains shields and energy of units in target area, then leaves the zone contaminated dealing peridic damage to biological units.(this effect wouldn't be stackablr like seeker missile damage)
Option 2: Emp missile: functions like sm without initial delay, drains shields and energy in the area surounding the unit it hits and dealing aoe only to biological targets.
Option 3: leave it as it is.
(Options 1 and 2 would imply ghosts replacing its emp abilty for something else, allowing for a redesign of the unit, specially its cost.
The main idea was the raven one, but ill throw this one out.
Hellions :
line splash is "random", lack of tracking turrets while moving takes away potential from it, and thus, the hellbat was added to make it viable in combat, which could be re proposed into something else if hellions are fixed, and made into a uniy that can be balanced withou the need of the hellbat, being fast and changing how it deals damage would be a start.
-- speed increase, even if it requires upgrade.
Opt1: replace weapon for a single target one with small aoe.
Opt2: and upgrade that allows it to freely swap between 2 kinds of weapons.
Opt3: add spidermines.
Opt4: a hp increase upgrade.
Colossus:
Add new unit: Harbinger: every 2 seconds deals 20 damage in a radius of 2-3 around it, even while moving. If there is an energy source nearby (warp prism) can deploy into a "colossus" after 3 seconds, powers down or automatically undeploys if energy source is removed. (could be targeted as ground only to compensate)
(What makes colossus such a deathbally unit is its power and range combined with mobily, this would also promote further uses of the prism)
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Mexico2170 Posts
On January 02 2015 12:14 SoleSteeler wrote:
I like a lot of the changes to the game so far, but isn't there going to be a lot of overlap? When would I want to build colossus vs. disruptors? Why would I want to build swarm hosts? They've said the hellbat and herc fill similar roles already.
I'm so damn sick of the colossus though. It really is the worst unit in the game. Even worse than swarmhosts I feel. Although swarmhosts vs. colossus is the worst unit interaction.
People are so dramatic, the colossus is not a particulary good unit, but it isn't terrible. The swarmhost IS a terrible unit, not the colossus.
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I just hate the relationship of anti-air vs. colossus. Feels very all or nothing.
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On January 02 2015 13:37 SoleSteeler wrote:
I just hate the relationship of anti-air vs. colossus. Feels very all or nothing.
The neo-development teams great hard-counter philosophy in designing SC2. Thank god that as of LotV they fixed as the Immortal as hardened shield was probably the worst hard-counter design of them all.
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On January 02 2015 13:36 [SXG]Phantom wrote:Show nested quote +On January 02 2015 12:14 SoleSteeler wrote:
I like a lot of the changes to the game so far, but isn't there going to be a lot of overlap? When would I want to build colossus vs. disruptors? Why would I want to build swarm hosts? They've said the hellbat and herc fill similar roles already.
I'm so damn sick of the colossus though. It really is the worst unit in the game. Even worse than swarmhosts I feel. Although swarmhosts vs. colossus is the worst unit interaction. People are so dramatic, the colossus is not a particulary good unit, but it isn't terrible. The swarmhost IS a terrible unit, not the colossus.
The Collossus is terrible. Extremely terrible.
As long as it is around, Protoss can play the deathball turtle. Even if they introduce a thousand other units, playstyles and allins and gambles for the race, there will still be the get rewarded for doing nothing collossus turtle deathball.
It's exactly the same as SHs. You don't have to go SH turtle from the start of the game. And most SH games don't ever became stale matches for map attrition and are usually fun. But all gameplay has to evolve around the possibility that people can go full retard boredom with those units.
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On January 01 2015 08:11 BaronVonOwn wrote:For this season I decided to play protoss exclusively (zerg main) and I've gotten an education in just how poorly designed protoss is in Starcraft 2. The only viable strategy is to turtle and go robo tech into 3+ colossus before you can push out. High templar and zealot/archon are easily outmicro'd by the opponent and not worth the effort compared to A-moving colossus. Disruptors may end turtling but because it's yet another robo unit they may as well remove twilight council and every building it depends on from the game. After this experience I've lost all desire to play the game and I'm hoping it's fixed in LOTV so I can love Starcraft again. Just to reiterate, I'd like to see these two things done with protoss. I really think this will address most of the problems with protoss and make the game more fun overall: - Dark archon added off of dark shrine with following abilities: maelstrom- AOE movement and attack speed slow. This will make it harder to kite zealot/archon comps and make it competitive with MMM dps. As in Brood War, this should only affect biological so as to encourage mech. 200 damage single target "kamehameha" spell- to take out colossus (450 total hp), medivacs, lurkers or other key units. Third, innate detection, another weakness of twilight comps due to the introduction of widow mines. This will make dark shrine relevant outside of cheese builds.
- Double colossus damage and cut attack speed in half. The DPS stays the same, but the colossus gains the important ability to one-shot units like marines and workers. This will make it work more like a reaver, in that colossus drops / shuttle micro will be possible and a single colossus can actually kill some marines before being focused down and all the damage it dealt being healed off right before they moonwalk into the natural and kill off the nexus cannon with its pitiful dps.
For those who say protoss needs another core unit, I encourage you to try pure zealots vs. pure marines in a unit test map. Zealots can trade well with marines other things being equal. The problem is that terran has some very hard counters to zealots in addition to having an easy time microing against them. Protoss cannot counter MMM to the same extreme. Zealots are and should be the core protoss ground unit, I wouldn't have it any other way. They just need some better support, especially in the mid game.
"Make it harder to kite zealot/archon comps?" What? Please complete your general survey of SC2 by selecting the Eagle race and experimenting the other side of the equation. Then come back to tell us it needs to be made harder while proposing absolutely nothing to raise the derisory skill floor of 1a'ing powerful melee units. This kind of one-sided interaction is exactly what needs to disappear.
Your revamped Maëlstrom would essentially act as a glorified Time Warp, which is already a super bad spell to begin with: the effort/effect ratio is completely off (no pain no gain should be a golden rule with the presence of "smart" casting, as it's otherwise far too simple to trigger devastative effects with little user input) + disables are really frustrating for the other side (e. g. Forcefields, Fungals), so they should be treated with extreme care. No thanks.
Having mobile detection in all "tier2" tech paths would be stupid. There's simply nothing interesting in that. Different tech paths should have different strengths and weaknesses, particularly to balance the game of build orders. Designing complete, "perfect" systems is the surest way to end up with something bland. You want to leave certain gaps for players to work around.
Last but not least, lol @ your Dark Archon receiving a midgame Yamato. One-kill button in midgame = no no.
Encouraging mech by nerfing bio? No thanks, we've already seen the result. If you want to see mech in TvP, it first needs to be viable.
With your suggestion, the Colossus would gain the ability to one-shot not only Marines and workers, but also any line composed of units that have less than 120-160 hit points (depending on upgrades, and given that there are often 2+ Colossi in action). That's the vast majority of all ground units ever made in PvT and PvZ—did you think one second about that?
I'll pass on your nonsense about Terran having "some very hard counters" to Zealots (lol) or the current Colossi being apparently unable to hold hords of angry Marines, a lovely thesis that nonetheless fails to explain why Colossi are the staple unit of macro TvP since 4 years; probably because Protoss love nothing more than tickling Marines with sparkling lasers. At least have a credible diagnosis of the current situation if you want to modify something based on that...
Even when disregarding the terrible balance you want to introduce out of some petty, vengeful ladder frustration, your suggestions are literally the opposite of what the game needs.
As for the core unit discussion: Zealots and Dragoons should be the core Protoss ground units. SC2 developers thought it would be cool/clever to break up the Dragoon and dispatch the pieces in different directions, but they were wrong; awfully wrong. It is high time to repair that original sin.
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On January 02 2015 13:36 [SXG]Phantom wrote:Show nested quote +On January 02 2015 12:14 SoleSteeler wrote:
I like a lot of the changes to the game so far, but isn't there going to be a lot of overlap? When would I want to build colossus vs. disruptors? Why would I want to build swarm hosts? They've said the hellbat and herc fill similar roles already.
I'm so damn sick of the colossus though. It really is the worst unit in the game. Even worse than swarmhosts I feel. Although swarmhosts vs. colossus is the worst unit interaction. People are so dramatic, the colossus is not a particulary good unit, but it isn't terrible. The swarmhost IS a terrible unit, not the colossus. SH is hurting certain plays. Collosus is making whole race stupid.
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And together they make the whole game stupid!
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Some possible abilities for a Dark Archon type of unit.
Temporal wave: Draw a line on the ground, all friendly units passing through it get a short and large boost to movement speed. Obvious potential to get units into position slightly before a fight, chase down retreating units or to retreat your own units.
Vortex blast: Lob a projectile, all units hit are pulled to the centre of the blast, units can move again immediately after being pulled in(also including a slow effect might make it too strong, but is also possible).
One or all of the following potential secondary effects: un-burrows any unit hit, pulls siege tanks out of siege mode, briefly de-cloaks any unit hit.
Clear out minefields, help zealots to get a surround on units, help aoe attacks deal more damage, etc Needs to think about how it fits with with other units such as the disrupter, perhaps too strong if it allows the disrupter to always hit its target. Although it is a late game combination of units/abilities and still requires good timing and micro.
Quantum shielding: Apply a shield to target unit, all attacks against that unit will 'miss' for a short duration. Potentially also protects against Emp if cast before hit by it. Cast on expensive units to protect them when they are being focused(Including the dark archon casting it on itself).
These can not be thought of in a vacuum and would likely have to be accompanied with other changes.
For example remove forcefields, reduce the gas cost of the sentry and make it stronger in a straight up fight, faster movement/more hitpoints and perhaps its beam 'chains' to nearby units? The exact numbers would need some thought.
They can still cast guardian shield and hallucination.
Make it an early game unit that can help defend against lings without needing forcefields. Sentry drops might be worth it for harassing workers.
This could have further knock on effects, with no forcefields the stalker could perhaps use another upgrade on the twilight council that improves its damage. Providing a choice between higher damage or blink at first but allowing stalkers to be better later in the game.
Try and imagine a game where the protoss builds up a force of zealot/sentry/templar/archon/dark archon? Maybe add in warp prisms and disrupters at some point.
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On January 02 2015 12:47 kakalxlax wrote:+ Show Spoiler [Raven] +Raven: a support unit that promotes deathballs, and furthermore, makes deathballs of itself:
-- AutoTurret: buffed stats (hp, damage) but each raven can only place 1 turret, placing a new one destroys the previous one.
(Turrets can be placed to support troops or while retiring whiteout being able to flood the map with them, increasing raven support of smaller armies without escalating well in huge numbers)
-- PDD: replaced with Nano Matrix: 100 enegy. shields target mechanical for 200 dmg and slightly boosts its attack speed duration while it lasts.
(As it's singke targeted, it promotes being used in smaller engagements, if it ends up beeing too good with cyclone, can be changed with the old Defense Matrix)
-- Seeker Missile:
Option 1: replace with Fallout: 100 energy. Drains shields and energy of units in target area, then leaves the zone contaminated dealing peridic damage to biological units.(this effect wouldn't be stackablr like seeker missile damage)
Option 2: Emp missile: functions like sm without initial delay, drains shields and energy in the area surounding the unit it hits and dealing aoe only to biological targets.
Option 3: leave it as it is.
(Options 1 and 2 would imply ghosts replacing its emp abilty for something else, allowing for a redesign of the unit, specially its cost.
The main idea was the raven one, but ill throw this one out.
I don't think Autoturrets need any change since they're not the spell responsible for Raven accumulation—to a large extent because mass casting them is awkward/hard; the umpteenth lesson that mechanical barriers are a natural protection against nonsense (imagine how bad it would be if Autoturrets were an air unit, i.e. if it was possible to stack them at the same location…). Autoturrets are multi-purpose and don't cause any gameplay issue, unlike mass pdds/Missiles in lategame TvZ/TvT. For me they're in a good spot.
Can you precise your Nano Matrix idea? The formulation makes it difficult to understand.
Personally, without changing spells, I think I would go with something like:
Raven
- Decrease cost to 75/150 (down from 100/200)
- Decrease production time to 50 (down from 60)
- Increase pdd energy cost to 125 OR implement a ~150 seconds cooldown
- Decrease Missile casting range to ~6.5 (down from 10)
- Decrease the Missile "casting point" [the time it spends locking on its target before being effectively fired]
- Increase Missile energy cost to 100 (up from 75)
- Missiles now have a 4 seconds cooldown
- Movement speed increased to 2.75 (up from 2.25)
Reasonings:
Decreased costs: SC2 needs to turn away from the model of super expensive, slowly produced, clunky powerful units. With such parameters, the unit is immediately fit for the deathball system. Besides, it would be nice if Terrans could build more smoothly some Raven support instead of being pigeonholed into the current model of turtling for a full, dedicated long-term accumulation. It just has to be made a bit more flexible; no need to fall into the bad model of instant tech switches (the idea of transitions is far superior: takes time, gives time).
General spell management: a fleet of 200 energy Ravens should simply yield less return than currently so Terran isn't encouraged to build it passively. Each individual Raven with full energy should be less potent. This means a cooldown or 125 energy for one of the two main spells (Missile, pdd).
Seeker Missile: The concept of the WoL Missile was, I think, superior; the idea of a stackable, long distance AoE spell that deals massive damage is super dangerous in the SC2 environement (smart casting + natural stacking of units) and should thus be tightly kept in check by a severe mechanism of opposition: in this case, having to commit the Raven + being unable to instantly chain 2 Missiles. Lowering the casting range reintroduces risk in the casting procedure; 10 range is artillery domain, which makes it too difficult/impossible for the other side to prevent the spell without dedicated "counters". I also think there's epic potential in watching a concave of Ravens fly forward to unleash hell; the bad TvZ balance + dumb Fungal at the end of WoL robbed us of many good moments like that  Since the casting maneuver would be riskier, the Missile would have to be less dodgeable than now, but of course it is of utmost importance that the possibility of counter-micro remains, especially with friendly fire (a critical part of what makes Terran AoE shine).
PDD: a 100 mana cost coupled with a super long cooldown (like ~75% of the duration of a pdd) has my preference, because the unit can thus be useful earlier. Various extra measures such as reducing the radius or decreasing the energy of the pdd can also be tried if tweaking the cost proves insufficient.
Increased movement speed: +0.5 compared with the current ms; slight boost to make it more maneuverable/operational, adds some raiding potential; combined with the decreased costs, this would turn away the unit from the "too frail/too precious to be split" model and promote more activity. Being able to squeeze in 1 or 2 Raven(s) in bio raids/drops could really add flavor to the ensuing small battles.
Naturally, this supposes the Swarm host is no longer a core anti-mech unit, but it seems they're drastically changing the unit anyway.
Feedback completely shutting down Ravens should also be addressed in some way. Ideally I think Feedback should be limited, like the EMP, to draining only up to 100 energy, rather than insta-gibbing full energy casters like it does now (following the philosophy of softening the counters and introducing finesse/nuance/difficulty in the game). I know this would cause problems with the Viper but it is more than time to lance the boil there; one of the main goals for LotV should be to turn lategame away from those dumb spellcasters wars (HTs vs Ghosts, Vipers/Infests vs HTs, Vipers vs Ravens, Ravens vs Ravens in TvT) that only promote coinflippy/shallow micro and are a typical byproduct of the deathball system anyway. TvP bio play needs such a huge breath of fresh air that the nerf to HTs Feedback'ing Medivacs would simply be integrated into the necessary rebalancing process.
It should be noted that a sensible change of the economic system might solve on its own the Raven accumulation, but various improvements can still be made to the unit nonetheless.
On January 02 2015 12:47 kakalxlax wrote:
Hellions :
line splash is "random", lack of tracking turrets while moving takes away potential from it, and thus, the hellbat was added to make it viable in combat, which could be re proposed into something else if hellions are fixed, and made into a uniy that can be balanced withou the need of the hellbat, being fast and changing how it deals damage would be a start.
-- speed increase, even if it requires upgrade.
Opt1: replace weapon for a single target one with small aoe.
Opt2: and upgrade that allows it to freely swap between 2 kinds of weapons.
Opt3: add spidermines.
Opt4: a hp increase upgrade.
I approve your stance on the Hellion. The Hellbat as a Factory Firebat should simply go, but the HotS idea of adding needed versatility to the WoL Hellion is definitely spot on and should stay. The Hellion should just transform into something else than an AoE Zealot which, again, synergizes with the Medivac (this theme is really obsessive in the Blizzard crew, but I don't blame them for clingling to one of the few SC2 innovations that did work). For this new Hellbat, I would go with:
New Hellbat
- Range unchanged with the transformation (5)
- Movement speed unchanged with the transformation (4.25)
- Hit points increased to 125 (up from 90 in the Hellion form, but down from the current 135)
- In the Hellbat mode, the unit remains Light, Mechanical, but not Biological (no Medivac heal)
- Decrease the damage point and the turn rate (unlike the Hellion, the Hellbat would be more agile, without the semi-awkward "turret rotation" when it comes to hit & run; it would also be nice if the unit didn't need to fully decelerate before shooting)
- Damage/attack cooldown changed to ~10 every 1.67 second; single target, no splash, no bonus
Basically this would turn the Hellion into a beefier, more versatile unit with a Vulture-like behaviour for its attack. The unit would retain raiding potential, but less so against workers; in particular its dps against structures would be roughly doubled compared with Hellions. Its efficiency would however be reduced against basic mineral units (there should be a tension between the 2 modes so actual choices are made).
Actually, they could probably name this transformation "Cyclone mode" instead of implementing that auto-shot horror.
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On January 02 2015 23:45 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On January 02 2015 12:47 kakalxlax wrote:+ Show Spoiler [Raven] +Raven: a support unit that promotes deathballs, and furthermore, makes deathballs of itself:
-- AutoTurret: buffed stats (hp, damage) but each raven can only place 1 turret, placing a new one destroys the previous one.
(Turrets can be placed to support troops or while retiring whiteout being able to flood the map with them, increasing raven support of smaller armies without escalating well in huge numbers)
-- PDD: replaced with Nano Matrix: 100 enegy. shields target mechanical for 200 dmg and slightly boosts its attack speed duration while it lasts.
(As it's single targeted, it promotes being used in smaller engagements, if it ends up beeing too good with cyclone, can be changed with the old Defense Matrix)
-- Seeker Missile:
Option 1: replace with Fallout: 100 energy. Drains shields and energy of units in target area, then leaves the zone contaminated dealing peridic damage to biological units.(this effect wouldn't be stackablr like seeker missile damage)
Option 2: Emp missile: functions like sm without initial delay, drains shields and energy in the area surounding the unit it hits and dealing aoe only to biological targets.
Option 3: leave it as it is.
(Options 1 and 2 would imply ghosts replacing its emp abilty for something else, allowing for a redesign of the unit, specially its cost.
The main idea was the raven one, but ill throw this one out. Show nested quote +I don't think Autoturrets need any change since they're not the spell responsible for Raven accumulation—to a large extent because mass casting them is awkward/hard; the umpteenth lesson that mechanical barriers are a natural protection against nonsense (imagine how bad it would be if Autoturrets were an air unit, i.e. if it was possible to stack them at the same location…). Autoturrets are multi-purpose and don't cause any gameplay issue, unlike mass pdds/Missiles in lategame TvZ/TvT. For me they're in a good spot. Can you precise your Nano Matrix idea? The formulation makes it difficult to understand. Personally, without changing spells, I think I would go with something like: Raven
- Decrease cost to 75/150 (down from 100/200)
- Decrease production time to 50 (down from 60)
- Increase pdd energy cost to 125 OR implement a ~150 seconds cooldown
- Decrease Missile casting range to ~6.5 (down from 10)
- Decrease the Missile "casting point" [the time it spends locking on its target before being effectively fired]
- Increase Missile energy cost to 100 (up from 75)
- Missiles now have a 4 seconds cooldown
- Movement speed increased to 2.75 (up from 2.25) Reasonings: Decreased costs: SC2 needs to turn away from the model of super expensive, slowly produced, clunky powerful units. With such parameters, the unit is immediately fit for the deathball system. Besides, it would be nice if Terrans could build more smoothly some Raven support instead of being pigeonholed into the current model of turtling for a full, dedicated long-term accumulation. It just has to be made a bit more flexible; no need to fall into the bad model of instant tech switches (the idea of transitions is far superior: takes time, gives time). General spell management: a fleet of 200 energy Ravens should simply yield less return than currently so Terran isn't encouraged to build it passively. Each individual Raven with full energy should be less potent. This means a cooldown or 125 energy for one of the two main spells (Missile, pdd). The idea was to make 200 raven army not a thing (like 200 army science vessels) Instead, reinforcing its support role in a way it would discourage deathballs from both sides.
Auto-turret
most examples of mass-raven-only consist in a flock of them flooding the enemy base with turrets. Having beefier but lower in number turrets would make them better at supporting small groups, while making it less prone to escalating to deathball levels, and as a consequence, reduce turtling.
PDD: the abilty to replace it (nano matrix) would cost 100 energy, create a shield around a mechanical unit that absorbs 200 damage during 15-20 seconds. As long as tge shield lasts (either i its destroyed by damage or times out) the shielded unit gains 30-50% attack speed.
This effect could be non-stackable with others alike (to avoid cyclones lock stack), so a locked cyclone would only receive the shield.
This would give the spell double utility.
The alternative is the old Defense Matrix which lasted 60 seconds and shielded 250 damage.
PDD nullifies all ranged attacks, this would only protect 1 unit, which could be ignored by the enemy to kill the others or focus fire on it to eliminate the attackspeed boost.
Seeker Missile: The concept of the WoL Missile was, I think, superior; the idea of a stackable, long distance AoE spell that deals massive damage is super dangerous in the SC2 environement (smart casting + natural stacking of units) and should thus be tightly kept in check by a severe mechanism of opposition: in this case, having to commit the Raven + being unable to instantly chain 2 Missiles. Lowering the casting range reintroduces risk in the casting procedure; 10 range is artillery domain, which makes it too difficult/impossible for the other side to prevent the spell without dedicated "counters". I also think there's epic potential in watching a concave of Ravens fly forward to unleash hell; the bad TvZ balance + dumb Fungal at the end of WoL robbed us of many good moments like that Since the casting maneuver would be riskier, the Missile would have to be less dodgeable than now, but of course it is of utmost importance that the possibility of counter-micro remains, especially with friendly fire (a critical part of what makes Terran AoE shine).
The thing is, that stackable AoE also promote deathballs, the option 1 would basically change the spell to a blend of emp and irradiate, which were better at disuading deathballs away while not promoting Science Vessel deathballs.
the option 2 would keep the avoidable missile concept, whilr also blending in those spells.
Giving the raven an emp-like spell would also mean the Ghost could get emp replaced for other spell, and thus, allowing for a cost reduction.
Increased movement speed: +0.5 compared with the current ms; slight boost to make it more maneuverable/operational, adds some raiding potential; combined with the decreased costs, this would turn away the unit from the "too frail/too precious to be split" model and promote more activity. Being able to squeeze in 1 or 2 Raven(s) in bio raids/drops could really add flavor to the ensuing small battles.
Increasing movement speed would be acceptable with changes that ensure they dont promote deathballs, i agree.
Naturally, this supposes the Swarm host is no longer a core anti-mech unit, but it seems they're drastically changing the unit anyway.
Im concerned about flying locusta wrecking up tanks, as they can close up without them being able to shoot back/friendly fire. Besides that, the change to the sh seems positive.
Feedback completely shutting down Ravens should also be addressed in some way. Ideally I think Feedback should be limited, like the EMP, to draining only up to 100 energy, rather than insta-gibbing full energy casters like it does now
Giving ravens the Fallout spell or other emp variations, would give them the tool to fight back HT as long as the raven user acts fast enough to "emp" before feedback.
the slight speed boost can also help.
TvP bio play needs such a huge breath of fresh air that the nerf to HTs Feedback'ing Medivacs would simply be integrated into the necessary rebalancing process.
Draining HT would also make ravens usable in bio, without having ghost high mineral cost toll.
Show nested quote +On January 02 2015 12:47 kakalxlax wrote:
Hellions :
line splash is "random", lack of tracking turrets while moving takes away potential from it, and thus, the hellbat was added to make it viable in combat, which could be re proposed into something else if hellions are fixed, and made into a uniy that can be balanced withou the need of the hellbat, being fast and changing how it deals damage would be a start.
-- speed increase, even if it requires upgrade.
Opt1: replace weapon for a single target one with small aoe.
Opt2: and upgrade that allows it to freely swap between 2 kinds of weapons.
Opt3: add spidermines.
Opt4: a hp increase upgrade. I approve your stance on the Hellion. The Hellbat as a Factory Firebat should simply go, but the HotS idea of adding needed versatility to the WoL Hellion is definitely spot on and should stay. The Hellion should just transform into something else than an AoE Zealot which, again, synergizes with the Medivac (this theme is really obsessive in the Blizzard crew, but I don't blame them for clingling to one of the few SC2 innovations that did work). For this new Hellbat, I would go with: Show nested quote +New Hellbat
- Range unchanged with the transformation (5)
- Movement speed unchanged with the transformation (4.25)
- Hit points increased to 125 (up from 90 in the Hellion form, but down from the current 135)
- In the Hellbat mode, the unit remains Light, Mechanical, but not Biological (no Medivac heal)
- Decrease the damage point and the turn rate (unlike the Hellion, the Hellbat would be more agile, without the semi-awkward "turret rotation" when it comes to hit & run; it would also be nice if the unit didn't need to fully decelerate before shooting)
- Damage/attack cooldown changed to ~10 every 1.67 second; single target, no splash, no bonus Basically this would turn the Hellion into a beefier, more versatile unit with a Vulture-like behaviour for its attack. The unit would retain raiding potential, but less so against workers; in particular its dps against structures would be roughly doubled compared with Hellions. Its efficiency would however be reduced against basic mineral units (there should be a tension between the 2 modes so actual choices are made).
Ageed on damage point and deceleration, having a turret seems like an aestetic thing without real function.
The transformation (if it remains) should also change the weapon style: +1 range, change line splash for a small radial splash around target, increased damage.
But i think they could just implement those changes to the normal hellion so it can be balanced for harassment and combat (like the vulture was) and the let them redesign the Hellbat into something else, maybe a support unit.
2 more ideas:
Adding back the G4-Charge to Reapers as an upgrade. (Charge thrown to a point that detonates after 2 seconds)
Not only that would make them not useless beyond openings, but create small task forces with an ability that increases micro from the user (to cast) and enemy (to avoid)
Making sentry shields be casted to a point instead of following the sentry. Would make the ability more positional. If needed could have shield and duration tweaked to compensate.
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