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Immortal Barrier ability is an upgrade
The Barrier ability combined with the new ranged pick up from Warp Prisms has been too difficult to defend against without having air units. We’re currently testing having the ability as an upgrade. We may need to make tweaks to improve the ability if needed, but this is something we’ll look at going forward.
This change is terrible. The general idea of Barrier ability is terrible. It literally makes immortal MORTAL as it will have zero abilities as a T2 unit. If this change is applied, who would bother to waste resources on immortals' production? Let alone an upgrade of an ability that you need to manually activate just to make this unit more microable.
I think an option to enhance immortal's role of meat shield is "shared HP" as a passive ability. It works like the Soul Walker's spell in Warcraft3: when an immortal is heavily fired upon and there are X-1 immortals nearby, then each immortal takes 1/X damage.
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On December 24 2014 07:28 TedCruz2016 wrote:Show nested quote +Immortal Barrier ability is an upgrade
The Barrier ability combined with the new ranged pick up from Warp Prisms has been too difficult to defend against without having air units. We’re currently testing having the ability as an upgrade. We may need to make tweaks to improve the ability if needed, but this is something we’ll look at going forward. This change is terrible. The general idea of Barrier ability is terrible. It literally makes immortal MORTAL as it will have zero abilities as a T2 unit. If this change is applied, who would bother to waste resources on immortals' production? Let alone an upgrade of an ability that you need to manually activate just to make this unit more microable. I think an option to enhance immortal's role of meat shield is "shared HP" as a passive ability. It works like the Soul Walker's spell in Warcraft3: when an immortal is heavily fired upon and there are X-1 immortals nearby, then each immortal takes 1/X damage.
The goal is to remove deathballs, not reinforce them...
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On December 24 2014 07:33 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2014 07:28 TedCruz2016 wrote:Immortal Barrier ability is an upgrade
The Barrier ability combined with the new ranged pick up from Warp Prisms has been too difficult to defend against without having air units. We’re currently testing having the ability as an upgrade. We may need to make tweaks to improve the ability if needed, but this is something we’ll look at going forward. This change is terrible. The general idea of Barrier ability is terrible. It literally makes immortal MORTAL as it will have zero abilities as a T2 unit. If this change is applied, who would bother to waste resources on immortals' production? Let alone an upgrade of an ability that you need to manually activate just to make this unit more microable. I think an option to enhance immortal's role of meat shield is "shared HP" as a passive ability. It works like the Soul Walker's spell in Warcraft3: when an immortal is heavily fired upon and there are X-1 immortals nearby, then each immortal takes 1/X damage. The goal is to remove deathballs, not reinforce them...
The goal is a smooth transition from T1 units to T3 units, which means stronger T2 units. The maximum of X could be 4 or 5, so when immortals are under attack by a sieged tank, each one will take 12.5 or 10 damage, which is equivalent to hardened shield's effect. And also, like hardened shield, this ability no longer works when an immortal's shield is reduced to zero.
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On December 24 2014 06:28 clickrush wrote:
If warpgate tech is really the main balance issue for P then I would suggest that they use energy for warp ins but also lower the time required for switching between warpgate and gateway significantly.
That way warpgate pressure would still be a strong tactic while it would run out of steam quicker. This would also increase the mechanical ceiling for playing P which is a good thing considering that it has the lowest so far.
I don't like the idea of restricting warpgates with ressources or by limiting it's unit options. The only other suggestion that I like is moving warpgate tech to the twilight council and or prolonging the upgrade time in conjunction with the higher warp in time (+4s). Because past 2-3 base play it is really not that much of an issue anymore but gives P the option to be more mobile. The talk about defenders advantage is bollocks. Literally only the first warpin round circumvents the defenders advantage and the following ones are on the timing of a normally rallied army. The mobility you get from warpgate during lategame is not more or less than what T gets through medivacs and Z through sheer unit speed, creep and nydus.
Oh wow, energy on warpgates is actually a really good idea. I think that would fix a lot of the balance issues around it. Obviously other things would need tweaked (like gateway build times, unit build times, etc), but having a finite amount of warpins within a given time-span would still allow some aggressive and reactive use, but it would peter out faster, meaning they couldn't endlessly negate defenders advantage with constant warp-in reinforcements. You'd also have to make the conscious choice of doing harrassment warp-ins at the cost of having defensive warpins later. Perhaps warpgates would allow traditional queuing as well as the energy based warp-in "spell". That way you could still macro out units while you waited on warpgates to regain their energy and you don't run into this awkward "shit, no energy, can't make units, money getting so high, lemme convert all my WG's back to GW's, ah shit" type scenerio.
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On December 24 2014 06:28 clickrush wrote:The only other suggestion that I like is moving warpgate tech to the twilight council and or prolonging the upgrade time in conjunction with the higher warp in time (+4s). Because past 2-3 base play it is really not that much of an issue anymore but gives P the option to be more mobile. The talk about defenders advantage is bollocks. Literally only the first warpin round circumvents the defenders advantage and the following ones are on the timing of a normally rallied army. The mobility you get from warpgate during lategame is not more or less than what T gets through medivacs and Z through sheer unit speed, creep and nydus.
I agree with this part. I think increasing Warp Gate research cost and time to something like 150/150/190 and keeping the increased warp-in time/damage taken will allow the Gateway units to be buffed while keeping them balanced.
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I always believe that if each race is imbalanced in its own way, the game will be naturally balanced and players will have a lot of fun. Case in reality is that when everyone is armed with a gun, the crime rate is lower and everyone is friendlier to each other. Nerfing every supposed OP unit will only make the units mediocre and the game boring.
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On December 24 2014 07:28 TedCruz2016 wrote:Show nested quote +Immortal Barrier ability is an upgrade
The Barrier ability combined with the new ranged pick up from Warp Prisms has been too difficult to defend against without having air units. We’re currently testing having the ability as an upgrade. We may need to make tweaks to improve the ability if needed, but this is something we’ll look at going forward. This change is terrible. The general idea of Barrier ability is terrible. It literally makes immortal MORTAL as it will have zero abilities as a T2 unit. If this change is applied, who would bother to waste resources on immortals' production? Let alone an upgrade of an ability that you need to manually activate just to make this unit more microable. I think an option to enhance immortal's role of meat shield is "shared HP" as a passive ability. It works like the Soul Walker's spell in Warcraft3: when an immortal is heavily fired upon and there are X-1 immortals nearby, then each immortal takes 1/X damage.
Cause adding making an upgrade necessary to effectively use a unit (like the ultralisk and plating) is what Blizzard wants to increase more of... or wait, was it remove the need for that?
You're idea is cool; i can forsee it being broken, but it sounds cool and goes with the idea of an immortal
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Some rationale for my Protoss changes:
On December 24 2014 05:43 Cloak wrote:
-Removal of MsC.
Bandaid to the wound we intend to close.
On December 24 2014 05:43 Cloak wrote:
-Zealot legs. Base Speed 2.25 -> 2.4. Zealot Charge removed and replaced with 2.75 -> 3.5 Speed with 25% snare resist.
With upgrade, Stim Marine is 3.325. Zergling is anywhere from 3.8-6.1. Balances basic unit dynamic with no upgrades and also full upgrades. Differentiates Bisu Zealots from decent Zealots.
On December 24 2014 05:43 Cloak wrote:
-Sentry acquires Time Warp instead of FF. Hallucination 50 energy. Revert WoL Beta nerf of 6 -> 8 damage attack. 2.25 -> 2.5 base speed.
Sentries need buffs and are too niche if they're going to hold on their own. Time Warp shouldn't be spammable so no area overlapping, limited cast range, and 125 energy. Hallucination made cheaper is part of replacing MsC as a scout and making it less gimmicky.
On December 24 2014 05:43 Cloak wrote:
-Stalker +2 instead of +1 per weapon attack upg. Lower damage point.
Stalkers early game are already decent they just lack punch the further the games on, this is as direct of a change as I can think of. Early Speedlings may be trouble but with a new Gateway unit it might not be an issue.
On December 24 2014 05:43 Cloak wrote:
-Push Warpgate upgrade to Twilight unlock.
-Casting Chronoboost on regular Gateways is free.
Compensatory nerfs and reworking of Gateway. Pushback is the most palatable nerf without compromising the Protoss identity. Chronoboost uptime on the Gateways will always be skill dependent, flashy so spectators and commentators can can always refer to it when casting, and gives an interesting advantage to vanilla Gateways without changing much.
On December 24 2014 05:43 Cloak wrote:
-Two Sentry fuse into a unit, the Sentinel. High armor, dual energy cannon bionic. Low attack rate single target that can attack air, +light. Active AoE knockback ion bomb ~6-7 range cast 2-3 radius AoE effect. High shield/hp ratio. 2.25 move speed.
My idea pitch. High armor to punish lowbie tiers so Protoss equivalent to a moderately cost efficient Roach. Move speed needs to be competitive in skirmish format. +light and can attack air to help deal with Mutas/Bio/Zerglings/Banes without going Colossus/Stalker. The active AoE KB ability can be used for both defensive and offensive purposes. It ruins the effectiveness of AoE on both sides and disincentivizes you to clump. Should make for some hairy and scrappy fights.
On December 24 2014 05:43 Cloak wrote:
-Dark Shrine removed. Templar archives now unlocks DTs. DT Blink now researchable for 150/150. HT move speed buffed from 1.875 -> 2.25.
Tech has gotten nerfed since the 12 worker change, and DTs were already a nonissue. Super Banshees have come to town so DT should follow. Templar Archives combine makes sense and DT blink is a logical step in upping their mobility. Also Blink DTs can't really deathball all too well, but surgical strikes maybe so. HT move speed buff is a quality of life thing.
On December 24 2014 05:43 Cloak wrote:
-Reaver-esque unit instead of Disruptor at Robo.
An expensive melee unit has to have ridiculous mechanics like invulnerability to be useful. The Widow Mine is much better version of a similar concept because it sends out a disposable copy that has the near same instagibbness of the Disruptor for a fraction of the price. If you whiff a Disruptor that's guaranteed death, being in the middle of your opponent's deathball, while a whiffed Widow Mine is probably sitting comfy behind Siege lines. Thus, the expensive unit being far away from danger combined with the uncertain chaotic explosion ball lends itself to more of a Reaver-like unit than a Baneling-like unit.
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On December 24 2014 05:43 Cloak wrote:
-Two Sentry fuse into a unit, the Sentinel. High armor, dual energy cannon bionic. Low attack rate single target that can attack air, +light. Active AoE knockback ion bomb ~6-7 range cast 2-3 radius AoE effect. High shield/hp ratio. 2.25 move speed.
Impossible. Sentinel (sentinelle) is already the french word for sentry 
I have a hard time understanding how it would look like but we need a protoss unit with a laser whiplash
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On December 24 2014 21:32 algue wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2014 05:43 Cloak wrote:
-Two Sentry fuse into a unit, the Sentinel. High armor, dual energy cannon bionic. Low attack rate single target that can attack air, +light. Active AoE knockback ion bomb ~6-7 range cast 2-3 radius AoE effect. High shield/hp ratio. 2.25 move speed. Impossible. Sentinel (sentinelle) is already the french word for sentry I have a hard time understanding how it would look like but we need a protoss unit with a laser whiplash
Well, Dragoon was French for Dragon. Maybe I just like French words, but it does imply that French is better/advanced. Can call the Sentry whatever Scout is in French.
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Also, I'm willing to admit that I was wrong about combining Relevation and Envision, only because Envision ended up getting nerfed as a result. You have to land that initial cast rather than have a meaty detector for Xs. A tech-free form of the detection should be a goal for Protoss' expansion, much like the Overseer and Orbital. The most obvious tech-free venue is Chronoboost, where a boosted unit can acquire certain properties which can be played around with like haste or detection.
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One thing I picked up on during my second reading of the list: "Protoss having trouble taking more bases, Photon Overcharge un-nerfed to compensate."
This upsets me on some level, saying that Photon Overcharge will be expected to help expanding somehow? Great. MAYBE Overcharge helps defend thirds (a bit, assuming that your Nexus can even complete in order to be overcharged), but it's sure not going to help defend my fourth as by that point in the game the damage of Overcharge can be ignored - a single photon cannon of damage isn't meaningful when they can smash the Nexus in a few seconds.
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You all nailed it, what was i thinking, oh yes of course the zerg player can build 4 workers at once with the inject, ah yes i was forgetting. ask any zerg player what happens if he chooses to build workers instead of attacking units, and from the show matches, it looks like the zerg if they DONT build more than enough units then they are going to die. sounds great, all the while protoss have chronoed out a steady stream of 8 workers and the mules, well, less said about the mules.
lotv wants aggressive expansion. Great. Zerg has to stay one base ahead of all other races as their units as said are weaker. 1 unit for zerg is direct cost of their larva as well. 1 staler doesnt kill 1 set of lings, 1 lings kills a marine with micro but we had to choose army/eco where the other two are boosting their eco with their race mechanics.
I know im just that guy on the internet but im a graduate game programmer as well, i understand all of the mechanics of the game, tried to program similar games myself, i can just see early potential for harass vs the zerg in particular is going to be hard. Just look how effective 2rax and proxy gateways/cannons are if they go un scouted, streamers regularly bz-masters using these builds.
Ask any zerg player what his units are like one on one vs any other no direct counter unit
ask any zerg player if sometimes it a bit harder to inject when things are happening and the other races can constantly CONSTANTLY build workers.
now lotv make the early game really stressful for zerg, and of course if its not balanced correctly the zerg are just going to suffer no economy vs constant economy damaging harass. just my thoughts but there werent many people happy with sc2wol at the very start untill we got the savior queen buff.
Look, sc2 and sc to me seemed like a lot of time went into making all of the races feel different, while making them very similar interms of their eco production.
TO GUY BELOW. yes but the new units seem tier 2 or rather 1.5 units, dont affect before maybe 6 minutes. Hmm just looking at it and playing games on the custom map, this shit is hard
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On December 25 2014 19:47 StatixEx wrote:+ Show Spoiler +You all nailed it, what was i thinking, oh yes of course the zerg player can build 4 workers at once with the inject, ah yes i was forgetting. ask any zerg player what happens if he chooses to build workers instead of attacking units, and from the show matches, it looks like the zerg if they DONT build more than enough units then they are going to die. sounds great, all the while protoss have chronoed out a steady stream of 8 workers and the mules, well, less said about the mules.
lotv wants aggressive expansion. Great. Zerg has to stay one base ahead of all other races as their units as said are weaker. 1 unit for zerg is direct cost of their larva as well. 1 staler doesnt kill 1 set of lings, 1 lings kills a marine with micro but we had to choose army/eco where the other two are boosting their eco with their race mechanics.
I know im just that guy on the internet but im a graduate game programmer as well, i understand all of the mechanics of the game, tried to program similar games myself, i can just see early potential for harass vs the zerg in particular is going to be hard. Just look how effective 2rax and proxy gateways/cannons are if they go un scouted, streamers regularly bz-masters using these builds.
Ask any zerg player what his units are like one on one vs any other no direct counter unit
ask any zerg player if sometimes it a bit harder to inject when things are happening and the other races can constantly CONSTANTLY build workers.
now lotv make the early game really stressful for zerg, and of course if its not balanced correctly the zerg are just going to suffer no economy vs constant economy damaging harass. just my thoughts but there werent many people happy with sc2wol at the very start untill we got the savior queen buff.
Look, sc2 and sc to me seemed like a lot of time went into making all of the races feel different, while making them very similar interms of their eco production.
"The savior Queen buff," muahaha. Look, there's not much point freaking out about ZvX balance when the game is not even at the alpha stage. Personally I wish they would redesign Zerg around a less powerful larva inject/banking with increased supply efficiency for their lower tier units, and/or rework Roaches and Hydralisks around a 1 supply variant, but anyway Zerg seems to receive more supply-efficient units with the Ravager and the Lurker.
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On December 25 2014 19:47 StatixEx wrote:
You all nailed it, what was i thinking, oh yes of course the zerg player can build 4 workers at once with the inject, ah yes i was forgetting. ask any zerg player what happens if he chooses to build workers instead of attacking units, and from the show matches, it looks like the zerg if they DONT build more than enough units then they are going to die. sounds great, all the while protoss have chronoed out a steady stream of 8 workers and the mules, well, less said about the mules.
lotv wants aggressive expansion. Great. Zerg has to stay one base ahead of all other races as their units as said are weaker. 1 unit for zerg is direct cost of their larva as well. 1 staler doesnt kill 1 set of lings, 1 lings kills a marine with micro but we had to choose army/eco where the other two are boosting their eco with their race mechanics.
I know im just that guy on the internet but im a graduate game programmer as well, i understand all of the mechanics of the game, tried to program similar games myself, i can just see early potential for harass vs the zerg in particular is going to be hard. Just look how effective 2rax and proxy gateways/cannons are if they go un scouted, streamers regularly bz-masters using these builds.
Ask any zerg player what his units are like one on one vs any other no direct counter unit
ask any zerg player if sometimes it a bit harder to inject when things are happening and the other races can constantly CONSTANTLY build workers.
now lotv make the early game really stressful for zerg, and of course if its not balanced correctly the zerg are just going to suffer no economy vs constant economy damaging harass. just my thoughts but there werent many people happy with sc2wol at the very start untill we got the savior queen buff.
Look, sc2 and sc to me seemed like a lot of time went into making all of the races feel different, while making them very similar interms of their eco production.
TO GUY BELOW. yes but the new units seem tier 2 or rather 1.5 units, dont affect before maybe 6 minutes. Hmm just looking at it and playing games on the custom map, this shit is hard
There is no change from how it's currently in HOTS so your points are pretty moot.
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I hope they get the "we don't want more harass units part". "Harass" units are specialized, boring, frustrating, even infuriating sometimes. Hell, look at the oracle. To promote multitasking and reward actual skill, we need units that can operate in small packs (marines), not the disgraces they call harass units (oracle).
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On December 26 2014 06:43 [PkF] Wire wrote:
I hope they get the "we don't want more harass units part". "Harass" units are specialized, boring, frustrating, even infuriating sometimes. Hell, look at the oracle. To promote multitasking and reward actual skill, we need units that can operate in small packs (marines), not the disgraces they call harass units (oracle).
I don't think so:
hellion, mutalisk, medivac, warp prism
to some extend the banshee in TvT and TvZ
to some extend all the "fast" zerg core units like roaches, banelings and most prominently speedlings in all matchups
infestors when the game gets to it can be used for harass
Those are all units that aren't pidgeonholed harass units (useful or even strong in proper engagment play), but they excell at harassing. That's what an "harass unit" should can like. That's what most units that aren't specialized on combat superiority and tactical/positional play should look like. The problem isn't harass units, the problem is that blizzard isn't putting enough work into their unit ideas and still surf on ancient Dune/CnC/Broodwar unit designs in which the main idea was giving the unit a purpose to be built. Not whether the unit is actually fun to play with or play against. In particular the second part is where they keep on failing, not just with units but with whole races, their core mechanics and matchups. Because they keep on being satisfied with having stuff in the game that people use. "Oracle so good because Protoss build them"; seems to be enough for them.
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On December 26 2014 06:43 [PkF] Wire wrote:
I hope they get the "we don't want more harass units part". "Harass" units are specialized, boring, frustrating, even infuriating sometimes. Hell, look at the oracle. To promote multitasking and reward actual skill, we need units that can operate in small packs (marines), not the disgraces they call harass units (oracle).
small groups of units have to avoid the main army, which is hard if expansions run dry even faster. They'll speed up expanding with LotV, but that won't add more places to attack. They'll make it even easier for deathballs, because the mining bases will get closer to each other faster. So you can defend and deny mining at the same time.
But there are alot units that work in small groups already, doubt there can be added lots more, or they would have to be even faster and would just replace the current pack units.
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On December 26 2014 07:30 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On December 26 2014 06:43 [PkF] Wire wrote:
I hope they get the "we don't want more harass units part". "Harass" units are specialized, boring, frustrating, even infuriating sometimes. Hell, look at the oracle. To promote multitasking and reward actual skill, we need units that can operate in small packs (marines), not the disgraces they call harass units (oracle). I don't think so: hellion, mutalisk, medivac, warp prism to some extend the banshee in TvT and TvZ to some extend all the "fast" zerg core units like roaches, banelings and most prominently speedlings in all matchups infestors when the game gets to it can be used for harass Those are all units that aren't pidgeonholed harass units (useful or even strong in proper engagment play), but they excell at harassing. That's what an "harass unit" should can like. That's what most units that aren't specialized on combat superiority and tactical/positional play should look like. The problem isn't harass units, the problem is that blizzard isn't putting enough work into their unit ideas and still surf on ancient Dune/CnC/Broodwar unit designs in which the main idea was giving the unit a purpose to be built. Not whether the unit is actually fun to play with or play against. In particular the second part is where they keep on failing, not just with units but with whole races, their core mechanics and matchups. Because they keep on being satisfied with having stuff in the game that people use. "Oracle so good because Protoss build them"; seems to be enough for them.
This is exactly what I meant, my last sentence is probably really not accurate. What I meant is any unit that is good only at harassing and has no other role should not exist. It's just frustrating to play against and even to use because it becomes useless once deflected. Your examples are good and we indeed have enough harass units.
I was just reacting on their proposing another "harass unit" for Protoss. That infuriates me.
In the end, I'd like them to just acknowledge HotS did a lot of things wrong : I'm pretty sure than WoL with the infestor nerf that came with HotS, phoenix +1 base range and HotS hydras (only three things, we can add vipers if you wish) would be a far superior game. They need to take away everything that's plain boring or not working, not to keep adding bandaids over bandaids. And I'm afraid they're not doing that : speed medivacs, muta regen, swarm hosts, widow mines, mothership core, oracles, tempests and everything that made the game stale and uninteresting will still be there (OK, some of them will be tweaked... but can you make a good unit out of such bad ones ?).
On a more general note, I don't get why they think they have to add new units to create hype / justify the price of the expansion. I don't think any of the units HotS added was necessary in the end and I'm convinced the same will hold true for LotV units : do any of the units proposed seem to fulfill a role that no existing unit could fulfill ? I'd have been more than happy to pay for the campaign + tweaks on the WoL units that would have made the game perfect, because I believe WoL was quite well designed unit wise and only the corruptor should have got worked on. Only the viper seems to have some point existing. I'm happy they're trying to mess up with the economy and some mechanics like WG (and maybe forcefields, who knows) for LotV though, just worried that the end result could very well be simply worse.
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I hope they get the "we don't want more harass units part". "Harass" units are specialized, boring, frustrating, even infuriating sometimes. Hell, look at the oracle. To promote multitasking and reward actual skill, we need units that can operate in small packs (marines), not the disgraces they call harass units (oracle).
The oracle's problem isn't that it's a harass unit. Instead, it's just that it's a poorly designed unit that relies on critical mass and catching the enemy off guard rather than execution. Harass-units that relies on micro w/ counterplay is on the other hand a lot more interesting.
What I meant is any unit that is good only at harassing and has no other role should not exist. It's just frustrating to play against and even to use because it becomes useless once deflected. Your examples are good and we indeed have enough harass units
I think Blizzard is aware of this, and this was what they intended by giving Oracle revelation. Unfortunately, it was just a super boring way to give it more utility. Maybe the trap-thing will be more interesting, tough to say.
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EPT
