StarCraft 2 has been a competitively played game for nearly four years now. In that time we have had 25 IEMs, 23 GSLS, 21 Dreamhacks, 20 MLGs,10 HSCs,10 GSTLs, 7 ASUS Rogs, 7 Red Bulls, 4 Hot6ix Cups, 4 NASLs, 3 WCGs, 3 WCS Season Finals, 3 Blizzcons, 3 IPLs, 2.5 seasons of Proleague, 2 Iron Squids, 2 OSLs, 1 WCS 2012 Finals, 1 Kespa Cup, and a handful of other miscellaneous premier leagues. This doesn't even touch upon the extended list of majors, minors, locals and online tournaments.
In total, that adds up to 144 premier tournaments since SC2's launch. In comparison, Brood War had 12 years of history starting from the Hanaro Starleague in 2001. If we bundle all OSLs, MSLs, KPGAs, GOM Classics and WCGs into one package, it adds up to 72 premier tournaments. Reflect upon that. By the end of Wings of Liberty (2+ years into SC2’s history), we had already surpassed Brood War in sheer number of tournaments. I assert all of this not to incite BW vs SC2 discussions or to imply an inherent competition between the two games, but to give you context for the following statement:
The term bonjwa is meaningless in SC2.
Brood War was an entirely domestic scene, completely centralized in South Korea. It spanned over a decade, had only two major premier titles, and one sole team league (Proleague). Throughout its run, the game received little direct intervention from Blizzard. BW got its last gameplay patch on 4/18/01 on patch 1.08, 2.5 years after launch. After that, it was all up to professional players and mapmakers to create balance, either through innovative strategies or map design.
On the other hand, SC2 was larger from the beginning. Tournaments sprung up everywhere from America to Canada to Europe to SEA to Taiwan to China. Not only did SC2 bring in a new wave of Korean players, but it also established a truly global presence that persists to this day. So far, the foreign scene has resiliently repulsed every threat that would have demolished it back in Brood War: Koreans flying over to winning their weekend tournaments, Koreans settling in to win their WCS tournaments, and the huge influx of players switching from BW. And unlike BW, foreign pros are much closer to their Korean counterparts. While it's still rare for any of them to win a premier tournament (Sen is the only foreigner to do so in the last 2 years), it is a fairly common occurrence for a top-tier foreigner to knock out a Korean.
Beyond that are the relative importance of patches to both games. Like I mentioned before, Brood War was remarkable (by today's standards) for the off-hands approach of its developer. After patch 1.08, all "balance" issues were left up to players and mapmakers to tackle. By contrast, SC2 patches are almost continuous and a reaction to community demands. Sometimes it only took a single definitive series, from San vs sC to Thorzain vs MC, to convince Blizzard's design team that danger was imminent. In most cases the choice was fostered by collective outrage stemmed from frustration.
This sensitive attitude towards improvement has made the game volatile from a pro's standpoint. At one time in 2012, Zerg was considered too weak against Terran in the early game due to gas-first reactor hellions. In response, queen range was increased from 3 to 5. Infestors were widely judged to be too strong at the end of WoL (thanks in no small part to the queen buff, which allowed zerg to skimp defensive precautions) so they consequently received the nerf hammer; today, they are a niche unit only made after hive tech in extremely long games. For a long while Protoss ran amuck on blink friendly maps blinking out every Terran until only 3 were left in Code S. Blizzard eventually nerfed blink, instituted a new Terran-favored map pool and buffed the widow mine. And how can we forget the endless nominal adjustment to bunkers?
To be an SC2 pro is to be subject to the prods of a hundred different influences. A player's success in this age is subject to the whims of balance and maps. No matter what strategy you make, it can be rendered useless by an incoming patch. Information dissemination is at an all-time high thanks to widespread internet, increased coverage, and the ease of acquiring replays. No matter how amazing the strategies or mechanics, they will inevitably get studied, copied, impersonated and eventually countered by their peers. Traveling to foreign tournaments brings its own set of unique issues. The most amazing player and the most forgettable scrub have to equally deal with jet lag, travel, LAN issues (remember MLG Dallas and Blizzcon?), and fatigue. For world warriors like MC, HyuN and Jaedong, such peripatetic lifestyles often translated into slowly degrading skill-sets. While they wore themselves out hopping from plane to plane, their peers back home could watch, dissect, practice and put in more hours of practice and get ahead of them.
The relationship between acclaim and circumstance is more blatant when looking at the stay-at-home types. Take INnoVation and Flash. At the beginning of HotS, both were considered two of the best Terrans in the world. They pioneered the lean, streamlined aggression of modern TvZ with hellbat drops and bio/mine pushes, and few opponents had the right answers. Their tag team efforts were so dominating that Blizzard was forced to step in. After the balance team nerfed both the mine and hellbat, they subsequently both fell off form; neither got close to a championship again until this year. Was it a coincidence that they rose from the ashes when Blizzard put in Terran-favored maps, better hellbats, better thors and better mines? Expansions, maps, balance changes, influxes of new players, constant strategic innovations, all of these factors put together created an atmosphere of pressure unlike any seen in BW. Patches come regularly and often and players have at some point literally gotten on a plane and landed to only realize the game was patched when they were midair. When you take all of those elements into account, it becomes easy to understand why consistency is so hard to manage.
Yet even among this unmitigated chaos players have risen time and time again to not only win a championship, not only to lead their race in strategic innovation, but to do so anywhere from one month upwards to an year. In that race for the top, dynasties and legacies were formed.
Even after nearly 2 years of mediocrity, none have surpassed his glory
For 2011 there was but one King. Mvp. But unlike his two compatriots, Nestea and MC, he was never a lone traveler. 2011 is remembered derisively as the year of TvT and the year when players like Polt, MMA, MKP, Bomber and PuMa made their mark. Yet most of those champions proved their staying power: all of them except Puma have survived the test of time. Nearly 3 years after they debuted, all of them have won multiple premier tournaments at some point or another.
Together they pushed the TvX meta forward at a rapid pace. An acknowledgement must be given to Jinro for laying the groundwork of 3 base Terran play (at the time of 2010, it was thought to be impossible). After him came MKP, who changed TvZ forever with his series against Kyrix. His micro skills demonstrated that Terran would be the "cost-efficient" race and the tempo controller for most of WoL. He also pushed forward the strategy of base trade style TvT, which largely fell out of favor until the introduction of speedvacs. Polt distinguished himself as a master of tactical engagement. His ideas on strategic and tactical engagement were so important that they are still a large aspect of modern day TvP and TvT. MMA proved that high aggression, multi-pronged harass was not only viable but beneficial and sometimes superior to large army engagements.
By 2012, the Summer of TaeJa had begun. In it we saw a player unlike any other Terran emerge. Terran at its core is an aggressive race. Things like larvae inject, creep spread, chrono boost, storm and collosus meant that Terran had to attack early on; otherwise, Zerg/Protoss could build up their economy and upgrades and parlay those advantages into far superior armies. TaeJa was the lone exception to the rule. He certainly played aggressive if the situation warranted it, but his general gameplay was based around a defensive macro based Terran style. He excelled at using his superior strategic vision and insane game sense to come out on top at any point of the game.
After him came the single most influential Terran player of HotS. Instead of winning off of one concentrated swoop, a slow siege, or thousands of pinpricks, INnoVation created and perfected an autonomous war machine style of Terran aggression. His style relentlessly battered its opponent into submission with unceasing reinforcement and mechanical superiority, properties boosted by the power of the widow mine and speedvacs. INnoVation was so successful that his approach was slowly absorbed by the scene via osmosis, becoming the framework for all modern Terran play. But half way through he was hit by major nerfs to his favorite toys, leaving a large gap that was to be taken by Maru. He was a player who took cute little micro tricks to the extreme: Maru used single marauders to negate collosus army AoE, and dropped 8 marines on top of collossi to snipe them. He posited the idea of mass MMM + widow mine parade pushes against Protoss pre-buff and made it work. His insane battle engagement, strange builds and incredible series planning made him the only relevant Terran in Korea during the Blink Era.
Until the end of 2011, MC was the only Protoss worth mentioning in WoL. His strategies, mindsets, all-ins and series planning have fundamentally shaped the way players look at and play as Protoss. The only other memorable Korean Protoss from that time period was PartinG, who popularized 2 base high templar as a viable opener against Terran. After that Protoss was ruled by triumvirates. Initially it was PartinG, Squirtle and Seed, three players whose builds are still used to this day (Soul Train, 2 base colossus/stalker all-in, and fast 3 nexus -> mass blink PvZ respectively). Then it was Rain, Creator and PartinG. Rain mapped out all of PvP to the point where passive macro play was possible to execute on a consistent basis; Creator introduced double forge builds to both PvZ and PvT; PartinG mastered the Spirit Bomb and made the Soul Train a default build in PvZ. No Protoss ruled the race alone until Dear walked the double royal road at the end of 2013. His astounding reign was short-lived as Zest rose up over the corpses of the entire SKT team to rule. His kingship is even more impressive when you consider how strong the Protoss field was in 2014. Although PartinG, Rain, sOs, herO and Classic all had a major presence, they could not match his stability.
Similarly, NesTea was the incarnation of the Swarm at the beginning of WoL. He was the first to understand the larvae mechanic and what it implied for Zerg as a race. As a result he codified ling/bling/muta in ZvT, heavily influenced the ZvP meta with cheeses and tech transitions alike, and delineated all the relevant permutations of ZvZ. Soon afterwards DongRaeGu succeeded him, symbolically receiving the torch by defeating Nestea in one of the greatest ZvZ battles of all time on Antiga Shipyard. The neo-Dong did not establish as much groundwork for future Zergs but demonstrated superior tactical execution and mechanics, pushing the ling/bane/muta composition to its limit. Then came Life, a player who changed the fundamental dynamics of ZvT and ZvZ. While he is most famous for his zergling micro Life quietly introduced breakthroughs in terms of counterattacks, pressure timings, and larvae management. His off-tempo larvae usage capitalized on timings and weaknesses in other players' builds, which were buttressed by a zenith of calm that has only ever been equaled by Stephano. His reign, though long and memorable, inevitably ended after his loss of interest in the game and lack of practice. And in that vacuum came Soulkey, the best Zerg player in 2013 and one of the greatest defensive players the world has ever seen. In turn he was one-upped by soO in 2014; despite never winning a finals soO has now reached 4 consecutive GSL Finals, a feat unmatched in all of SC2.
Yet there is one player who still stands above the rest. One who, without a result to speak of in nearly 1.5 years, still looms over the SC2 scene like a specter. His achievements are more than numerical, though those are still by far the most impressive of any player: 4 GSLs, 2 GSL silvers, a double Triple Crown, and 9 premier victories overall. For nearly 2 years, he ruled with undisputed dominance in a game where most players are only able to hold such a spot for a week or a month. His reign was a paradox. At times he was both the strongest champion and the biggest underdog. In 2011 he defeated everyone with preternatural mechanics and strategy borrowed from his Brood War roots; in 2012, he beat everyone with all-new strategies and sheer will power. His series planning, tenacity, comebacks, and unrelenting drive to win were the very essence of SC2 competition.
Three months ago I posited that the entirety of GSL is driven by pure systemic egotism. It is the pursuit of victory against all odds. It is the fall of YugiOh and the redemption of Stork, it is the unending dream to be a Champion and the unending ambition to become the greatest there ever was. To occupy that empty throne Mvp left vacant, to become an even greater Champion than Mvp was.
And now time is running out. Blizzard announced the newest expansion at 2014 Blizzcon and detailed how Legacy of the Void would be a complete overhaul. Whereas HotS was essentially an add-on of units/spells and some balance tweaks to WoL, LotV would upend all the old conventions. What little they showed us was a complete overhaul of everything. There were new units that had the potential to change entire matchups, significant redesigns of old units like the Swarm Host, and fundamental alterations in economic design. If the promises come to fruition LotV will be a completely different game, as different as BW was to SC or TFT was to RoC. At that point, the book will have closed as the differences between LotV and HotS/WoL could be so large that comparing the success of players from one to the other would be nonsensical.
If this is the case, 2015 will be the last year for any player to catch up or surpass Mvp’s achievements in this era. And the stage has been set perfectly. Almost every Korean has been forced back to Korea after the initial diaspora of 2013; the only ones confirmed to not be in Korea are Polt, Violet, ForGG and Hydra. The rest are coming home to roost, making the already hard Korean pool just that much harder. On top of that is the increased LAN presence in Korea for 2015. In 2015 we have 9 confirmed Korean lans: 3 SPOTV Starleagues, 3 KeSPA Cups and 3 GSLs. Assuming there is another Hot6ix and WECG, there will be a total of 11 Korean LANs without even counting the possible IEM/DH lans that could happen. This is the largest amount of Korean LANs we've had since 2011 and it could potentially be more if the rumors of an IEM/DH-style LAN in Korea come true. Here is a list of total Korean LANs per year:
This is the last chance for someone to escape Mvp's shadow, to ascend the throne and rewrite SC2 history in their own name. Given their past results, current form and ignoring the possibility of a new player uniting all 9 titles, there are 5 real contenders to overtake Mvp.
MC: One of the greatest players to ever touch the mouse. He and Polt are arguably the two most consistent players to have ever played in SC2 as both have been top players since 2010. MC has 2 GSL titles under his belt and 1 silver. He has 6 championships, 9 second places and numerous high placing results. While he is the weakest in form among the list, he has proven he can go head to head with anyone at his best.
The Boss returns to Korea
Zest: 2014 has been his year. He spent the first half murdering every SKT player he met, won GSL Season 1, took the Global Championship and conquered KeSPA Cup. He is by consensus the best Protoss in Korea and the best Protoss of the year. His only real weakness is Terran. Considering that Terran are fairly numerous these days, that could be a hard obstacle to overcome.
No one knows what it means, but its provocative.
soO: If soO had won all his finals, we could have already called this a done deal. Instead, soO lost all his finals and became an ever-present reminder of the ineffable difference between what it means to be Mvp and what it means to be Yellow. Despite that, soO has the single best run in history with 4 consecutive GSL Finals. But at this point in his career, winning a finals may feel like an insurmountable task.
Better to fail than get 2nd
Life: The 2014 Blizzcon winner is in similar form compared to his memorable spree at the end of 2012. Life won against all odds as he vanquished Zest and San, fought in a titanic struggle against Taeja and kicked MMA off a cliff. He followed up success by losing out in the Hot6ix qualifiers and getting to the finals of DHW, where ForGG ran him down with hellions, hellbats and banshees. Life’s biggest hurdle to taking the throne will be rigor. Life’s career has seen him rise to the top for a few months, before going back down due to disinterest and a lack of practice.
Life as we know it
TaeJa: The only player on this list to have never even made a GSL Finals. His claim to fame is that he has won the most premier tournaments in all of SC2 (11 total). He is one of the most feared players on earth, with soO, Solar, Life and Zest all naming him as one of their most feared opponents. He is a weekend LAN monster, but often suffers in long preparation matches. He is the least likely to succeed Mvp. Beyond his weakness in GSL format tournaments, he’s also only delaying his retirement because the Korean military draft list is currently full. He’s already expressed contentment with what he’s accomplished so far in SC2, and it seems like he’s participating in GSL as a part-time venture before going to the military.
Good read. I'm still sort of surprised that Mvp is barely challenged yet, but maybe someone can do really well this year. There's certainly a lot of opportunity to do so.
On December 12 2014 12:02 MiniFotToss wrote: What? Rain/Flash/Solar aren't on the Contender list and Taeja is???
None of them have dominated for any period of time. Sure, they have all been extremely strong players, but they were never the best player in the world for more than maybe a few days.
No Rain? Most consistent - always top 3 - toss since 2012-present.
And almost achieved the only double royal road ever back in 2012, simultaneously ripping through OSL (which he won) and GSL (barely lost to Mvp in the semifinals). Great article - but it just doesn't adequately represent the sheer level of continuous dominance shown by Rain from the moment he started playing SC2 and still going strong.
If Taeja's summer run in 2012 would have just lasted a month or two longer, he would be right up there with mvp.. He was so dominate, that was such an awesome story to follow
Thank you for a very well written article, even though the ending felt rather abrupt.
I don't think anyone but soO or Zest is likely to do something to close the gap to Mvp. There's too much talent in Korea, too many good players with too much information on those who are best.
Personally, I think Life is the most likely to succeed Mvp out of this bunch. Zest is easily the top player of 2014, but Life in the long run has proven his consistency. He's continuously reinvented himself and is one of the greatest reactionary players ever seen. Along with a gsl title (2 if Blizzard Cup counts) he's gaining on Taeja's record of 11 Premieres. Not to mention he has the huge advantage of youth.
On December 12 2014 12:02 MiniFotToss wrote: What? Rain/Flash/Solar aren't on the Contender list and Taeja is???
Are you serious? Even where Taeja is at his worst (gsl and preparation tournaments) none of that bunch except Rain has gone as far as Taeja has nor as many times. None of them even come close to his number of premiere wins. None of them have proven as consistent as Taeja who's been at worst a mid-tier Terran and at best the best player in the world their entire sc2 career (going back to 2011). In just shear peak gameplay I'd even give the advantage to Taeja. Finally, none of them can even touch Taeja in 2014 results. So yes, Taeja is a contender and they're not.
What we would be incredible would be if we had someone magically ascend like Life did back in 2012 from obscurity and proceed to claim this throne. That would be fucking epic.
Of the people in the list, I'd say that Zest and soO are the weakest (right now at least, they could recover) because they are both in near unrecoverable slumps. They are good, but not as good as they could be. Look at recent things like SSL qualifiers, Blizzcon and the Hot6 Cup. It's almost unbelievable how players that achieve things like 4 consecutive GSL finals and 3 Korean tournament wins can fall this hard. I really wish the best for Zest and soO. I hope they can recover from their deep slumps. Their play is fun to watch.
Another contender I'd mention is sOs. Just like Mvp, I'd say that he's by far the best at mapping out series, and pulling out clutch wins when needed. Tailed off a bit last year, but if he wins big this year, then Hot6ix cup, 2 world championships, and his 2015 haul will be nothing to sneer at. Only thing he's lacking is consistency.
Lovely writeup stuchiu. You must of swallowed a dictionary in your youth.
..the only ones confirmed to not be in Korea are Polt, Violet, ForGG and Hydra.
Will be interesting to see how this effects the skill gap between Non-Koreans and Koreans.I'm guessing it's going to widen! I can understand Blizzards will to promote local talent around the globe, but I've got this thought in the back of my mind saying 16 Koreans at Blizzcon again.
On December 12 2014 12:43 swag_bro wrote: Of the people in the list, I'd say that Zest and soO are the weakest (right now at least, they could recover) because they are both in near unrecoverable slumps. They are good, but not as good as they could be. Look at recent things like SSL qualifiers, Blizzcon and the Hot6 Cup. It's almost unbelievable how players that achieve things like 4 consecutive GSL finals and 3 Korean tournament wins can fall this hard. I really wish the best for Zest and soO. I hope they can recover from their deep slumps. Their play is fun to watch.
soO and to a lesser extend Zest always felt to me like they are good against people they know rather well. So they might both have a really hard time now with so many people returning to the Korean region, that usually have their own style. At least in the beginning of this year Zest and soO could have problems, maybe even longer with so many top players bunched together the meta will have a rocket on its back.
I want MC to make it or no one though so I am biased.
Koreans never should have been allowed out of Korea. I just want to slap Blizzard across the face every time someone reminds me they recently decided to do a region lock. It's one thing to do something stupid that makes no sense, but then not to commit to it and change your mind and do the smart thing everyone with a brain told you to do without admitting you were wrong in the first place is immature and classless.
And that puts MC in a weird spot, I don't think he really belongs on this list despite my love for him because he wasn't in Korea. Life is the best player, but I don't think anyone in the world will be able to touch MVP's achievements, there are too many good players, and the game is too volatile now. Say what you will about WOL, but the reason we had more consistent champions was because the game required more skill. The Widow Mine, Photon Overcharge and Swarm Hosts do not allow the greatests players in the world to display their skills.
Can someone explain to me why Taeja is shrugged off from succeeding Mvp? I have to admit I didn't watch a lot of Korean SC2 when Mvp was dominating. But surely, Taeja's last 2 years have been pretty dominating are they not?
On December 12 2014 14:27 Brutaxilos wrote: Can someone explain to me why Taeja is shrugged off from succeeding Mvp? I have to admit I didn't watch a lot of Korean SC2 when Mvp was dominating. But surely, Taeja's last 2 years have been pretty dominating are they not?
On December 12 2014 14:27 Brutaxilos wrote: Can someone explain to me why Taeja is shrugged off from succeeding Mvp? I have to admit I didn't watch a lot of Korean SC2 when Mvp was dominating. But surely, Taeja's last 2 years have been pretty dominating are they not?
I love TL players and highly against the prevalent korean-scene-best-scene mentality, but still I wouldn't say Taeja's career come close to being comparable to MVP's.
On December 12 2014 12:43 swag_bro wrote: Of the people in the list, I'd say that Zest and soO are the weakest (right now at least, they could recover) because they are both in near unrecoverable slumps. They are good, but not as good as they could be. Look at recent things like SSL qualifiers, Blizzcon and the Hot6 Cup. It's almost unbelievable how players that achieve things like 4 consecutive GSL finals and 3 Korean tournament wins can fall this hard. I really wish the best for Zest and soO. I hope they can recover from their deep slumps. Their play is fun to watch.
soO and to a lesser extend Zest always felt to me like they are good against people they know rather well. So they might both have a really hard time now with so many people returning to the Korean region, that usually have their own style. At least in the beginning of this year Zest and soO could have problems, maybe even longer with so many top players bunched together the meta will have a rocket on its back.
I want MC to make it or no one though so I am biased.
If MC ever wins a GSL ever again, I will buy all current active and future TL (only the SC2 forums) users TL+.
On December 12 2014 12:49 thecrazymunchkin wrote: Jesus, stop being so good stuchiu.
Another contender I'd mention is sOs. Just like Mvp, I'd say that he's by far the best at mapping out series, and pulling out clutch wins when needed. Tailed off a bit last year, but if he wins big this year, then Hot6ix cup, 2 world championships, and his 2015 haul will be nothing to sneer at. Only thing he's lacking is consistency.
It's amazing how underrated/under appreciated sOs has been in sc2. Right from the initial kespa cross over he was one of the best protoss players and this past year, when he "underperformed," he tied for most wins in proleague. Everyone remembers his IEM and WCS global victories, and of course he just won hot6, but even before those he won both the asian indoor martial arts tournament and the kr qualifier for it. This is on top of 2nd at wcs season 1 and redbull ny, and iirc a top 4 in wcs kr.
He may cheese a lot, but imo he's been the most innovative protoss player in all of hots and has routinely impressed me with his multitasking more than any other p.
On December 12 2014 12:49 thecrazymunchkin wrote: Jesus, stop being so good stuchiu.
Another contender I'd mention is sOs. Just like Mvp, I'd say that he's by far the best at mapping out series, and pulling out clutch wins when needed. Tailed off a bit last year, but if he wins big this year, then Hot6ix cup, 2 world championships, and his 2015 haul will be nothing to sneer at. Only thing he's lacking is consistency.
It's amazing how underrated/under appreciated sOs has been in sc2. Right from the initial kespa cross over he was one of the best protoss players and this past year, when he "underperformed," he tied for most wins in proleague. Everyone remembers his IEM and WCS global victories, and of course he just won hot6, but even before those he won both the asian indoor martial arts tournament and the kr qualifier for it. This is on top of 2nd at wcs season 1 and redbull ny, and iirc a top 4 in wcs kr.
He may cheese a lot, but imo he's been the most innovative protoss player in all of hots and has routinely impressed me with his multitasking more than any other p.
His only problem is his consistency. One day hes winning a hundred grand the next he's getting rekt in another tourney. He hasn't really had a sustained period of doing really well ala Zest or soO. Everyone loves him though :D
Also obligatory 2015 year of FlaSh post. He got dis.
sOs doesn't care unless the prize pool is over 10k. Dreamhack? fuck this. Online Tourney? Fuck this. Chance to take 100k in foreigner money, done. easy 18k for no work, done. He literally has no fucks to give
On December 12 2014 12:49 thecrazymunchkin wrote: Jesus, stop being so good stuchiu.
Another contender I'd mention is sOs. Just like Mvp, I'd say that he's by far the best at mapping out series, and pulling out clutch wins when needed. Tailed off a bit last year, but if he wins big this year, then Hot6ix cup, 2 world championships, and his 2015 haul will be nothing to sneer at. Only thing he's lacking is consistency.
It's amazing how underrated/under appreciated sOs has been in sc2. Right from the initial kespa cross over he was one of the best protoss players and this past year, when he "underperformed," he tied for most wins in proleague. Everyone remembers his IEM and WCS global victories, and of course he just won hot6, but even before those he won both the asian indoor martial arts tournament and the kr qualifier for it. This is on top of 2nd at wcs season 1 and redbull ny, and iirc a top 4 in wcs kr.
He may cheese a lot, but imo he's been the most innovative protoss player in all of hots and has routinely impressed me with his multitasking more than any other p.
His only problem is his consistency. One day hes winning a hundred grand the next he's getting rekt in another tourney. He hasn't really had a sustained period of doing really well ala Zest or soO. Everyone loves him though :D
Also obligatory 2015 year of FlaSh post. He got dis.
Picture the scene:
November 2015. Flash has cleaned up in Korea, winning 3 consecutive GSLs. He goes to Blizzcon as the undisputed best player in the world, reclaiming his throne at the top of the starcraft scene. Sweeps through to the finals with ease. sOs 4-0 within 1 hour. The tears would be legendary
On December 12 2014 12:20 Jazzman88 wrote: What we would be incredible would be if we had someone magically ascend like Life did back in 2012 from obscurity and proceed to claim this throne. That would be fucking epic.
Someone did magically ascend, in 2014. This one dude who got pretty regular play in Proleague, but had never even been in Code A before. He then won 1 GSL, made Top 4 in another, made Top 8 in yet another, and a few other pretty good achievements over the course of the year.
On December 12 2014 12:20 Jazzman88 wrote: What we would be incredible would be if we had someone magically ascend like Life did back in 2012 from obscurity and proceed to claim this throne. That would be fucking epic.
Someone did magically ascend, in 2014. This one dude who got pretty regular play in Proleague, but had never even been in Code A before. He then won 1 GSL, made Top 4 in another, made Top 8 in yet another, and a few other pretty good achievements over the course of the year.
On December 12 2014 15:48 Gorilla23 wrote: Decent amount of talk about players being so close to Mvp in the comments. I'm going to disagree. No one is close.
A lot of it is potential at the moment.
Is anyone close to Mvp's legacy at this moment? No Could anyone winning a shitton in 2015 move alongside him? Yes
Great article, however, don't you think it may be a bit unrealistic to expect MC to be able to conquer Korea in 2015? At this point, I'd say MKP is more likely.
On December 12 2014 12:49 thecrazymunchkin wrote: Jesus, stop being so good stuchiu.
Another contender I'd mention is sOs. Just like Mvp, I'd say that he's by far the best at mapping out series, and pulling out clutch wins when needed. Tailed off a bit last year, but if he wins big this year, then Hot6ix cup, 2 world championships, and his 2015 haul will be nothing to sneer at. Only thing he's lacking is consistency.
It's amazing how underrated/under appreciated sOs has been in sc2. Right from the initial kespa cross over he was one of the best protoss players and this past year, when he "underperformed," he tied for most wins in proleague. Everyone remembers his IEM and WCS global victories, and of course he just won hot6, but even before those he won both the asian indoor martial arts tournament and the kr qualifier for it. This is on top of 2nd at wcs season 1 and redbull ny, and iirc a top 4 in wcs kr.
He may cheese a lot, but imo he's been the most innovative protoss player in all of hots and has routinely impressed me with his multitasking more than any other p.
His only problem is his consistency. One day hes winning a hundred grand the next he's getting rekt in another tourney. He hasn't really had a sustained period of doing really well ala Zest or soO. Everyone loves him though :D
Also obligatory 2015 year of FlaSh post. He got dis.
Picture the scene:
November 2015. Flash has cleaned up in Korea, winning 3 consecutive GSLs. He goes to Blizzcon as the undisputed best player in the world, reclaiming his throne at the top of the starcraft scene. Sweeps through to the finals with ease. sOs 4-0 within 1 hour. The tears would be legendary
Thank you for this article. I am excited. I hope to renew my passion for waking up at GMT -5 so that I can watch all these Korean LANs again. I miss MVP. I still remember seeing him shred Nestea's army at Blizzcon 2011 with his ghosts. pewpewpew
On December 12 2014 15:57 Dodgin wrote: Life is the closest, he will get there some day.
Life has already won 8 golds in his career. Not 8 of the shabbiest, either. I completely agree that in 10 years time or whatever, when he finally retires for military service, he will have surpassed Mvp without doubt.
MC for MVP successor? Isn't there a rule that you've got to be physically able to play a 3 base game to be a bonjwa? Lol.
I'm baffled that Zest would get a nod over Innovation. Inno has 2 premier wins and 8 2-4th places. Zest has 3 premier wins and 3 2-4th places. I'd argue that Inno's result is superior, and on top of that, Inno has been playing at this level since late 2012, more than twice as long as Zest has been relevant in any capacity. So I'd say Inno is already closer to dethroning MVP than Zest is (still not very close, mind)... but we're not even talking about the now, we're talking about 2015. Innovation's results are going to stay in the ro8+ range, and Zest is going to stop getting so deep into tournaments because A) more Terrans and B) fewer Protoss.
Life, Taeja, Innovation, soO, Zest seem like the most likely successors, in that order.
Nah seriously great article in typical stuchiu fashion, thanks for the read
On December 12 2014 15:48 Gorilla23 wrote: Decent amount of talk about players being so close to Mvp in the comments. I'm going to disagree. No one is close.
Err if soO had won his four GSL finals he would be rightfully considered at least close to Mvp. So there's a real potential for someone to be close.
On December 12 2014 12:49 thecrazymunchkin wrote: Jesus, stop being so good stuchiu.
Another contender I'd mention is sOs. Just like Mvp, I'd say that he's by far the best at mapping out series, and pulling out clutch wins when needed. Tailed off a bit last year, but if he wins big this year, then Hot6ix cup, 2 world championships, and his 2015 haul will be nothing to sneer at. Only thing he's lacking is consistency.
It's amazing how underrated/under appreciated sOs has been in sc2. Right from the initial kespa cross over he was one of the best protoss players and this past year, when he "underperformed," he tied for most wins in proleague. Everyone remembers his IEM and WCS global victories, and of course he just won hot6, but even before those he won both the asian indoor martial arts tournament and the kr qualifier for it. This is on top of 2nd at wcs season 1 and redbull ny, and iirc a top 4 in wcs kr.
He may cheese a lot, but imo he's been the most innovative protoss player in all of hots and has routinely impressed me with his multitasking more than any other p.
His only problem is his consistency. One day hes winning a hundred grand the next he's getting rekt in another tourney. He hasn't really had a sustained period of doing really well ala Zest or soO. Everyone loves him though :D
Also obligatory 2015 year of FlaSh post. He got dis.
Picture the scene:
November 2015. Flash has cleaned up in Korea, winning 3 consecutive GSLs. He goes to Blizzcon as the undisputed best player in the world, reclaiming his throne at the top of the starcraft scene. Sweeps through to the finals with ease. sOs 4-0 within 1 hour. The tears would be legendary
If this happens my life will be complete.
I would pay money for that. he can have my $5 contribution to another 100k and a 3rd necklace for his mom.
On December 12 2014 16:38 pure.Wasted wrote: MC for MVP successor? Isn't there a rule that you've got to be physically able to play a 3 base game to be a bonjwa? Lol.
I'm baffled that Zest would get a nod over Innovation. Inno has 2 premier wins and 8 2-4th places. Zest has 3 premier wins and 3 2-4th places. I'd argue that Inno's result is superior, and on top of that, Inno has been playing at this level since late 2012, more than twice as long as Zest has been relevant in any capacity. So I'd say Inno is already closer to dethroning MVP than Zest is (still not very close, mind)... but we're not even talking about the now, we're talking about 2015. Innovation's results are going to stay in the ro8+ range, and Zest is going to stop getting so deep into tournaments because A) more Terrans and B) fewer Protoss.
Life, Taeja, Innovation, soO, Zest seem like the most likely successors, in that order.
Great read.
To be fair, you can flip that the other way round; Zest has achieved just as much as INno in a shorter timeframe. Since he became relevant in SC2, he's been super-consistent while also winning. INno's had periods of dominance, but also a long patch of relative mediocrity.
I'd love him to dominate 2015, but you've got to say that Zest is favoured
I disagree with the notion that Mvp is far enough ahead of Life and Taeja to warrant distinction. Mvp's result sheet may be the best of any player, but Taeja and especially Life are so close that Mvp is no longer considered better because of his results but because of some abstract "champion's essence". I can accept Mvp's being placed above Life and Taeja by merit of his achievements, but I'm hesitant to buy into the view of Mvp as untouchable. His career is being viewed through rose-tinted glasses.
On December 12 2014 16:38 pure.Wasted wrote: MC for MVP successor? Isn't there a rule that you've got to be physically able to play a 3 base game to be a bonjwa? Lol.
I'm baffled that Zest would get a nod over Innovation. Inno has 2 premier wins and 8 2-4th places. Zest has 3 premier wins and 3 2-4th places. I'd argue that Inno's result is superior, and on top of that, Inno has been playing at this level since late 2012, more than twice as long as Zest has been relevant in any capacity. So I'd say Inno is already closer to dethroning MVP than Zest is (still not very close, mind)... but we're not even talking about the now, we're talking about 2015. Innovation's results are going to stay in the ro8+ range, and Zest is going to stop getting so deep into tournaments because A) more Terrans and B) fewer Protoss.
Life, Taeja, Innovation, soO, Zest seem like the most likely successors, in that order.
Great read.
To be fair, you can flip that the other way round; Zest has achieved just as much as INno in a shorter timeframe. Since he became relevant in SC2, he's been super-consistent while also winning. INno's had periods of dominance, but also a long patch of relative mediocrity.
I'd love him to dominate 2015, but you've got to say that Zest is favoured
Zest hasn't achieved as much as Inno, he has exactly half of Innovation's top 4 placements in almost exactly half of the time being relevant.
Zest is only favored if you think that SC2 is magical and anything can happen. Inno's relative mediocrity is directly tied to every single Terran except Maru, Polt, and Taeja being a worthless lump throughout the first half of 2014. Zest's powerhouse performance in the first half of 2014 is directly tied to how many Zerg and especially Protoss (his best MUs by far) he got to fight. There aren't going to be that many Zerg and Protoss running rampant in 2015 by virtue of Terran being alive again. So unless Zest really cleans up his PvT (by getting really dirty) he's in pretty big trouble.
I like Zest, he's probably tied for my second fav Protoss with Rain. I want him to do well in 2015 and in all likelihood he will. But 2014 was a very unique circumstance.
On December 12 2014 16:56 Zealously wrote: I disagree with the notion that Mvp is far enough ahead of Life and Taeja to warrant distinction. Mvp's result sheet may be the best of any player, but Taeja and especially Life are so close that Mvp is no longer considered better because of his results but because of some abstract "champion's essence". I can accept Mvp's being placed above Life and Taeja by merit of his achievements, but I'm hesitant to buy into the view of Mvp as untouchable. His career is being viewed through rose-tinted glasses.
MVP has 4 wins in the hardest tournament in the world. 2 seconds in it aswell along with all the IEM/MLG/whatever else he won. In most people's eyes winning the hard tournament carries alot more weight than winning the easier ones.
These days Dreamhack and IEM share alot in common with Code S in terms of player quality so you look at the formats. GSL is a preparation for a series and the other are weekend mass gaming lans. In GSL your opponent also gets to prepare for you. That should make the series alot tougher so, at least in my opinion, the win is more meaningful.
On December 12 2014 16:56 Zealously wrote: I disagree with the notion that Mvp is far enough ahead of Life and Taeja to warrant distinction. Mvp's result sheet may be the best of any player, but Taeja and especially Life are so close that Mvp is no longer considered better because of his results but because of some abstract "champion's essence". I can accept Mvp's being placed above Life and Taeja by merit of his achievements, but I'm hesitant to buy into the view of Mvp as untouchable. His career is being viewed through rose-tinted glasses.
Taeja's achievements are nowhere near Mvp's or Life's, he still hasn't been able to win a GSL/WCS tournament
On December 12 2014 16:56 Zealously wrote: I disagree with the notion that Mvp is far enough ahead of Life and Taeja to warrant distinction. Mvp's result sheet may be the best of any player, but Taeja and especially Life are so close that Mvp is no longer considered better because of his results but because of some abstract "champion's essence". I can accept Mvp's being placed above Life and Taeja by merit of his achievements, but I'm hesitant to buy into the view of Mvp as untouchable. His career is being viewed through rose-tinted glasses.
The difficult part in my eyes is that the scenes are so vastly different. Mvp's run of tournaments was more consistent than anything that's been put together since, soO excluded. But that ignores the fact that there are so many weekend lans and online cups now than ever before - it would be exponentially harder to achieve that same level of consistency with the same travel requirements as TaeJa and Life go through. It's impossible to say how present day TaeJa would do in the 2011 environment, and equally impossible to comment on how Mvp might have done in the ultra-hectic scene we've got today prior to his broken body.
On December 12 2014 16:56 Zealously wrote: I disagree with the notion that Mvp is far enough ahead of Life and Taeja to warrant distinction. Mvp's result sheet may be the best of any player, but Taeja and especially Life are so close that Mvp is no longer considered better because of his results but because of some abstract "champion's essence". I can accept Mvp's being placed above Life and Taeja by merit of his achievements, but I'm hesitant to buy into the view of Mvp as untouchable. His career is being viewed through rose-tinted glasses.
Taeja's achievements are nowhere near Mvp's or Life's, he still hasn't been able to win a GSL/WCS tournament
And HSC generally has the weakest playerpool, of which he has won 3 or something.
The takeaway from this article is that the Premier title is given out too freely to SC2 tournaments. When there are 36 tourneys of the same class per year, it's time to separate the chaff from the wheat.
Mvp has become the symbol of what it means to be a champion in SC2. Mvp is the one true king. He had it all whether it's his reign of terror or his struggling to win the championship and ultimately he won it all.
MVP got lucky. He was dominant in a period when the best players were still playing BW. It all depends if Lotv comes with gimmicky units or not like Hots.
On December 12 2014 16:56 Zealously wrote: I disagree with the notion that Mvp is far enough ahead of Life and Taeja to warrant distinction. Mvp's result sheet may be the best of any player, but Taeja and especially Life are so close that Mvp is no longer considered better because of his results but because of some abstract "champion's essence". I can accept Mvp's being placed above Life and Taeja by merit of his achievements, but I'm hesitant to buy into the view of Mvp as untouchable. His career is being viewed through rose-tinted glasses.
you also have to consider that Mvp's reign came when people had little understanding of the game and almost no experience in the late game, hence why HuK was so sucessful, Mvp was able to counter peoples inexperience with his ability to outplay you in long series thats why he was successful. However I would argue as well that at their peaks Life, TaeJa, even DRG and Rain all were def better than Mvp
On December 12 2014 16:56 Zealously wrote: I disagree with the notion that Mvp is far enough ahead of Life and Taeja to warrant distinction. Mvp's result sheet may be the best of any player, but Taeja and especially Life are so close that Mvp is no longer considered better because of his results but because of some abstract "champion's essence". I can accept Mvp's being placed above Life and Taeja by merit of his achievements, but I'm hesitant to buy into the view of Mvp as untouchable. His career is being viewed through rose-tinted glasses.
Taeja's achievements are nowhere near Mvp's or Life's, he still hasn't been able to win a GSL/WCS tournament
And HSC generally has the weakest playerpool, of which he has won 3 or something.
Anyway, the article was a fantastic read, thanks!
Whilst i def agree consider the fact that whilst TaeJa is no GSL elite, no GSL elite has done what he has Life on a lower degree is a hybrid of both as is MC...and Mvp won 4 GSLs which being the toughest tournament makes people think good of him.
On December 12 2014 12:43 swag_bro wrote: Of the people in the list, I'd say that Zest and soO are the weakest (right now at least, they could recover) because they are both in near unrecoverable slumps. They are good, but not as good as they could be. Look at recent things like SSL qualifiers, Blizzcon and the Hot6 Cup. It's almost unbelievable how players that achieve things like 4 consecutive GSL finals and 3 Korean tournament wins can fall this hard. I really wish the best for Zest and soO. I hope they can recover from their deep slumps. Their play is fun to watch.
soO and to a lesser extend Zest always felt to me like they are good against people they know rather well. So they might both have a really hard time now with so many people returning to the Korean region, that usually have their own style. At least in the beginning of this year Zest and soO could have problems, maybe even longer with so many top players bunched together the meta will have a rocket on its back.
I want MC to make it or no one though so I am biased.
If MC ever wins a GSL ever again, I will buy all current active and future TL (only the SC2 forums) users TL+.
Quoted for future reference :D
You can never count out MC, he is always dangerous. I'd love to see MC make it deep into 2015 GSLs. Hope he sees your post and gets even more motivated.
I think only DRG and Life are eligible future bonjwas, but neither of them hold a candle to what i think it takes to be a bonjwa \= Taeja is, too, despite a lack of korean participation. Seeing Zest and soO mentioned is pretty silly, though.
And MVP played terran during a terran dominant era of SC2 in its least balanced state :D
I don't think we'll be having a bonjwa, I think there is something fundamentally different about this game that explains why.
I've been into SC2 scene only after watching Life beat 'God' at some MLG tournament last year. What little I've seen of MVP throughout HotS hasn't been overly impressive. It seems to me that HotS is a lot more difficult game to play than WoL (for better or for worse what with all the random factors) and MVP stayed at the same level while everyone else improved.
On December 12 2014 19:21 ReMinD_ wrote: I've been into SC2 scene only after watching Life beat 'God' at some MLG tournament last year. What little I've seen of MVP throughout HotS hasn't been overly impressive. It seems to me that HotS is a lot more difficult game to play than WoL (for better or for worse what with all the random factors) and MVP stayed at the same level while everyone else improved.
You couldn't be more wrong my friend
Do yourself a favor, go watch MVP vs Squirtle and MVP vs Nestea GSL finals
back on topic, I think that if INnoVation was to win like 2-3 GSL/S2SL he could be called the king of HotS, he's not there yet but he can achieve this...
I don't post here much anymore but damn do I still read and watch me some Sc2, super excited for 2015. Thinking I'll have to do another trip to Seoul, one of the finals ends up the week of my birthday...
On December 12 2014 19:05 p14c wrote: MVP got lucky. He was dominant in a period when the best players were still playing BW. It all depends if Lotv comes with gimmicky units or not like Hots.
The best players like Life, Taeja, San, Parting, Marineking, MC? There's a long list of players that were nothing or didnt even play in Brood War that have won tournaments since the KESPA switch, so this argument holds little merit
really enjoyed the read, I hope that Mvp not participating in yesterday's qualifier means he's finally taking care of his health. If he can comeback, he'll dominate LotV just like he did for WoL, "winner gonna win"
2015 is going to be great, and while I do wish for a strong contender to rise and win multiple tournaments (Zest is my bet) I would be happy if no one beats Mvp's record. That guy will live forever.
On December 12 2014 19:05 p14c wrote: MVP got lucky. He was dominant in a period when the best players were still playing BW. It all depends if Lotv comes with gimmicky units or not like Hots.
The best players like Life, Taeja, San, Parting, Marineking, MC? There's a long list of players that were nothing or didnt even play in Brood War that have won tournaments since the KESPA switch, so this argument holds little merit
Also MC was apparently just on the verge on becomming a good bw player before his switch to WoL.
I think we have to kind of let go of the "bw is the king of rts" argument. It is a great game but sc2 has long surpassed it by now which is also mentioned in the article.
I even dare to say that this is true for the depth of SC2 as an rts as well. BW was a great pioneer in both esports and as a RTS and it shaped the way we think about strategy games and tactics in general. But the things that got discovered in the BW era are long incorporated in the way ppl play SC2. From the way in which Grrr, Boxer and later July made units magically being worth more than they are supposed to, to the way iloveoov, nada and saviour focussed on macro and economy to the multitasking and agression of bisu and jaedong to the perfection of builds and series of flash: These are all things that got injected into SC2 by now as well.
SC2 is such a big success not only because of that but also because Blizzard managed to make the game more accessible and more balanced while adding an extremely solid ecosystem around it with the new replay, matchmaking and editor technologies. The article criticises them for being too impatient with balance changes which is a very good point but this and the announcements they made for LotV show that they truly care about their game which is clearly the new king of RTS.
Also this article really hypes me as an esport fan. I hope we will see a similar surge in competition in other parts of the world due to the region lock. Even though I don't mind watching only koreans battling it out (I'am also a great fan of all the english casters in Korea) I think it is really cool when there is more competitive tension within and between more regions of the world.
I'am really glad and proud to be part of this community.
On December 12 2014 19:51 LeLfe wrote: really enjoyed the read, I hope that Mvp not participating in yesterday's qualifier means he's finally taking care of his health. If he can comeback, he'll dominate LotV just like he did for WoL, "winner gonna win"
To be fair, as much as I'd love a comeback, I'd prefer it if he just got to live a normal life without a broken body. Better than wrecking himself trying to have a last stab at G5L
On G5L actually, I think they should give it to soO if he gets another consecutive silver
On December 12 2014 11:21 stuchiu wrote: Beyond that are the relative importance of patches to both games. Like I mentioned before, Brood War was remarkable (by today's standards) for the off-hands approach of its developer. After patch 1.08, all "balance" issues were left up to players and mapmakers to tackle. By contrast, SC2 patches are almost continuous and a reaction to community demands. Sometimes it only took a single definitive series, from San vs sC to Thorzain vs MC, to convince Blizzard's design team that danger was imminent. In most cases the choice was fostered by collective outrage stemmed from frustration.
(...)
To be an SC2 pro is to be subject to the prods of a hundred different influences. A player's success in this age is subject to the whims of balance and maps. No matter what strategy you make, it can be rendered useless by an incoming patch.
Ah, about that. I was looking at it yesterday and (excluding betas of course):
- So far there have been 21 balance patches in SC2 [12 for WoL, 9 for HotS] for a total of 97 changes. - 78% of those changes [76/97] occurred in WoL. Among them, 82% happened in the first year of WoL [62/76]. - There was, on average, 2.5 changes per month in WoL [0.8 change per month past Sept 2011] as opposed to 1.1 change per month in HotS. - The buff/nerf ratio is 1.05 for WoL and 3.2 for HotS. The only "permanent nerfs" in HotS are the 3 ones applied to the MSC [sight range, Time Warp mana cost, Time Warp duration]; the 2 other ones, for the Hellbat and the Mine, have been partially or completely reverted.
Hopefully they learnt from the patch 2.0.12 disaster and, in the future, let the game run its course when it's not in a catastrophic state.
On December 12 2014 19:05 p14c wrote: MVP got lucky. He was dominant in a period when the best players were still playing BW. It all depends if Lotv comes with gimmicky units or not like Hots.
The best players like Life, Taeja, San, Parting, Marineking, MC? There's a long list of players that were nothing or didnt even play in Brood War that have won tournaments since the KESPA switch, so this argument holds little merit
Didn't see any of those players winning anything in Korea after the switch.
On December 12 2014 19:05 p14c wrote: MVP got lucky. He was dominant in a period when the best players were still playing BW. It all depends if Lotv comes with gimmicky units or not like Hots.
The best players like Life, Taeja, San, Parting, Marineking, MC? There's a long list of players that were nothing or didnt even play in Brood War that have won tournaments since the KESPA switch, so this argument holds little merit
Didn't see any of those players winning anything in Korea after the switch.
Its amazing how much you guys are dismissing Life. With all the talk about Zest, soO etc, you people are forgetting Life has a GSL win (against Mvp no less), a Hot6ix cup win and a Blizzcon. Life is the closest in really huge achievements to Mvp. Also Life is the only one during his reign of terror that even remotely evoked that level of shear domination that only Mvp exuded.
On December 12 2014 20:42 Destructicon wrote: Its amazing how much you guys are dismissing Life. With all the talk about Zest, soO etc, you people are forgetting Life has a GSL win (against Mvp no less), a Hot6ix cup win and a Blizzcon. Life is the closest in really huge achievements to Mvp. Also Life is the only one during his reign of terror that even remotely evoked that level of shear domination that only Mvp exuded.
I agree that Life is #2 after Mvp. He just needs to hold a reign of terror longer and and 1-2 more korean tournaments. The same could be said about alot of players though. One thing holds true though Mvp is the king
On December 12 2014 20:42 Destructicon wrote: Its amazing how much you guys are dismissing Life. With all the talk about Zest, soO etc, you people are forgetting Life has a GSL win (against Mvp no less), a Hot6ix cup win and a Blizzcon. Life is the closest in really huge achievements to Mvp. Also Life is the only one during his reign of terror that even remotely evoked that level of shear domination that only Mvp exuded.
I agree that Life is #2 after Mvp. He just needs to hold a reign of terror longer and and 1-2 more korean tournaments. The same could be said about alot of players though. One thing holds true though Mvp is the king
Yep, to me Mvp is still the king. I'd love nothing more then for him to make a brilliant comeback and win a premier Korean tournament in 2015. Preferably that G5L
On December 12 2014 20:42 Destructicon wrote: Its amazing how much you guys are dismissing Life. With all the talk about Zest, soO etc, you people are forgetting Life has a GSL win (against Mvp no less), a Hot6ix cup win and a Blizzcon. Life is the closest in really huge achievements to Mvp. Also Life is the only one during his reign of terror that even remotely evoked that level of shear domination that only Mvp exuded.
I agree that Life is #2 after Mvp. He just needs to hold a reign of terror longer and and 1-2 more korean tournaments. The same could be said about alot of players though. One thing holds true though Mvp is the king
Yep, to me Mvp is still the king. I'd love nothing more then for him to make a brilliant comeback and win a premier Korean tournament in 2015. Preferably that G5L
Versus MKC in the finals. He then retires and we have come full circle
On December 12 2014 20:42 Destructicon wrote: Its amazing how much you guys are dismissing Life. With all the talk about Zest, soO etc, you people are forgetting Life has a GSL win (against Mvp no less), a Hot6ix cup win and a Blizzcon. Life is the closest in really huge achievements to Mvp. Also Life is the only one during his reign of terror that even remotely evoked that level of shear domination that only Mvp exuded.
GSL (includes World Championship, Blizzard Cup): Mvp 4, Life 2 MLG: Mvp 1, Life 2 Dreamhack: Mvp 0, Life 1 IEM: Mvp 1, Life 1 Blizzcon invitational: Mvp 1, Life 0 WCS Global: Mvp 0, Life 1 WCS EU: Mvp 1, Life 0 WCG: Mvp 1, Life 0 Iron Squid: Mvp 0, Life 1
Totals: Mvp 9, Life 8
Top 4
GSL Code A: Mvp 1, Life 0 GSL Code S: Mvp 3, Life 1 Blizzard Cup: Mvp 1, Life 0 IEM: Mvp 1, Life 1 Dreamhack: Mvp 0, Life 2 ASUS ROG: Mvp 0, Life 1 WCS Season Finals: Mvp 1, Life 0
Totals: Mvp 7, Life 5
Looking at results alone, the difference is fairly small. Depending on whether or not we rank WCS Global as equal to a GSL, I could reasonably see Life being Mvp's equal or even superior with one more championship. But obviously, the tournament placings alone aren't what define Mvp which is where I think this discussion comes from in the first place. People see him as a superior being for how he won rather than just that he did.
On December 12 2014 19:05 p14c wrote: MVP got lucky. He was dominant in a period when the best players were still playing BW. It all depends if Lotv comes with gimmicky units or not like Hots.
The best players like Life, Taeja, San, Parting, Marineking, MC? There's a long list of players that were nothing or didnt even play in Brood War that have won tournaments since the KESPA switch, so this argument holds little merit
Didn't see any of those players winning anything in Korea after the switch.
On December 12 2014 19:05 p14c wrote: MVP got lucky. He was dominant in a period when the best players were still playing BW. It all depends if Lotv comes with gimmicky units or not like Hots.
The best players like Life, Taeja, San, Parting, Marineking, MC? There's a long list of players that were nothing or didnt even play in Brood War that have won tournaments since the KESPA switch, so this argument holds little merit
Didn't see any of those players winning anything in Korea after the switch.
10/10, would get baited again
Wasn't a bait, I was just checking out the TLPD ^^
On December 12 2014 20:42 Destructicon wrote: Its amazing how much you guys are dismissing Life. With all the talk about Zest, soO etc, you people are forgetting Life has a GSL win (against Mvp no less), a Hot6ix cup win and a Blizzcon. Life is the closest in really huge achievements to Mvp. Also Life is the only one during his reign of terror that even remotely evoked that level of shear domination that only Mvp exuded.
GSL (includes World Championship, Blizzard Cup): Mvp 4, Life 2 MLG: Mvp 1, Life 2 Dreamhack: Mvp 0, Life 1 IEM: Mvp 1, Life 1 Blizzcon invitational: Mvp 1, Life 0 WCS Global: Mvp 0, Life 1 WCS EU: Mvp 1, Life 0 WCG: Mvp 1, Life 0 Iron Squid: Mvp 0, Life 1
Totals: Mvp 9, Life 8
Top 4
GSL Code A: Mvp 1, Life 0 GSL Code S: Mvp 3, Life 1 Blizzard Cup: Mvp 1, Life 0 IEM: Mvp 1, Life 1 Dreamhack: Mvp 0, Life 2 ASUS ROG: Mvp 0, Life 1 WCS Season Finals: Mvp 1, Life 0
Totals: Mvp 7, Life 5
Looking at results alone, the difference is fairly small. Depending on whether or not we rank WCS Global as equal to a GSL, I could reasonably see Life being Mvp's equal or even superior with one more championship. But obviously, the tournament placings alone aren't what define Mvp which is where I think this discussion comes from in the first place. People see him as a superior being for how he won rather than just that he did.
The simple fact is that people rate gsl way higher than any other tournament. All these weekend tournaments don't count nearly as much. You can agree or disagree with that (i would like to see a good discussion about that) but at the end of the day that is how most people think (and i agree). That is also the reason i don't see Taeja as the best terran, he lacks these big titles. So yeah, next year with 6 gsl like tournaments (ssl + gsl) there is a lot of room to have another "Mvp type" player, let's wait and see what happens. (note: i think weekend tournaments are important too, you have to be good at both to be considered "the best", gsl is just more important)
how should we rate sOs? he simply wins the hardest tournaments that he choses to win. He does however not partake in quite as many and therefore doesn't show extreme consistency like a Zest.
On December 12 2014 22:31 ejozl wrote: how should we rate sOs? he simply wins the hardest tournaments that he choses to win. He does however not partake in quite as many and therefore doesn't show extreme consistency like a Zest.
He does show extreme consistency, just not frequently.
On December 12 2014 22:31 ejozl wrote: how should we rate sOs? he simply wins the hardest tournaments that he choses to win. He does however not partake in quite as many and therefore doesn't show extreme consistency like a Zest.
How does he not play in as many tournaments as Zest?
Fantastic article, a pleasure to read. Congrats stuchiu !
And to me, the player who comes the closest to Mvp is Life, by a good margin. He's to me the best player in the world skill-wise. The only thing he needs is to stop disappearing for 6 months between his periods of complete destruction.
On December 12 2014 22:31 ejozl wrote: how should we rate sOs? he simply wins the hardest tournaments that he choses to win. He does however not partake in quite as many and therefore doesn't show extreme consistency like a Zest.
He does show extreme consistency, just not frequently.
I don't care what happens next year. In my heart there will only ever be one King. And though he's unlikely to ever return, to me he'll always be on the throne.
On December 12 2014 23:30 Starecat wrote: If GSL is a "tournament of so super other world level of playars" why the champion and the runner up where dispatched early on the Blizzcon :3 ?
Because SC2 is a game where all-ins and blind counters are very common.
On December 12 2014 23:30 Starecat wrote: If GSL is a "tournament of so super other world level of playars" why the champion and the runner up where dispatched early on the Blizzcon :3 ?
Because SC2 is a game where all-ins and blind counters are very common.
KeSPA also dispatched the players to Blizzcon just the day before they were supposed to play their respective games.
On December 12 2014 12:20 Jazzman88 wrote: What we would be incredible would be if we had someone magically ascend like Life did back in 2012 from obscurity and proceed to claim this throne. That would be fucking epic.
Someone did magically ascend, in 2014. This one dude who got pretty regular play in Proleague, but had never even been in Code A before. He then won 1 GSL, made Top 4 in another, made Top 8 in yet another, and a few other pretty good achievements over the course of the year.
But not to become the equal of Mvp, which was the point.
On December 12 2014 23:30 Starecat wrote: If GSL is a "tournament of so super other world level of playars" why the champion and the runner up where dispatched early on the Blizzcon :3 ?
Because SC2 is a game where all-ins and blind counters are very common.
They should be used to these strats because they used a ton on GSL finals : ]
Btw is funny how "it is the game fault" when they lose and "hhaha expected" when they win.
great article. i'm not sure if it was intentional or not, but it seemed like WHY mvp was considered the best was kind of passed over. his finals v squirtle and that whole tournament in general was an education in winning.
On December 12 2014 20:42 Destructicon wrote: Its amazing how much you guys are dismissing Life. With all the talk about Zest, soO etc, you people are forgetting Life has a GSL win (against Mvp no less), a Hot6ix cup win and a Blizzcon. Life is the closest in really huge achievements to Mvp. Also Life is the only one during his reign of terror that even remotely evoked that level of shear domination that only Mvp exuded.
GSL (includes World Championship, Blizzard Cup): Mvp 4, Life 2 MLG: Mvp 1, Life 2 Dreamhack: Mvp 0, Life 1 IEM: Mvp 1, Life 1 Blizzcon invitational: Mvp 1, Life 0 WCS Global: Mvp 0, Life 1 WCS EU: Mvp 1, Life 0 WCG: Mvp 1, Life 0 Iron Squid: Mvp 0, Life 1
Totals: Mvp 9, Life 8
Top 4
GSL Code A: Mvp 1, Life 0 GSL Code S: Mvp 3, Life 1 Blizzard Cup: Mvp 1, Life 0 IEM: Mvp 1, Life 1 Dreamhack: Mvp 0, Life 2 ASUS ROG: Mvp 0, Life 1 WCS Season Finals: Mvp 1, Life 0
Totals: Mvp 7, Life 5
Looking at results alone, the difference is fairly small. Depending on whether or not we rank WCS Global as equal to a GSL, I could reasonably see Life being Mvp's equal or even superior with one more championship. But obviously, the tournament placings alone aren't what define Mvp which is where I think this discussion comes from in the first place. People see him as a superior being for how he won rather than just that he did.
This is how I view Mvp to every other Champion. If we were one day attacked by a future alien hoard of superior technology and I had to choose an RTS player to lead us, I'd agree at their 100% state, players like Taeja, Life, Zest at their peak are the guys you'd want.
But if we were attacked by a future alien hoard of superior technology, robots came from the future to enslave us, zombies rose up to eat us, our economy was in shambles, our production on fire and the champion we have has his spine and wrists broken, I choose Mvp over every other player every time. No other Champion has done so much with so little against such odds like broken man Mvp.
It's amazing how much Taeja and life has done with such a specialized way of playing. MVP was different in that he was the complete package, he could play any style, in any manner, the entire arsenal of Terran. That's why he can be so succesful, even when his level of play did not match that of his opponent.
On December 13 2014 01:25 cskalias.pbe wrote: great article. i'm not sure if it was intentional or not, but it seemed like WHY mvp was considered the best was kind of passed over. his finals v squirtle and that whole tournament in general was an education in winning.
Why Chinese LANs are named Korean LANs through the article (WECG, 2012+ WCGs). Also:
2014: 3 GSLs, 1 Global Championship, 1 KeSPA Cup, 1 Hot6ix, 1 WCG (7 total) <- you missed E in WECG. Also if Hangzhou is treated as "Korean LAN" than you might as well include Taiwanese and other Chinese LANs (IEM Shenzhen for example or the one IdrA won in 2011). Finally in 2013 WCS Season Finals where in Korea, Europe and NA - only one was Korean.
On December 12 2014 19:05 p14c wrote: MVP got lucky. He was dominant in a period when the best players were still playing BW. It all depends if Lotv comes with gimmicky units or not like Hots.
The best players like Life, Taeja, San, Parting, Marineking, MC? There's a long list of players that were nothing or didnt even play in Brood War that have won tournaments since the KESPA switch, so this argument holds little merit
Didn't see any of those players winning anything in Korea after the switch.
All of them even San won tournaments after the switch
On December 12 2014 23:30 Starecat wrote: If GSL is a "tournament of so super other world level of playars" why the champion and the runner up where dispatched early on the Blizzcon :3 ?
Because SC2 is a game where all-ins and blind counters are very common.
They should be used to these strats because they used a ton on GSL finals : ]
Btw is funny how "it is the game fault" when they lose and "hhaha expected" when they win.
Now that the game has been out for a while, and Aligulac provides us with an amazing way to keep track of winrates, I decided to look up some winrates of some of our biggest champions. I wanted to include Stork as well for BW, but couldn't find him.
Flash 2009-2011: ~75% Boxer 2001: ~74% Savior 2006: ~72% Jaedong 2008-2010: ~70% Nada 2002-2003: ~67% Iloveoov 2004: ~64% Bisu 2007-2008: ~62% (when he won all his titles, weirdly he won more when he didn't win titles)
Mvp 2011: ~71% Taeja 2012-2014: ~66% MC 2011: ~66% Zest 2014: ~65% Life 2012-2014: ~64%, around 69% in his peak at the end of WoL Nestea 2010-2011: ~62%
Basically, Jaedong and Flash were the only two players in the history of BW to have a ~70+% winrate for 2 years in a row, let alone 3 years in a row. That was about 6-7 years after it got really competitive. Only the very biggest champions ever managed a year over 70% in general, and the same goes for the very best champions in SC2. I would say that the SC2 champions have slightly lower winrates still, but considering this is a younger game and I took Aligulac data including online cups, they all played way more games with less preparation time. So I feel the data we have right now doesn't support that it's easier to lose as a champion of SC2, compared to BW. All-ins and blind counters may be common, but it appears the finest players will still win more often than not. Now with LotV being released soon, I'm sure we're going to see many fluctuations. It will be interesting to see who comes out on top!
Finally, both the last GSL winner and runner-up were unfortunate enough to face an in-form Taeja, and he's well known to be an anomaly in that regard. That doesn't take away that the average level of GSL is higher than any other tournament in the world. From the 6 GSL players at the world championship - Life won, Zest lost to Life, Hero lost to Classic, and Classic lost to MMA, a 2x GSL champion himself.
On December 12 2014 19:05 p14c wrote: MVP got lucky. He was dominant in a period when the best players were still playing BW. It all depends if Lotv comes with gimmicky units or not like Hots.
The best players like Life, Taeja, San, Parting, Marineking, MC? There's a long list of players that were nothing or didnt even play in Brood War that have won tournaments since the KESPA switch, so this argument holds little merit
Didn't see any of those players winning anything in Korea after the switch.
All of them even San won tournaments after the switch
On December 12 2014 19:05 p14c wrote: MVP got lucky. He was dominant in a period when the best players were still playing BW. It all depends if Lotv comes with gimmicky units or not like Hots.
The best players like Life, Taeja, San, Parting, Marineking, MC? There's a long list of players that were nothing or didnt even play in Brood War that have won tournaments since the KESPA switch, so this argument holds little merit
Didn't see any of those players winning anything in Korea after the switch.
All of them even San won tournaments after the switch
But not in Korea...
Conversely, very few "real" KeSPA players (part of the Big 5 of KeSPA teams) have won tournaments outside Korea, often falling to "foreign" Koreans or even non-Koreans. Are they really so terrible that they can't even win a foreign tournament?
On December 12 2014 23:30 Starecat wrote: If GSL is a "tournament of so super other world level of playars" why the champion and the runner up where dispatched early on the Blizzcon :3 ?
Because SC2 is a game where all-ins and blind counters are very common.
They should be used to these strats because they used a ton on GSL finals : ]
Btw is funny how "it is the game fault" when they lose and "hhaha expected" when they win.
Now that the game has been out for a while, and Aligulac provides us with an amazing way to keep track of winrates, I decided to look up some winrates of some of our biggest champions. I wanted to include Stork as well for BW, but couldn't find him.
Flash 2009-2011: ~75% Boxer 2001: ~74% Savior 2006: ~72% Jaedong 2008-2010: ~70% Nada 2002-2003: ~67% Iloveoov 2004: ~64% Bisu 2007-2008: ~62% (when he won all his titles, weirdly he won more when he didn't win titles)
Mvp 2011: ~71% Taeja 2012-2014: ~66% MC 2011: ~66% Zest 2014: ~65% Life 2012-2014: ~64%, around 69% in his peak at the end of WoL Nestea 2010-2011: ~62%
Basically, Jaedong and Flash were the only two players in the history of BW to have a ~70+% winrate for 2 years in a row, let alone 3 years in a row. That was about 6-7 years after it got really competitive. Only the very biggest champions ever managed a year over 70% in general, and the same goes for the very best champions in SC2. I would say that the SC2 champions have slightly lower winrates still, but considering this is a younger game and I took Aligulac data including online cups, they all played way more games with less preparation time. So I feel the data we have right now doesn't support that it's easier to lose as a champion of SC2, compared to BW. All-ins and blind counters may be common, but it appears the finest players will still win more often than not. Now with LotV being released soon, I'm sure we're going to see many fluctuations. It will be interesting to see who comes out on top!
Finally, both the last GSL winner and runner-up were unfortunate enough to face an in-form Taeja, and he's well known to be an anomaly in that regard. That doesn't take away that the average level of GSL is higher than any other tournament in the world. From the 6 GSL players at the world championship - Life won, Zest lost to Life, Hero lost to Classic, and Classic lost to MMA, a 2x GSL champion himself.
Important to note is that Zest, Mvp and Nestea (just as, I believe, all of the aforementioned BW players) have played far fewer (in the vicinity of 500-1000) games than Life, Taeja and MC. Maintaining a high win rate over a greater number of games is incredibly difficult. I don't know the exact number of games Flash played in his career, but I will bet you my Life's saving it wasn't 2000+ as is the case with MC.
On December 12 2014 19:05 p14c wrote: MVP got lucky. He was dominant in a period when the best players were still playing BW. It all depends if Lotv comes with gimmicky units or not like Hots.
The best players like Life, Taeja, San, Parting, Marineking, MC? There's a long list of players that were nothing or didnt even play in Brood War that have won tournaments since the KESPA switch, so this argument holds little merit
Didn't see any of those players winning anything in Korea after the switch.
All of them even San won tournaments after the switch
But not in Korea...
Conversely, very few "real" KeSPA players (part of the Big 5 of KeSPA teams) have won tournaments outside Korea. Are they really so terrible that they can't even win a foreign tournament?
Do you see how this goes both ways?
Shhh, Zealously, you can't use reason here. That frightens people.
Wow, what a great read! I think it is up to either Life or MC if someone's going to surpass Mvp. Although I am completely fine with calling Mvp the best, even when reviewing 2015
On December 12 2014 19:05 p14c wrote: MVP got lucky. He was dominant in a period when the best players were still playing BW. It all depends if Lotv comes with gimmicky units or not like Hots.
The best players like Life, Taeja, San, Parting, Marineking, MC? There's a long list of players that were nothing or didnt even play in Brood War that have won tournaments since the KESPA switch, so this argument holds little merit
Didn't see any of those players winning anything in Korea after the switch.
All of them even San won tournaments after the switch
But not in Korea...
Conversely, very few "real" KeSPA players (part of the Big 5 of KeSPA teams) have won tournaments outside Korea, often falling to "foreign" Koreans or even non-Koreans. Are they really so terrible that they can't even win a foreign tournament?
On December 12 2014 23:30 Starecat wrote: If GSL is a "tournament of so super other world level of playars" why the champion and the runner up where dispatched early on the Blizzcon :3 ?
Because SC2 is a game where all-ins and blind counters are very common.
They should be used to these strats because they used a ton on GSL finals : ]
Btw is funny how "it is the game fault" when they lose and "hhaha expected" when they win.
Now that the game has been out for a while, and Aligulac provides us with an amazing way to keep track of winrates, I decided to look up some winrates of some of our biggest champions. I wanted to include Stork as well for BW, but couldn't find him.
Flash 2009-2011: ~75% Boxer 2001: ~74% Savior 2006: ~72% Jaedong 2008-2010: ~70% Nada 2002-2003: ~67% Iloveoov 2004: ~64% Bisu 2007-2008: ~62% (when he won all his titles, weirdly he won more when he didn't win titles)
Mvp 2011: ~71% Taeja 2012-2014: ~66% MC 2011: ~66% Zest 2014: ~65% Life 2012-2014: ~64%, around 69% in his peak at the end of WoL Nestea 2010-2011: ~62%
Basically, Jaedong and Flash were the only two players in the history of BW to have a ~70+% winrate for 2 years in a row, let alone 3 years in a row. That was about 6-7 years after it got really competitive. Only the very biggest champions ever managed a year over 70% in general, and the same goes for the very best champions in SC2. I would say that the SC2 champions have slightly lower winrates still, but considering this is a younger game and I took Aligulac data including online cups, they all played way more games with less preparation time. So I feel the data we have right now doesn't support that it's easier to lose as a champion of SC2, compared to BW. All-ins and blind counters may be common, but it appears the finest players will still win more often than not. Now with LotV being released soon, I'm sure we're going to see many fluctuations. It will be interesting to see who comes out on top!
Finally, both the last GSL winner and runner-up were unfortunate enough to face an in-form Taeja, and he's well known to be an anomaly in that regard. That doesn't take away that the average level of GSL is higher than any other tournament in the world. From the 6 GSL players at the world championship - Life won, Zest lost to Life, Hero lost to Classic, and Classic lost to MMA, a 2x GSL champion himself.
Important to note is that Zest, Mvp and Nestea (just as, I believe, all of the aforementioned BW players) have played far fewer (in the vicinity of 500-1000) games than Life, Taeja and MC. Maintaining a high win rate over a greater number of games is incredibly difficult. I don't know the exact number of games Flash played in his career, but I will bet you my Life's saving it wasn't 2000+ as is the case with MC.
I think its also important to note what made/makes each of these players special enough to be considered the best. TaeJa showed unbelievable macro and thus became the weekend warrior, yet Life finds a way, always and can win any tournament on any day. DRG has at his highest highs, perhaps the greatest mechanics and macro of any player in SC2 history (see DRG v Inno GSL 2013). San revolutionized the game with his HT usage in PvT and his stunningly good PvZ Mvp knew how to tear you limb from limb in a long series whilst Flash and JD had perfect execution. Rain is a rock and MC had an ability to simply win and who can forget how well huk and stephano played a couple of years ago. My point is that each of the top players has something incredible about them which makes them unique, therefore can the question of a best player (and hence stichiu's point of no bongjwa) be taken seriously? Perhaps there is no such thing in SC2. Does that mean that all players are equal? Of course not, no offense but soO is def not on the same level as JimRising. Showtime isnt exactly Rain level. But at the highest level, is there a distinctive measure that can be used to determine who is the best? I have always said, at their best sOs with his ingenuity and DRG with his macro surpass every other player in existence, yet combined they have fewer tournament wins vs TaeJa. Yet TaeJa has never won a GSL....food for thought.
With all due respect to the "nominees" to be crowned as essentially, the "King of HotS", I don't think any of them came even close to having the success and dominance Mvp had during WoL. Well, Soo would have if he had won all 4 GSL finals. But he didn't.
So, I think Mvp's title of, perhaps, "the finest SC2 player so far" or maybe "the most successful SC2 player so far", whichever of the two titles you find most appropriate is justifiably debatable, is safe.
And before you argue that Taeja has twice as many titles as Mvp, are they the same caliber? He's won MLGs, Dreamhacks, HSCs, and whatnot. Again, with all due the respect to Taeja and the organizers of those tournaments, they aren't on the same level as the GSL. They just aren't.
Excellent article. 2015 is going to keep me and all players, not just Koreans, insanely busy. The players will definitely take this opportunity to make sure they stand out from the others. Korea will be a blood bath at the same time as I fear people will be forced into retirement because they simply can't compete in Korea. Just look at the Starleague qualifiers a couple days ago. Some players we expected to qualify dropped out.
Awesome article, but I agree with some other people that Rain, at least, needs to be considered as a contender. 2015 is so hype right now. Such cool story line potential.
On December 13 2014 07:52 ukiya2004 wrote: where is sOs and Rain. and MC's era is long gone. I'd ne suprised if he ends up winning anything next year
I gotta agree with that, and add INnoVation as well. I like MC and he's certainly no scrub (he looked pretty good against herO at Blizzcon), but his HotS record in offline matches against Koreans is a terrible 39%.
Meanwhile INno, sOs and Rain are sitting right at 66% (they're all within about 1% of each other), which is pretty amazing.
Edit: Also, putting aside who is the most successful player, I feel like sOs is the true spiritual successor to Mvp. Who else but sOs could live up to the legacy of a man who stayed ahead of the curve by mixing top-level macro play with frequent aggressive cheeses and all-ins?
On December 12 2014 14:27 Brutaxilos wrote: Can someone explain to me why Taeja is shrugged off from succeeding Mvp? I have to admit I didn't watch a lot of Korean SC2 when Mvp was dominating. But surely, Taeja's last 2 years have been pretty dominating are they not?
4 GSLs >>>>>>>>>>>>> 0 GSLs
can't argue with that logic
edit: also does anyone seriously know what's up with Mvp lately? Not even playing qualifiers?
Great stuff. 2015 hype all the way. I love these articles that give us a view on SC history/competitive scene as a whole, with the changes in dynamics brought by the way Blizzard approaches the game. These team houses are such war machines, it's quite amazing. And how just a few players still managed to gain overall better successes than others. Shouldn't MMa have been mentioned at least once, though? Isn't he the only one to have made 2 blizzcon finals?
On December 13 2014 10:56 Trizztein wrote: Great stuff. 2015 hype all the way. I love these articles that give us a view on SC history/competitive scene as a whole, with the changes in dynamics brought by the way Blizzard approaches the game. These team houses are such war machines, it's quite amazing. And how just a few players still managed to gain overall better successes than others. Shouldn't MMa have been mentioned at least once, though? Isn't he the only one to have made 2 blizzcon finals?
No one has made it to 2 Blizzcon finals.
Blizzcon finals have been:
2010: Genius vs Loner 2011: Mvp vs NesTea 2012: PartinG vs Creator 2013: sOs vs Jaedong 2014: Life vs MMA
MMA won a GSL finals in 2011 that was PLAYED on location AT Blizzcon, but it was not the Blizzcon finals.
On December 13 2014 10:56 Trizztein wrote: Great stuff. 2015 hype all the way. I love these articles that give us a view on SC history/competitive scene as a whole, with the changes in dynamics brought by the way Blizzard approaches the game. These team houses are such war machines, it's quite amazing. And how just a few players still managed to gain overall better successes than others. Shouldn't MMa have been mentioned at least once, though? Isn't he the only one to have made 2 blizzcon finals?
I agree, he needs a little more love when talking about all-time greats of SC2. He's been the ace for roughly 2 gstls, back when they were 3-4 day events, and 2 acer teamstory cups, which as far as I can tell is not reflected on the aligulac earnings, where he's currently 3rd.
I'll admit he looks unimpressive in defeat sometimes, but he often looks very dominant in victory. He should be a strong candidate for terran of the year.
2011 Blizzcon was Mvp over NesTea, including a very infamous Shakuras Plateau game that got ghosts perma-nerfed. GSL finals was held at Blizzcon for GSL October, where MMA was the first person to beat Mvp in a GSL finals.
P.S. That ghost nerf still bugs the crap out of me; why they didn't just nerf snipe vs massive is anyone's guess. It even makes sense lorewise, a freaking ultralisk should be more impervious to snipe than a zergling.
P.P.S. This is still a very engaging article and fun read. I skim a lot these days, but this one I read.
Beyond that are the relative importance of patches to both games. Like I mentioned before, Brood War was remarkable (by today's standards) for the off-hands approach of its developer.
And there I stopped! Wont call out Blizzard right?
You call Blizzard not giving a fuck remarkable...that's not a approach that's what all tripple AAA fuckers do and so many others too... They sell it and look that it runs kind of? And than don't give a fuck! Other company's get blamed for such behaviour and its deserved but here its remarkable. That is bullshit on Bush Jr level...omg
And than you don't even go to the conclusion. Blizzard is not able to even balance one of their games. They should fire this idiots. Give control to players so that the game is somehow balanced. Because as long Blizzard is touching it this game will not be the great balanced rts title.
If one gets offended by this just take a deep breath. THINK! And than agree on me. Well its like this, and i am proud to use it
ps: Rest of Article is like IGN, Titenfall, Believe the Hype. We all know where this went. pps: Thank your for the effort you put in. You made my day with it.
On December 12 2014 14:27 Brutaxilos wrote: Can someone explain to me why Taeja is shrugged off from succeeding Mvp? I have to admit I didn't watch a lot of Korean SC2 when Mvp was dominating. But surely, Taeja's last 2 years have been pretty dominating are they not?
4 GSLs >>>>>>>>>>>>> 0 GSLs
can't argue with that logic
edit: also does anyone seriously know what's up with Mvp lately? Not even playing qualifiers?
On December 12 2014 19:05 p14c wrote: MVP got lucky. He was dominant in a period when the best players were still playing BW. It all depends if Lotv comes with gimmicky units or not like Hots.
The best players like Life, Taeja, San, Parting, Marineking, MC? There's a long list of players that were nothing or didnt even play in Brood War that have won tournaments since the KESPA switch, so this argument holds little merit
After Kespa switch, GSL is like 90% Kespa players and almost all champions are ex-Broodwar players. (Maru is the only one non-Kespa that won after the full switch). All those players did not do that well in Korea and this is why they travel outside where they don't even need to qualify. They are just invited. Look at Taeja, he tried to qualified for IEM Toronto and Kespa Cup and he failed in the first rounds. It's not easy to qualify in Korea. Life also end up in Code B in 2014.. It was much easier for MVP to be dominant, when the game was fresh and the most experienced RTS players were still playing BW.
On December 12 2014 19:05 p14c wrote: MVP got lucky. He was dominant in a period when the best players were still playing BW. It all depends if Lotv comes with gimmicky units or not like Hots.
The best players like Life, Taeja, San, Parting, Marineking, MC? There's a long list of players that were nothing or didnt even play in Brood War that have won tournaments since the KESPA switch, so this argument holds little merit
After Kespa switch, GSL is like 90% Kespa players and almost all champions are ex-Broodwar players. (Maru is the only one non-Kespa that won after the full switch). All those players did not do that well in Korea and this is why they travel outside where they don't even need to qualify. They are just invited. Look at Taeja, he tried to qualified for IEM Toronto and Kespa Cup and he failed in the first rounds. It's not easy to qualify in Korea. Life also end up in Code B in 2014.. It was much easier for MVP to be dominant, when the game was fresh and the most experienced RTS players were still playing BW.
I can hit you with a wall of facts to dispute your claims if you're interested, because you seem to have gotten the chain of events a little wrong or at the very least omitted some significant results. Are you interested in a different, more factually based view, or are you here just to harp on the ex-eSF and non-KeSPA players?
On December 12 2014 19:05 p14c wrote: MVP got lucky. He was dominant in a period when the best players were still playing BW. It all depends if Lotv comes with gimmicky units or not like Hots.
The best players like Life, Taeja, San, Parting, Marineking, MC? There's a long list of players that were nothing or didnt even play in Brood War that have won tournaments since the KESPA switch, so this argument holds little merit
After Kespa switch, GSL is like 90% Kespa players and almost all champions are ex-Broodwar players. (Maru is the only one non-Kespa that won after the full switch). All those players did not do that well in Korea and this is why they travel outside where they don't even need to qualify. They are just invited. Look at Taeja, he tried to qualified for IEM Toronto and Kespa Cup and he failed in the first rounds. It's not easy to qualify in Korea. Life also end up in Code B in 2014.. It was much easier for MVP to be dominant, when the game was fresh and the most experienced RTS players were still playing BW.
Since Zest and SoO didn't qualify for SSL does that mean that they are bad players? Tons of great players didn't qualify for KeSPA cup. Also Taeja didn't even attempt to qualify for IEM Toronto since he was already invited.
i feel like taeja is the only one of these guys who doesn't need to claim Mvp's throne. he established his own kingdom, hs own legacy that is just as impressive.
that said, i have a feeling that he doesn't mind claiming another kingdom
On December 14 2014 01:56 mechengineer123 wrote: It's a shame Mvp fell off due to his health. He would be absolutely untouchable if he remained relevant for a little bit longer.
MC got no chance to take the throne. He's not only the weakest link of these 4, he's also the weakest player to be considered a top Korean.
Zest or soO will probably win hella lot of stuff in 2015, depending on who balance favors. Taeja will perform regardless of balance.
On December 13 2014 10:56 Trizztein wrote: Great stuff. 2015 hype all the way. I love these articles that give us a view on SC history/competitive scene as a whole, with the changes in dynamics brought by the way Blizzard approaches the game. These team houses are such war machines, it's quite amazing. And how just a few players still managed to gain overall better successes than others. Shouldn't MMa have been mentioned at least once, though? Isn't he the only one to have made 2 blizzcon finals?
No one has made it to 2 Blizzcon finals.
Blizzcon finals have been:
2010: Genius vs Loner 2011: Mvp vs NesTea 2012: PartinG vs Creator 2013: sOs vs Jaedong 2014: Life vs MMA
MMA won a GSL finals in 2011 that was PLAYED on location AT Blizzcon, but it was not the Blizzcon finals.
On December 14 2014 09:04 Thyrym wrote: If Zest can fix PvT i think he can do well in 2015...
if sOs didnt take so long to perfect his build he can do well in 2015 if DRG could go back 3 years in the past so his reflexes are good he can do well in 2015 if soO... if....
see what I mean? ifs are nice and all, but the reality is that having fantastical thoughts about players wont really amount to anything
On December 14 2014 09:04 Thyrym wrote: If Zest can fix PvT i think he can do well in 2015...
if sOs didnt take so long to perfect his build he can do well in 2015 if DRG could go back 3 years in the past so his reflexes are good he can do well in 2015 if soO... if....
see what I mean? ifs are nice and all, but the reality is that having fantastical thoughts about players wont really amount to anything
But this thread is kinda a '' if '' thread... And to be honest it amount to hype
On December 14 2014 09:04 Thyrym wrote: If Zest can fix PvT i think he can do well in 2015...
if sOs didnt take so long to perfect his build he can do well in 2015 if DRG could go back 3 years in the past so his reflexes are good he can do well in 2015 if soO... if....
see what I mean? ifs are nice and all, but the reality is that having fantastical thoughts about players wont really amount to anything
Yeah if Mvp didn't lose in the Ro32, get sent to Code A, then lose in the Ro32 again he would have been a bonjwa.
On December 14 2014 09:04 Thyrym wrote: If Zest can fix PvT i think he can do well in 2015...
if sOs didnt take so long to perfect his build he can do well in 2015 if DRG could go back 3 years in the past so his reflexes are good he can do well in 2015 if soO... if....
see what I mean? ifs are nice and all, but the reality is that having fantastical thoughts about players wont really amount to anything
Yeah if Mvp didn't lose in the Ro32, get sent to Code A, then lose in the Ro32 again he would have been a bonjwa.
If I won 5 G5Ls I'd be a bonjwa... am I doing this right?
On December 14 2014 09:04 Thyrym wrote: If Zest can fix PvT i think he can do well in 2015...
if sOs didnt take so long to perfect his build he can do well in 2015 if DRG could go back 3 years in the past so his reflexes are good he can do well in 2015 if soO... if....
see what I mean? ifs are nice and all, but the reality is that having fantastical thoughts about players wont really amount to anything
Yeah if Mvp didn't lose in the Ro32, get sent to Code A, then lose in the Ro32 again he would have been a bonjwa.
well, in his gsl final against life, mvp was playing with a broken wrist, against the 2nd best sc2 player of all times who was in his feared "destruction mode", at a time when bl/infestor was already a popular and mapped out, yet totally broken strategy ... which life exploited to the fullest at the end of that finals - and despite all those obstacles, mvp only lost it sooo narrowly. he was literally milliseconds (game6) from claiming his G5L under all those adverse circumstances combined. he was milliseconds away from claiming the throne forever. that would truly have been legendary.... but then we wouldnt have had the chance to read this fantastic article.
On December 14 2014 09:04 Thyrym wrote: If Zest can fix PvT i think he can do well in 2015...
if sOs didnt take so long to perfect his build he can do well in 2015 if DRG could go back 3 years in the past so his reflexes are good he can do well in 2015 if soO... if....
see what I mean? ifs are nice and all, but the reality is that having fantastical thoughts about players wont really amount to anything
Yeah if Mvp didn't lose in the Ro32, get sent to Code A, then lose in the Ro32 again he would have been a bonjwa.
well, in his gsl final against life, mvp was playing with a broken wrist, against the 2nd best sc2 player of all times who was in his feared "destruction mode", at a time when bl/infestor was already a popular and mapped out, yet totally broken strategy ... which life exploited to the fullest at the end of that finals - and despite all those obstacles, mvp only lost it sooo narrowly. he was literally milliseconds (game6) from claiming his G5L under all those adverse circumstances combined. he was milliseconds away from claiming the throne forever. that would truly have been legendary.... but then we wouldnt have had the chance to read this fantastic article.
the fact that people were going to call someone a bonjwa who went out in ro16 between 2 titles is, i don't know what to say. and he won 3 gsls and an invitational with 8 foreigners that people call a gsl.
On December 14 2014 01:56 mechengineer123 wrote: Zest or soO will probably win hella lot of stuff in 2015, depending on who balance favors. Taeja will perform regardless of balance.
I think herO will replace Zest as the best protoss now that the game is less protoss-dominated, a large part of Zest's success was his ability to almost always win PvP, while herO is great in other matchups and just ok at PvP. Players who are weakest at their mirror (like Taeja) always do best when their race is at its worst.
i really hope LOTV wont be released for another 2 years or so... we've just gone to the somewhat balanced stage of HOTS (zerg is a lil weaker atm i think).... i want to see more good HOTS and hopefully a bonjwa will appear
Nothing creates so much longing as that feeling of nostalgia when one thinks about how it felt to watch those first few professional SC2 matches, without knowing everything we know today.
On December 12 2014 19:05 p14c wrote: MVP got lucky. He was dominant in a period when the best players were still playing BW. It all depends if Lotv comes with gimmicky units or not like Hots.
The best players like Life, Taeja, San, Parting, Marineking, MC? There's a long list of players that were nothing or didnt even play in Brood War that have won tournaments since the KESPA switch, so this argument holds little merit
Didn't see any of those players winning anything in Korea after the switch.
All of them even San won tournaments after the switch
But not in Korea...
Conversely, very few "real" KeSPA players (part of the Big 5 of KeSPA teams) have won tournaments outside Korea, often falling to "foreign" Koreans or even non-Koreans. Are they really so terrible that they can't even win a foreign tournament?
On December 12 2014 23:30 Starecat wrote: If GSL is a "tournament of so super other world level of playars" why the champion and the runner up where dispatched early on the Blizzcon :3 ?
Because SC2 is a game where all-ins and blind counters are very common.
They should be used to these strats because they used a ton on GSL finals : ]
Btw is funny how "it is the game fault" when they lose and "hhaha expected" when they win.
Now that the game has been out for a while, and Aligulac provides us with an amazing way to keep track of winrates, I decided to look up some winrates of some of our biggest champions. I wanted to include Stork as well for BW, but couldn't find him.
Flash 2009-2011: ~75% Boxer 2001: ~74% Savior 2006: ~72% Jaedong 2008-2010: ~70% Nada 2002-2003: ~67% Iloveoov 2004: ~64% Bisu 2007-2008: ~62% (when he won all his titles, weirdly he won more when he didn't win titles)
Mvp 2011: ~71% Taeja 2012-2014: ~66% MC 2011: ~66% Zest 2014: ~65% Life 2012-2014: ~64%, around 69% in his peak at the end of WoL Nestea 2010-2011: ~62%
Basically, Jaedong and Flash were the only two players in the history of BW to have a ~70+% winrate for 2 years in a row, let alone 3 years in a row. That was about 6-7 years after it got really competitive. Only the very biggest champions ever managed a year over 70% in general, and the same goes for the very best champions in SC2. I would say that the SC2 champions have slightly lower winrates still, but considering this is a younger game and I took Aligulac data including online cups, they all played way more games with less preparation time. So I feel the data we have right now doesn't support that it's easier to lose as a champion of SC2, compared to BW. All-ins and blind counters may be common, but it appears the finest players will still win more often than not. Now with LotV being released soon, I'm sure we're going to see many fluctuations. It will be interesting to see who comes out on top!
Finally, both the last GSL winner and runner-up were unfortunate enough to face an in-form Taeja, and he's well known to be an anomaly in that regard. That doesn't take away that the average level of GSL is higher than any other tournament in the world. From the 6 GSL players at the world championship - Life won, Zest lost to Life, Hero lost to Classic, and Classic lost to MMA, a 2x GSL champion himself.
Important to note is that Zest, Mvp and Nestea (just as, I believe, all of the aforementioned BW players) have played far fewer (in the vicinity of 500-1000) games than Life, Taeja and MC. Maintaining a high win rate over a greater number of games is incredibly difficult. I don't know the exact number of games Flash played in his career, but I will bet you my Life's saving it wasn't 2000+ as is the case with MC.
That is just unfair to compare though, the "real" kespa guys simply didn't travel as much, ofc they won't win weekend tournaments instantly, you have "to learn" to deal with these situations too. I am pretty confident that IF these Kespa guys would go to every foreign tournament like a lot of other koreans do (like taeja for example) they would win most of the time.
I don't know the exact number of games Flash played in his career, but I will bet you my Life's saving it wasn't 2000+ as is the case with MC
MC has a winrate of 60% over his ~2k games. If we now filter these games to vs south koreans only (like the BW players) we get a winrate of 52% over around 1.1k games. If we now filter this again to "offline only" we get a winrate of 51.6% over ~0.7k games. So yeah, these stats are boosted by a lot of games which are a nonfactor in the BW stats. If we had the same amount of games vs foreigners back in the day these stats would be ridiculously high. So all the stats which were presented here for various players like Taeja, Life, Mvp, etc are not relevant if you want to compare them to the BW stats imo.
I am really no BW elitist at all, but i try to be reasonable when i compare these things
Are we comparing game win rates or match win rates? If it's the first, many of SC2's "greatest champions" have win rates that are decidedly comparable to the bonjwas (for the purpose of this comparison I consider all of TBLS bonjwas) we're discussing, lagging behind only the top three. If we pick out their single best years, only Flash, Boxer and Savior stand out as superior to all SC2 champions up until this point in terms of winrates. For example, Life maintained a 66% winrate between 2012-03-01 and 2013-03-15, while MC maintained a winrate of over 70% between release and 2011-06-01.
I get that you think the cream of the crop BW players were more dominant than their SC2 counterparts, and they were - in terms of championship consistency. In terms of games won/lost, the difference is smaller than people think.
On December 15 2014 02:14 Zealously wrote: Are we comparing game win rates or match win rates? If it's the first, many of SC2's "greatest champions" have win rates that are decidedly comparable to the bonjwas (for the purpose of this comparison I consider all of TBLS bonjwas) we're discussing, lagging behind only the top three. If we pick out their single best years, only Flash, Boxer and Savior stand out as superior to all SC2 champions up until this point in terms of winrates. For example, Life maintained a 66% winrate between 2012-03-01 and 2013-03-15, while MC maintained a winrate of over 70% between release and 2011-06-01.
I get that you think the cream of the crop BW players were more dominant than their SC2 counterparts, and they were - in terms of championship consistency. In terms of games won/lost, the difference is smaller than people think.
The difference is that BW players were only playing the top Koreans whereas Koreans now can pad their stats against foreigners and lesser Koreans.
On December 15 2014 02:14 Zealously wrote: Are we comparing game win rates or match win rates? If it's the first, many of SC2's "greatest champions" have win rates that are decidedly comparable to the bonjwas (for the purpose of this comparison I consider all of TBLS bonjwas) we're discussing, lagging behind only the top three. If we pick out their single best years, only Flash, Boxer and Savior stand out as superior to all SC2 champions up until this point in terms of winrates. For example, Life maintained a 66% winrate between 2012-03-01 and 2013-03-15, while MC maintained a winrate of over 70% between release and 2011-06-01.
I get that you think the cream of the crop BW players were more dominant than their SC2 counterparts, and they were - in terms of championship consistency. In terms of games won/lost, the difference is smaller than people think.
The difference is that BW players were only playing the top Koreans whereas Koreans now can pad their stats against foreigners and lesser Koreans.
That is bullshit. First, the stats I mentioned (Life 66%, MC 70%) were filtered by time vs South Korean players in offline settings. This eliminates wins against foreigners and random online cups. Second, there were bottom players in Brood War just as there are in SC2, and any top player would ultimately come to face them in Proleague and Dual Tournament qualifiers for the Starleagues. You could even use MC (called IrOn at the time) as an example: I think he had a record in televised matches that amounted to a 10% or below winrate.
Hell, one could even argue that bonjwas "padded" their win rates by beating players they were far superior to, because the gap between a player like Flash and a player at the bottom was extremely wide, and there were fewer players that could play at his level. In SC2, there are a lot of really great players that are all more or less capable of beating each other on a given Sunday.
edit: first part deleted cause it was kinda hostile toward zealously who's a cool guy
because the gap between a player like Flash and a player at the bottom was extremely wide, and there were fewer players that could play at his level. In SC2, there are a lot of really great players that are all more or less capable of beating each other on a given Sunday.
and this is why the term bonjwa should be used for BW and not SC2, because it's a game where the best player in the world can be miles above the 3rd best player. in sc2 even mvp, mc, and life were beatable by any player in the top 20.
And that doesn't make BW a better game. It's a lot easier to be dominant in basketball or tennis than in most sports, but that doesn't make basketball and tennis better than baseball, soccer, or American football where you have a lot more parity.
soO or Life are the only ones that could realistically do it, seriously soO did everything this year through a very protoss favored meta and Life did most his heavy results this year when TvT was the staple. Both those players stood when others fell, the only other player on this list to do that when their race was doing that bad is Taeja and that is not realistic. Zest had an awesome year, this year was to 70% ruled by protoss, what did Zest win after the T patch?
On December 15 2014 06:19 Shuffleblade wrote: soO or Life are the only ones that could realistically do it, seriously soO did everything this year through a very protoss favored meta and Life did most his heavy results this year when TvT was the staple. Both those players stood when others fell, the only other player on this list to do that when their race was doing that bad is Taeja and that is not realistic. Zest had an awesome year, this year was to 70% ruled by protoss, what did Zest win after the T patch?
As I expected...losing to Inno was too much...soO is broken he may never come back. Life however you can never count out.
On December 12 2014 19:05 p14c wrote: MVP got lucky. He was dominant in a period when the best players were still playing BW. It all depends if Lotv comes with gimmicky units or not like Hots.
The best players like Life, Taeja, San, Parting, Marineking, MC? There's a long list of players that were nothing or didnt even play in Brood War that have won tournaments since the KESPA switch, so this argument holds little merit
Didn't see any of those players winning anything in Korea after the switch.
Life won a GSL after the kespa switch
But not before Heart of the Swarm that was the real game equalizer.
On December 12 2014 19:05 p14c wrote: MVP got lucky. He was dominant in a period when the best players were still playing BW. It all depends if Lotv comes with gimmicky units or not like Hots.
The best players like Life, Taeja, San, Parting, Marineking, MC? There's a long list of players that were nothing or didnt even play in Brood War that have won tournaments since the KESPA switch, so this argument holds little merit
Didn't see any of those players winning anything in Korea after the switch.
Life won a GSL after the kespa switch
But not before Heart of the Swarm that was the real game equalizer.
If we call the Global championship-thing Mvp won a GSL I think we can go far enough out of our way to say the same about WCS Global
There is only one candidate ! Mvp was scary not only because he won but because it felt that he could win just by showing up and feel like it. He had that aura of invincibility that only one player ever match.
And that player is life. When he was at his peak it was like the kid just couldn't go down. Even down 0-3 against DRG I was worried for the Dong. Think about it he got 2nd at TSL4 and then won GSL MLG MLG blizzcup Ironsquid in the span of 6 months .... Undefeated in BO5+ LAN for 19 matchs (that's more than 13 MONTHS !!!) only being defeated by Taeja the 20th time.
Then the battle is for third place between BOGUS (who needs to win and not just be frightening) and Taeja (who needs to prove himself in Korea).
MC is by far the most over rated player in the history of the game. Suicide toss is at a mediocre 52% all time against korean and that drops to a pathetic 44% offline in hearth of the swarm. His name should not even be mention here.
Zest and soO well they kind of need to qualify first before winning something ....
You are an excellent writer. I really enjoyed it. You, and the people like you (the passionate ones), are why I come back day after day, year after year.
On December 16 2014 01:20 Philozovic wrote: There is only one candidate ! Mvp was scary not only because he won but because it felt that he could win just by showing up and feel like it. He had that aura of invincibility that only one player ever match.
And that player is life. When he was at his peak it was like the kid just couldn't go down. Even down 0-3 against DRG I was worried for the Dong. Think about it he got 2nd at TSL4 and then won GSL MLG MLG blizzcup Ironsquid in the span of 6 months .... Undefeated in BO5+ LAN for 19 matchs (that's more than 13 MONTHS !!!) only being defeated by Taeja the 20th time.
Then the battle is for third place between BOGUS (who needs to win and not just be frightening) and Taeja (who needs to prove himself in Korea).
MC is by far the most over rated player in the history of the game. Suicide toss is at a mediocre 52% all time against korean and that drops to a pathetic 44% offline in hearth of the swarm. His name should not even be mention here.
Zest and soO well they kind of need to qualify first before winning something ....
To be fair, Life hasn't exactly done very well in GSL since 2013 (when Zerg wasn't overpowered). He has only made it to the ro8 or higher once and that was this year S1.
On December 12 2014 19:05 p14c wrote: MVP got lucky. He was dominant in a period when the best players were still playing BW. It all depends if Lotv comes with gimmicky units or not like Hots.
The best players like Life, Taeja, San, Parting, Marineking, MC? There's a long list of players that were nothing or didnt even play in Brood War that have won tournaments since the KESPA switch, so this argument holds little merit
Didn't see any of those players winning anything in Korea after the switch.
Life won a GSL after the kespa switch
But not before Heart of the Swarm that was the real game equalizer.
Surprised nobody mentioned Maru yet. Against all odds (being on Prime :p) he won an OSL post-HotS.
On December 16 2014 01:20 Philozovic wrote: There is only one candidate ! Mvp was scary not only because he won but because it felt that he could win just by showing up and feel like it. He had that aura of invincibility that only one player ever match.
And that player is life. When he was at his peak it was like the kid just couldn't go down. Even down 0-3 against DRG I was worried for the Dong. Think about it he got 2nd at TSL4 and then won GSL MLG MLG blizzcup Ironsquid in the span of 6 months .... Undefeated in BO5+ LAN for 19 matchs (that's more than 13 MONTHS !!!) only being defeated by Taeja the 20th time.
Then the battle is for third place between BOGUS (who needs to win and not just be frightening) and Taeja (who needs to prove himself in Korea).
MC is by far the most over rated player in the history of the game. Suicide toss is at a mediocre 52% all time against korean and that drops to a pathetic 44% offline in hearth of the swarm. His name should not even be mention here.
Zest and soO well they kind of need to qualify first before winning something ....
To be fair, Life hasn't exactly done very well in GSL since 2013 (when Zerg wasn't overpowered). He has only made it to the ro8 or higher once and that was this year S1.
Beeing mvp like is not just about the result it's about beeing feared, it's about making the other guy shaking and shiting in his pant. Life was so scary, just remember that one dreamhack where he was eliminated by Sjow, everyone one thought he had tourney won before it even starts. No one inspired as much fear !
On December 16 2014 01:20 Philozovic wrote: There is only one candidate ! Mvp was scary not only because he won but because it felt that he could win just by showing up and feel like it. He had that aura of invincibility that only one player ever match.
And that player is life. When he was at his peak it was like the kid just couldn't go down. Even down 0-3 against DRG I was worried for the Dong. Think about it he got 2nd at TSL4 and then won GSL MLG MLG blizzcup Ironsquid in the span of 6 months .... Undefeated in BO5+ LAN for 19 matchs (that's more than 13 MONTHS !!!) only being defeated by Taeja the 20th time.
Then the battle is for third place between BOGUS (who needs to win and not just be frightening) and Taeja (who needs to prove himself in Korea).
MC is by far the most over rated player in the history of the game. Suicide toss is at a mediocre 52% all time against korean and that drops to a pathetic 44% offline in hearth of the swarm. His name should not even be mention here.
Zest and soO well they kind of need to qualify first before winning something ....
To be fair, Life hasn't exactly done very well in GSL since 2013 (when Zerg wasn't overpowered). He has only made it to the ro8 or higher once and that was this year S1.
Beeing mvp like is not just about the result it's about beeing feared, it's about making the other guy shaking and shiting in his pant. Life was so scary, just remember that one dreamhack where he was eliminated by Sjow, everyone one thought he had tourney won before it even starts. No one inspired as much fear !
On December 16 2014 01:20 Philozovic wrote: There is only one candidate ! Mvp was scary not only because he won but because it felt that he could win just by showing up and feel like it. He had that aura of invincibility that only one player ever match.
And that player is life. When he was at his peak it was like the kid just couldn't go down. Even down 0-3 against DRG I was worried for the Dong. Think about it he got 2nd at TSL4 and then won GSL MLG MLG blizzcup Ironsquid in the span of 6 months .... Undefeated in BO5+ LAN for 19 matchs (that's more than 13 MONTHS !!!) only being defeated by Taeja the 20th time.
Then the battle is for third place between BOGUS (who needs to win and not just be frightening) and Taeja (who needs to prove himself in Korea).
MC is by far the most over rated player in the history of the game. Suicide toss is at a mediocre 52% all time against korean and that drops to a pathetic 44% offline in hearth of the swarm. His name should not even be mention here.
Zest and soO well they kind of need to qualify first before winning something ....
To be fair, Life hasn't exactly done very well in GSL since 2013 (when Zerg wasn't overpowered). He has only made it to the ro8 or higher once and that was this year S1.
Beeing mvp like is not just about the result it's about beeing feared, it's about making the other guy shaking and shiting in his pant. Life was so scary, just remember that one dreamhack where he was eliminated by Sjow, everyone one thought he had tourney won before it even starts. No one inspired as much fear !
Quite frankly, I find someone who is only ranked masters with 202 total sc2 career games under their belt, calling players like MC and Taeja "weak" to be laughable. Keep your head in the sand stuchiu, your peanut gallery comments do you more disservice than your battlenet profile. =D
After reading this article , I'm hyped as fuck ! thanks for it !
In my perfect fantasy world , mvp will come out in the next season of GSL , crush everyone and win it all , then do it again for season 3......but again its a fantasy world or could it be.....a lotv prophecy ????? XD
Being real now , I got eyes set on Taeja and in my heart im hoping for Maru or MarineKing to do some heavy damage ( yes I root for terrans )
Great article. I've been keeping my own list of the best all-time StarCraft II players because I'm a nerd like that and love this sort of thing. Personally, I don't think MVP will be surpassed.
TaeJa has more Premier wins and more Top-4 finishes, but with no GSLs, he's a far cry from surpassing The King of Wings. He'd need at least two GSL wins to even be in the conversation in my opinion.
MC has more earnings and top-4 finishes but I don't see him winning any more GSLs anytime soon. He's a huge underdog to even win a Premier tournament these days.
Nestea has long been irrelevant.
Zest needs to prove he's not going to be a one-year wonder like Soulkey and Dear, but even if he keeps up his consistency, he has some work to do.
Really the best shot comes from Life. He's already up there in Premier wins, earnings, Triple Crowns, etc. If he wins another GSL or two, things get interesting...
This article was a nice piece of hype building but it brushed over the current GSL champion Innovation... If there's a T that can consistently win in Korea this year, it's him. He's got the motivation, the form, the team and the experience needed.
On January 19 2015 11:15 Ghanburighan wrote: This article was a nice piece of hype building but it brushed over the current GSL champion Innovation... If there's a T that can consistently win in Korea this year, it's him. He's got the motivation, the form, the team and the experience needed.
I don't really think Innovation has what it takes to become the next Mvp.
Innovation is too much like Flash, playes too standard, is slow to change.
Sure he may be the best player when it comes to mechanics, but Mvp was much more than that, not only he could be best the mechanical player with greath micro and near perfect macro, he was also one of the smartest players to ever play, even when he couldn't defeat players with his hands, he was able to defeat them with his brain
On January 19 2015 11:15 Ghanburighan wrote: This article was a nice piece of hype building but it brushed over the current GSL champion Innovation... If there's a T that can consistently win in Korea this year, it's him. He's got the motivation, the form, the team and the experience needed.
Innovation would have to be on that list.
In hindsight, I guess Dear has a good shot too, given his recent performance.
I legitimately don't understand how people who follow SC2 closely can consistently rate Taeja so high. There are tournaments in Korea where the best players play. Taeja doesn't win them. Taeja has had many more opportunities to play in Premier tournaments than the players who play in the competitive tournaments. Because of that, he wins more often. He also has had more practice with the different formats. So he wins at a higher clip as well.
I can't read these darn articles any more. I feel like I'm going crazy!!! I feel like people are going to look back on HOTS and consider Taeja the best Terran. And I'm going to be sitting in the corner talking to myself!!!
He's an amazing player. He has a wonderful style. Every terran should copy him on ladder because of the way he plays. But is simply disqualified from being considered the best. Uck.Of course that's my opinion. And I get that people can differ. But it's weird how he ALWAYS shows up. It's like everyone is using some bizarre criteria and it makes sense to them but not to me.So strange for me.
On January 19 2015 12:00 -_- wrote: I legitimately don't understand how people who follow SC2 closely can consistently rate Taeja so high. There are tournaments in Korea where the best players play. Taeja doesn't win them. Taeja has had many more opportunities to play in Premier tournaments than the players who play in the competitive tournaments. Because of that, he wins more often. He also has had more practice with the different formats. So he wins at a higher clip as well.
I can't read these darn articles any more. I feel like I'm going crazy!!! I feel like people are going to look back on HOTS and consider Taeja the best Terran. And I'm going to be sitting in the corner talking to myself!!!
He's an amazing player. He has a wonderful style. Every terran should copy him on ladder because of the way he plays. But is simply disqualified from being considered the best. Uck.Of course that's my opinion. And I get that people can differ. But it's weird how he ALWAYS shows up. It's like everyone is using some bizarre criteria and it makes sense to them but not to me.So strange for me.
He's really hard to judge though. 2012-13 (WoL) his GSL runs were: quarterfinals, quarterfinals, semifinals, Ro32, semifinals. And he won 3 Premier titles in that year. At this point, he was probably the best Terran in the world, only challenged by an upcoming Innovation and an downfalling Mvp. Then in HotS he went through the group stages of the GSL again in S1, only being surpassed by Innovation and Bomber. That's it, he left the GSL voluntarily. He wasn't defeated, he just went to WCS America and won 8 Premier titles 2013-2014, many of them against top-GSL players (though he didn't win WCS AM).
I agree that he is probably not the best Terran in the world, but it's really hard to argue he is not one of the very best. This GSL/NSSL is the first time we have seen him in this sort of tournament for a long time. And though he dropped out early in both, the article was written before that but after he qualified for both (I believe). And even then... soO and Zest both didn't even qualify. Even just falling out of those tournaments early isn't that indicative of not being at the top imo, though obviously you are currently not the #1 player.
The Premier count is a red herring, since the list of Premier tournaments is more or less just a convention, with no real criteria about quality of competition. That said Taeja has won some very hard tournaments and is among the most skilled, but using Premier count to argue for his position is meaningless without breaking down his wins on a case by case basis.
On January 19 2015 12:00 -_- wrote: I legitimately don't understand how people who follow SC2 closely can consistently rate Taeja so high. There are tournaments in Korea where the best players play. Taeja doesn't win them. Taeja has had many more opportunities to play in Premier tournaments than the players who play in the competitive tournaments. Because of that, he wins more often. He also has had more practice with the different formats. So he wins at a higher clip as well.
I can't read these darn articles any more. I feel like I'm going crazy!!! I feel like people are going to look back on HOTS and consider Taeja the best Terran. And I'm going to be sitting in the corner talking to myself!!!
He's an amazing player. He has a wonderful style. Every terran should copy him on ladder because of the way he plays. But is simply disqualified from being considered the best. Uck.Of course that's my opinion. And I get that people can differ. But it's weird how he ALWAYS shows up. It's like everyone is using some bizarre criteria and it makes sense to them but not to me.So strange for me.
I am in the same boat bro.
I like Taeja, and he is a great player, but I honestly don't see the hype around him.
Innovation, MVP, and even Flash are just as good, and maybe better.
On January 19 2015 12:05 forsooth wrote: Mvp will always be my favorite, it's hard to see him fade into irrelevance, especially because of injury.
Yeah, I really like seeing really dominant players (like Flash in BW, or Mvp for SC2) as it usually means that there is a clear difference in skill, and that skill is being represented accurately. Though, while skill obviously matters in SC2, I would say towards the top, the randomness starts to play a bigger and bigger role in the game, lowering the quality of the matches.
But I will always appreciate Mvp for his dominance in WoL era.
In regards to Taeja, I've always thought of him as a top Terran, with a real knack for weekend LAN events. But there have only been a few moments where I thought "Taeja is most definitely the best Terran right now" and those moments have never lasted that extremely long. Comparing a weekend tournament that has maybe 8-16 top-tier players in it to a fully Korean tournament with ~every top-tier player in it with the players practicing almost entirely for it (GSL) is just a bit silly. Taeja needs to win some GSL's before he can hold the title of "Best Terran ever" in SC2. While I wouldn't say Innovation has reached that state either, I'd say Innovation has better odds of reaching it at this point, and I also think that Innovation looked quite a bit better than Taeja during their primes.
I still say that MC and Mvp are the Bonjwa's of SC2, followed closely by Taeja...
That is right you doubters,,,MC. Infact I don't even need to put up arguements to back my picking...MC's liquipedia page speaks of his Bonjwa status in both $$$ and wins.
Now he is back in GSL and topped his round of 32 group - who else has been playing as long as him and still has his level of play??? FARKN NO ONE!
On January 19 2015 12:51 AxiomBlurr wrote: I still say that MC and Mvp are the Bonjwa's of SC2, followed closely by Taeja...
That is right you doubters,,,MC. Infact I don't even need to put up arguements to back my picking...MC's liquipedia page speaks of his Bonjwa status in both $$$ and wins.
Now he is back in GSL and topped his round of 32 group - who else has been playing as long as him and still has his level of play??? FARKN NO ONE!
I'll give him a bit of credit if he can get to Ro8 in this GSL. He looked alright in his group, but he's still got to prove himself as a top-tier player in a Korean tournament again.
On January 19 2015 12:51 AxiomBlurr wrote: I still say that MC and Mvp are the Bonjwa's of SC2, followed closely by Taeja...
That is right you doubters,,,MC. Infact I don't even need to put up arguements to back my picking...MC's liquipedia page speaks of his Bonjwa status in both $$$ and wins.
Now he is back in GSL and topped his round of 32 group - who else has been playing as long as him and still has his level of play??? FARKN NO ONE!
MC would be a contender for bonjwa status, but he has a flaw that everyone knows. MC can't play a macro game if his money depended on it.
Every time he loses, its cause the opponent managed to stop his all in. MC is the king of all in, but that is his biggest strength and major flaw.
edit: When I say biggest strength, I mean he prepares for his opponent so much, that he devises an all in tailored to specifically kill his opponent. And he will use it stubbornly.
On January 19 2015 12:51 AxiomBlurr wrote: I still say that MC and Mvp are the Bonjwa's of SC2, followed closely by Taeja...
That is right you doubters,,,MC. Infact I don't even need to put up arguements to back my picking...MC's liquipedia page speaks of his Bonjwa status in both $$$ and wins.
Now he is back in GSL and topped his round of 32 group - who else has been playing as long as him and still has his level of play??? FARKN NO ONE!
On January 19 2015 12:00 -_- wrote: I legitimately don't understand how people who follow SC2 closely can consistently rate Taeja so high. There are tournaments in Korea where the best players play. Taeja doesn't win them. Taeja has had many more opportunities to play in Premier tournaments than the players who play in the competitive tournaments. Because of that, he wins more often. He also has had more practice with the different formats. So he wins at a higher clip as well.
I can't read these darn articles any more. I feel like I'm going crazy!!! I feel like people are going to look back on HOTS and consider Taeja the best Terran. And I'm going to be sitting in the corner talking to myself!!!
He's an amazing player. He has a wonderful style. Every terran should copy him on ladder because of the way he plays. But is simply disqualified from being considered the best. Uck.Of course that's my opinion. And I get that people can differ. But it's weird how he ALWAYS shows up. It's like everyone is using some bizarre criteria and it makes sense to them but not to me.So strange for me.
It's because his playstyle is different then everyone else which makes him more notable then most. It's the same reason soO went under the radar for so long despite being so strong and it took so many finals in a row for him to get noticed, his style is safe and standart macro play. (tho now it's more cheesy fucker with weird macro builds that can play standart if he wants to :D)
On January 19 2015 12:51 AxiomBlurr wrote: I still say that MC and Mvp are the Bonjwa's of SC2, followed closely by Taeja...
That is right you doubters,,,MC. Infact I don't even need to put up arguements to back my picking...MC's liquipedia page speaks of his Bonjwa status in both $$$ and wins.
Now he is back in GSL and topped his round of 32 group - who else has been playing as long as him and still has his level of play??? FARKN NO ONE!
MC would be a contender for bonjwa status, but he has a flaw that everyone knows. MC can't play a macro game if his money depended on it.
Every time he loses, its cause the opponent managed to stop his all in. MC is the king of all in, but that is his biggest strength and major flaw.
edit: When I say biggest strength, I mean he prepares for his opponent so much, that he devises an all in tailored to specifically kill his opponent. And he will use it stubbornly.
This is a general misconception about MC... whilst he is famous for his decisive all ins... he can macro extremely well~~
On January 19 2015 12:51 AxiomBlurr wrote: I still say that MC and Mvp are the Bonjwa's of SC2, followed closely by Taeja...
That is right you doubters,,,MC. Infact I don't even need to put up arguements to back my picking...MC's liquipedia page speaks of his Bonjwa status in both $$$ and wins.
Now he is back in GSL and topped his round of 32 group - who else has been playing as long as him and still has his level of play??? FARKN NO ONE!
Mvp is the king by far. Gsl code S is the premier tournament and he has the most wins. His decision making and gamesense was a thing of beauty, and he had the mechanics to back it up. Watching him consistently demolish an arguably mechanically superior mkp was always great to watch. It is a shame to see him get wrist problems because the magic of watching him play has never been replicated by anyone else.
For people wondering why taeja is being talked about is because at his best he is championship material. When he is on form he looks like he is a tier above everyone else. However, he and bomber share a tendency for one day playing brilliantly then the next day playing awful and that is why a lot of people don't rake him highly. My fondest memory of his play is some team tournament with a weird format where he reverse all killed a team, then all killed them again for 8 straight wins. At that moment he looked untouchable.
On January 19 2015 14:15 Darkhorse wrote: Look at this awesome and necessary article getting half the views/comments of something with Naniwa in the title.
Comments and views are not a measure of reach. I'd wager that this gets way more unique visits, while some people just like to spam Naniwa articles with abuse/whiteknighting.
On January 19 2015 12:51 AxiomBlurr wrote: I still say that MC and Mvp are the Bonjwa's of SC2, followed closely by Taeja...
That is right you doubters,,,MC. Infact I don't even need to put up arguements to back my picking...MC's liquipedia page speaks of his Bonjwa status in both $$$ and wins.
Now he is back in GSL and topped his round of 32 group - who else has been playing as long as him and still has his level of play??? FARKN NO ONE!
Lots of pretty good players nowadays that have been playing since the first half year after launch and that are all probably around or above MC's level currently.