EPTKorea 2015: Battle for the Empty Throne - Page 11
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NeThZOR
South Africa7387 Posts
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The_Red_Viper
19533 Posts
On December 13 2014 03:45 Zealously wrote: Conversely, very few "real" KeSPA players (part of the Big 5 of KeSPA teams) have won tournaments outside Korea, often falling to "foreign" Koreans or even non-Koreans. Are they really so terrible that they can't even win a foreign tournament? Do you see how this goes both ways? Important to note is that Zest, Mvp and Nestea (just as, I believe, all of the aforementioned BW players) have played far fewer (in the vicinity of 500-1000) games than Life, Taeja and MC. Maintaining a high win rate over a greater number of games is incredibly difficult. I don't know the exact number of games Flash played in his career, but I will bet you my Life's saving it wasn't 2000+ as is the case with MC. That is just unfair to compare though, the "real" kespa guys simply didn't travel as much, ofc they won't win weekend tournaments instantly, you have "to learn" to deal with these situations too. I am pretty confident that IF these Kespa guys would go to every foreign tournament like a lot of other koreans do (like taeja for example) they would win most of the time. I don't know the exact number of games Flash played in his career, but I will bet you my Life's saving it wasn't 2000+ as is the case with MC MC has a winrate of 60% over his ~2k games. If we now filter these games to vs south koreans only (like the BW players) we get a winrate of 52% over around 1.1k games. If we now filter this again to "offline only" we get a winrate of 51.6% over ~0.7k games. So yeah, these stats are boosted by a lot of games which are a nonfactor in the BW stats. If we had the same amount of games vs foreigners back in the day these stats would be ridiculously high. So all the stats which were presented here for various players like Taeja, Life, Mvp, etc are not relevant if you want to compare them to the BW stats imo. I am really no BW elitist at all, but i try to be reasonable when i compare these things  | ||
Zealously
East Gorteau22261 Posts
I get that you think the cream of the crop BW players were more dominant than their SC2 counterparts, and they were - in terms of championship consistency. In terms of games won/lost, the difference is smaller than people think. | ||
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ANLProbe
667 Posts
On December 15 2014 02:14 Zealously wrote: Are we comparing game win rates or match win rates? If it's the first, many of SC2's "greatest champions" have win rates that are decidedly comparable to the bonjwas (for the purpose of this comparison I consider all of TBLS bonjwas) we're discussing, lagging behind only the top three. If we pick out their single best years, only Flash, Boxer and Savior stand out as superior to all SC2 champions up until this point in terms of winrates. For example, Life maintained a 66% winrate between 2012-03-01 and 2013-03-15, while MC maintained a winrate of over 70% between release and 2011-06-01. I get that you think the cream of the crop BW players were more dominant than their SC2 counterparts, and they were - in terms of championship consistency. In terms of games won/lost, the difference is smaller than people think. The difference is that BW players were only playing the top Koreans whereas Koreans now can pad their stats against foreigners and lesser Koreans. | ||
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Zealously
East Gorteau22261 Posts
On December 15 2014 02:42 ANLProbe wrote: The difference is that BW players were only playing the top Koreans whereas Koreans now can pad their stats against foreigners and lesser Koreans. That is bullshit. First, the stats I mentioned (Life 66%, MC 70%) were filtered by time vs South Korean players in offline settings. This eliminates wins against foreigners and random online cups. Second, there were bottom players in Brood War just as there are in SC2, and any top player would ultimately come to face them in Proleague and Dual Tournament qualifiers for the Starleagues. You could even use MC (called IrOn at the time) as an example: I think he had a record in televised matches that amounted to a 10% or below winrate. Hell, one could even argue that bonjwas "padded" their win rates by beating players they were far superior to, because the gap between a player like Flash and a player at the bottom was extremely wide, and there were fewer players that could play at his level. In SC2, there are a lot of really great players that are all more or less capable of beating each other on a given Sunday. | ||
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REyeM
2674 Posts
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Cheren
United States2911 Posts
because the gap between a player like Flash and a player at the bottom was extremely wide, and there were fewer players that could play at his level. In SC2, there are a lot of really great players that are all more or less capable of beating each other on a given Sunday. and this is why the term bonjwa should be used for BW and not SC2, because it's a game where the best player in the world can be miles above the 3rd best player. in sc2 even mvp, mc, and life were beatable by any player in the top 20. And that doesn't make BW a better game. It's a lot easier to be dominant in basketball or tennis than in most sports, but that doesn't make basketball and tennis better than baseball, soccer, or American football where you have a lot more parity. | ||
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Shuffleblade
Sweden1903 Posts
Both those players stood when others fell, the only other player on this list to do that when their race was doing that bad is Taeja and that is not realistic. Zest had an awesome year, this year was to 70% ruled by protoss, what did Zest win after the T patch? | ||
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Cricketer12
United States13949 Posts
On December 15 2014 06:19 Shuffleblade wrote: soO or Life are the only ones that could realistically do it, seriously soO did everything this year through a very protoss favored meta and Life did most his heavy results this year when TvT was the staple. Both those players stood when others fell, the only other player on this list to do that when their race was doing that bad is Taeja and that is not realistic. Zest had an awesome year, this year was to 70% ruled by protoss, what did Zest win after the T patch? As I expected...losing to Inno was too much...soO is broken he may never come back. Life however you can never count out. | ||
nimdil
Poland3746 Posts
But not before Heart of the Swarm that was the real game equalizer. | ||
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Tanzklaue
Germany1412 Posts
gogo bosstoss! | ||
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Parcelleus
Australia1662 Posts
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Madars
Latvia166 Posts
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Zealously
East Gorteau22261 Posts
On December 15 2014 18:53 nimdil wrote: But not before Heart of the Swarm that was the real game equalizer. If we call the Global championship-thing Mvp won a GSL I think we can go far enough out of our way to say the same about WCS Global | ||
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Philozovic
France1676 Posts
Mvp was scary not only because he won but because it felt that he could win just by showing up and feel like it. He had that aura of invincibility that only one player ever match. And that player is life. When he was at his peak it was like the kid just couldn't go down. Even down 0-3 against DRG I was worried for the Dong. Think about it he got 2nd at TSL4 and then won GSL MLG MLG blizzcup Ironsquid in the span of 6 months .... Undefeated in BO5+ LAN for 19 matchs (that's more than 13 MONTHS !!!) only being defeated by Taeja the 20th time. Then the battle is for third place between BOGUS (who needs to win and not just be frightening) and Taeja (who needs to prove himself in Korea). MC is by far the most over rated player in the history of the game. Suicide toss is at a mediocre 52% all time against korean and that drops to a pathetic 44% offline in hearth of the swarm. His name should not even be mention here. Zest and soO well they kind of need to qualify first before winning something .... | ||
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Korakys
New Zealand272 Posts
I hope that 3 years after Legacy comes out they will stop releasing balance patches. | ||
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mangomango
United States265 Posts
Thank you stuchiu. Thank you TeamLiquid. | ||
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ANLProbe
667 Posts
On December 16 2014 01:20 Philozovic wrote: There is only one candidate ! Mvp was scary not only because he won but because it felt that he could win just by showing up and feel like it. He had that aura of invincibility that only one player ever match. And that player is life. When he was at his peak it was like the kid just couldn't go down. Even down 0-3 against DRG I was worried for the Dong. Think about it he got 2nd at TSL4 and then won GSL MLG MLG blizzcup Ironsquid in the span of 6 months .... Undefeated in BO5+ LAN for 19 matchs (that's more than 13 MONTHS !!!) only being defeated by Taeja the 20th time. Then the battle is for third place between BOGUS (who needs to win and not just be frightening) and Taeja (who needs to prove himself in Korea). MC is by far the most over rated player in the history of the game. Suicide toss is at a mediocre 52% all time against korean and that drops to a pathetic 44% offline in hearth of the swarm. His name should not even be mention here. Zest and soO well they kind of need to qualify first before winning something .... To be fair, Life hasn't exactly done very well in GSL since 2013 (when Zerg wasn't overpowered). He has only made it to the ro8 or higher once and that was this year S1. | ||
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FrostedMiniWheats
United States30730 Posts
On December 15 2014 18:53 nimdil wrote: But not before Heart of the Swarm that was the real game equalizer. Surprised nobody mentioned Maru yet. Against all odds (being on Prime :p) he won an OSL post-HotS. | ||
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Philozovic
France1676 Posts
On December 17 2014 04:49 ANLProbe wrote: To be fair, Life hasn't exactly done very well in GSL since 2013 (when Zerg wasn't overpowered). He has only made it to the ro8 or higher once and that was this year S1. Beeing mvp like is not just about the result it's about beeing feared, it's about making the other guy shaking and shiting in his pant. Life was so scary, just remember that one dreamhack where he was eliminated by Sjow, everyone one thought he had tourney won before it even starts. No one inspired as much fear ! | ||
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