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On November 20 2014 06:25 DinoMight wrote:Show nested quote +On November 20 2014 06:07 Wombat_NI wrote:
More and more spells and abilities is much, much more confusing to an uninitiated player than good unit control surely?
I'm still interested to see what comes up though, initial vids weren't what excited me in terms of content, just that they showed Blizzard are really messing around with things
I'm still baffled at why some of Lalush's ideas on air control weren't implemented though. Yet again it's a 'make it faster' in the case of a Banshee, like the Oracle and the Muta before it This. When I watched Dota, where each hero has 4 or more abilities (+ any abilities from items that they have purchased) and there are 10 heroes, team fights made absolutely no sense to me at all. I have zero idea what is going on, who is on what team, who is winning, who is losing, etc. until the dust settles. (I know a lot more Dota so this is less of an issue now but this is when I was a total beginner). But watching someone pick up and drop Immortals to dodge missile shots, for example, is inherently understandable. This guy is shooting at that guy, and that guy is avoiding the shots. If anything, I think PHYSICAL ACTIONS are more easily understood by viewers, especially inexperienced ones. Anyone who's played the game enough knows exactly what every spell is and what the complexity of casting it is as well as how hard any micro trick is to execute....
To this day, I have a vague knowledge of how vulture micro works. Same with wraiths, mutalisks, etc. I stopped playing BW long before I saw these things being done by pros. However, it is very visible to me whenever one player is microing his units much better than another player. Physical control is very easy to see.
For non-players, SC2 is harder to follow than BW. Too many non-visual abilities, many of which has do x extra damage to y class of unit as their main function.
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i bet casuals looked at the OP worker battle micro in brood war and thought "wtf how is he winning" and "why is that guys units just running around"
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For example, one of the most powerful buffs in Legacy of the Void that we’re seeing internally is on the Protoss. A Warp Prism performing a drop with two Immortals is ridiculously powerful. The Hardened Shield buff as well as ranged pick up works so well (if an opponent has no air units in play) that Protoss always gets a huge lead in the mid-game.
Calling him out on this in PvT due to the fact that if 2 cyclones target the WP it's basically ineffective. It may, as he implies, be very hard to kill the immortals but most good players will understand how to stop this.
We’d like to focus on changing the problematic parts of this system for mining
But their approach does not fix the fundamental problem, thus it is inadequate.
In our internal pre-alpha build, we’re already exploring completely different changes, making tweaks to existing things, adding/removing units and abilities, and so on.
This at least makes me happy.
I am not really sure where they are planning on going with the WarpGate research assuming they keep the 8 second warp in and 200%(?) damage on units. If that is the case then it is ultimately better to just manually produce your units by 8 seconds and saves you losing anything in a stupid way. In terms of overall efficiency, assuming you're warping in 4 rounds of stalkers every 30 seconds until 10 minutes you'd end up with nearly nearly a minute of extra unit production manually from between 7-10 minutes. That's a pretty big deal and definitely caters to defenders advantage.
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On November 20 2014 07:14 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On November 20 2014 07:13 The_Red_Viper wrote:
You guys need to realize that "invisible micro" isn't really a thing for most of us cause we are pretty "hardcore" in the first place.
If you look at it withotu this "bias" it makes sense imo. First, I would like to know what they mean by " micro in the game that can’t really be seen".
Well i am not blizzard, but my guess would be that "invisible micro" is something like focus fire for example.
Sure, the stuff dies faster, but you only realize this if you have already experience with the game.
Another example would be the moving shot. A spectator who doesn't really watch a lot will probably be quite confused why the stuff dies in the first place when the unit still moves around (at least if you don't have extremely visible projectiles).
I mean just compare this to say marine splits.
Typically marines move in a blob and from one second to the other they spread like crazy.
It is extremely visible and pretty much anybody can understand that the player actually had to do this.
You obviously can still disagree that "invisible" micro is a bad thing, but imo it makes sense.
(i actually would prefer it if they made this "invisible" micro visible instead of removing it though :D)
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Keep going people. More testimonials.
Physical control versus "other micro".
Does Blizzard's definition of visible versus invisible reflect reality?
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Russian Federation1613 Posts
On November 20 2014 07:14 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On November 20 2014 07:13 The_Red_Viper wrote:
You guys need to realize that "invisible micro" isn't really a thing for most of us cause we are pretty "hardcore" in the first place.
If you look at it withotu this "bias" it makes sense imo. First, I would like to know what they mean by " micro in the game that can’t really be seen".
As for me there are some spells that u just dont notice.
Even as hardcore player i can say that i never notice Guardian Shield, EMPs and Time Warps during battle. They are so tiny that you just dont catch them. Also, Corruption and Blinding Cloud.
Some of them, such as Corruption and Guardian Shield are just boring. But all of them have weak visuality.
That's kind of an issue.
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On November 20 2014 07:25 LaLuSh wrote:
Keep going people. More testimonials.
Physical control versus "other micro".
Does Blizzard's definition of visible versus invisible reflect reality?
Yes it does.
On November 20 2014 07:26 Jenia6109 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 20 2014 07:14 TheDwf wrote:On November 20 2014 07:13 The_Red_Viper wrote:
You guys need to realize that "invisible micro" isn't really a thing for most of us cause we are pretty "hardcore" in the first place.
If you look at it withotu this "bias" it makes sense imo. First, I would like to know what they mean by " micro in the game that can’t really be seen". As for me there are some spells that u just dont notice. Even as hardcore player i can say that i never notice Guardian Shield, EMPs and Time Warps during battle. They are so tiny that you just dont catch them. Also, Corruption and Blinding Cloud. Some of them, such as Corruption and Guardian Shield are just boring. But all of them have weak visuality. That's kind of an issue.
Pretty funny, cause this is the stuff they actually think is visible 
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They keep talking about 'obvious micro.' Can anyone give me an example of micro that 'can't be seen?' I've been watching/playing this game for about three years now and I've never heard anyone in the community complain about this... issue... that Mr. Kim seems so desperate to avoid.
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This post by Blizzard is very disheartening to me. I'm really excited for LotV but I'm disappointed with their mindset.
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On November 20 2014 07:26 Jenia6109 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 20 2014 07:14 TheDwf wrote:On November 20 2014 07:13 The_Red_Viper wrote:
You guys need to realize that "invisible micro" isn't really a thing for most of us cause we are pretty "hardcore" in the first place.
If you look at it withotu this "bias" it makes sense imo. First, I would like to know what they mean by " micro in the game that can’t really be seen". As for me there are some spells that u just dont notice. Even as hardcore player i can say that i never notice Guardian Shield, EMPs and Time Warps during battle. They are so tiny that you just dont catch them. Also, Corruption and Blinding Cloud. Some of them, such as Corruption and Guardian Shield are just boring. But all of them have weak visuality. That's kind of an issue.
What kind of quality are you watching in? The only thing that can be hard to see when action is going on is corruption. Time warp, GS, EMP and blinding cloud are easy to spot.
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On November 20 2014 07:28 Bohemond wrote:
They keep talking about 'obvious micro.' Can anyone give me an example of micro that 'can't be seen?' I've been watching/playing this game for about three years now and I've never heard anyone in the community complain about this... issue... that Mr. Kim seems so desperate to avoid.
Same, I just don't understand what it refers to. And if they want to fix visual issues, why don't they start...
![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/staff/Wunder/ClassicVSRain.jpg)
... by the very obvious? How many supply there at the first glance? Who's winning?
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On November 20 2014 07:28 Bohemond wrote:
They keep talking about 'obvious micro.' Can anyone give me an example of micro that 'can't be seen?' I've been watching/playing this game for about three years now and I've never heard anyone in the community complain about this... issue... that Mr. Kim seems so desperate to avoid.
brood war, targetting workers in a battle (units won't auto target attacking workers if there is 1+ other army units there)
ex. lings vs marine + scv... 1 marine shot and the lings will never hit the scv unless manually targetted. it is invisible micro because i'm sure people expect the lings to fight the scv but people don't realize how much micro the zerg user is doing
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On November 20 2014 07:31 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On November 20 2014 07:28 Bohemond wrote:
They keep talking about 'obvious micro.' Can anyone give me an example of micro that 'can't be seen?' I've been watching/playing this game for about three years now and I've never heard anyone in the community complain about this... issue... that Mr. Kim seems so desperate to avoid. Same, I just don't understand what it refers to. And if they want to fix visual issues, why don't they start... ... by the very obvious? How many supply there at the first glance? Who's winning?
does the new watermark effect (shown previously for units under buildings) work under colossus?
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To everyone talking about the visuals and such. I think it's actually kind of funny, I think it's absolutely impossible to tell what is going on in this game on Max Settings, however, when you use stronger team colors and the lowest settings+hybrid everything becomes incredibly clear. In fact, I stand by this so much that I'd even go so far to state that I play much much better with stronger team colors because I, as a player, KNOW WHAT I HAVE. It's that much easier to visualize your unit count and so on.
I remember for a while before the second hybrid thing came out... if I ever did a blink vs blink build I always lost because I had no idea how many stalkers I had in comparison >.>
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I too am not sure what this invisible micro is.
Unless it's the kind of micro that is blotted out by lasers.
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On November 20 2014 05:41 Surkein wrote:Show nested quote +On November 20 2014 05:28 Yonnua wrote:
The warp prism range increase really isn't a buff. Any good player can still do pick-ups as efficiently as possible with the current range "if an opponent has no air units", so it just acts as a buff for bad protoss players, skewing the game in their favour and not effecting higher levels of play. That is a huge buff. You can keep the prism easily out of the range of anything that can shoot it down, safely picking up immortals/whatever.
It really isn't a huge buff. If you have any skill then this shouldn't be an issue anyway. The prism moves quickly enough even without its upgrade that you should be able to micro immortals easily and with a small amount of practice you should also be able to pick up your gateway units with it almost all of the time. The buff doesn't effect outcomes at the highest level, it just makes it easier to hit that skill ceiling by giving more of a cushion against skill.
As for the "you can micro colossi vs vikings now" idea, it at best takes up one volley of viking fire when they right click on the prism, but no more than effectively microing them back as usual will. And that small bonus isn't needed for protoss anyway, they have no problem winning fights vs viking/bio if their army is controlled well.
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On November 20 2014 07:31 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On November 20 2014 07:28 Bohemond wrote:
They keep talking about 'obvious micro.' Can anyone give me an example of micro that 'can't be seen?' I've been watching/playing this game for about three years now and I've never heard anyone in the community complain about this... issue... that Mr. Kim seems so desperate to avoid. Same, I just don't understand what it refers to. And if they want to fix visual issues, why don't they start... ... by the very obvious? How many supply there at the first glance? Who's winning?
I tried to explain it from my pov.
As i said before, people on TL might not have these problems as much, cause they are pretty "hardcore" to begin with
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So as a conclusion:
1) Noone really knows what invisible micro is. Especially not what blizzard perceives as such.
2) Noone is really in favor of removing micro from the game.
3) People think there are many other cool improvements that could be made and blizzard is wasting their time removing micro.
4) Noone has any clue why David Kim even made that comment to begin with.
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Russian Federation1613 Posts
On November 20 2014 07:30 H0i wrote:Show nested quote +On November 20 2014 07:26 Jenia6109 wrote:On November 20 2014 07:14 TheDwf wrote:On November 20 2014 07:13 The_Red_Viper wrote:
You guys need to realize that "invisible micro" isn't really a thing for most of us cause we are pretty "hardcore" in the first place.
If you look at it withotu this "bias" it makes sense imo. First, I would like to know what they mean by " micro in the game that can’t really be seen". As for me there are some spells that u just dont notice. Even as hardcore player i can say that i never notice Guardian Shield, EMPs and Time Warps during battle. They are so tiny that you just dont catch them. Also, Corruption and Blinding Cloud. Some of them, such as Corruption and Guardian Shield are just boring. But all of them have weak visuality. That's kind of an issue. What kind of quality are you watching in? The only thing that can be hard to see when action is going on is corruption. Time warp, GS, EMP and blinding cloud are easy to spot.
Ok, compare Psy Storm and EMP. There is definetely a difference.
You don't need to "spot" Psy Storm, it's massive! But you can never tell how many EMPs there were...
Also, you can see Psy Storm in any quality, even in 240p.
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Will nobody comment on my example of invisible micro? 
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EPT
