On November 20 2014 06:07 Wombat_NI wrote: More and more spells and abilities is much, much more confusing to an uninitiated player than good unit control surely?
I'm still interested to see what comes up though, initial vids weren't what excited me in terms of content, just that they showed Blizzard are really messing around with things
I'm still baffled at why some of Lalush's ideas on air control weren't implemented though. Yet again it's a 'make it faster' in the case of a Banshee, like the Oracle and the Muta before it
This.
When I watched Dota, where each hero has 4 or more abilities (+ any abilities from items that they have purchased) and there are 10 heroes, team fights made absolutely no sense to me at all. I have zero idea what is going on, who is on what team, who is winning, who is losing, etc. until the dust settles. (I know a lot more Dota so this is less of an issue now but this is when I was a total beginner).
But watching someone pick up and drop Immortals to dodge missile shots, for example, is inherently understandable. This guy is shooting at that guy, and that guy is avoiding the shots.
If anything, I think PHYSICAL ACTIONS are more easily understood by viewers, especially inexperienced ones.
Anyone who's played the game enough knows exactly what every spell is and what the complexity of casting it is as well as how hard any micro trick is to execute....
On November 20 2014 05:45 LaLuSh wrote: I'm quick to "overreact".
But for the life of me I cannot understand how they came to the conclusion that:
LOW SUPPLY COUNT = SLOW AND BORING GAMEPLAY
Was there someone to provide counterarguments when that discussion took place? To me it's just a random belief which automatically is held to be true.
Less supply and lower tech units = less explosions and lasers. We're going by the Michael Bay theory of entertainment here maybe?
There will still be interactions between small amounts of units. What you lose out on with this is a lot of build orders wins. I like the idea of a early game with more units, more focus on early scouting and quicker expanding giving you moe attack points and more to defend.
What is it you will miss from having a lower worker count to start of with?
I like the few minutes at the start to collect yourself. I like the small battles with only a couple units where you can get maximum efficiency out of almost nothing. I like cheese! Scouting is gonna be important either way, and they can force more expansions more quickly through other means.
I found the two first minuttes boring and I allways tuned out while doing it. You will still have small battles, why do you think they will disapear? You enjoyed being cannon rushed? I didnt. You can still chees to some extent, since people will allways try to win the greed war to get ahead which opens up for exploiting that. Scouting is more important since you can throw down your first tech building quicker which means you need to know which route your oponent is going quicker insted of jsut knowing if hes building up or cheesing. Which other means would you sugest?
Well, we could always try BW economy, where a normal amount of workers mines more efficiently on more bases, to help prevent the 3 base economy cap.
That is indeed another option and I would love to know why they discarded that idea or why they think this one is better.
I personally think what they are sugesting at the moment could be a good way to go as well. Certanly I think its better then the current model.
There is a long way to go still and pro players needs to test it out to have a proper overview. I assume they will make changes where its needed.
My only point is that people seem to sugest or outright claim that Blizzard is incompetente or that they intentionally wants to make things bad for no reason other then that they suck, and I find that just silly.
Things need to be fleshed out and it will, but you can see a clear path they want to take and they are willing to change things up. I see that as something positive.
Of course people should provide feedback and tell them when things sucks but I dont see anything from the alpha show that justifies all the negativity I see from some people. Other then that some had a very specific way they they wanted legacy to be and blizzard went another route.
On November 20 2014 06:07 Wombat_NI wrote: More and more spells and abilities is much, much more confusing to an uninitiated player than good unit control surely?
I'm still interested to see what comes up though, initial vids weren't what excited me in terms of content, just that they showed Blizzard are really messing around with things
I'm still baffled at why some of Lalush's ideas on air control weren't implemented though. Yet again it's a 'make it faster' in the case of a Banshee, like the Oracle and the Muta before it
This.
When I watched Dota, where each hero has 4 or more abilities (+ any abilities from items that they have purchased) and there are 10 heroes, team fights made absolutely no sense to me at all. I have zero idea what is going on, who is on what team, who is winning, who is losing, etc. until the dust settles. (I know a lot more Dota so this is less of an issue now but this is when I was a total beginner).
But watching someone pick up and drop Immortals to dodge missile shots, for example, is inherently understandable. This guy is shooting at that guy, and that guy is avoiding the shots.
If anything, I think PHYSICAL ACTIONS are more easily understood by viewers, especially inexperienced ones.
Anyone who's played the game enough knows exactly what every spell is and what the complexity of casting it is as well as how hard any micro trick is to execute....
Yup, but your example - the pick up - is an ability too. As you say, the physical part of it is what makes it visually understandable. I think a lot of abiliies have this, e.g. transport, blink, burrow, stim splitting/kiting (through the speedbonus), the herc grapple. Going back to pick up, i think what makes it parriculary good is that it doesnt control like an abilty. It is on smartcommand, rightclicking the unit on the transport or the other way around makes it fun to execute without extra buttons. I think RTS could greatly improve if it used a greater variety of abilities on the basic 3mousekeys and on "smartcommand".
I still got a wish for Blizzard to make some disabler type of units rather than damaging ones
The "Total Annihilation Spider" is an example of such a unit - a perfect addition to the game that may or may not disassemble death-balls (though the Viper from HotS, now Cyclone and the Ravager and Swarm Host, and Tempest disintegration changes for example are a really good death-ball disassemblers), but would surely liked some added variety to the types units - i.e. - variety to how those units are working
IDK about you, but I surely am sick & tired all games revolve around those dreaded Marines, would've rather much want to play/watch unit comps (thank god for the new Oracle's and Infestor's new abilities) rather than Marine drops all game long, honestly
The problem with their "we'll add micro!" campaign is that they don't seem to understand what is micro (or rather interesting micro) in Starcraft to begin with. They seem to have a MOBA (or War3-like, but it cannot work when applied to a different genre) conception about it; but microing ≠ casting a spell. It is no coincidence if the race that received the biggest amount of SC2 nonsense, Protoss, has the most spellcasters—and despite that is not the most micro-intensive race!
No one yells "great micro!" when a Terran presses 1T. Activating Cloak is the trivial part of Banshee micro. Waaah, the l4z0r of your Void ray is twice its size after you pressed the button; how thrilling. Micro is so much more than clicking buttons that trigger a mere bonus effect. It is about reflexes, mouse accuracy, speed of execution, anticipating adverse movements… Probably the spell that manages to add the most depth based on this is Blink, but Protoss has to pay a heavy tribute for that.
Pay special attention to the kind of environement in which Blink micro is the most efficient: low or medium eco situations with only a handful of units. Certainly not the 150-200 supply scenarii which are nonetheless constantly featured since more than 2 years… If you want to see "more micro," how about allowing players to play more low or medium eco situations in which more interactions like this can occur? But instead of that you promote the high eco model that propels players towards the fateful "big engagements" in which the battle is won or lost in the 4 first seconds.
Please work on solid fundamentals. An economy that makes sense. Simple units with elegant interactions. Don't bother adding 36 buttons to the Thor or the Colossus, they would still be garbage. Showering the game in MOBA gimmicks to create fake excitement that will die 4 months after LotV is out is not the way to go…
Everything in the game so far is just a snapshot of where we’re at in development, and nothing is set in stone at this point. For instance, it’s absolutely not determined that Protoss will only get one unit while other races will get two. The final new unit count is not yet decided. We want to do what’s right for the races and the game, and it’s just too early to make a call on the final new unit count for Legacy of the Void right now.
I'm reminded of the time that Blizzard artificially created good will for themselves by pretending they were going to remove the Carrier only to perform an act of blatant fan service by reintroducing it in HotS beta.
Who wants to bet that the question of the new protoss unit will be left in the air and only revealed at some opportune moment?
They tok feedback into account and reintroduced a unit, that was bad because?
They probably will add new units still, they might remove some and change others. They will probably announce it in a way which will be good for their company. That is bad because?
It's bad because we all know that they will add another unit to protoss. They just hadn't come up with a functional one yet for Blizzcon. They're still planning to add a new unit, but they are pretending to still be discussing it so that they can positively surprise us at a later date with their most recent creation. i.e. they're lying to us for PR reasons
At least I imagine so. It doesn't really matter of course, just that it's a bit silly to read too much into Blizzard PR.
No conspiracy here.
This is part of the development process. You add/remove/change stuff all the time. BlizzCon was just a snapshot of where Legacy of the Void development is at, so it's a bit too early to make definitive statements on what the end result will look like.
Everything in the game so far is just a snapshot of where we’re at in development, and nothing is set in stone at this point. For instance, it’s absolutely not determined that Protoss will only get one unit while other races will get two. The final new unit count is not yet decided. We want to do what’s right for the races and the game, and it’s just too early to make a call on the final new unit count for Legacy of the Void right now.
I'm reminded of the time that Blizzard artificially created good will for themselves by pretending they were going to remove the Carrier only to perform an act of blatant fan service by reintroducing it in HotS beta.
Who wants to bet that the question of the new protoss unit will be left in the air and only revealed at some opportune moment?
They tok feedback into account and reintroduced a unit, that was bad because?
They probably will add new units still, they might remove some and change others. They will probably announce it in a way which will be good for their company. That is bad because?
It's bad because we all know that they will add another unit to protoss. They just hadn't come up with a functional one yet for Blizzcon. They're still planning to add a new unit, but they are pretending to still be discussing it so that they can positively surprise us at a later date with their most recent creation. i.e. they're lying to us for PR reasons
At least I imagine so. It doesn't really matter of course, just that it's a bit silly to read too much into Blizzard PR.
No conspiracy here.
This is part of the development process. You add/remove/change stuff all the time. BlizzCon was just a snapshot of where Legacy of the Void development is at, so it's a bit too early to make definitive statements on what the end result will look like.
Glad to see you guys are lurking this thread. Also, please pay special attention the the post directly above you. I agree with it immensely.
On November 20 2014 06:07 Wombat_NI wrote: More and more spells and abilities is much, much more confusing to an uninitiated player than good unit control surely?
I'm still interested to see what comes up though, initial vids weren't what excited me in terms of content, just that they showed Blizzard are really messing around with things
I'm still baffled at why some of Lalush's ideas on air control weren't implemented though. Yet again it's a 'make it faster' in the case of a Banshee, like the Oracle and the Muta before it
This.
When I watched Dota, where each hero has 4 or more abilities (+ any abilities from items that they have purchased) and there are 10 heroes, team fights made absolutely no sense to me at all. I have zero idea what is going on, who is on what team, who is winning, who is losing, etc. until the dust settles. (I know a lot more Dota so this is less of an issue now but this is when I was a total beginner).
But watching someone pick up and drop Immortals to dodge missile shots, for example, is inherently understandable. This guy is shooting at that guy, and that guy is avoiding the shots.
If anything, I think PHYSICAL ACTIONS are more easily understood by viewers, especially inexperienced ones.
Anyone who's played the game enough knows exactly what every spell is and what the complexity of casting it is as well as how hard any micro trick is to execute....
It's all opinions when it comes to what is visible versus what is invisible micro. This entire mess of a discussion is all based on opinions and beliefs about design.
We could let reality decide what's true by just playtesting.
Everything in the game so far is just a snapshot of where we’re at in development, and nothing is set in stone at this point. For instance, it’s absolutely not determined that Protoss will only get one unit while other races will get two. The final new unit count is not yet decided. We want to do what’s right for the races and the game, and it’s just too early to make a call on the final new unit count for Legacy of the Void right now.
I'm reminded of the time that Blizzard artificially created good will for themselves by pretending they were going to remove the Carrier only to perform an act of blatant fan service by reintroducing it in HotS beta.
Who wants to bet that the question of the new protoss unit will be left in the air and only revealed at some opportune moment?
They tok feedback into account and reintroduced a unit, that was bad because?
They probably will add new units still, they might remove some and change others. They will probably announce it in a way which will be good for their company. That is bad because?
It's bad because we all know that they will add another unit to protoss. They just hadn't come up with a functional one yet for Blizzcon. They're still planning to add a new unit, but they are pretending to still be discussing it so that they can positively surprise us at a later date with their most recent creation. i.e. they're lying to us for PR reasons
At least I imagine so. It doesn't really matter of course, just that it's a bit silly to read too much into Blizzard PR.
No conspiracy here.
This is part of the development process. You add/remove/change stuff all the time. BlizzCon was just a snapshot of where Legacy of the Void development is at, so it's a bit too early to make definitive statements on what the end result will look like.
Everything in the game so far is just a snapshot of where we’re at in development, and nothing is set in stone at this point. For instance, it’s absolutely not determined that Protoss will only get one unit while other races will get two. The final new unit count is not yet decided. We want to do what’s right for the races and the game, and it’s just too early to make a call on the final new unit count for Legacy of the Void right now.
I'm reminded of the time that Blizzard artificially created good will for themselves by pretending they were going to remove the Carrier only to perform an act of blatant fan service by reintroducing it in HotS beta.
Who wants to bet that the question of the new protoss unit will be left in the air and only revealed at some opportune moment?
They tok feedback into account and reintroduced a unit, that was bad because?
They probably will add new units still, they might remove some and change others. They will probably announce it in a way which will be good for their company. That is bad because?
It's bad because we all know that they will add another unit to protoss. They just hadn't come up with a functional one yet for Blizzcon. They're still planning to add a new unit, but they are pretending to still be discussing it so that they can positively surprise us at a later date with their most recent creation. i.e. they're lying to us for PR reasons
At least I imagine so. It doesn't really matter of course, just that it's a bit silly to read too much into Blizzard PR.
No conspiracy here.
This is part of the development process. You add/remove/change stuff all the time. BlizzCon was just a snapshot of where Legacy of the Void development is at, so it's a bit too early to make definitive statements on what the end result will look like.
On November 20 2014 06:51 TheDwf wrote: The problem with their "we'll add micro!" campaign is that they don't seem to understand what is micro (or rather interesting micro) in Starcraft to begin with. They seem to have a MOBA (or War3-like, but it cannot work when applies to a different genre) conception about it; but microing ≠ casting a spell. It is no coincidence if the race that received the biggest amount of SC2 nonsense, Protoss, has the most spellcasters—and despite that is not the most micro-intensive race!
No one yells "great micro!" when a Terran presses 1T. Activating Cloak is the trivial part of Banshee micro. Waaah, the l4z0r of your Void ray is twice its size after you pressed the button; how thrilling. Micro is so much more than clicking buttons that trigger a mere bonus effect. It is about reflexes, mouse accuracy, speed of execution, anticipating adverse movements… Probably the spell that manages to add the most depth based on this is Blink, but Protoss has to pay a heavy tribute for that.
Pay special attention to the kind of environement in which Blink micro is the most efficient: low or medium eco situations with only a handful of units. Certainly not the 150-200 supply scenarii which are nonetheless constantly featured since more than 2 years… If you want to see "more micro," how about allowing players to play more low or medium eco situations in which more interactions like this can occur? But instead of that you promote the high eco model that propels players towards the fateful "big engagements" in which the battle is won or lost in the 4 first seconds.
Please work on solid fundamentals. An economy that makes sense. Simple units with elegant interactions. Don't bother adding 36 buttons to the Thor or the Colossus, they would still be garbage. Showering the game in MOBA gimmicks to create fake excitement that will die 4 months after LotV is out is not the way to go…
Amen. Could not be said better. I am very worried about the statement about removing "micro that is not visible".
You guys need to realize that "invisible micro" isn't really a thing for most of us cause we are pretty "hardcore" in the first place. If you look at it withotu this "bias" it makes sense imo.
On November 20 2014 07:13 The_Red_Viper wrote: You guys need to realize that "invisible micro" isn't really a thing for most of us cause we are pretty "hardcore" in the first place. If you look at it withotu this "bias" it makes sense imo.
First, I would like to know what they mean by "micro in the game that can’t really be seen".
On November 20 2014 06:51 TheDwf wrote: The problem with their "we'll add micro!" campaign is that they don't seem to understand what is micro (or rather interesting micro) in Starcraft to begin with. They seem to have a MOBA (or War3-like, but it cannot work when applies to a different genre) conception about it; but microing ≠ casting a spell. It is no coincidence if the race that received the biggest amount of SC2 nonsense, Protoss, has the most spellcasters—and despite that is not the most micro-intensive race!
No one yells "great micro!" when a Terran presses 1T. Activating Cloak is the trivial part of Banshee micro. Waaah, the l4z0r of your Void ray is twice its size after you pressed the button; how thrilling. Micro is so much more than clicking buttons that trigger a mere bonus effect. It is about reflexes, mouse accuracy, speed of execution, anticipating adverse movements… Probably the spell that manages to add the most depth based on this is Blink, but Protoss has to pay a heavy tribute for that.
Pay special attention to the kind of environement in which Blink micro is the most efficient: low or medium eco situations with only a handful of units. Certainly not the 150-200 supply scenarii which are nonetheless constantly featured since more than 2 years… If you want to see "more micro," how about allowing players to play more low or medium eco situations in which more interactions like this can occur? But instead of that you promote the high eco model that propels players towards the fateful "big engagements" in which the battle is won or lost in the 4 first seconds.
Please work on solid fundamentals. An economy that makes sense. Simple units with elegant interactions. Don't bother adding 36 buttons to the Thor or the Colossus, they would still be garbage. Showering the game in MOBA gimmicks to create fake excitement that will die 4 months after LotV is out is not the way to go…
Finally I agree with something you said!
I think slapping on these abilities to "require micro" is not the right way to do it. Okay, so now I have to press 'E' before I fight with my Immortals... ZZZZZZZZZZ
Micro is:
Splitting Marines to mitigate baneling splash Blinking Stalkers to keep them alive, using Blink to make widow mines detonate on Terran units (Parting, HSC) Picking up and dropping units to dodge shots Pulling back hurt workers to fight Zealots with Drones (Life vs First, THAT game on Deadwing)
Some can be ability based, but there's a good amount of right clicking too.
There's a difference between "micro" and "good control" really.
I don't consider stimming your marines, target firing all the Colossus and hitting EMPs to be micro. That's just good army control really. You're just efficiently inputing a sequence of commands.
Kiting Zealots with your bio is micro. Sending off individual lings to detonate Widow Mines is micro.
Blizzard needs to distinguish between "shit you need to do" and "micro."
Invisible micro IS micro. It's the truest form of micro really. Spell casting is just using the unit how it's supposed to be used, that's just controlling it. Microing it properly is what makes a unit go from normal to super effective. Hellions were a good idea, there AoE allows them to be used in a way where real micro is both possible and very visible, hit as much stuff with the line as possible. Even a full blown idiot can understand that.
EPT
