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On November 08 2014 20:25 Vindicare605 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2014 19:27 [17]Purple wrote:On November 08 2014 19:09 HolydaKing wrote:On November 08 2014 18:44 -Archangel- wrote:
Those cyclones lol Seriously, what the fuck. -2 range at least and they might be a bit more balanced. That showmatch was painful from Zerg point of view. And the Protoss one showed that Zerg anti air still sucks. From these show matches I'm feeling Zerg will not be very good at LotV, but then again, maybe the pros played bad and it definitely will get a lot of patches before release. Jjakji and Stardust basically refused to make speedlings against that tiny Diamond Back,not saying that the Cyclone is balanced as it is but the units they kept throwing at it were definitely not the right ones to deal with it. Say they did, I'm having a hard time theorycrafting a reason why Blue Flame Hellions + Cyclones WOULDN'T just decimate everything Zerg can make before a spire hits the field and from there it's just a simple matter to add in a few Thors. The Range on the Cyclones is one problem, the DPS is another, but even when you deal with the stats of those to make it more fair, the mobility and ability to deal with Armored units that would normally counter Hellions makes them too much. I like the Cyclones, I think they look fun as hell, but they just seem way too overpowered in TvZ in their current state.
I was mostly refering to the fact that 2 Cyclones shared about 70 kills between them before Terran ended the game by showing Battlecruisers. I do agree with you that the Hellion+Cyclone (theocraftically) seems unstoppable.
Personally I think they should be gated behind the Armory (pretty sure they didn't need that) or maybe increase the acquisition time to fire or something. I'm sure someone smarter than me will figure it out. If I had to bet on which unit was going to be drastically changed before release, I'd put the Cyclone as #1.
I think the comparisons to the Warhound are justified for its apparent strength but I also enjoy that at least instead of making a Mechanical Marauder, Blizzard made a ground based pheonix.
On November 08 2014 20:38 Tiaraju9 wrote:
I did not play Broodwar.
What's about lurkers? They seem very weak, easy to kill and micro away.
Savior Lurker Stop That's mainly why they are so hyped up from Broodwar. If they play anything close like that in SC2, we will have to see.
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Oh man, when will the vods of the second exibition match finally be uploaded...? <.<
I remember amateur content producers uploading the vods faster than the official Blizzard production.
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On November 08 2014 20:20 Tppz! wrote:
I cant believe that some idiot already made balancewhines after 2 games with players never even seen those units before or not even playing their mainrace. Wake the fuck up its not even a beta and we all know how the community made the game bad in the first 2 betas. Pls think before circlejerking instantly
Well, the Ravager just looks utterly useless beside his ability to destroy Forcefields. Not really balance whine, but even a Bronze league player who never touched the game would probably be able to dodge that shot :-P
and of course the Cyclone looks insanely strong right now. But they'll adjust these things, of course.
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On November 08 2014 20:39 [17]Purple wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2014 20:25 Vindicare605 wrote:On November 08 2014 19:27 [17]Purple wrote:On November 08 2014 19:09 HolydaKing wrote:On November 08 2014 18:44 -Archangel- wrote:
Those cyclones lol Seriously, what the fuck. -2 range at least and they might be a bit more balanced. That showmatch was painful from Zerg point of view. And the Protoss one showed that Zerg anti air still sucks. From these show matches I'm feeling Zerg will not be very good at LotV, but then again, maybe the pros played bad and it definitely will get a lot of patches before release. Jjakji and Stardust basically refused to make speedlings against that tiny Diamond Back,not saying that the Cyclone is balanced as it is but the units they kept throwing at it were definitely not the right ones to deal with it. Say they did, I'm having a hard time theorycrafting a reason why Blue Flame Hellions + Cyclones WOULDN'T just decimate everything Zerg can make before a spire hits the field and from there it's just a simple matter to add in a few Thors. The Range on the Cyclones is one problem, the DPS is another, but even when you deal with the stats of those to make it more fair, the mobility and ability to deal with Armored units that would normally counter Hellions makes them too much. I like the Cyclones, I think they look fun as hell, but they just seem way too overpowered in TvZ in their current state. I was mostly refering to the fact that 2 Cyclones shared about 70 kills between them before Terran ended the game by showing Battlecruisers. I do agree with you that the Hellion+Cyclone (theocraftically) seems unstoppable. Personally I think they should be gated behind the Armory (pretty sure they didn't need that) or maybe increase the acquisition time to fire or something. I'm sure someone smarter than me will figure it out. If I had to bet on which unit was going to be drastically changed before release, I'd put the Cyclone as #1. I think the comparisons to the Warhound are justified for its apparent strength but I also enjoy that at least instead of making a Mechanical Marauder, Blizzard made a ground based pheonix.
Of course the show match was pre-alpha and obviously there's no WAY that Blizzard would ever let Cyclones get into the game in that state.
But just from a design point of view, Blizzard I think made a mistake introducing a mobile unit designed for early game play into a match up that already had a very delicate and very interesting I might add early game dynamic for establishing map control.
This is exacerbated by the economy changes that make that early game map control that much more important.
Would Cyclones be as problematic in TvP or TvT? Probably not, but what they do to TvZ is just too detrimental.
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On November 08 2014 20:42 JustPassingBy wrote:
Oh man, when will the vods of the second exibition match finally be uploaded...? <.<
I remember amateur content producers uploading the vods faster than the official Blizzard production.
You can watch here: http://us.battle.net/blizzcon/en/live-stream/
The showmatches begin at 13 hour mark.
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On November 08 2014 20:26 404AlphaSquad wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2014 20:21 Tyrhanius wrote:On November 08 2014 20:17 -Archangel- wrote:Well any real zerg would have made mass mutalisks ve terran with no real antiair  The Stardust was just trying on new units which work worse if made alone vs new units of terran. I am sure in real matches, it is going to work differently. Any real Terran have win the game when they drop the two siege tank, even the hero attack at first look game ending if follow by a push after. I dunno what you want to say, but if I have to guess I would say its a balancewhine.
It's beyond of imbalance, it's ridiculous. It's looks like a moba, not a RTS. How you can even make this change and seriously think the result won't as imbalance ? Can you really think if you can drop siege tank, player won't abuse this to crush their opponent early like they have done during the hellbat drop time ? Can you really think that it's a good strategic game when a race can abuse of this, while the other is clueless ?
Even it's beta, it's so uninspired, so unprofessional... Looks like they want to kill SC2 in order to get more casual player in the game. The description of the unit reminds me a League of Legend spotlight... The beta will be super long, and the result probably as shaky as when they remove the warhound, and follow again by periods of imbalance where the winnerr will be more the player who plays the OP race at the good moment, rather than the more clever or the best.
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On November 08 2014 20:48 Tyrhanius wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2014 20:26 404AlphaSquad wrote:On November 08 2014 20:21 Tyrhanius wrote:On November 08 2014 20:17 -Archangel- wrote:Well any real zerg would have made mass mutalisks ve terran with no real antiair The Stardust was just trying on new units which work worse if made alone vs new units of terran. I am sure in real matches, it is going to work differently. Any real Terran have win the game when they drop the two siege tank, even the hero attack at first look game ending if follow by a push after. I dunno what you want to say, but if I have to guess I would say its a balancewhine. It's beyond of imbalance, it's ridiculous. It's looks like a moba, not a RTS. How you can even make this change and seriously think the result won't as imbalance ? Can you really think if you can drop siege tank, player won't abuse this to crush their opponent early like they have done during the hellbat drop time ? Can you really think that it's a good strategic game when a race can abuse of this, while the other is clueless ? Even it's beta, it's so uninspired, so unprofessional... Looks like they want to kill SC2 in order to get more casual player in the game. The description of the unit reminds me a League of Legend spotlight... The beta will be super long, and the result probably as shaky as when they remove the warhound, and follow again by periods of imbalance where the winnerr will be more the player who plays the OP race at the good moment, rather than the more clever or the best.
While everyone is making conjectures, considering and thinking hypothetically, you already has all the answers that we need. Blizzard should bring you to the SC2 panel today.
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On November 08 2014 20:18 Daralii wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2014 20:17 -Archangel- wrote:Well any real zerg would have made mass mutalisks ve terran with no real antiair The Stardust was just trying on new units which work worse if made alone vs new units of terran. I am sure in real matches, it is going to work differently. Cyclones can shoot up.
Does not help them vs muta.
But I agree that range + speed is a bad combination.
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no vod for the 2nd match?
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On November 08 2014 20:39 [17]Purple wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2014 20:25 Vindicare605 wrote:On November 08 2014 19:27 [17]Purple wrote:On November 08 2014 19:09 HolydaKing wrote:On November 08 2014 18:44 -Archangel- wrote:
Those cyclones lol Seriously, what the fuck. -2 range at least and they might be a bit more balanced. That showmatch was painful from Zerg point of view. And the Protoss one showed that Zerg anti air still sucks. From these show matches I'm feeling Zerg will not be very good at LotV, but then again, maybe the pros played bad and it definitely will get a lot of patches before release. Jjakji and Stardust basically refused to make speedlings against that tiny Diamond Back,not saying that the Cyclone is balanced as it is but the units they kept throwing at it were definitely not the right ones to deal with it. Say they did, I'm having a hard time theorycrafting a reason why Blue Flame Hellions + Cyclones WOULDN'T just decimate everything Zerg can make before a spire hits the field and from there it's just a simple matter to add in a few Thors. The Range on the Cyclones is one problem, the DPS is another, but even when you deal with the stats of those to make it more fair, the mobility and ability to deal with Armored units that would normally counter Hellions makes them too much. I like the Cyclones, I think they look fun as hell, but they just seem way too overpowered in TvZ in their current state. I was mostly refering to the fact that 2 Cyclones shared about 70 kills between them before Terran ended the game by showing Battlecruisers. I do agree with you that the Hellion+Cyclone (theocraftically) seems unstoppable. Personally I think they should be gated behind the Armory (pretty sure they didn't need that) or maybe increase the acquisition time to fire or something. I'm sure someone smarter than me will figure it out. If I had to bet on which unit was going to be drastically changed before release, I'd put the Cyclone as #1. I think the comparisons to the Warhound are justified for its apparent strength but I also enjoy that at least instead of making a Mechanical Marauder, Blizzard made a ground based pheonix. Show nested quote +On November 08 2014 20:38 Tiaraju9 wrote:
I did not play Broodwar.
What's about lurkers? They seem very weak, easy to kill and micro away.
Savior Lurker Stop That's mainly why they are so hyped up from Broodwar. If they play anything close like that in SC2, we will have to see.
Why would Hellion+Cyclone be unstoppable? Speedlings can and often do counter Hellions right now.
Obviously they wouldn't ship the unit being OP, and I don't even think its design is inherently OP, but... it's a dumb unit anyway. I hope it gets overhauled.
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I dont see the general idea of this expansion, exept: more random action and then we'll see.
It is cheap changes for now, i am quite desapointing. New units don't fit, seem weird in the game.
The game is going to be balance soon enought, but i don't really like the path blizzard take.
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On November 08 2014 20:42 Swisslink wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2014 20:20 Tppz! wrote:
I cant believe that some idiot already made balancewhines after 2 games with players never even seen those units before or not even playing their mainrace. Wake the fuck up its not even a beta and we all know how the community made the game bad in the first 2 betas. Pls think before circlejerking instantly Well, the Ravager just looks utterly useless beside his ability to destroy Forcefields. Not really balance whine, but even a Bronze league player who never touched the game would probably be able to dodge that shot :-P and of course the Cyclone looks insanely strong right now. But they'll adjust these things, of course.
As we all know this is the alpha. remember what happened in the last too alphas? everything got changed. nothing stayed as it was. When the beta will come wemay not even have any of those units after all.
yes teh ravager seems to be not very useful right now. but dont you think blizzard knows this as well? it will change 100%. the idea behind it is what we should look at. destroying forcefields? yes baby. thats what we wanted siince WOL alpha. we dont know the stats of the unit and we dont know how it will change but we know that breaking forcefields is the number one job of this unti and that means that an ability to break forcefields will get into beta no matter what. thats what is exiting about it - i dont care if the ravager is shit and its spell is shit besides breaking ff - it will be balanced in the end.
we also dont know how much time was put into the ideas. its blizzcon - maybe there was 1 unit missing and they just added the ravager without intense evolvement of the unit - there was only the idea of breaking ff. they made the unit in a few weeks and thats it. they arent even about balncing right now - they cant be. they are designing units only. lok at the hots beta. wasnt the widow mine a shredder and completely different? the warhound was an antiair unit and the tempest was an antimuta unit. nothing of those things came into beta like that, but they stayed with the idea behind it:
-area control through mines
-antiair buff for mech through mines
- antimuta buff for phoenix
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On November 08 2014 21:00 syroz wrote:
I dont see the general idea of this expansion, exept: more random action and then we'll see.
It is cheap changes for now, i am quite desapointing. New units don't fit, seem weird in the game.
The game is going to be balance soon enought, but i don't really like the path blizzard take.
The economy changes are very big, they alone trump the impact any new unit will add to the game.
Blizzard is FINALLY breaking up the 3 base vs 3 base standard that we've seen since WoL and forcing more active expanding.
That does a whole host of things, but what it does more than anything else is create non-stop action across the map.
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On November 08 2014 20:51 Tiaraju9 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2014 20:48 Tyrhanius wrote:On November 08 2014 20:26 404AlphaSquad wrote:On November 08 2014 20:21 Tyrhanius wrote:On November 08 2014 20:17 -Archangel- wrote:Well any real zerg would have made mass mutalisks ve terran with no real antiair The Stardust was just trying on new units which work worse if made alone vs new units of terran. I am sure in real matches, it is going to work differently. Any real Terran have win the game when they drop the two siege tank, even the hero attack at first look game ending if follow by a push after. I dunno what you want to say, but if I have to guess I would say its a balancewhine. It's beyond of imbalance, it's ridiculous. It's looks like a moba, not a RTS. How you can even make this change and seriously think the result won't as imbalance ? Can you really think if you can drop siege tank, player won't abuse this to crush their opponent early like they have done during the hellbat drop time ? Can you really think that it's a good strategic game when a race can abuse of this, while the other is clueless ? Even it's beta, it's so uninspired, so unprofessional... Looks like they want to kill SC2 in order to get more casual player in the game. The description of the unit reminds me a League of Legend spotlight... The beta will be super long, and the result probably as shaky as when they remove the warhound, and follow again by periods of imbalance where the winnerr will be more the player who plays the OP race at the good moment, rather than the more clever or the best. While everyone is making conjectures, considering and thinking hypothetically, you already has all the answers that we need. Blizzard should bring you to the SC2 panel today.
What's your level on SC2 man ? If you know the game, you notice Zerg beginning will be the exact same, while they need to deal with a lot of new threat with no new unit available at this moment. Do you think you can cost effectly counter a 2 proxy rax heros with zergling/queen ? No, of course.
You think protoss could deal with a cyclon rush like WH rush was in HOTS beta ? with the new speed of the tempest maybe...
If you have played since the begenning of WOL, you know blizzard is making again the exact same mistakes, and has learnt nothing...
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On November 08 2014 21:05 Vindicare605 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2014 21:00 syroz wrote:
I dont see the general idea of this expansion, exept: more random action and then we'll see.
It is cheap changes for now, i am quite desapointing. New units don't fit, seem weird in the game.
The game is going to be balance soon enought, but i don't really like the path blizzard take.
The economy changes are very big, they alone trump the impact any new unit will add to the game. Blizzard is FINALLY breaking up the 3 base vs 3 base standard that we've seen since WoL and forcing more active expanding. That does a whole host of things, but what it does more than anything else is create non-stop action across the map.
That's why I'm so excited.
The game as we know now is nothing like LotV.
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On November 08 2014 21:09 Tyrhanius wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2014 20:51 Tiaraju9 wrote:On November 08 2014 20:48 Tyrhanius wrote:On November 08 2014 20:26 404AlphaSquad wrote:On November 08 2014 20:21 Tyrhanius wrote:On November 08 2014 20:17 -Archangel- wrote:Well any real zerg would have made mass mutalisks ve terran with no real antiair The Stardust was just trying on new units which work worse if made alone vs new units of terran. I am sure in real matches, it is going to work differently. Any real Terran have win the game when they drop the two siege tank, even the hero attack at first look game ending if follow by a push after. I dunno what you want to say, but if I have to guess I would say its a balancewhine. It's beyond of imbalance, it's ridiculous. It's looks like a moba, not a RTS. How you can even make this change and seriously think the result won't as imbalance ? Can you really think if you can drop siege tank, player won't abuse this to crush their opponent early like they have done during the hellbat drop time ? Can you really think that it's a good strategic game when a race can abuse of this, while the other is clueless ? Even it's beta, it's so uninspired, so unprofessional... Looks like they want to kill SC2 in order to get more casual player in the game. The description of the unit reminds me a League of Legend spotlight... The beta will be super long, and the result probably as shaky as when they remove the warhound, and follow again by periods of imbalance where the winnerr will be more the player who plays the OP race at the good moment, rather than the more clever or the best. While everyone is making conjectures, considering and thinking hypothetically, you already has all the answers that we need. Blizzard should bring you to the SC2 panel today. What's your level on SC2 man ? If you know the game, you notice Zerg beginning will be the exact same, while they need to deal with a lot of new threat with no new unit available at this moment. Do you think you can cost effectly counter a 2 proxy rax heros with zergling/queen ? No, of course. You think protoss could deal with a cyclon rush like WH rush was in HOTS beta ? with the new speed of the tempest maybe... If you have played since the begenning of WOL, you know blizzard is making again the exact same mistakes, and has learnt nothing...
Toss can theoretically delay cyclones forever with FF, stasis traps, and photon overcharge. Banshees will probably prove to be the bigger issue.
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On November 08 2014 20:42 Swisslink wrote:
Well, the Ravager just looks utterly useless beside his ability to destroy Forcefields. Not really balance whine, but even a Bronze league player who never touched the game would probably be able to dodge that shot :-P
and of course the Cyclone looks insanely strong right now. But they'll adjust these things, of course.
Well the Ravager doesnt look useless. Its a Unit with an shot you can dodge with small amounts of units, like in the showmatch. But imagine a large fairly immobile Army (like Protoss Deathball ) going up against them. Suddenly it becomes very hard to dodge this projectile. This means massing up an army against them gonna be fairly hard, while with smaller troops you can outmicro them, which i think is a really cool design.
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On November 08 2014 15:08 Zenbrez wrote:
So did they not reduce saturation to 12? It's still 16, with 24 max workers
I think they just didnt want to show new maps.
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On November 08 2014 21:19 AFSpeeDy wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2014 20:42 Swisslink wrote:
Well, the Ravager just looks utterly useless beside his ability to destroy Forcefields. Not really balance whine, but even a Bronze league player who never touched the game would probably be able to dodge that shot :-P
and of course the Cyclone looks insanely strong right now. But they'll adjust these things, of course. Well the Ravager doesnt look useless. Its a Unit with an shot you can dodge with small amounts of units, like in the showmatch. But imagine a large fairly immobile Army (like Protoss Deathball ) going up against them. Suddenly it becomes very hard to dodge this projectile. This means massing up an army against them gonna be fairly hard, while with smaller troops you can outmicro them, which i think is a really cool design.
It also synergizes very well with fungal.
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On November 08 2014 21:14 Daralii wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2014 21:09 Tyrhanius wrote:On November 08 2014 20:51 Tiaraju9 wrote:On November 08 2014 20:48 Tyrhanius wrote:On November 08 2014 20:26 404AlphaSquad wrote:On November 08 2014 20:21 Tyrhanius wrote:On November 08 2014 20:17 -Archangel- wrote:Well any real zerg would have made mass mutalisks ve terran with no real antiair The Stardust was just trying on new units which work worse if made alone vs new units of terran. I am sure in real matches, it is going to work differently. Any real Terran have win the game when they drop the two siege tank, even the hero attack at first look game ending if follow by a push after. I dunno what you want to say, but if I have to guess I would say its a balancewhine. It's beyond of imbalance, it's ridiculous. It's looks like a moba, not a RTS. How you can even make this change and seriously think the result won't as imbalance ? Can you really think if you can drop siege tank, player won't abuse this to crush their opponent early like they have done during the hellbat drop time ? Can you really think that it's a good strategic game when a race can abuse of this, while the other is clueless ? Even it's beta, it's so uninspired, so unprofessional... Looks like they want to kill SC2 in order to get more casual player in the game. The description of the unit reminds me a League of Legend spotlight... The beta will be super long, and the result probably as shaky as when they remove the warhound, and follow again by periods of imbalance where the winnerr will be more the player who plays the OP race at the good moment, rather than the more clever or the best. While everyone is making conjectures, considering and thinking hypothetically, you already has all the answers that we need. Blizzard should bring you to the SC2 panel today. What's your level on SC2 man ? If you know the game, you notice Zerg beginning will be the exact same, while they need to deal with a lot of new threat with no new unit available at this moment. Do you think you can cost effectly counter a 2 proxy rax heros with zergling/queen ? No, of course. You think protoss could deal with a cyclon rush like WH rush was in HOTS beta ? with the new speed of the tempest maybe... If you have played since the begenning of WOL, you know blizzard is making again the exact same mistakes, and has learnt nothing... Toss can theoretically delay cyclones forever with FF, stasis traps, and photon overcharge. Banshees will probably prove to be the bigger issue.
Statis traps doesn't last a lot, and cyclone kill oracle/MSC/stalker/sentry, so even you can gain some time you have no unit that counter them after. Even immortal or void ray have less range so got countered. Maybe phoenix can be good, it's hard to know without testing.
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EPT
