On October 02 2014 17:41 LoneYoShi wrote: I'm super eager to know what the map pool will end up being.
As for me, I'm super afraid, but you must be the optimistic guy.
On October 02 2014 17:41 LoneYoShi wrote: Please consider using community-made maps !
... they already did with Catallena, Foxtrot Labs, Deadwing and Nimbus, which weren't that exciting nor balanced -especially Nimbus which is broken as hell, PvT is a nightmare on this map. They should just add solid maps, I don't care if they're community made or not as long as they're reasonably standard good maps.
That looks pretty cool man, hope it gets some traction soon
Wouldn't count on it, ran out of traction long ago.
On October 02 2014 19:48 Big J wrote:
On October 02 2014 19:10 Teoita wrote:
On October 02 2014 18:07 [PkF] Wire wrote: ... they already did with Catallena, Foxtrot Labs, Deadwing and Nimbus,
Along with (counting GSL/Team Crux maps) Cloud Kingdom, Daybreak, Korhal Compound, Metropolis, Ohana, Bel'shir Vestige, Frost, Habitation Station, Heavy Rain, King Sejong Station, Korhal Sky Island, Merry Go Round, Neo Planet S, Overgrowth, Polar Night, Red City, Whirlwind and Yeonsu...roughly one third (7/18) of those coming from TLMC.
Some turned out balanced and others didn't, but overall they have always been far, far better than Blizzard's maps (hello Daedalus Point!)
Well, the reason why blizzard maps aren't that good is that they try things.
so do community mappers, but they don't have a free ticket to the ladder unlike blizz maps.
Yup. That's true. But the community maps that try things also don't get upvoted by the community, unless you just cut every standard map from the contest like in that TLMC. And even then not an innovative map won, but one that was flashy and used scripts.
On October 02 2014 20:07 Meavis wrote:
On October 02 2014 19:48 Big J wrote: They have actually shown us that they are easily capable of producing standard, somewhat balanced maps (Antiga, Akilon, Entombed, Derelicted, Star Station, Heavy Rain, Newkirk...).
all of those maps had issues to some degree, and heavy rain was community made.
Every map has some issues to some degree. I thought that was a blizzard map, given how much shit they got for it.
It just seems very difficult to get people to play on community maps that aren't picked up by WCS, or previously to the current system those maps that were used by GSL/IPL etc.
It's a sucky situation that is hard to resolve. I was perusing the mapmaking section here and saw a lot that looked pretty interesting.
yup. But I think it is partly the communities fault that really good maps do not get a chance, given how little interest there is in mapmaking. (Map of the Month gets decided by what, 100votes; Great maps have what, 10comments?) Basically you need a contest like TLMC or a sponsor like RedBull to even put a spotlight on the mapmaking scene. Then blizzard picks a few of those maps and all the attention goes away again. 1month later people go back on the forums to tell everybody how blizzard doesn't care about community maps, while Gems like http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/sc2-maps/465166-2-expedition-lost have only 12replies, 3 by its own maker.
I feel fucking terrible for mapmakers when reading these threads. You're entirely correct about the community.
Was running a LAN at home and people's reticence to play on anything other than the current set of ladder maps. What chance do mapmakers have to get people playing their maps when local Irish LANs with an average league of Diamond, with a lot of them not even countenancing us having our own handpicked map pool?
I'm not even talking wacky shit, people were vociferously arguing against even the potential inclusion of Cloud Kingdom, which is one of the most-played maps of all SC2
I know TotalBiscuit's clan wars experimented a bit with having pros trying out interesting maps, what else would be possible? I think a good start would be trying to get showmatches, especially those with community chipping in financially, to use as many of the maps from the mapmaking community as possible.
It's hardly revolutionary and has been done before, I just don't know how you get such a trend going without some of the bigger community figures leading it.
I know as a viewer, unless I'm really a fan of one or both of the players that showmatches largely don't hold my interest like they used to, especially with so many tournaments to choose from/ less time to view SC. However a Bo9 showmatch on maps I haven't seen, fuck yeah!
I really think for this season they should just increase the number of vetos but also increase the map pool and include brand new maps as well with either standard or unique styles. To be honest here, it'll be neat to see how balance plays out on some of these old WoL maps because then creating new HotS maps you can use some of the features from WoL that maybe we were too nervous to use because of how imbalanced they were in WoL.
Why not have the dream pool yet also include another 5,6 or 7 blizzard or community maps. If one of more turn out really good during this off season maybe they could be incorporated into the 2015 season. Let's be honest here, even if Daybreak turns out to be an awesome map this season and it is 50% w/l ratio for every race, people won't want it in the pool because they've already had in the pool for years upon years, same for every other map that is being brought back.
Including something new and fresh with some unique styles could really give those maps some "practice" time during this off season and if they turn out great, they could be starting maps in 2015. What's going to happen when the 2015 pool starts? Are we going to be stuck with 1/2 the current map pool and add another 3 or 4 new maps? Why not try to completely refresh the 2015 map pool?
Yeah, I've never really got feedback either way whenever I post on it, but I would be much happier with a much bigger ladder pool with correspondingly increased ability to veto. Or perhaps unranked has additional maps for experimentation, as people value dem ladder points.
Potential issues would be the same phenomenon I outlined above, namely that people are just too stuck in ladder warrior mode that they'll just veto out the different ones. Secondly, the architecture behind unranked ladder might make Blizz unable to add maps exclusively to that queue, although I doubt it. Thirdly people seem to treat unranked very similarly to ranked so it wouldn't necessarily free people up to experiment more.
On October 02 2014 17:41 LoneYoShi wrote: I'm super eager to know what the map pool will end up being.
As for me, I'm super afraid, but you must be the optimistic guy.
On October 02 2014 17:41 LoneYoShi wrote: Please consider using community-made maps !
... they already did with Catallena, Foxtrot Labs, Deadwing and Nimbus, which weren't that exciting nor balanced -especially Nimbus which is broken as hell, PvT is a nightmare on this map. They should just add solid maps, I don't care if they're community made or not as long as they're reasonably standard good maps.
That looks pretty cool man, hope it gets some traction soon
Wouldn't count on it, ran out of traction long ago.
On October 02 2014 19:48 Big J wrote:
On October 02 2014 19:10 Teoita wrote:
On October 02 2014 18:07 [PkF] Wire wrote: ... they already did with Catallena, Foxtrot Labs, Deadwing and Nimbus,
Along with (counting GSL/Team Crux maps) Cloud Kingdom, Daybreak, Korhal Compound, Metropolis, Ohana, Bel'shir Vestige, Frost, Habitation Station, Heavy Rain, King Sejong Station, Korhal Sky Island, Merry Go Round, Neo Planet S, Overgrowth, Polar Night, Red City, Whirlwind and Yeonsu...roughly one third (7/18) of those coming from TLMC.
Some turned out balanced and others didn't, but overall they have always been far, far better than Blizzard's maps (hello Daedalus Point!)
Well, the reason why blizzard maps aren't that good is that they try things.
so do community mappers, but they don't have a free ticket to the ladder unlike blizz maps.
Yup. That's true. But the community maps that try things also don't get upvoted by the community, unless you just cut every standard map from the contest like in that TLMC. And even then not an innovative map won, but one that was flashy and used scripts.
On October 02 2014 20:07 Meavis wrote:
On October 02 2014 19:48 Big J wrote: They have actually shown us that they are easily capable of producing standard, somewhat balanced maps (Antiga, Akilon, Entombed, Derelicted, Star Station, Heavy Rain, Newkirk...).
all of those maps had issues to some degree, and heavy rain was community made.
Every map has some issues to some degree. I thought that was a blizzard map, given how much shit they got for it.
It just seems very difficult to get people to play on community maps that aren't picked up by WCS, or previously to the current system those maps that were used by GSL/IPL etc.
It's a sucky situation that is hard to resolve. I was perusing the mapmaking section here and saw a lot that looked pretty interesting.
yup. But I think it is partly the communities fault that really good maps do not get a chance, given how little interest there is in mapmaking. (Map of the Month gets decided by what, 100votes; Great maps have what, 10comments?) Basically you need a contest like TLMC or a sponsor like RedBull to even put a spotlight on the mapmaking scene. Then blizzard picks a few of those maps and all the attention goes away again. 1month later people go back on the forums to tell everybody how blizzard doesn't care about community maps, while Gems like http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/sc2-maps/465166-2-expedition-lost have only 12replies, 3 by its own maker.
I'm kind of of the mind of not posting in the map threads because I'm not well-versed in mapmaking (or SC2 in general, for that matter), and am unsure if the mapmaking community would be okay with non-critical praise and non-critical suggestions that might sound absolutely stupid to anyone outside of said community.
On October 03 2014 08:45 Wombat_NI wrote: Yeah, I've never really got feedback either way whenever I post on it, but I would be much happier with a much bigger ladder pool with correspondingly increased ability to veto. Or perhaps unranked has additional maps for experimentation, as people value dem ladder points.
Potential issues would be the same phenomenon I outlined above, namely that people are just too stuck in ladder warrior mode that they'll just veto out the different ones. Secondly, the architecture behind unranked ladder might make Blizz unable to add maps exclusively to that queue, although I doubt it. Thirdly people seem to treat unranked very similarly to ranked so it wouldn't necessarily free people up to experiment more.
It is so easy for Blizzard to add 2 or 3 maps from community to pool and give these new maps a FREE veto. Then release numbers after a month(how much these maps were played) and select different 2 or 3 maps with free veto. The rest can stay there. This way you have bigger map pool for those who want new maps much more often and stable pool for the others.
They just do not want to(or they didn't think about it). I don't think this solution would impact the queue time seriously.
Wait, blizzard will seriously for real have steppes of war on the normal sc2 ladder? :o I am not missing anything here? Steppes of war? On the usual ladder? Soo goes and queues up for a game on the ladder as normal, and he gets to play on steppes of war? How... Why.... I am in disbelief...
How can Blizzard not realise that it is a horrible idea to decide the maps like this?? I'm sure they read the forums enough to know that these people should not be in charge of anything.
Or is this just a big finger to everyone complaining that Blizzard doesn't listen to the community? "Ok, guys, let us show you what happens when we listen to the community. Remember this season before you complain about that again!"
On October 03 2014 16:12 Cascade wrote: Wait, blizzard will seriously for real have steppes of war on the normal sc2 ladder? :o I am not missing anything here? Steppes of war? On the usual ladder? Soo goes and queues up for a game on the ladder as normal, and he gets to play on steppes of war? How... Why.... I am in disbelief...
How can Blizzard not realise that it is a horrible idea to decide the maps like this?? I'm sure they read the forums enough to know that these people should not be in charge of anything.
Or is this just a big finger to everyone complaining that Blizzard doesn't listen to the community? "Ok, guys, let us show you what happens when we listen to the community. Remember this season before you complain about that again!"
What's wrong on Steppes of War? Locusts from your natural can almost reach main of your opponent, this seems like Blizzard's dream, also this map is super bad for blink all ins. Beautiful
I couldn't find the result thread on bnet, so where it is exactly?
On October 03 2014 16:19 deacon.frost wrote: I couldn't find the result thread on bnet, so where it is exactly?
The maps will be announced one at a time over the next few weeks. (Bluepost about it)
Yes, but he was writing about Steppes as it is there for sure so I was expecting some news and, well, nothing .-)
No it's not sure, I just judged from the comments. And the fact that blizzard would even put something like that in the voting pool is sufficiently shocking. :o
edit: Also note how the comments trying to bring reason to the discussion get like 50 downvotes, while "voted steps for the lulz" get +50.
Oh, OK, misunderstanding, Friday and stuff Though I probably host today a match against an Easy AI as a Zerg using Zapp Brannigan special tactic - I will send wave after wave! I have to see how far the locusts make it with & without the creep
On October 03 2014 17:10 deacon.frost wrote: Oh, OK, misunderstanding, Friday and stuff Though I probably host today a match against an Easy AI as a Zerg using Zapp Brannigan special tactic - I will send wave after wave! I have to see how far the locusts make it with & without the creep
"You see, killbots have a preset kill limit. Knowing their weakness, I sent wave after wave of my own men at them until they reached their limit and shut down."
I had a couple of games on steppes of war for a laugh last night and the locusts really are that ridiculous if you can survive long enough to get the hosts out haha.
I think this is a brilliant move from Blizzard. Not for the pro scene, but for the average casual players who slowly have stopped playing the game. This might actually bring more people to the ladder, because the average player just want to have fun when playing this game and that's what will happen with such crazy map pool.
And it might even be beneficial for the pros, so they can start experimenting again and figuring out new ways to play. Seeing the same games over and over again on identical maps is not much fun even for the viewers anyway.
On September 28 2014 05:13 MrCon wrote: I think there is a map missing, it was an ice map on which jinro lost to morrow when he baneling busted him all games. Also the map on which a protoss when full void ray on...I think nada ? and impaled himself and lost during GSL.
He banelimg busted 2/3 games for the 2-1 win. I had a wall with all my raxes, facs depots and bunkers and still lost on crevasse.
I was so mad I punched a hole in the wall.
I know I found the game and the map on TLPD and there was the VOD, couldn't resist and watched it =p
On October 02 2014 17:41 LoneYoShi wrote: I'm super eager to know what the map pool will end up being.
As for me, I'm super afraid, but you must be the optimistic guy.
On October 02 2014 17:41 LoneYoShi wrote: Please consider using community-made maps !
... they already did with Catallena, Foxtrot Labs, Deadwing and Nimbus, which weren't that exciting nor balanced -especially Nimbus which is broken as hell, PvT is a nightmare on this map. They should just add solid maps, I don't care if they're community made or not as long as they're reasonably standard good maps.
That looks pretty cool man, hope it gets some traction soon
Wouldn't count on it, ran out of traction long ago.
On October 02 2014 19:48 Big J wrote:
On October 02 2014 19:10 Teoita wrote:
On October 02 2014 18:07 [PkF] Wire wrote: ... they already did with Catallena, Foxtrot Labs, Deadwing and Nimbus,
Along with (counting GSL/Team Crux maps) Cloud Kingdom, Daybreak, Korhal Compound, Metropolis, Ohana, Bel'shir Vestige, Frost, Habitation Station, Heavy Rain, King Sejong Station, Korhal Sky Island, Merry Go Round, Neo Planet S, Overgrowth, Polar Night, Red City, Whirlwind and Yeonsu...roughly one third (7/18) of those coming from TLMC.
Some turned out balanced and others didn't, but overall they have always been far, far better than Blizzard's maps (hello Daedalus Point!)
Well, the reason why blizzard maps aren't that good is that they try things.
so do community mappers, but they don't have a free ticket to the ladder unlike blizz maps.
Yup. That's true. But the community maps that try things also don't get upvoted by the community, unless you just cut every standard map from the contest like in that TLMC. And even then not an innovative map won, but one that was flashy and used scripts.
On October 02 2014 20:07 Meavis wrote:
On October 02 2014 19:48 Big J wrote: They have actually shown us that they are easily capable of producing standard, somewhat balanced maps (Antiga, Akilon, Entombed, Derelicted, Star Station, Heavy Rain, Newkirk...).
all of those maps had issues to some degree, and heavy rain was community made.
Every map has some issues to some degree. I thought that was a blizzard map, given how much shit they got for it.
It just seems very difficult to get people to play on community maps that aren't picked up by WCS, or previously to the current system those maps that were used by GSL/IPL etc.
It's a sucky situation that is hard to resolve. I was perusing the mapmaking section here and saw a lot that looked pretty interesting.
yup. But I think it is partly the communities fault that really good maps do not get a chance, given how little interest there is in mapmaking. (Map of the Month gets decided by what, 100votes; Great maps have what, 10comments?) Basically you need a contest like TLMC or a sponsor like RedBull to even put a spotlight on the mapmaking scene. Then blizzard picks a few of those maps and all the attention goes away again. 1month later people go back on the forums to tell everybody how blizzard doesn't care about community maps, while Gems like http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/sc2-maps/465166-2-expedition-lost have only 12replies, 3 by its own maker.
I feel fucking terrible for mapmakers when reading these threads. You're entirely correct about the community.
Was running a LAN at home and people's reticence to play on anything other than the current set of ladder maps. What chance do mapmakers have to get people playing their maps when local Irish LANs with an average league of Diamond, with a lot of them not even countenancing us having our own handpicked map pool?
I'm not even talking wacky shit, people were vociferously arguing against even the potential inclusion of Cloud Kingdom, which is one of the most-played maps of all SC2
I know TotalBiscuit's clan wars experimented a bit with having pros trying out interesting maps, what else would be possible? I think a good start would be trying to get showmatches, especially those with community chipping in financially, to use as many of the maps from the mapmaking community as possible.
It's hardly revolutionary and has been done before, I just don't know how you get such a trend going without some of the bigger community figures leading it.
I know as a viewer, unless I'm really a fan of one or both of the players that showmatches largely don't hold my interest like they used to, especially with so many tournaments to choose from/ less time to view SC. However a Bo9 showmatch on maps I haven't seen, fuck yeah!
Hm, way back in BW days, we used to have a op TL (the semi-official TL bnet channel) friday night tour, where the map selection was pretty free.
I made the finals against one of my friends once and we played all 5 games on just maps he had made (he was a really really good mapmaker, he made some maps that were picked for Blizzcon --- his ID was Travin if people remember).
Anyway, maybe a community tournament like that might be fun. I'm not sure I have the time (partly because of timezone) to host something like this, but I've been thinking it'd be a fun thign to do lately.
On October 03 2014 16:12 Cascade wrote: Wait, blizzard will seriously for real have steppes of war on the normal sc2 ladder? :o I am not missing anything here? Steppes of war? On the usual ladder? Soo goes and queues up for a game on the ladder as normal, and he gets to play on steppes of war? How... Why.... I am in disbelief...
How can Blizzard not realise that it is a horrible idea to decide the maps like this?? I'm sure they read the forums enough to know that these people should not be in charge of anything.
Or is this just a big finger to everyone complaining that Blizzard doesn't listen to the community? "Ok, guys, let us show you what happens when we listen to the community. Remember this season before you complain about that again!"
What's wrong on Steppes of War? Locusts from your natural can almost reach main of your opponent, this seems like Blizzard's dream, also this map is super bad for blink all ins. Beautiful
I couldn't find the result thread on bnet, so where it is exactly?
Let's be serious. Anyone with a serious/competitive interest in SC2 will veto Steppes of War either immediately or very soon after playing a couple of joke games on it...
Why ? 6pool can't be stopped by a P on this map but if you don't... triple pylon wall will be back. Oh well. Nydus will get usefull
"the best jokes are the shortest" is a french saying, I don't know if it exists in english. I feel like this saying will hold true with blizzard's map pool idea. In a couple weeks playing on Steppes of War won't be fun anymore.
On October 03 2014 16:12 Cascade wrote: Wait, blizzard will seriously for real have steppes of war on the normal sc2 ladder? :o I am not missing anything here? Steppes of war? On the usual ladder? Soo goes and queues up for a game on the ladder as normal, and he gets to play on steppes of war? How... Why.... I am in disbelief...
How can Blizzard not realise that it is a horrible idea to decide the maps like this?? I'm sure they read the forums enough to know that these people should not be in charge of anything.
Or is this just a big finger to everyone complaining that Blizzard doesn't listen to the community? "Ok, guys, let us show you what happens when we listen to the community. Remember this season before you complain about that again!"
What's wrong on Steppes of War? Locusts from your natural can almost reach main of your opponent, this seems like Blizzard's dream, also this map is super bad for blink all ins. Beautiful
I couldn't find the result thread on bnet, so where it is exactly?
Let's be serious. Anyone with a serious/competitive interest in SC2 will veto Steppes of War either immediately or very soon after playing a couple of joke games on it...
Why ? 6pool can't be stopped by a P on this map but if you don't... triple pylon wall will be back. Oh well. Nydus will get usefull
Pylon scout --> 11 forge and pylon wall against 6 pool
EPT
