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On September 30 2014 20:40 KeksX wrote:Show nested quote +On September 29 2014 02:29 starslayer wrote:On September 29 2014 01:22 Swift118 wrote:
Will be fun to play on Xelnaga Caverns and Metalopolis for a bit I suppose. Daybreak will be a good thing, map just seems like a solid addition to any map pool. Then again I am only Diamond and thus there are bigger holes in my game than worrying too much about maps (probably just like the majority of ragers in this thread, but they won't admit it).
I do wonder what pro players think about this map pool change. Balance is on a razor wire in their play and well money and reputation is on the line and I think it's fair to say some of these maps have glaring balance issues. i keep wondering about pros as well, this is there job and having to play on these crazy maps for a couple month might screw some people. yea you can stay in "shape' by playing on these maps but when the new maps come out for 2015, Idk i just feel it will mess a lot of players ups. If anything it helps them. Dealing with bad/weird maps is good practice. Just look at BW, there were a lot of different kind of maps.
please stop drawing this comparison, you don't see anyone draw comparison to other RTS maps either.
facing blink all-in/swarmhost or other abusive builds every game again per map is not going to help anyone.
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On September 28 2014 21:20 nvrs wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2014 18:15 Wombat_NI wrote:On September 28 2014 17:09 nvrs wrote:On September 28 2014 16:10 Wombat_NI wrote:
I'm entitled to my opinion that it's idiotic to enable anyone with a Bnet account to dictate a map pool that everyone uses.
If you've stopped playing because you like rush/cheese games, how long will you come back for once Steppes is back out of rotation? If you're nostalgic for Metalopolis, go play a custom on it. Me and friends had a 4 man for fun tournament on old maps, had a good time.
Nothing against the casuals who don't play ladder anymore, but giving those people votes equivalent to people (not me obv) who use it to practice competitively? Not to mention the self-confessed people who vote for the worst possible pool because they see it as funny? I beg to differ, unless SC2 ladder is only about pro play that is and since there is not a chance Blizzard thinks that's the case, they act accordingly. The pros should be the ones that practice on custom maps, or they could have a different ladder. In almost every game I can think of the automated ranked matchmaking is where the competitive-minded play, and customs are for fun fucking around or specific practicing. Your goal may not be pro play, maybe you want to finally push into Masters or finally get out of bronze. Also Blizzard clearly set up WCS with ladder in their thinking, given the map pools are very similar, IMO so that amateur players could practice on ladder and still be familiar with the maps for WCS qualifiers etc. Got any numbers on that claim? How many games on ladder are actually between high Masters / grand Masters players? Still though, the point of the matter is that Blizzard is trying to get more people to play ladder again, after all SC2 ladder activity is nowhere near what it used to be the first couple of years although HOTS was launched just 1.5 years ago. Coming up with a set of "balanced" - well thought out maps that play well with the current meta has not really worked out for them (they have been doing that for many seasons now), one shouldn't blame them for trying something completely different.
This is a strange thinking "the game is not doing well so may be instead of well thought/balanced maps we should use old maps that are proven to be imbalanced and bad, and see what happens". Like the maps are responsible for sc2 being less popular, when tons of things have been pointed out since the release of this game, mainly related to features lacking in bnet 2.0 (or as lots of people call it, bnet 0.2).
The maps are part of the balance, there is no point in playing again on old maps like if something really new would come up, a miracle... Its my opinion that almost all ladder players, being bronze or master, are taking the game, the ladder, seriously. I can understand that to some the game may seem not enough fun but I think this is only the effect of stress, focus, even work needed and inherent to competitive games, even more to 1v1.
What fun will come from relaying on a single force field to survive early agression, from blink allins all games in tvp, from not being able to secure a natural ? The fun will last 1 day, the time needed to remember why those maps were ruled out. The people who left sc2 will remember why they did, and the people who still plays sc2 and likes it, they will once again be wondering about blizzard random ^$@! ideas.
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On September 30 2014 20:42 Meavis wrote:Show nested quote +On September 30 2014 20:40 KeksX wrote:On September 29 2014 02:29 starslayer wrote:On September 29 2014 01:22 Swift118 wrote:
Will be fun to play on Xelnaga Caverns and Metalopolis for a bit I suppose. Daybreak will be a good thing, map just seems like a solid addition to any map pool. Then again I am only Diamond and thus there are bigger holes in my game than worrying too much about maps (probably just like the majority of ragers in this thread, but they won't admit it).
I do wonder what pro players think about this map pool change. Balance is on a razor wire in their play and well money and reputation is on the line and I think it's fair to say some of these maps have glaring balance issues. i keep wondering about pros as well, this is there job and having to play on these crazy maps for a couple month might screw some people. yea you can stay in "shape' by playing on these maps but when the new maps come out for 2015, Idk i just feel it will mess a lot of players ups. If anything it helps them. Dealing with bad/weird maps is good practice. Just look at BW, there were a lot of different kind of maps. please stop drawing this comparison, you don't see anyone draw comparison to other RTS maps either. facing blink all-in/swarmhost or other abusive builds every game again per map is not going to help anyone.
You say that like it doesn't happen atm.
Also what is so bad about the comparison? I think we should take a page or two out of BW maps and how people handled maps in general.
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On September 30 2014 21:06 KeksX wrote:Show nested quote +On September 30 2014 20:42 Meavis wrote:On September 30 2014 20:40 KeksX wrote:On September 29 2014 02:29 starslayer wrote:On September 29 2014 01:22 Swift118 wrote:
Will be fun to play on Xelnaga Caverns and Metalopolis for a bit I suppose. Daybreak will be a good thing, map just seems like a solid addition to any map pool. Then again I am only Diamond and thus there are bigger holes in my game than worrying too much about maps (probably just like the majority of ragers in this thread, but they won't admit it).
I do wonder what pro players think about this map pool change. Balance is on a razor wire in their play and well money and reputation is on the line and I think it's fair to say some of these maps have glaring balance issues. i keep wondering about pros as well, this is there job and having to play on these crazy maps for a couple month might screw some people. yea you can stay in "shape' by playing on these maps but when the new maps come out for 2015, Idk i just feel it will mess a lot of players ups. If anything it helps them. Dealing with bad/weird maps is good practice. Just look at BW, there were a lot of different kind of maps. please stop drawing this comparison, you don't see anyone draw comparison to other RTS maps either. facing blink all-in/swarmhost or other abusive builds every game again per map is not going to help anyone. You say that like it doesn't happen atm. Also what is so bad about the comparison? I think we should take a page or two out of BW maps and how people handled maps in general.
like what doesn't happen? drawing comparison to other RTS maps? don't think I saw anyone do that yet.
you can't treat maps in the same way, see: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/starcraft-2/460766-star-hangshow-balance-in-sc2?page=6#116
On September 30 2014 21:14 SatedSC2 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 30 2014 16:05 Meavis wrote:
there are no maps you can vote for that don't have balance issues, save for whirlwind and planet s in which case it's still questionable, as planet s has very short rush distance and whirlwind is extremely open. Be'shir Vestige is pretty balanced.
On September 30 2014 17:44 Meavis wrote:
bel'shir has circle syndrome on top of a limited economy situation.
the map is fine until you want to take a 4th, just look at how many base trades were on this map compared to others.
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On September 30 2014 21:27 Meavis wrote:Show nested quote +On September 30 2014 21:06 KeksX wrote:On September 30 2014 20:42 Meavis wrote:On September 30 2014 20:40 KeksX wrote:On September 29 2014 02:29 starslayer wrote:On September 29 2014 01:22 Swift118 wrote:
Will be fun to play on Xelnaga Caverns and Metalopolis for a bit I suppose. Daybreak will be a good thing, map just seems like a solid addition to any map pool. Then again I am only Diamond and thus there are bigger holes in my game than worrying too much about maps (probably just like the majority of ragers in this thread, but they won't admit it).
I do wonder what pro players think about this map pool change. Balance is on a razor wire in their play and well money and reputation is on the line and I think it's fair to say some of these maps have glaring balance issues. i keep wondering about pros as well, this is there job and having to play on these crazy maps for a couple month might screw some people. yea you can stay in "shape' by playing on these maps but when the new maps come out for 2015, Idk i just feel it will mess a lot of players ups. If anything it helps them. Dealing with bad/weird maps is good practice. Just look at BW, there were a lot of different kind of maps. please stop drawing this comparison, you don't see anyone draw comparison to other RTS maps either. facing blink all-in/swarmhost or other abusive builds every game again per map is not going to help anyone. You say that like it doesn't happen atm. Also what is so bad about the comparison? I think we should take a page or two out of BW maps and how people handled maps in general. like what doesn't happen? drawing comparison to other RTS maps? don't think I saw anyone do that yet. you can't treat maps in the same way, see: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/starcraft-2/460766-star-hangshow-balance-in-sc2?page=6#116others.
No, I meant you say it like we don't see SH games and abusive builds with the so-called "standard maps" we have right now.
Also while I think the post you linked uses some good arguments, I'd think that it's pretty tough to make such a claim without even trying to change things.
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On September 30 2014 21:39 KeksX wrote:Show nested quote +On September 30 2014 21:27 Meavis wrote:On September 30 2014 21:06 KeksX wrote:On September 30 2014 20:42 Meavis wrote:On September 30 2014 20:40 KeksX wrote:On September 29 2014 02:29 starslayer wrote:On September 29 2014 01:22 Swift118 wrote:
Will be fun to play on Xelnaga Caverns and Metalopolis for a bit I suppose. Daybreak will be a good thing, map just seems like a solid addition to any map pool. Then again I am only Diamond and thus there are bigger holes in my game than worrying too much about maps (probably just like the majority of ragers in this thread, but they won't admit it).
I do wonder what pro players think about this map pool change. Balance is on a razor wire in their play and well money and reputation is on the line and I think it's fair to say some of these maps have glaring balance issues. i keep wondering about pros as well, this is there job and having to play on these crazy maps for a couple month might screw some people. yea you can stay in "shape' by playing on these maps but when the new maps come out for 2015, Idk i just feel it will mess a lot of players ups. If anything it helps them. Dealing with bad/weird maps is good practice. Just look at BW, there were a lot of different kind of maps. please stop drawing this comparison, you don't see anyone draw comparison to other RTS maps either. facing blink all-in/swarmhost or other abusive builds every game again per map is not going to help anyone. You say that like it doesn't happen atm. Also what is so bad about the comparison? I think we should take a page or two out of BW maps and how people handled maps in general. like what doesn't happen? drawing comparison to other RTS maps? don't think I saw anyone do that yet. you can't treat maps in the same way, see: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/starcraft-2/460766-star-hangshow-balance-in-sc2?page=6#116others. No, I meant you say it like we don't see SH games and abusive builds with the so-called "standard maps" we have right now. Also while I think the post you linked uses some good arguments, I'd think that it's pretty tough to make such a claim without even trying to change things.
I see your point now, and yes there are some issues with current maps but they're hardly "standard maps" as you say.
On September 30 2014 21:42 SatedSC2 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 30 2014 21:27 Meavis wrote:On September 30 2014 21:14 SatedSC2 wrote:On September 30 2014 16:05 Meavis wrote:
there are no maps you can vote for that don't have balance issues, save for whirlwind and planet s in which case it's still questionable, as planet s has very short rush distance and whirlwind is extremely open. Be'shir Vestige is pretty balanced. On September 30 2014 17:44 Meavis wrote:
bel'shir has circle syndrome on top of a limited economy situation. the map is fine until you want to take a 4th, just look at how many base trades were on this map compared to others. I just looked up what "circle syndrome" is. It seems like it's just something that someone came up with to justify why they don't like the design of certain maps. That's all well and good but, from what I can tell, there is no reason why a map with this so-called "circle syndrome" cannot be balanced. If you don't like base-trades then that's fine and disliking a map for that reason is perfectly valid (I'm not trying to say that this so-called "circle syndome" isn't a reason to dislike a map), but it has absolutely nothing to do with balance. Fortunately I don't need to rely on made-up concepts to justify my opinion because I can instead rely on stats to decide whether or not something is balanced (since balance is what we're talking about here). Bel'shir Vestige is a very balanced map: Crux Bel'Shir Vestige SE
your ignorance is showing, you've said quite some stuff before but this has to be one of the funniest things yet, there goes deep research in map design, and circle syndrome has proven to be a valid point in mapmaking, a map with circle syndrome doesn't necessarily have to be imbalanced, but often is so, as it heavily favors specific situations and creates many situations, such as basetrades, or where 1 race can and the other can't expand.
you can cling to your holy numbers, but numbers hardly speak for what is balanced (especially in a map with the criteria of bel'shir vestige), there are various examples of this.
for instance during WoL prior to BL/infestor, zergs would either lose or win by basetrading with mutaling.
or during the BL/infestor era where protoss would either win with the soultrain/pre hive colossus timing or a lucky vortex.
and the meta since forever in TvP, where terran either has to do game ending damage or lose an impossible lategame unless you pull of inhuman micro.
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I wanted entombed vally btw 
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I am pretty sure the reason they're doing this when they're doing it is WCS will be over. pros can still practice in custom maps easily but since this final season of the year on ladder doesn't have an analogue with WCS there's no reason not to have a little fun with it.
I don't really think they expect it to bring back loads of people. It may get some folks to jump on ladder for the novelty though.
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On September 30 2014 23:53 SatedSC2 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 30 2014 22:17 Meavis wrote:
your ignorance is showing, you've said quite some stuff before but this has to be one of the funniest things yet, there goes deep research in map design, and circle syndrome has proven to be a valid point in mapmaking, a map with circle syndrome doesn't necessarily have to be imbalanced, but often is so, as it heavily favors specific situations and creates many situations, such as basetrades, or where 1 race can and the other can't expand.
you can cling to your holy numbers, but numbers hardly speak for what is balanced (especially in a map with the criteria of bel'shir vestige), there are various examples of this.
for instance during WoL prior to BL/infestor, zergs would either lose or win by basetrading with mutaling.
or during the BL/infestor era where protoss would either win with the soultrain/pre hive colossus timing or a lucky vortex.
and the meta since forever in TvP, where terran either has to do game ending damage or lose an impossible lategame unless you pull of inhuman micro. So are you going to point out why "circle-syndrome" actually makes Bel'shir Vestige imbalanced or are you going to keep calling on non-specific examples that have nothing to do with what we're talking about? I think I'll stick to my "holy numbers" until you're able to do that. Kudos for bringing up BL/Infestor as if BL/Infestor was even slightly map-dependent. EDIT: Show nested quote +and the meta since forever in TvP, where terran either has to do game ending damage or lose an impossible lategame unless you pull of inhuman micro. Never mind, you don't actually have a clue what you're talking about...
circle syndrome makes the map play out in an extremely different way post 3 bases, favoring high mobility and quick damage which often forces these base trade scenario's, while a match-up may look balanced on this map in general, it favors one race earlier on while the other attains an advantage through base trade scenarios, skewing with statistics.
you completely missed the point on the BL/infestor argument, it had nothing to do with maps, these examples all pointed out cases in the past where statistics were 50% or close to, but the conditions under which it was balanced were questionable.
Also, thank you most biased protoss on TL for informing why I don't have a clue about the TvP match-up.
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1 more day of voting. I hope they release the results ASAP.
Metalopolis and Antiga plz
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Northern Ireland25506 Posts
I still don't understand 'circle syndrome'
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When Blizzard realizes that they fucked up and need to take concepts and ideas from SC1 (IE amount of maps that one can pick/use such as PGTour/ICCup days).
Having a wide variety of maps that can be used will only benchmark the state of balance to help refine and make any balance issues aware to the community, developers and game itself.
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On October 01 2014 00:05 Meavis wrote:
Also, thank you most biased protoss on TL for informing why I don't have a clue about the TvP match-up.
Not so fast... I thought I was the most biased Protoss on TL... 
I really hope the trolls don't win. Last thing I need is to be forced to 10 gate every game just to avoid death by Reaper on Steppes.
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"Post 3-base situations"...
When Steppes was in the pool, there were rarely post 2-base situations. The game has evolved. It will be interesting to see what changes can occur in play when forced to use maps that were not intended to have "safe three base" play.
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your Country52797 Posts
On October 01 2014 07:58 felisconcolori wrote:
"Post 3-base situations"...
When Steppes was in the pool, there were rarely post 2-base situations. The game has evolved. It will be interesting to see what changes can occur in play when forced to use maps that were not intended to have "safe three base" play.
All my games on steppes went past 2 bases, I just assumed that if neither player cheesed then there would be a long game o.o
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Needs Scrap Station, Jungle Basin, and Blistering Sands.
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EPT
