As if Blizzard is the only company that's capable of making a good RTS?
Companies aren't afraid that they won't be able to top SC2, companies just don't see a lot of ROI in making an RTS compared to making games for other game genres.
On September 08 2014 15:51 Incognoto wrote: As if Blizzard is the only company that's capable of making a good RTS?
Companies aren't afraid that they won't be able to top SC2, companies just don't see a lot of ROI in making an RTS compared to making games for other game genres.
Yeah games like Candy Crush is easy and cheap to make. A ten thousand dollar app could potentially make millions quite easily.
SC2 probably cost Blizzard millions to develop.
edit: It would be interesting if a new Age of Empires or Red Alert tried to become competitive. Perhaps Warhammer would be a good competitor.
Games Workshop needs it. I think they are hurting. There was one in the mall for nearly two decades, and just recently closed up. A Warhammer RTS modelled to become an esport would be what GW needs to survive.
I am not sure if this is a good thing. I felt that the Koreans participating in EU and NA were increasing the skill level of the foreigners and they give better more exciting games. I don't mind that Koreans dominate the EU or NA scene. I wan to see the best StarCraft being played in each region.
without Koreans the lvl of play will drop in EU and NA. and spectating will be less awesome. and people can lose interest in the game. this should be monitored and handled with care by blizzard.
I understand that Koreans can still compete in the region if they live there but I am not sure if they will move and reside in another country.
On September 08 2014 16:31 Duprix wrote: I am not sure if this is a good thing. I felt that the Koreans participating in EU and NA were increasing the skill level of the foreigners and they give better more exciting games. I don't mind that Koreans dominate the EU or NA scene. I wan to see the best StarCraft being played in each region.
without Koreans the lvl of play will drop in EU and NA. and spectating will be less awesome. and people can lose interest in the game. this should be monitored and handled with care by blizzard.
I understand that Koreans can still compete in the region if they live there but I am not sure if they will move and reside in another country.
time will tell I guess.
Can't quite agree with the point of viewership. I think many people will watch because it's locked and they can cheer for their country's players again. It's ok in the EU region, because except for San, every Round of 16 player so far lives in Europe and there are only 9 or 10 Koreans in the Premier League overall. I think the problem is NA. There are always 12 - 14 Koreans in the Top 16 and that's bad for everyone involved (except the Koreans that make easy money there). If they want to participate in the NA Region, do it like Polt and viOLet. Maybe the scene will flourish because NA clans will make the decision to open a few team houses and invite Koreans.
- The high figures of the season finals indicates that people due enjoy watching koreans battle it out for high stakes.
- The season finals were generally the most popular events, concluding with the Global Finals.
(Thanks to AWalker9) This could mean the season finals have to come back (surprisingly). Maybe the combination region lock with season finals will work? Edit: This will also make sure the top players (KeSPA Koreans) get some extra WCS points (no points for just qualifying for the tournament, only later stages).
The best viewership we had for WCS outside the the Global Finals was: WCS EU S1 2013 Day 2
2013
WCS EU S1 Finals Finals Day 1 had an average of: 55060 Finals Day 2 had an average of 80461 (Stephano vs Mvp in the final)
WCS KR (GSL) S1 Finals Had an average: 39738 (Soulkey vs INnoVation in the final)
WCS AM S1 Finals Finals Day 1 had an average of: 35468 Finals Day 2 had an average of: 43999 (HerO vs Revival in the final)
Season 1 Finals (In Korea) Finals Day 1 had an average of: 19190 Finals Day 2 had an average of: 26321 Finals Day had an average of: 33648 (sOs vs INnoVation in the final)
WCS KR S2 (OSL) Finals Had an average of: 18880 (Rain vs Maru in the final)
WCS EU S2 Finals Finals Day 1 had an average of: 45574 Finals Day 2 had an average of: 49893 (MC vs duckdeok in the final)
WCS AM S2 Finals Finals Day 1 had an average of: 35711 Finals Day 2 had an average of: 43682 (Jaedong vs Polt in the final)
Season 2 Finals (EU) Finals Day 1 had an average of: 57452 Finals Day 2 had an average of: 65112 Finals Day 3 had an average of: 72782 (Jaedong vs Bomber in the final)
WCS EU S3 Finals Finals Day 1 had an average of: 35065 Finals Day 2 had an average of: 42943 (MMA vs MC in the final)
WCS KR S3 (GSL) Finals Finals had an average of: 27264 (Dear vs soO in the final)
WCS AM S3 Finals Finals Day 1 had an average of: 28625 Finals Day 2 had an average of: 29800 (Polt vs ByuL in the final)
Season 3 Finals (AM) Finals Day 1 had an average of: 39666 Finals Day 2 had an average of: 45478 Finals Day 3 had an average of: 64584 (Dear vs Soulkey in the final)
Global Finals Finals Day 1 had an average of: 92404 Finals Day 2 had an average of: 88648 (Jaedong vs sOs in the final)
2014 So Far...
GSL S1: Finals had an average of: 20873 (Zest vs soO in the final)
WCS EU S1 Finals* Finals Day 1 had an average of: 24968 Finals Day 2 had an average of: 25755 Finals Day 3 had an average of: 30300 Finals Day 4 had an average of: 44113 (MMA vs MC in the final)
WCS AM S1 Finals* Finals Day 1 had an average of: 31918 Finals Day 2 had an average of: 30075 Finals Day 3 had an average of: 30998 Finals Day 4 had an average of: 35337 (HyuN vs Oz in the final)
*NOTE: Due to NASL folding ESL picked up WCS AM and due to short timing both WCS EU and AM finals were on the same day and split which is why it is different to all the other finals.
GSL S2 Finals had an average of: 17643 (Classic vs soO in the final)
WCS EU S2 Finals Finals Day 1 had an average of: 28643 Finals Day 2 had an average of: 38129 (StarDust vs San in the final)
WCS AM S2 Finals Finals Day 1 had an average of: 24150 Finals Day 2 had an average of: 31974 (Bomber vs Pigbaby in the final)
Observations
- It is clear when looking at this that WCS EU has been consistently the most popular outside of the Season Finals with Stephano vs Mvp in S1 2013 a highlight throughout all of WCS.
- GSL consistently struggles due to the time of day in which it takes place as AM are sleeping and EU are working or have school. Also none of the finals since Soulkey vs INnoVation have had the same level of hype with that series regarded as one of the best of the year simply because of the comeback.
- WCS AM has pretty consistent throughout.
- The high figures of the season finals indicates that people due enjoy watching koreans battle it out for high stakes.
- The season finals were generally the most popular events, concluding with the Global Finals.
- The hype generated by the Stephano vs Mvp series have gone unmatched and by looking at the figures it suggests as said time and again foreigner vs Korean finals have the most hype.
- Viewership for WCS is down this year especially compared with the early seasons last year.
All I've gotten from this is that Season Finals were awesome and that EU has declined quite a bit over the last 2 years. Regional finals look somewhat stable.
I think part of the problem with EU is that the guys play each other week in week out in GO4SC2, IEM qualifiers etc... So a RO8 match like Snute vs MMA is less hyped and significant as they play each other on a regular basis.
On September 08 2014 15:51 Incognoto wrote: As if Blizzard is the only company that's capable of making a good RTS?
Companies aren't afraid that they won't be able to top SC2, companies just don't see a lot of ROI in making an RTS compared to making games for other game genres.
Yeah games like Candy Crush is easy and cheap to make. A ten thousand dollar app could potentially make millions quite easily.
SC2 probably cost Blizzard millions to develop.
edit: It would be interesting if a new Age of Empires or Red Alert tried to become competitive. Perhaps Warhammer would be a good competitor.
Games Workshop needs it. I think they are hurting. There was one in the mall for nearly two decades, and just recently closed up. A Warhammer RTS modelled to become an esport would be what GW needs to survive.
Correct me if I'm wrong here, but from what I've heard GW is close to flatlining? Doesn't seem like there is much room for investment in a long term project like a major PC title under those conditions?
I used to be pretty involved in AOE2 a long time ago, I was expert level way back when the game was still kind of fresh. It's fairly balanced, among the the higher tier civs at least. Thing is, that has more to do with the fact that the civs are basically all the same, with minor variations. It's also complete ass to watch if you aren't already quite knowledgeable, way more than SC2 or even BW.
As for RA, eh, I dunno. I really don't think EA has any interest in pouring as much money into a niche market as Blizz has done with Sc2. Developers don't make RTS games because RTS games don't sell. They're too hard, ask too much from the player, and punish even small mistakes too harshly. I play with a group of five people who all enjoy the competitive play found in Dota, but they tear their hair out when trying to play Sc2.
The best viewership we had for WCS outside the the Global Finals was: WCS EU S1 2013 Day 2
2013
WCS EU S1 Finals Finals Day 1 had an average of: 55060 Finals Day 2 had an average of 80461 (Stephano vs Mvp in the final)
WCS KR (GSL) S1 Finals Had an average: 39738 (Soulkey vs INnoVation in the final)
WCS AM S1 Finals Finals Day 1 had an average of: 35468 Finals Day 2 had an average of: 43999 (HerO vs Revival in the final)
Season 1 Finals (In Korea) Finals Day 1 had an average of: 19190 Finals Day 2 had an average of: 26321 Finals Day had an average of: 33648 (sOs vs INnoVation in the final)
WCS KR S2 (OSL) Finals Had an average of: 18880 (Rain vs Maru in the final)
WCS EU S2 Finals Finals Day 1 had an average of: 45574 Finals Day 2 had an average of: 49893 (MC vs duckdeok in the final)
WCS AM S2 Finals Finals Day 1 had an average of: 35711 Finals Day 2 had an average of: 43682 (Jaedong vs Polt in the final)
Season 2 Finals (EU) Finals Day 1 had an average of: 57452 Finals Day 2 had an average of: 65112 Finals Day 3 had an average of: 72782 (Jaedong vs Bomber in the final)
WCS EU S3 Finals Finals Day 1 had an average of: 35065 Finals Day 2 had an average of: 42943 (MMA vs MC in the final)
WCS KR S3 (GSL) Finals Finals had an average of: 27264 (Dear vs soO in the final)
WCS AM S3 Finals Finals Day 1 had an average of: 28625 Finals Day 2 had an average of: 29800 (Polt vs ByuL in the final)
Season 3 Finals (AM) Finals Day 1 had an average of: 39666 Finals Day 2 had an average of: 45478 Finals Day 3 had an average of: 64584 (Dear vs Soulkey in the final)
Global Finals Finals Day 1 had an average of: 92404 Finals Day 2 had an average of: 88648 (Jaedong vs sOs in the final)
2014 So Far...
GSL S1: Finals had an average of: 20873 (Zest vs soO in the final)
WCS EU S1 Finals* Finals Day 1 had an average of: 24968 Finals Day 2 had an average of: 25755 Finals Day 3 had an average of: 30300 Finals Day 4 had an average of: 44113 (MMA vs MC in the final)
WCS AM S1 Finals* Finals Day 1 had an average of: 31918 Finals Day 2 had an average of: 30075 Finals Day 3 had an average of: 30998 Finals Day 4 had an average of: 35337 (HyuN vs Oz in the final)
*NOTE: Due to NASL folding ESL picked up WCS AM and due to short timing both WCS EU and AM finals were on the same day and split which is why it is different to all the other finals.
GSL S2 Finals had an average of: 17643 (Classic vs soO in the final)
WCS EU S2 Finals Finals Day 1 had an average of: 28643 Finals Day 2 had an average of: 38129 (StarDust vs San in the final)
WCS AM S2 Finals Finals Day 1 had an average of: 24150 Finals Day 2 had an average of: 31974 (Bomber vs Pigbaby in the final)
Observations
- It is clear when looking at this that WCS EU has been consistently the most popular outside of the Season Finals with Stephano vs Mvp in S1 2013 a highlight throughout all of WCS.
- GSL consistently struggles due to the time of day in which it takes place as AM are sleeping and EU are working or have school. Also none of the finals since Soulkey vs INnoVation have had the same level of hype with that series regarded as one of the best of the year simply because of the comeback.
- WCS AM has pretty consistent throughout.
- The high figures of the season finals indicates that people due enjoy watching koreans battle it out for high stakes.
- The season finals were generally the most popular events, concluding with the Global Finals.
- The hype generated by the Stephano vs Mvp series have gone unmatched and by looking at the figures it suggests as said time and again foreigner vs Korean finals have the most hype.
- Viewership for WCS is down this year especially compared with the early seasons last year.
All I've gotten from this is that Season Finals were awesome and that EU has declined quite a bit over the last 2 years. Regional finals look somewhat stable.
I think part of the problem with EU is that the guys play each other week in week out in GO4SC2, IEM qualifiers etc... So a RO8 match like Snute vs MMA is less hyped and significant as they play each other on a regular basis.
The problem for me is that the WCS events get less and less special every season. In Europe we had two new (-ly renovated) studios, we had player interviews after the online games, teaser before the game, hype videos, the Hübner, huge player posters behind each players, WCS Extra after every day. Some of those things were hit and miss but it was the effort that counted. There was the feeling that this was going to be big.
We have most of the stuff cut down or cut away entirely. The audience is very small, even now that admission is free. You get the in "7 hours until WCS XY starts" and "WCS Results Thread [Ro512]" threads on Reddit, that's it. I wouldn't know what would be on TL if Lorning wasn't around. I didn't even know when the EU regional finals were until the same weekend where they started.
Granted, the studio production runs very smoothly and professionally. But the games are there and not it Paris, Warsaw, Hamburg, Valencia, Stockholm to keep the cost down. Some people in the scene spoke out against the season finals which was good in my opinion, but they didn't buff the regional finals whatsoever. The difference of the first seasons and the later seasons is that WCS isn't ambitious. The feeling is that it is to keep SC2 alive, but not the HYPEHYPEHYPE fuckyeah SC2 everyone wanted Blizzard to go for.
This problem is much bigger than region restrictions or not.
The best viewership we had for WCS outside the the Global Finals was: WCS EU S1 2013 Day 2
2013
WCS EU S1 Finals Finals Day 1 had an average of: 55060 Finals Day 2 had an average of 80461 (Stephano vs Mvp in the final)
WCS KR (GSL) S1 Finals Had an average: 39738 (Soulkey vs INnoVation in the final)
WCS AM S1 Finals Finals Day 1 had an average of: 35468 Finals Day 2 had an average of: 43999 (HerO vs Revival in the final)
Season 1 Finals (In Korea) Finals Day 1 had an average of: 19190 Finals Day 2 had an average of: 26321 Finals Day had an average of: 33648 (sOs vs INnoVation in the final)
WCS KR S2 (OSL) Finals Had an average of: 18880 (Rain vs Maru in the final)
WCS EU S2 Finals Finals Day 1 had an average of: 45574 Finals Day 2 had an average of: 49893 (MC vs duckdeok in the final)
WCS AM S2 Finals Finals Day 1 had an average of: 35711 Finals Day 2 had an average of: 43682 (Jaedong vs Polt in the final)
Season 2 Finals (EU) Finals Day 1 had an average of: 57452 Finals Day 2 had an average of: 65112 Finals Day 3 had an average of: 72782 (Jaedong vs Bomber in the final)
WCS EU S3 Finals Finals Day 1 had an average of: 35065 Finals Day 2 had an average of: 42943 (MMA vs MC in the final)
WCS KR S3 (GSL) Finals Finals had an average of: 27264 (Dear vs soO in the final)
WCS AM S3 Finals Finals Day 1 had an average of: 28625 Finals Day 2 had an average of: 29800 (Polt vs ByuL in the final)
Season 3 Finals (AM) Finals Day 1 had an average of: 39666 Finals Day 2 had an average of: 45478 Finals Day 3 had an average of: 64584 (Dear vs Soulkey in the final)
Global Finals Finals Day 1 had an average of: 92404 Finals Day 2 had an average of: 88648 (Jaedong vs sOs in the final)
2014 So Far...
GSL S1: Finals had an average of: 20873 (Zest vs soO in the final)
WCS EU S1 Finals* Finals Day 1 had an average of: 24968 Finals Day 2 had an average of: 25755 Finals Day 3 had an average of: 30300 Finals Day 4 had an average of: 44113 (MMA vs MC in the final)
WCS AM S1 Finals* Finals Day 1 had an average of: 31918 Finals Day 2 had an average of: 30075 Finals Day 3 had an average of: 30998 Finals Day 4 had an average of: 35337 (HyuN vs Oz in the final)
*NOTE: Due to NASL folding ESL picked up WCS AM and due to short timing both WCS EU and AM finals were on the same day and split which is why it is different to all the other finals.
GSL S2 Finals had an average of: 17643 (Classic vs soO in the final)
WCS EU S2 Finals Finals Day 1 had an average of: 28643 Finals Day 2 had an average of: 38129 (StarDust vs San in the final)
WCS AM S2 Finals Finals Day 1 had an average of: 24150 Finals Day 2 had an average of: 31974 (Bomber vs Pigbaby in the final)
Observations
- It is clear when looking at this that WCS EU has been consistently the most popular outside of the Season Finals with Stephano vs Mvp in S1 2013 a highlight throughout all of WCS.
- GSL consistently struggles due to the time of day in which it takes place as AM are sleeping and EU are working or have school. Also none of the finals since Soulkey vs INnoVation have had the same level of hype with that series regarded as one of the best of the year simply because of the comeback.
- WCS AM has pretty consistent throughout.
- The high figures of the season finals indicates that people due enjoy watching koreans battle it out for high stakes.
- The season finals were generally the most popular events, concluding with the Global Finals.
- The hype generated by the Stephano vs Mvp series have gone unmatched and by looking at the figures it suggests as said time and again foreigner vs Korean finals have the most hype.
- Viewership for WCS is down this year especially compared with the early seasons last year.
All I've gotten from this is that Season Finals were awesome and that EU has declined quite a bit over the last 2 years. Regional finals look somewhat stable.
I think part of the problem with EU is that the guys play each other week in week out in GO4SC2, IEM qualifiers etc... So a RO8 match like Snute vs MMA is less hyped and significant as they play each other on a regular basis.
I agree. Even though the GSL guys will probably win every season finals I'm sure we get our hypes and hopes up for everyone of them.
The best viewership we had for WCS outside the the Global Finals was: WCS EU S1 2013 Day 2
2013
WCS EU S1 Finals Finals Day 1 had an average of: 55060 Finals Day 2 had an average of 80461 (Stephano vs Mvp in the final)
WCS KR (GSL) S1 Finals Had an average: 39738 (Soulkey vs INnoVation in the final)
WCS AM S1 Finals Finals Day 1 had an average of: 35468 Finals Day 2 had an average of: 43999 (HerO vs Revival in the final)
Season 1 Finals (In Korea) Finals Day 1 had an average of: 19190 Finals Day 2 had an average of: 26321 Finals Day had an average of: 33648 (sOs vs INnoVation in the final)
WCS KR S2 (OSL) Finals Had an average of: 18880 (Rain vs Maru in the final)
WCS EU S2 Finals Finals Day 1 had an average of: 45574 Finals Day 2 had an average of: 49893 (MC vs duckdeok in the final)
WCS AM S2 Finals Finals Day 1 had an average of: 35711 Finals Day 2 had an average of: 43682 (Jaedong vs Polt in the final)
Season 2 Finals (EU) Finals Day 1 had an average of: 57452 Finals Day 2 had an average of: 65112 Finals Day 3 had an average of: 72782 (Jaedong vs Bomber in the final)
WCS EU S3 Finals Finals Day 1 had an average of: 35065 Finals Day 2 had an average of: 42943 (MMA vs MC in the final)
WCS KR S3 (GSL) Finals Finals had an average of: 27264 (Dear vs soO in the final)
WCS AM S3 Finals Finals Day 1 had an average of: 28625 Finals Day 2 had an average of: 29800 (Polt vs ByuL in the final)
Season 3 Finals (AM) Finals Day 1 had an average of: 39666 Finals Day 2 had an average of: 45478 Finals Day 3 had an average of: 64584 (Dear vs Soulkey in the final)
Global Finals Finals Day 1 had an average of: 92404 Finals Day 2 had an average of: 88648 (Jaedong vs sOs in the final)
2014 So Far...
GSL S1: Finals had an average of: 20873 (Zest vs soO in the final)
WCS EU S1 Finals* Finals Day 1 had an average of: 24968 Finals Day 2 had an average of: 25755 Finals Day 3 had an average of: 30300 Finals Day 4 had an average of: 44113 (MMA vs MC in the final)
WCS AM S1 Finals* Finals Day 1 had an average of: 31918 Finals Day 2 had an average of: 30075 Finals Day 3 had an average of: 30998 Finals Day 4 had an average of: 35337 (HyuN vs Oz in the final)
*NOTE: Due to NASL folding ESL picked up WCS AM and due to short timing both WCS EU and AM finals were on the same day and split which is why it is different to all the other finals.
GSL S2 Finals had an average of: 17643 (Classic vs soO in the final)
WCS EU S2 Finals Finals Day 1 had an average of: 28643 Finals Day 2 had an average of: 38129 (StarDust vs San in the final)
WCS AM S2 Finals Finals Day 1 had an average of: 24150 Finals Day 2 had an average of: 31974 (Bomber vs Pigbaby in the final)
Observations
- It is clear when looking at this that WCS EU has been consistently the most popular outside of the Season Finals with Stephano vs Mvp in S1 2013 a highlight throughout all of WCS.
- GSL consistently struggles due to the time of day in which it takes place as AM are sleeping and EU are working or have school. Also none of the finals since Soulkey vs INnoVation have had the same level of hype with that series regarded as one of the best of the year simply because of the comeback.
- WCS AM has pretty consistent throughout.
- The high figures of the season finals indicates that people due enjoy watching koreans battle it out for high stakes.
- The season finals were generally the most popular events, concluding with the Global Finals.
- The hype generated by the Stephano vs Mvp series have gone unmatched and by looking at the figures it suggests as said time and again foreigner vs Korean finals have the most hype.
- Viewership for WCS is down this year especially compared with the early seasons last year.
All I've gotten from this is that Season Finals were awesome and that EU has declined quite a bit over the last 2 years. Regional finals look somewhat stable.
I think part of the problem with EU is that the guys play each other week in week out in GO4SC2, IEM qualifiers etc... So a RO8 match like Snute vs MMA is less hyped and significant as they play each other on a regular basis.
The problem for me is that the WCS events get less and less special every season. In Europe we had two new (-ly renovated) studios, we had player interviews after the online games, teaser before the game, hype videos, the Hübner, huge player posters behind each players, WCS Extra after every day. Some of those things were hit and miss but it was the effort that counted. There was the feeling that this was going to be big.
We have most of the stuff cut down or cut away entirely. The audience is very small, even now that admission is free. You get the in "7 hours until WCS XY starts" and "WCS Results Thread [Ro512]" threads on Reddit, that's it. I wouldn't know what would be on TL if Lorning wasn't around. I didn't even know when the EU regional finals were until the same weekend where they started.
Granted, the studio production runs very smoothly and professionally. But the games are there and not it Paris, Warsaw, Hamburg, Valencia, Stockholm to keep the cost down. Some people in the scene spoke out against the season finals which was good in my opinion, but they didn't buff the regional finals whatsoever. The difference of the first seasons and the later seasons is that WCS isn't ambitious. The feeling is that it is to keep SC2 alive, but not the HYPEHYPEHYPE fuckyeah SC2 everyone wanted Blizzard to go for.
This problem is much bigger than region restrictions or not.
I agree with that. ESL did a very good job for WCS EU 2013. I'm much less convinced about 2014. I miss the special features like post-match interviews for the Ro32 and WCS Extra. And please, please, do the season finals in a real venue, not the ESL studio.
Though, to be fair with ESL, this year they had to focus on WCS America as well.
On September 08 2014 15:51 Incognoto wrote: As if Blizzard is the only company that's capable of making a good RTS?
Companies aren't afraid that they won't be able to top SC2, companies just don't see a lot of ROI in making an RTS compared to making games for other game genres.
One thing that works for Blizzard is the long term investment, it might cost them alot of money. But it also makes sure that other companies are afraid of competing with them knowing that they would have to really commit to the product even after release. Which goes against most companies mindset of making sure people buy the product before its out, so they don't need to worry about the finished products quality and can already work on the sequel. So Blizzard uses money to reduce competition and makes good games along the way. Might be bad if you like variety in a genre, but makes sure that there is a good game every couple of years. Only works in genres were games can have staying power though.
On September 08 2014 15:51 Incognoto wrote: As if Blizzard is the only company that's capable of making a good RTS?
Companies aren't afraid that they won't be able to top SC2, companies just don't see a lot of ROI in making an RTS compared to making games for other game genres.
Yeah games like Candy Crush is easy and cheap to make. A ten thousand dollar app could potentially make millions quite easily.
SC2 probably cost Blizzard millions to develop.
edit: It would be interesting if a new Age of Empires or Red Alert tried to become competitive. Perhaps Warhammer would be a good competitor.
Games Workshop needs it. I think they are hurting. There was one in the mall for nearly two decades, and just recently closed up. A Warhammer RTS modelled to become an esport would be what GW needs to survive.
Correct me if I'm wrong here, but from what I've heard GW is close to flatlining? Doesn't seem like there is much room for investment in a long term project like a major PC title under thos conditions?
I used to be pretty involved in AOE2 a long time ago, I was expert level way back when the game was still kind of fresh. It's fairly balanced, among the the higher tier civs at least. Thing is, that has more to do with the fact that the civs are basically all the same, with minor variations. It's also complete ass to watch if you aren't already quite knowledgeable, way more than SC2 or even BW.
As for RA, eh, I dunno. I really don't think EA has any interest in pouring as much money into a niche market as Blizz has done with Sc2. Developers don't make RTS games because RTS games don't sell. They're too hard, ask too much from the player, and punish even small mistakes too harshly. I play with a group of five people who all enjoy the competitive play found in Dota, but they tear their hair out when trying to play Sc2.
You aren't wrong, GW is close to going bust. I just thought this could be a last ditch effort to revive a dying franchise. I think GW's Warhammer mmo already shut down servers, so maybe there is nothing left but to say a prayer.
I don't know if there could be anything to rival SC2, I just remember some of the games I played alongside BW.
The best viewership we had for WCS outside the the Global Finals was: WCS EU S1 2013 Day 2
2013
WCS EU S1 Finals Finals Day 1 had an average of: 55060 Finals Day 2 had an average of 80461 (Stephano vs Mvp in the final)
WCS KR (GSL) S1 Finals Had an average: 39738 (Soulkey vs INnoVation in the final)
WCS AM S1 Finals Finals Day 1 had an average of: 35468 Finals Day 2 had an average of: 43999 (HerO vs Revival in the final)
Season 1 Finals (In Korea) Finals Day 1 had an average of: 19190 Finals Day 2 had an average of: 26321 Finals Day had an average of: 33648 (sOs vs INnoVation in the final)
WCS KR S2 (OSL) Finals Had an average of: 18880 (Rain vs Maru in the final)
WCS EU S2 Finals Finals Day 1 had an average of: 45574 Finals Day 2 had an average of: 49893 (MC vs duckdeok in the final)
WCS AM S2 Finals Finals Day 1 had an average of: 35711 Finals Day 2 had an average of: 43682 (Jaedong vs Polt in the final)
Season 2 Finals (EU) Finals Day 1 had an average of: 57452 Finals Day 2 had an average of: 65112 Finals Day 3 had an average of: 72782 (Jaedong vs Bomber in the final)
WCS EU S3 Finals Finals Day 1 had an average of: 35065 Finals Day 2 had an average of: 42943 (MMA vs MC in the final)
WCS KR S3 (GSL) Finals Finals had an average of: 27264 (Dear vs soO in the final)
WCS AM S3 Finals Finals Day 1 had an average of: 28625 Finals Day 2 had an average of: 29800 (Polt vs ByuL in the final)
Season 3 Finals (AM) Finals Day 1 had an average of: 39666 Finals Day 2 had an average of: 45478 Finals Day 3 had an average of: 64584 (Dear vs Soulkey in the final)
Global Finals Finals Day 1 had an average of: 92404 Finals Day 2 had an average of: 88648 (Jaedong vs sOs in the final)
2014 So Far...
GSL S1: Finals had an average of: 20873 (Zest vs soO in the final)
WCS EU S1 Finals* Finals Day 1 had an average of: 24968 Finals Day 2 had an average of: 25755 Finals Day 3 had an average of: 30300 Finals Day 4 had an average of: 44113 (MMA vs MC in the final)
WCS AM S1 Finals* Finals Day 1 had an average of: 31918 Finals Day 2 had an average of: 30075 Finals Day 3 had an average of: 30998 Finals Day 4 had an average of: 35337 (HyuN vs Oz in the final)
*NOTE: Due to NASL folding ESL picked up WCS AM and due to short timing both WCS EU and AM finals were on the same day and split which is why it is different to all the other finals.
GSL S2 Finals had an average of: 17643 (Classic vs soO in the final)
WCS EU S2 Finals Finals Day 1 had an average of: 28643 Finals Day 2 had an average of: 38129 (StarDust vs San in the final)
WCS AM S2 Finals Finals Day 1 had an average of: 24150 Finals Day 2 had an average of: 31974 (Bomber vs Pigbaby in the final)
Observations
- It is clear when looking at this that WCS EU has been consistently the most popular outside of the Season Finals with Stephano vs Mvp in S1 2013 a highlight throughout all of WCS.
- GSL consistently struggles due to the time of day in which it takes place as AM are sleeping and EU are working or have school. Also none of the finals since Soulkey vs INnoVation have had the same level of hype with that series regarded as one of the best of the year simply because of the comeback.
- WCS AM has pretty consistent throughout.
- The high figures of the season finals indicates that people due enjoy watching koreans battle it out for high stakes.
- The season finals were generally the most popular events, concluding with the Global Finals.
- The hype generated by the Stephano vs Mvp series have gone unmatched and by looking at the figures it suggests as said time and again foreigner vs Korean finals have the most hype.
- Viewership for WCS is down this year especially compared with the early seasons last year.
All I've gotten from this is that Season Finals were awesome and that EU has declined quite a bit over the last 2 years. Regional finals look somewhat stable.
I think part of the problem with EU is that the guys play each other week in week out in GO4SC2, IEM qualifiers etc... So a RO8 match like Snute vs MMA is less hyped and significant as they play each other on a regular basis.
The problem for me is that the WCS events get less and less special every season. In Europe we had two new (-ly renovated) studios, we had player interviews after the online games, teaser before the game, hype videos, the Hübner, huge player posters behind each players, WCS Extra after every day. Some of those things were hit and miss but it was the effort that counted. There was the feeling that this was going to be big.
We have most of the stuff cut down or cut away entirely. The audience is very small, even now that admission is free. You get the in "7 hours until WCS XY starts" and "WCS Results Thread [Ro512]" threads on Reddit, that's it. I wouldn't know what would be on TL if Lorning wasn't around. I didn't even know when the EU regional finals were until the same weekend where they started.
Granted, the studio production runs very smoothly and professionally. But the games are there and not it Paris, Warsaw, Hamburg, Valencia, Stockholm to keep the cost down. Some people in the scene spoke out against the season finals which was good in my opinion, but they didn't buff the regional finals whatsoever. The difference of the first seasons and the later seasons is that WCS isn't ambitious. The feeling is that it is to keep SC2 alive, but not the HYPEHYPEHYPE fuckyeah SC2 everyone wanted Blizzard to go for.
This problem is much bigger than region restrictions or not.
This was very well formulated. Last year I watched a lot of WCS, mostly America, but also Europe. This year I think I've caught like 10 series in total. It isn't interesting, and I think you describe why in a good manner.
Of course, this year as with last year, I watch everything coming out of Korea. GSL <3
On September 08 2014 15:51 Incognoto wrote: As if Blizzard is the only company that's capable of making a good RTS?
Companies aren't afraid that they won't be able to top SC2, companies just don't see a lot of ROI in making an RTS compared to making games for other game genres.
Yeah games like Candy Crush is easy and cheap to make. A ten thousand dollar app could potentially make millions quite easily.
SC2 probably cost Blizzard millions to develop.
edit: It would be interesting if a new Age of Empires or Red Alert tried to become competitive. Perhaps Warhammer would be a good competitor.
Games Workshop needs it. I think they are hurting. There was one in the mall for nearly two decades, and just recently closed up. A Warhammer RTS modelled to become an esport would be what GW needs to survive.
Correct me if I'm wrong here, but from what I've heard GW is close to flatlining? Doesn't seem like there is much room for investment in a long term project like a major PC title under thos conditions?
I used to be pretty involved in AOE2 a long time ago, I was expert level way back when the game was still kind of fresh. It's fairly balanced, among the the higher tier civs at least. Thing is, that has more to do with the fact that the civs are basically all the same, with minor variations. It's also complete ass to watch if you aren't already quite knowledgeable, way more than SC2 or even BW.
As for RA, eh, I dunno. I really don't think EA has any interest in pouring as much money into a niche market as Blizz has done with Sc2. Developers don't make RTS games because RTS games don't sell. They're too hard, ask too much from the player, and punish even small mistakes too harshly. I play with a group of five people who all enjoy the competitive play found in Dota, but they tear their hair out when trying to play Sc2.
You aren't wrong, GW is close to going bust. I just thought this could be a last ditch effort to revive a dying franchise. I think GW's Warhammer mmo already shut down servers, so maybe there is nothing left but to say a prayer.
I don't know if there could be anything to rival SC2, I just remember some of the games I played alongside BW.
Yeah, their MMO has been pushing up daisies for a while now. I actually liked a lot of the ideas, but the implementation was awful.
I enjoyed dawn of war for what it was, but it never really struck me as anything that could be very esports friendly. I'm perfectly open to anything new of the RTS scene, it's about as vibrant and vivacious as Whitney Houston currently, outside of Sc2. I just don't see anything forthcoming. Gone are the days of TA, Dark Reign and Ground Control, alas.
On September 08 2014 16:31 Duprix wrote: I am not sure if this is a good thing. I felt that the Koreans participating in EU and NA were increasing the skill level of the foreigners and they give better more exciting games. I don't mind that Koreans dominate the EU or NA scene. I wan to see the best StarCraft being played in each region.
without Koreans the lvl of play will drop in EU and NA. and spectating will be less awesome. and people can lose interest in the game. this should be monitored and handled with care by blizzard.
I understand that Koreans can still compete in the region if they live there but I am not sure if they will move and reside in another country.
time will tell I guess.
Can't quite agree with the point of viewership. I think many people will watch because it's locked and they can cheer for their country's players again. It's ok in the EU region, because except for San, every Round of 16 player so far lives in Europe and there are only 9 or 10 Koreans in the Premier League overall. I think the problem is NA. There are always 12 - 14 Koreans in the Top 16 and that's bad for everyone involved (except the Koreans that make easy money there). If they want to participate in the NA Region, do it like Polt and viOLet. Maybe the scene will flourish because NA clans will make the decision to open a few team houses and invite Koreans.
myths: at the end of the day guys it changes nothing in terms of viewership because the same amount of people will tune in. The numbers are very consistent. Just like the numbers for the RIOT LCS have been consistent for some time as well.
Can't quite agree with the point of viewership. I think many people will watch because it's locked and they can cheer for their country's players again.
Even if we assume your correct that the all german Sc2-fans will watch the german players battle it out, that only applies for Germans. Given that Germany probably counts for less than 10% of the entire viewer segment, the overall effect here isn't very significant.
For everyone else, they are much much less likely to watch "medicore" players from other Non-Koreans countries relative to watching for instance MMA vs TLO (or other solid Koreans vs foreigner matchups).
My belief is that the overall effect is negative here.
The concept everyone in favor of region-locking seems to be missing is that while in "real" sports, the local country has a high enough fanbase to support the fanbase. But in Sc2, players are much more reliant on viewers from different countries, and thus viewers care much more about watching the highest quality play.
For instance, you don't see Danes tuning into the Scottish football league very often, but they will tune into the English Premier League/La Liga or Champions league because that has the best players.
Can't quite agree with the point of viewership. I think many people will watch because it's locked and they can cheer for their country's players again.
Even if we assume your correct that the all german Sc2-fans will watch the german players battle it out, that only applies for Germans. Given that Germany probably counts for less than 10% of the entire viewer segment, the overall effect here isn't very significant.
For everyone else, they are much much less likely to watch "medicore" players from other Non-Koreans countries relative to watching for instance MMA vs TLO (or other solid Koreans vs foreigner matchups).
My belief is that the overall effect is negative here.
The concept everyone in favor of region-locking seems to be missing is that while in "real" sports, the local country has a high enough fanbase to support the fanbase. But in Sc2, players are much more reliant on viewers from different countries, and thus viewers care much more about watching the highest quality play.
For instance, you don't see Danes tuning into the Scottish football league very often, but they will tune into the English Premier League/La Liga or Champions league because that has the best players.
Real sports involves a lot of money. Because of that, really cannot compare to SC2. In past WCS, it felt more like the Koreans were working the system. 14 Koreans in WCS NA ro16, or whatever the numbers were, was comical. It's not like in football where a team from another region pays millions of dollars to bring a new player in. This was basically the Koreans saying, "Okay, where is the easiest region to make money?". Can't blame them for doing so, but I can appreciate Blizzards changes, they want the game to grow regionally and bring in fresh talent. I'm tired of seeing the same players each and every season.
On September 08 2014 15:51 Incognoto wrote: As if Blizzard is the only company that's capable of making a good RTS?
Companies aren't afraid that they won't be able to top SC2, companies just don't see a lot of ROI in making an RTS compared to making games for other game genres.
I don't really know why but it just seems like with all the complaints about Blizzard games (SC2 for RTS, WoW for MMO) game devs haven't managed to make anything more popular for awhile now. Might just be brand recognition or it might be quality but Blizzard games tend to stay on top.
Not trying to start a debate on the merits/flaws of Blizzard games or their competitors pls I don't want to argue about if Rift is good for a pages on end :D
EPT
