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On August 12 2014 07:14 TotalBiscuit wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2014 07:10 Kimb3r wrote:On August 12 2014 00:59 Destiny wrote:On August 12 2014 00:56 Kimb3r wrote:I was able to raise $1,800 from sponsorships for this event. Since the tournament was fully funded via the Indiegogo, this is money that I can essentially pocket as my "take home" pay for organizing/casting the tournament. You let the viewers pay and go home with the sponsorship money. I think you should have mentioned that before fundraising, I would definitely be pissed, would I have had donated money for this event. Why? I raised $5,500 via Indiegogo and said I would put it all towards the tournament. I did. All of the money's been paid out. What on earth could you possibly be mad about? Firstly, I am not mad, because I did not donate nothing, because of that I do not care that much. Secondly, I doubt you mentioned that, even if you would put all money you get from Indiegogo into the tournament, that at the same would take all money the sponsors put into the tournament (on your post on Indiegogo). You speak about being transparent, while you are not. Thirdly, 1,800$ for organizing an event like that? In my opinion it is just too much. But the people who donate have to decide if the 1.800$ you put in your own pocket are worth it. Show nested quote +Thirdly, 1,800$ for organizing an event like that? In my opinion it is just too much.
This is the kind of thing someone who hasnt worked a day in his life would say. $1800 for over a months worth of work and organization is dogshit, you're better off working at McDonalds, it's less stress.
Everyone who said the $1800 is too much donated $0 to this tournament and contributed nothing to anything of importance in their life. I would take their words seriously and be too worked up about it.
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I am not aware whether it has already been written, but
Destiny please offer a dark and light style of your website.
A person who believes reading with a black background is hard on the eyes :-)
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I don't care if he made and pockets $1800. The only thing is maybe let sponsors know it's going towards his pocket vs the tourney. Some of the sponsors might've thought it was for prize pool (I don't know).
The one that bothered me was the insane amount of cussing Destiny does. I've had it on at home or work, with kids around and would constantly have to mute when he gets into his fit of "f*ck - f*ck - f*ck"...
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transparency is always really good. we made me happy, and proud. out little destiny grown so bold.
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On August 12 2014 06:38 MstrJinbo wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2014 06:29 vitruvia wrote:On August 12 2014 01:24 cheeseheadlogic wrote:On August 12 2014 01:10 Doomhunter wrote:
Two points that I want to chime in on:
Kespa - I think that in the future inviting Kespa players is the right thing to do. Kespa's reply to Destiny in my opinion displays their complete obliviousness to the non-Korean StarCraft scene. They have a ton to gain from sending players to this. In all honesty I watched maybe 5 non-playoff Proleague games since EG-TL decided not to participate because I don't really care about the players. The Korean's I know and love are Hero, Polt, MC, Innovation, Bomber, etc because I get to see them play at every tournament and root both for and against them. Kespa has the chance to build the brand of unknown players and draw in viewers for their own league. It doesn't even have to be A-List players like Flash - send Shine, Trust, or Salvation and grow the viewership for games outside of the ones where SKT or KT are playing. Not to mention MAKE YOUR PLAYERS SOME MONEY. Its ridiculous that in 2014 a player like MC is going to out-earn probably 95% of the Kespa players.
Destiny's Fee - 1800 is insanely low for the amount of work he put into this and use of his personal brand. A full week's worth of casting alone is probably worth 1800 not to mention the setup and prep work that went into it. The good news for anyone that disagrees is that if you donated and didn't like the fee, you have the chance to not donate to the next event. My prediction however is that donations will only go up from here. Kespa will always be Kespa, not to begin an ethnic discussion but korean business principles seem to differ compared to NA. They are very stingie with how they handle things and tend to be very filtered, and to a certain extent getting to a point of committal takes longer. Def agree with 1800 being insanely low. Majority of people do not understand the amount of planning, coordination, prep, and actual time put into this type of an event. Tough to put an exact number, but a lot of people who have to do way way less than what Steven did, make more. $1800 for 6+ days of work is less than $300 a day, most of us office workers can get by $200 a day just sitting around playing mmorpgs 50% of the times while at work. Seeing that destiny's getting barely any sleep a day during the 2 weeks around the tournament makes the $1800 pocketed ore than justifiable if not a bit under-deserved. It's significantly less when you factor in taxes. I wish it was $1800.
maybe you should host MstrJinbo I, i'll be your first contributor.
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On August 12 2014 07:30 Kevin_Sorbo wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2014 06:34 Jett.Jack.Alvir wrote:
This was certainly quite a task for one person to assemble, and I applaud you Steven for it. As well, your take home fee from sponsors is quite reasonable considering the time and effort. With that in mind, I would like to discuss your sponsorship and crowdsourced funding, as well as the Kespa situation.
If you decide for your next tourney to go purely crowdsourcing, you can't realistically believe the entire "crowd" will accept $1800 as your cut for the tournament. Although you already have support from most of the community regarding your fee, keep in mind this is because this money was procured from sponsorships.
Hypothetically speaking, lets say you did not have sponsors for Destiny I, so your take home would be a cut from the $5,500 you raised from the community. Do you think we would be readily accepting that you took $1,800 to pay yourself? That is approximately 33% of the money raised. That question can't be reasonably answered, but I can make an assumption that many would not have a positive reception.
If you decide to decline seeking sponsorships, I don't think you can reasonably pay yourself $1,800 because, as Crot4le mentioned, that would turn your entire tournament into a pure charity, and taking a large cut from charity seems unfair and counter-intuitive.
You like transparency, which is great, so if you decide to drop all sponsorships, then please add in your take home fee. You can either decide to take a small percentage or a set fee.
I would suggest you do not drop sponsorships. I think your model of crowdsource for tournament fees, while sponsorship for your fee is a great balance. The crowdsource fund should go directly into the tournament, while sponsorships should pay for your efforts to gain those sponsors.
Now to switch gears and discuss my opinion on Kespa's involvement (or lack of).
It's not unreasonable for Kespa to ask "what can you do for us?" Essentially, they hold most of the cards, and you are not an equal to them. What they want is assurance you will be a success; previous numbers to prove said success; financial documents to determine risk; and probably more information before they make a decision to allow their players an opportunity in your tournament.
Yes, some will say that their risk is negligible for various reasons, but that might not be their perspective. Kespa has a brand to uphold, as much as you do. They will not take any risk to damage their brand, and neither would you.
Kespa is like a bank, and you are seeking a loan. Until you can convince the bank you are a low risk, high reward customer, they will never give you the loan you seek. I am totally cool with someone making a living out of starcraft. I wish there were more. Are you jelly or what??? 1800$ for what he did is peanuts man. edit: I dont know why ppl get their panties in a bunch for this seriously. Its like they dont realize there are relations between the risk/reward and time/money concepts lmao.
I think you may have interpreted my post differently. I totally support Steven, and I agree that $1,800 is an acceptable amount for his effort.
However, if he went the route of purely crowdsourcing, than taking $1,800 from the $5,500 raised might be too much. If he said that he wants to take home only $1,800 and raised $8,000, then I would be totally cool with that. Or if he stated his take home from the crowdsource will only be a flat fee, and all other funds goes to the tournament, that would be acceptable.
Lets put it in a different perspective.
Lets say someone approached you to donate to a charity to help a worthy cause, and you are convinced to donate. How would you feel if a large chunk of your donation instead went into the hands of greedy corporations, while the rest of the money went to the actual charity? I understand there are administrative fees etc., but that should be a set fee, not a percentage of the money raised.
Now I know this might not be the same scenario, but the same feelings still apply. If I donate my money to the tournament, I want that money to go into the pockets of the winner.
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Germany3128 Posts
On August 12 2014 07:47 Freeedom wrote:
I don't care if he made and pockets $1800. The only thing is maybe let sponsors know it's going towards his pocket vs the tourney. Some of the sponsors might've thought it was for prize pool (I don't know).
The one that bothered me was the insane amount of cussing Destiny does. I've had it on at home or work, with kids around and would constantly have to mute when he gets into his fit of "f*ck - f*ck - f*ck"...
Not sure if Destiny told the sponsors beforehand that he would take the money but atleast one of the sponsors mentioned somewhere in this thread that Destiny earned himself the money. So everything seems to be okay with them.
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On August 12 2014 07:51 Jett.Jack.Alvir wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2014 07:30 Kevin_Sorbo wrote:On August 12 2014 06:34 Jett.Jack.Alvir wrote:
This was certainly quite a task for one person to assemble, and I applaud you Steven for it. As well, your take home fee from sponsors is quite reasonable considering the time and effort. With that in mind, I would like to discuss your sponsorship and crowdsourced funding, as well as the Kespa situation.
If you decide for your next tourney to go purely crowdsourcing, you can't realistically believe the entire "crowd" will accept $1800 as your cut for the tournament. Although you already have support from most of the community regarding your fee, keep in mind this is because this money was procured from sponsorships.
Hypothetically speaking, lets say you did not have sponsors for Destiny I, so your take home would be a cut from the $5,500 you raised from the community. Do you think we would be readily accepting that you took $1,800 to pay yourself? That is approximately 33% of the money raised. That question can't be reasonably answered, but I can make an assumption that many would not have a positive reception.
If you decide to decline seeking sponsorships, I don't think you can reasonably pay yourself $1,800 because, as Crot4le mentioned, that would turn your entire tournament into a pure charity, and taking a large cut from charity seems unfair and counter-intuitive.
You like transparency, which is great, so if you decide to drop all sponsorships, then please add in your take home fee. You can either decide to take a small percentage or a set fee.
I would suggest you do not drop sponsorships. I think your model of crowdsource for tournament fees, while sponsorship for your fee is a great balance. The crowdsource fund should go directly into the tournament, while sponsorships should pay for your efforts to gain those sponsors.
Now to switch gears and discuss my opinion on Kespa's involvement (or lack of).
It's not unreasonable for Kespa to ask "what can you do for us?" Essentially, they hold most of the cards, and you are not an equal to them. What they want is assurance you will be a success; previous numbers to prove said success; financial documents to determine risk; and probably more information before they make a decision to allow their players an opportunity in your tournament.
Yes, some will say that their risk is negligible for various reasons, but that might not be their perspective. Kespa has a brand to uphold, as much as you do. They will not take any risk to damage their brand, and neither would you.
Kespa is like a bank, and you are seeking a loan. Until you can convince the bank you are a low risk, high reward customer, they will never give you the loan you seek. I am totally cool with someone making a living out of starcraft. I wish there were more. Are you jelly or what??? 1800$ for what he did is peanuts man. edit: I dont know why ppl get their panties in a bunch for this seriously. Its like they dont realize there are relations between the risk/reward and time/money concepts lmao. I think you may have interpreted my post differently. I totally support Steven, and I agree that $1,800 is an acceptable amount for his effort. However, if he went the route of purely crowdsourcing, than taking $1,800 from the $5,500 raised might be too much. If he said that he wants to take home only $1,800 and raised $8,000, then I would be totally cool with that. Or if he stated his take home from the crowdsource will only be a flat fee, and all other funds goes to the tournament, that would be acceptable. Lets put it in a different perspective. Lets say someone approached you to donate to a charity to help a worthy cause, and you are convinced to donate. How would you feel if a large chunk of your donation instead went into the hands of greedy corporations, while the rest of the money went to the actual charity? I understand there are administrative fees etc., but that should be a set fee, not a percentage of the money raised. Now I know this might not be the same scenario, but the same feelings still apply. If I donate my money to the tournament, I want that money to go into the pockets of the winner.
Actually you make a good point. It's one thing if this was stated before, vs "hey this made a lot of cash, let me keep some of it... I deserve x amount".
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Russian Federation232 Posts
On August 12 2014 07:10 Kimb3r wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2014 00:59 Destiny wrote:On August 12 2014 00:56 Kimb3r wrote:I was able to raise $1,800 from sponsorships for this event. Since the tournament was fully funded via the Indiegogo, this is money that I can essentially pocket as my "take home" pay for organizing/casting the tournament. You let the viewers pay and go home with the sponsorship money. I think you should have mentioned that before fundraising, I would definitely be pissed, would I have had donated money for this event. Why? I raised $5,500 via Indiegogo and said I would put it all towards the tournament. I did. All of the money's been paid out. What on earth could you possibly be mad about? Firstly, I am not mad, because I did not donate nothing, because of that I do not care that much. Secondly, I doubt you mentioned that, even if you would put all money you get from Indiegogo into the tournament, that at the same would take all money the sponsors put into the tournament (on your post on Indiegogo). You speak about being transparent, while you are not. Thirdly, 1,800$ for organizing an event like that? In my opinion it is just too much. But the people who donate have to decide if the 1.800$ you put in your own pocket are worth it.
dude you're a clown.
Destiny has been transparent and has not done anything weird- if anything $1800 is very little for this amount of time, effort and organization is not much at all.
Destiny I would not even reply to a guy like this one he's obviously being a dick for the sake of it
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You should make provisions for properly researching and paying taxes on your crowdfunding campaigns. Funds generated through crowdfunding count as income, and any products "sold" through crowdfunding will need to include applicable sales tax.
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I enjoyed the tourney and contributed a little to indiegogo, but I think those costs should only cover the prize pool. Asking to make a profit out of indiegogo contributions alone is a little much, seeing how the broadcaster already gets ad revenue.
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On August 12 2014 07:57 Freeedom wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2014 07:51 Jett.Jack.Alvir wrote:On August 12 2014 07:30 Kevin_Sorbo wrote:On August 12 2014 06:34 Jett.Jack.Alvir wrote:
This was certainly quite a task for one person to assemble, and I applaud you Steven for it. As well, your take home fee from sponsors is quite reasonable considering the time and effort. With that in mind, I would like to discuss your sponsorship and crowdsourced funding, as well as the Kespa situation.
If you decide for your next tourney to go purely crowdsourcing, you can't realistically believe the entire "crowd" will accept $1800 as your cut for the tournament. Although you already have support from most of the community regarding your fee, keep in mind this is because this money was procured from sponsorships.
Hypothetically speaking, lets say you did not have sponsors for Destiny I, so your take home would be a cut from the $5,500 you raised from the community. Do you think we would be readily accepting that you took $1,800 to pay yourself? That is approximately 33% of the money raised. That question can't be reasonably answered, but I can make an assumption that many would not have a positive reception.
If you decide to decline seeking sponsorships, I don't think you can reasonably pay yourself $1,800 because, as Crot4le mentioned, that would turn your entire tournament into a pure charity, and taking a large cut from charity seems unfair and counter-intuitive.
You like transparency, which is great, so if you decide to drop all sponsorships, then please add in your take home fee. You can either decide to take a small percentage or a set fee.
I would suggest you do not drop sponsorships. I think your model of crowdsource for tournament fees, while sponsorship for your fee is a great balance. The crowdsource fund should go directly into the tournament, while sponsorships should pay for your efforts to gain those sponsors.
Now to switch gears and discuss my opinion on Kespa's involvement (or lack of).
It's not unreasonable for Kespa to ask "what can you do for us?" Essentially, they hold most of the cards, and you are not an equal to them. What they want is assurance you will be a success; previous numbers to prove said success; financial documents to determine risk; and probably more information before they make a decision to allow their players an opportunity in your tournament.
Yes, some will say that their risk is negligible for various reasons, but that might not be their perspective. Kespa has a brand to uphold, as much as you do. They will not take any risk to damage their brand, and neither would you.
Kespa is like a bank, and you are seeking a loan. Until you can convince the bank you are a low risk, high reward customer, they will never give you the loan you seek. I am totally cool with someone making a living out of starcraft. I wish there were more. Are you jelly or what??? 1800$ for what he did is peanuts man. edit: I dont know why ppl get their panties in a bunch for this seriously. Its like they dont realize there are relations between the risk/reward and time/money concepts lmao. I think you may have interpreted my post differently. I totally support Steven, and I agree that $1,800 is an acceptable amount for his effort. However, if he went the route of purely crowdsourcing, than taking $1,800 from the $5,500 raised might be too much. If he said that he wants to take home only $1,800 and raised $8,000, then I would be totally cool with that. Or if he stated his take home from the crowdsource will only be a flat fee, and all other funds goes to the tournament, that would be acceptable. Lets put it in a different perspective. Lets say someone approached you to donate to a charity to help a worthy cause, and you are convinced to donate. How would you feel if a large chunk of your donation instead went into the hands of greedy corporations, while the rest of the money went to the actual charity? I understand there are administrative fees etc., but that should be a set fee, not a percentage of the money raised. Now I know this might not be the same scenario, but the same feelings still apply. If I donate my money to the tournament, I want that money to go into the pockets of the winner. Actually you make a good point. It's one thing if this was stated before, vs "hey this made a lot of cash, let me keep some of it... I deserve x amount".
if he says its a 4.000$ tourney and he pays 4000$ dollars to the players then he can do whatever he wants with the rest of the money.
I wish guys like him made money so we could have more guys like him.
Crowfunding his tourney is like getting sponsored by you and me, but we dont want our brands advertised, only sc.
anyways hope Destiny can make it happen again!!
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On August 12 2014 08:03 Derez wrote:
I enjoyed the tourney and contributed a little to indiegogo, but I think those costs should only cover the prize pool. Asking to make a profit out of indiegogo contributions alone is a little much, seeing how the broadcaster already gets ad revenue.
There weren't any ads. if you've watched the stream you'd know that, and the profit wasn't even from the crowdfunding, it was from the sponsors.
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On August 12 2014 07:47 Freeedom wrote:
I don't care if he made and pockets $1800. The only thing is maybe let sponsors know it's going towards his pocket vs the tourney. Some of the sponsors might've thought it was for prize pool (I don't know).
The one that bothered me was the insane amount of cussing Destiny does. I've had it on at home or work, with kids around and would constantly have to mute when he gets into his fit of "f*ck - f*ck - f*ck"...
Kids around at work? Do you work in a kindergarten or something? Sounds like you should buy yourself a pair of headphones.
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Destiny: I dont want to burn bridges with KESPA but they are cheap and fuck them and I hate them
lol
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Destiny, could you tell us how many people subscribed (or uppgraded their account) on your webiste? It would be great if you could share the average amount of people doing this (every week, month...) and compare it to the week during the tournament.
It would also be interesting to see how subscriptions keep coming, as you said there are "Higher chance(s) to convert casual stream viewers to a personal fan if they enjoy the website and the community.".
This tournament has worked really great and you will get more money from sponsors without a doubt. About that, could you give some precisions about the viewership? Do you have some statistics about the countries where people watched it from?
Did you get feedbacks from those who bought the "viewers hand-off"? Did it help to determine a price to that, you don't seem to know how much this is worth yet.
As someone planning on studying online advertising, potentially focusing on Esport, I truly enjoy your transparency.
I think a second indiegogo might be a bit risky though (esp 10k). Some people might consider that you do not need the money. (EDIT : So far the Strawpolls look encouraging though)
Bringing Kespa players could be a way to encourage crowfunding, no matter how blind they have been (easy to say that now, but I could have bet money on the popularity of this event) and not matter how much I would like to see K-pop remain there along with the popularity of their players.
Another way, as mentioned earlier, could be working on those perks given to the crowdfunders.
Thanks for the event(s) and the answers man! Sleep well.
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It's not strange at all as they're protecting their image and players.
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awesome stuff, huge props to you sir.
good luck on destiny II
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On August 12 2014 06:46 Zocat wrote:
Another problem was proleague. If you are not a SKT / KT fan, but a fan of say... Stork and he plays in Destiny I. What would you watch? Destiny I or Proleague? For some people the answer is "Destiny I". Again bad for KeSPA (It's save to assume that they favour Korean tournaments over international ones).
There was no way that was going to happen because Proleague finished airing hours before Destiny did his broadcast. There would have never been any conflict regarding which stream to view.
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Good transparency.
Kespa only wants money, fuck em. The benefit to their players is obvious - their players will likely win it all, and make some money. Online. Without travel costs.
Kespa's comment where they ask about Destiny sponsors is just a data grab to see if they can snag esports related sponsors/contacts, this is one of the oldests sales tricks in the book. Kespa is a direct competitor to Destiny tournament series. Both are Starcraft series, though they have different markets and revenue streams, they perform the same function the same way to thes same type of viewers/market/sponsors/demographics.
Let kespa rot. They can run their communist tournament, I say international community boycott them entirely.
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EPT
