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On July 26 2014 01:03 XXXSmOke wrote:Show nested quote +On July 25 2014 23:52 SatedSC2 wrote:
I don't know why people talk about Terran versatility as if Protoss has any versatility. Protoss can't go Skytoss any more than Terran can go Mech/Skyterran...
#BuffTheCarrier Both cant go skybuild true, however the reason is pretty obivous...... Protoss 1249124124 builds Terran 1 build. Protoss Units that are useless in the MU? Tempest/Carrier Terran units that are useless in the MU? Tanks/Thors/Banshees/Hellions/BC's/Ravens/. Protoss Strategies: Blink all in, Collsus, Fast Templer, Fast third, etc....... Terran strategies, Drop at 12 min. Make sense?
Uh hellions, tempest, are used in PVT matches often in top Korean scene what are you talking about? Hellion is a common opener in PVT, Tempest vs Terran works as well, we see people like SoS and other Koreans make it work vs bio on certain maps.
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On July 26 2014 00:35 DomeGetta wrote:Show nested quote +On July 26 2014 00:24 Decendos wrote:On July 26 2014 00:00 DomeGetta wrote:On July 25 2014 23:49 Decendos wrote:On July 25 2014 23:33 DomeGetta wrote:On July 25 2014 23:30 parkufarku wrote:On July 25 2014 20:07 LSN wrote:On July 25 2014 17:10 darkscream wrote:
"hmmm, terran is losing to protoss.. i know, lets just buff their lowest attention/APM unit so it's always good in every situation against everything, since Bio just isn't versatile enough"
--Blizzard The "bio isnt versatile enough" hits the nail. Improvements to SC2 could be implemented with giving terran transitions in and out of mech/air instead of focusing both tvz/p even more on bio mine than it already is. You do realize that he was being sarcastic right? Bio is THE definition of versatile. You have the most cost efficient army & units & production path & upgrade (air and vehicle upgrade), and now you want to be able to tech switch flawlessly too? I think a good start would be increasing the gas cost on medicvacs, and separating air & vehicle upgrades again. Make Stim last a shorter amount of time or reduce the overall DPS of the bio army. T is way less gas-constrained than the other 2 races, so they need fewer bases, but at the same time, their bases are easier to defend & harder to destroy. I would be supportive of tanks getting a 10 damage buff if Bio is nerfed heavily. Medivacs now cost 150 gas, marines now do 1 damage less, stim lasts 75% of current duration, marauder loses 20 health What in the fuck? I can't tell if this a total troll post or someone who is just that delusional.. Do you not realize that the patch is to buff T bc it is proven UP? T is UP in TvP. in TvZ there where much bigger differences in the past (2010 and early 2011 heavily T favored, during BL infestor times heavily Z favored, pre-overseer speedbuff HOTS pretty T favored (not as much as the other 2 times)). right now we see approximately as many T as Z players in GSL Code S next season while there are much more P players. so this patch doesnt do much to help TvP but probably gonna mess up TvZ. we will see about that but i guess especially WMs will be too strong after this patch in TvZ. I disagree in terms of the simplicity of the assumptions - The # of code S players is relevant but a very small indicator in my opinion in terms of overall balance. You have to factor in the total picture, not isolate Tvp and Tvz - if P is OP vs T and Z, and Z is OP vs T - you might still have substantially less Z players than P players independent of TvZ due to Protoss eliminating zergs.. and vice versa for # of T players... the individual matchups themselves even have to be considered - for instance Flash beating Symbol and Hush - based on proleague results Flash is a top 5 Terran in the world.. Symbol and Hush are not in the conversation of their race. Innovation same deal - Ruin and Hurricane would not be considered top 5 Protoss players. Having said that - really in my opinion the ro16 even ro8 results are a better overall indicator.. at this point you typically have the best players of each race squaring off. If a patch doesn't go through before then I would bet my savings you won't see a Terran..maybe Maru will some how get in lol - but we all saw how he did it this past season. if P is OP vs T and Z and Z OP vs T....why would you get about the same amount of T and Z Code S players next season then? also there are other T players than flash and innovation advancing + you forget to mention P and Z players that advance not because of their race but because of skill like sos, rain, drg etc. TvZ definetly wasnt broken and i havent heard pros say so. all there was, was a slight Z favor which might turn into a big T favor after thor and especially mine buff which was over the top imo. and most of all buffing T midgame even more just makes it so that Z has to defensive turtle once again and try to somehow get out mass muta or ultras. blizz shouldve buffed lategame T and help T especially in PvT. Did you read my post? I basically explained exactly how you could get a close to even (though not even) amount of players in code S without the game being balanced. It's hard to answer your question about Tvz being "broken" because that's a pretty vague description - but in terms of it being heavily favored for Z there are plenty of pro players who have said it - not that that makes it relevant whatsoever as pros get paid to WIN the game so I'm not sure why any would honestly say that their race was OP. It's pretty unanimously understood that once Z gets to a critical mass of banelings / mutas there is no real way for the Terran to trade cost effectively and keep up with economy at the same time.. it's very difficult to argue this point. Before the widow-mine nerf this was not the case, there was enough splash to zone out ling/bling/muta a moves so that in the event the game did get to the post -20 min mark the Terran still had a chance to win.. Ultra/Infestor and creep spread mitigate the effect of mines super-late game - not to mention that there is plenty of data that has been analyzed (Post overseer BUFF and Pre Mine NERF) that show a balanced professional metagame in Tvz. It's not difficult to understand why they would test going back to it.. if it does shift to Terran imbalance (which would surprise me) they can always ratchet it back but I really don't see it happening - but only time will tell. Having said all this - it might be interesting to see the Ro32 code S go down without a patch..I'd throw a hefty wager that Cure, TY and Reality would all be eliminated.. even perhaps Innovation - Bbyong might get out w some Gangnam and Flash is an extremely solid player so he has a chance as well.. but it really wouldn't surprise me to see only Maru get through.. I do think that there is a big difference between "Code S Player" and "Code S contender". This is not to take anything away from the people who made Code S - this is an absolutely ridiculous task to achieve in terms of difficulty..However, there aren't typically 32 "contenders" - as long as I've been watching Code S I haven't ever seen a tournament start out where you weren't at least pretty sure who would be out in the Ro32.. Again there are always exceptions - even the best players of their race can choke in a group (Zest v Taeja) - not that Taeja isn't capable of beating Zest but anyone who actually watched that series would agree that Zest made a series of uncharacteristic mistakes. This is why using isolated games/tournaments can sometimes be counter-intuitive.
yes i read your post. in your other post you say its proven T is UP and in this post you make up some weird theory to prove that. like i said: TvZ is slighty Z favored, nothing more. not broken at all like it has been in early WoL for T and late WoL for Z. so buffing WMs this much + buffing thors might be way too much and especially wont help PvT much since robo + blink builds will be basically as good and only timewarp nerf wont be even closely enough in PvT.
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On July 26 2014 01:26 Decendos wrote:Show nested quote +On July 26 2014 00:35 DomeGetta wrote:On July 26 2014 00:24 Decendos wrote:On July 26 2014 00:00 DomeGetta wrote:On July 25 2014 23:49 Decendos wrote:On July 25 2014 23:33 DomeGetta wrote:On July 25 2014 23:30 parkufarku wrote:On July 25 2014 20:07 LSN wrote:On July 25 2014 17:10 darkscream wrote:
"hmmm, terran is losing to protoss.. i know, lets just buff their lowest attention/APM unit so it's always good in every situation against everything, since Bio just isn't versatile enough"
--Blizzard The "bio isnt versatile enough" hits the nail. Improvements to SC2 could be implemented with giving terran transitions in and out of mech/air instead of focusing both tvz/p even more on bio mine than it already is. You do realize that he was being sarcastic right? Bio is THE definition of versatile. You have the most cost efficient army & units & production path & upgrade (air and vehicle upgrade), and now you want to be able to tech switch flawlessly too? I think a good start would be increasing the gas cost on medicvacs, and separating air & vehicle upgrades again. Make Stim last a shorter amount of time or reduce the overall DPS of the bio army. T is way less gas-constrained than the other 2 races, so they need fewer bases, but at the same time, their bases are easier to defend & harder to destroy. I would be supportive of tanks getting a 10 damage buff if Bio is nerfed heavily. Medivacs now cost 150 gas, marines now do 1 damage less, stim lasts 75% of current duration, marauder loses 20 health What in the fuck? I can't tell if this a total troll post or someone who is just that delusional.. Do you not realize that the patch is to buff T bc it is proven UP? T is UP in TvP. in TvZ there where much bigger differences in the past (2010 and early 2011 heavily T favored, during BL infestor times heavily Z favored, pre-overseer speedbuff HOTS pretty T favored (not as much as the other 2 times)). right now we see approximately as many T as Z players in GSL Code S next season while there are much more P players. so this patch doesnt do much to help TvP but probably gonna mess up TvZ. we will see about that but i guess especially WMs will be too strong after this patch in TvZ. I disagree in terms of the simplicity of the assumptions - The # of code S players is relevant but a very small indicator in my opinion in terms of overall balance. You have to factor in the total picture, not isolate Tvp and Tvz - if P is OP vs T and Z, and Z is OP vs T - you might still have substantially less Z players than P players independent of TvZ due to Protoss eliminating zergs.. and vice versa for # of T players... the individual matchups themselves even have to be considered - for instance Flash beating Symbol and Hush - based on proleague results Flash is a top 5 Terran in the world.. Symbol and Hush are not in the conversation of their race. Innovation same deal - Ruin and Hurricane would not be considered top 5 Protoss players. Having said that - really in my opinion the ro16 even ro8 results are a better overall indicator.. at this point you typically have the best players of each race squaring off. If a patch doesn't go through before then I would bet my savings you won't see a Terran..maybe Maru will some how get in lol - but we all saw how he did it this past season. if P is OP vs T and Z and Z OP vs T....why would you get about the same amount of T and Z Code S players next season then? also there are other T players than flash and innovation advancing + you forget to mention P and Z players that advance not because of their race but because of skill like sos, rain, drg etc. TvZ definetly wasnt broken and i havent heard pros say so. all there was, was a slight Z favor which might turn into a big T favor after thor and especially mine buff which was over the top imo. and most of all buffing T midgame even more just makes it so that Z has to defensive turtle once again and try to somehow get out mass muta or ultras. blizz shouldve buffed lategame T and help T especially in PvT. Did you read my post? I basically explained exactly how you could get a close to even (though not even) amount of players in code S without the game being balanced. It's hard to answer your question about Tvz being "broken" because that's a pretty vague description - but in terms of it being heavily favored for Z there are plenty of pro players who have said it - not that that makes it relevant whatsoever as pros get paid to WIN the game so I'm not sure why any would honestly say that their race was OP. It's pretty unanimously understood that once Z gets to a critical mass of banelings / mutas there is no real way for the Terran to trade cost effectively and keep up with economy at the same time.. it's very difficult to argue this point. Before the widow-mine nerf this was not the case, there was enough splash to zone out ling/bling/muta a moves so that in the event the game did get to the post -20 min mark the Terran still had a chance to win.. Ultra/Infestor and creep spread mitigate the effect of mines super-late game - not to mention that there is plenty of data that has been analyzed (Post overseer BUFF and Pre Mine NERF) that show a balanced professional metagame in Tvz. It's not difficult to understand why they would test going back to it.. if it does shift to Terran imbalance (which would surprise me) they can always ratchet it back but I really don't see it happening - but only time will tell. Having said all this - it might be interesting to see the Ro32 code S go down without a patch..I'd throw a hefty wager that Cure, TY and Reality would all be eliminated.. even perhaps Innovation - Bbyong might get out w some Gangnam and Flash is an extremely solid player so he has a chance as well.. but it really wouldn't surprise me to see only Maru get through.. I do think that there is a big difference between "Code S Player" and "Code S contender". This is not to take anything away from the people who made Code S - this is an absolutely ridiculous task to achieve in terms of difficulty..However, there aren't typically 32 "contenders" - as long as I've been watching Code S I haven't ever seen a tournament start out where you weren't at least pretty sure who would be out in the Ro32.. Again there are always exceptions - even the best players of their race can choke in a group (Zest v Taeja) - not that Taeja isn't capable of beating Zest but anyone who actually watched that series would agree that Zest made a series of uncharacteristic mistakes. This is why using isolated games/tournaments can sometimes be counter-intuitive. yes i read your post. in your other post you say its proven T is UP and in this post you make up some weird theory to prove that. like i said: TvZ is slighty Z favored, nothing more. not broken at all like it has been in early WoL for T and late WoL for Z. so buffing WMs this much + buffing thors might be way too much and especially wont help PvT much since robo + blink builds will be basically as good and only timewarp nerf wont be even closely enough in PvT.
lol - ok done taking your responses seriously - maybe it's a language barrier thing but doesn't seem to be sinking in. Nobody said it was broken like WOL - just that it was imbalanaced in Z's favor...it's not a weird theory - it's reality - get over it... Thors aren't being buffed they just attack mutas now instead of lings, which if you are a high level player you do anyway.. WMs weren't broken before they were nerfed, period. You are lashing out like a little kid bc you're going to have to micro vs WM again - patch hasn't even gone through yet and already the whining starts.. hopefully this time they'll wait till their is actually some kind of statistical imbalance before nerfing the only unit comp that works in Tvz.
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On July 26 2014 01:42 DomeGetta wrote:Show nested quote +On July 26 2014 01:26 Decendos wrote:On July 26 2014 00:35 DomeGetta wrote:On July 26 2014 00:24 Decendos wrote:On July 26 2014 00:00 DomeGetta wrote:On July 25 2014 23:49 Decendos wrote:On July 25 2014 23:33 DomeGetta wrote:On July 25 2014 23:30 parkufarku wrote:On July 25 2014 20:07 LSN wrote:On July 25 2014 17:10 darkscream wrote:
"hmmm, terran is losing to protoss.. i know, lets just buff their lowest attention/APM unit so it's always good in every situation against everything, since Bio just isn't versatile enough"
--Blizzard The "bio isnt versatile enough" hits the nail. Improvements to SC2 could be implemented with giving terran transitions in and out of mech/air instead of focusing both tvz/p even more on bio mine than it already is. You do realize that he was being sarcastic right? Bio is THE definition of versatile. You have the most cost efficient army & units & production path & upgrade (air and vehicle upgrade), and now you want to be able to tech switch flawlessly too? I think a good start would be increasing the gas cost on medicvacs, and separating air & vehicle upgrades again. Make Stim last a shorter amount of time or reduce the overall DPS of the bio army. T is way less gas-constrained than the other 2 races, so they need fewer bases, but at the same time, their bases are easier to defend & harder to destroy. I would be supportive of tanks getting a 10 damage buff if Bio is nerfed heavily. Medivacs now cost 150 gas, marines now do 1 damage less, stim lasts 75% of current duration, marauder loses 20 health What in the fuck? I can't tell if this a total troll post or someone who is just that delusional.. Do you not realize that the patch is to buff T bc it is proven UP? T is UP in TvP. in TvZ there where much bigger differences in the past (2010 and early 2011 heavily T favored, during BL infestor times heavily Z favored, pre-overseer speedbuff HOTS pretty T favored (not as much as the other 2 times)). right now we see approximately as many T as Z players in GSL Code S next season while there are much more P players. so this patch doesnt do much to help TvP but probably gonna mess up TvZ. we will see about that but i guess especially WMs will be too strong after this patch in TvZ. I disagree in terms of the simplicity of the assumptions - The # of code S players is relevant but a very small indicator in my opinion in terms of overall balance. You have to factor in the total picture, not isolate Tvp and Tvz - if P is OP vs T and Z, and Z is OP vs T - you might still have substantially less Z players than P players independent of TvZ due to Protoss eliminating zergs.. and vice versa for # of T players... the individual matchups themselves even have to be considered - for instance Flash beating Symbol and Hush - based on proleague results Flash is a top 5 Terran in the world.. Symbol and Hush are not in the conversation of their race. Innovation same deal - Ruin and Hurricane would not be considered top 5 Protoss players. Having said that - really in my opinion the ro16 even ro8 results are a better overall indicator.. at this point you typically have the best players of each race squaring off. If a patch doesn't go through before then I would bet my savings you won't see a Terran..maybe Maru will some how get in lol - but we all saw how he did it this past season. if P is OP vs T and Z and Z OP vs T....why would you get about the same amount of T and Z Code S players next season then? also there are other T players than flash and innovation advancing + you forget to mention P and Z players that advance not because of their race but because of skill like sos, rain, drg etc. TvZ definetly wasnt broken and i havent heard pros say so. all there was, was a slight Z favor which might turn into a big T favor after thor and especially mine buff which was over the top imo. and most of all buffing T midgame even more just makes it so that Z has to defensive turtle once again and try to somehow get out mass muta or ultras. blizz shouldve buffed lategame T and help T especially in PvT. Did you read my post? I basically explained exactly how you could get a close to even (though not even) amount of players in code S without the game being balanced. It's hard to answer your question about Tvz being "broken" because that's a pretty vague description - but in terms of it being heavily favored for Z there are plenty of pro players who have said it - not that that makes it relevant whatsoever as pros get paid to WIN the game so I'm not sure why any would honestly say that their race was OP. It's pretty unanimously understood that once Z gets to a critical mass of banelings / mutas there is no real way for the Terran to trade cost effectively and keep up with economy at the same time.. it's very difficult to argue this point. Before the widow-mine nerf this was not the case, there was enough splash to zone out ling/bling/muta a moves so that in the event the game did get to the post -20 min mark the Terran still had a chance to win.. Ultra/Infestor and creep spread mitigate the effect of mines super-late game - not to mention that there is plenty of data that has been analyzed (Post overseer BUFF and Pre Mine NERF) that show a balanced professional metagame in Tvz. It's not difficult to understand why they would test going back to it.. if it does shift to Terran imbalance (which would surprise me) they can always ratchet it back but I really don't see it happening - but only time will tell. Having said all this - it might be interesting to see the Ro32 code S go down without a patch..I'd throw a hefty wager that Cure, TY and Reality would all be eliminated.. even perhaps Innovation - Bbyong might get out w some Gangnam and Flash is an extremely solid player so he has a chance as well.. but it really wouldn't surprise me to see only Maru get through.. I do think that there is a big difference between "Code S Player" and "Code S contender". This is not to take anything away from the people who made Code S - this is an absolutely ridiculous task to achieve in terms of difficulty..However, there aren't typically 32 "contenders" - as long as I've been watching Code S I haven't ever seen a tournament start out where you weren't at least pretty sure who would be out in the Ro32.. Again there are always exceptions - even the best players of their race can choke in a group (Zest v Taeja) - not that Taeja isn't capable of beating Zest but anyone who actually watched that series would agree that Zest made a series of uncharacteristic mistakes. This is why using isolated games/tournaments can sometimes be counter-intuitive. yes i read your post. in your other post you say its proven T is UP and in this post you make up some weird theory to prove that. like i said: TvZ is slighty Z favored, nothing more. not broken at all like it has been in early WoL for T and late WoL for Z. so buffing WMs this much + buffing thors might be way too much and especially wont help PvT much since robo + blink builds will be basically as good and only timewarp nerf wont be even closely enough in PvT. lol - ok done taking your responses seriously - maybe it's a language barrier thing but doesn't seem to be sinking in. Nobody said it was broken like WOL - just that it was imbalanaced in Z's favor...it's not a weird theory - it's reality - get over it... Thors aren't being buffed they just attack mutas now instead of lings, which if you are a high level player you do anyway.. WMs weren't broken before they were nerfed, period. You are lashing out like a little kid bc you're going to have to micro vs WM again - patch hasn't even gone through yet and already the whining starts.. hopefully this time they'll wait till their is actually some kind of statistical imbalance before nerfing the only unit comp that works in Tvz.
its not broken but imbalanced in Zs favor. thats what you say. havent heard any top pros say so. all i heard was Z is slightly favored but far from a real imbalance. also i am playing T since 2 months and having a lot of fun with WMs already so i am not sad about WM buff  and yes WM were broken, thats why TvZ was heavily T favored in the first 6 months or so in TvZ which got a bit better after overseer buffs but it was still slightly T favored after that.
the biggest point you dont seem to understand is that WMs are fine and midgame TvZ is more than fine for T. what T would really need in TvZ but especially in TvP would be a better lategame. that is what you dont seem to get. we can also buff bunker build time and balance the game that way...would still be stupid since it would balance the game but not fix T lategame. just because a MU has 50% winrate doesnt mean its in a good state, see soultrain + archon toilet vs BL infestor PvZ in WoL which made PvZ 50% winrate but absolutely unfun and stupid.
--> dont buff WMs that hard (midgame is fine anyway for T) and buff T lategame to compensate for the weakness there.
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When will the patch be live? I thought it would be live already, but it doesn't seem so.
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On July 26 2014 02:02 Decendos wrote:Show nested quote +On July 26 2014 01:42 DomeGetta wrote:On July 26 2014 01:26 Decendos wrote:On July 26 2014 00:35 DomeGetta wrote:On July 26 2014 00:24 Decendos wrote:On July 26 2014 00:00 DomeGetta wrote:On July 25 2014 23:49 Decendos wrote:On July 25 2014 23:33 DomeGetta wrote:On July 25 2014 23:30 parkufarku wrote:On July 25 2014 20:07 LSN wrote:
[quote]
The "bio isnt versatile enough" hits the nail. Improvements to SC2 could be implemented with giving terran transitions in and out of mech/air instead of focusing both tvz/p even more on bio mine than it already is. You do realize that he was being sarcastic right? Bio is THE definition of versatile. You have the most cost efficient army & units & production path & upgrade (air and vehicle upgrade), and now you want to be able to tech switch flawlessly too? I think a good start would be increasing the gas cost on medicvacs, and separating air & vehicle upgrades again. Make Stim last a shorter amount of time or reduce the overall DPS of the bio army. T is way less gas-constrained than the other 2 races, so they need fewer bases, but at the same time, their bases are easier to defend & harder to destroy. I would be supportive of tanks getting a 10 damage buff if Bio is nerfed heavily. Medivacs now cost 150 gas, marines now do 1 damage less, stim lasts 75% of current duration, marauder loses 20 health What in the fuck? I can't tell if this a total troll post or someone who is just that delusional.. Do you not realize that the patch is to buff T bc it is proven UP? T is UP in TvP. in TvZ there where much bigger differences in the past (2010 and early 2011 heavily T favored, during BL infestor times heavily Z favored, pre-overseer speedbuff HOTS pretty T favored (not as much as the other 2 times)). right now we see approximately as many T as Z players in GSL Code S next season while there are much more P players. so this patch doesnt do much to help TvP but probably gonna mess up TvZ. we will see about that but i guess especially WMs will be too strong after this patch in TvZ. I disagree in terms of the simplicity of the assumptions - The # of code S players is relevant but a very small indicator in my opinion in terms of overall balance. You have to factor in the total picture, not isolate Tvp and Tvz - if P is OP vs T and Z, and Z is OP vs T - you might still have substantially less Z players than P players independent of TvZ due to Protoss eliminating zergs.. and vice versa for # of T players... the individual matchups themselves even have to be considered - for instance Flash beating Symbol and Hush - based on proleague results Flash is a top 5 Terran in the world.. Symbol and Hush are not in the conversation of their race. Innovation same deal - Ruin and Hurricane would not be considered top 5 Protoss players. Having said that - really in my opinion the ro16 even ro8 results are a better overall indicator.. at this point you typically have the best players of each race squaring off. If a patch doesn't go through before then I would bet my savings you won't see a Terran..maybe Maru will some how get in lol - but we all saw how he did it this past season. if P is OP vs T and Z and Z OP vs T....why would you get about the same amount of T and Z Code S players next season then? also there are other T players than flash and innovation advancing + you forget to mention P and Z players that advance not because of their race but because of skill like sos, rain, drg etc. TvZ definetly wasnt broken and i havent heard pros say so. all there was, was a slight Z favor which might turn into a big T favor after thor and especially mine buff which was over the top imo. and most of all buffing T midgame even more just makes it so that Z has to defensive turtle once again and try to somehow get out mass muta or ultras. blizz shouldve buffed lategame T and help T especially in PvT. Did you read my post? I basically explained exactly how you could get a close to even (though not even) amount of players in code S without the game being balanced. It's hard to answer your question about Tvz being "broken" because that's a pretty vague description - but in terms of it being heavily favored for Z there are plenty of pro players who have said it - not that that makes it relevant whatsoever as pros get paid to WIN the game so I'm not sure why any would honestly say that their race was OP. It's pretty unanimously understood that once Z gets to a critical mass of banelings / mutas there is no real way for the Terran to trade cost effectively and keep up with economy at the same time.. it's very difficult to argue this point. Before the widow-mine nerf this was not the case, there was enough splash to zone out ling/bling/muta a moves so that in the event the game did get to the post -20 min mark the Terran still had a chance to win.. Ultra/Infestor and creep spread mitigate the effect of mines super-late game - not to mention that there is plenty of data that has been analyzed (Post overseer BUFF and Pre Mine NERF) that show a balanced professional metagame in Tvz. It's not difficult to understand why they would test going back to it.. if it does shift to Terran imbalance (which would surprise me) they can always ratchet it back but I really don't see it happening - but only time will tell. Having said all this - it might be interesting to see the Ro32 code S go down without a patch..I'd throw a hefty wager that Cure, TY and Reality would all be eliminated.. even perhaps Innovation - Bbyong might get out w some Gangnam and Flash is an extremely solid player so he has a chance as well.. but it really wouldn't surprise me to see only Maru get through.. I do think that there is a big difference between "Code S Player" and "Code S contender". This is not to take anything away from the people who made Code S - this is an absolutely ridiculous task to achieve in terms of difficulty..However, there aren't typically 32 "contenders" - as long as I've been watching Code S I haven't ever seen a tournament start out where you weren't at least pretty sure who would be out in the Ro32.. Again there are always exceptions - even the best players of their race can choke in a group (Zest v Taeja) - not that Taeja isn't capable of beating Zest but anyone who actually watched that series would agree that Zest made a series of uncharacteristic mistakes. This is why using isolated games/tournaments can sometimes be counter-intuitive. yes i read your post. in your other post you say its proven T is UP and in this post you make up some weird theory to prove that. like i said: TvZ is slighty Z favored, nothing more. not broken at all like it has been in early WoL for T and late WoL for Z. so buffing WMs this much + buffing thors might be way too much and especially wont help PvT much since robo + blink builds will be basically as good and only timewarp nerf wont be even closely enough in PvT. lol - ok done taking your responses seriously - maybe it's a language barrier thing but doesn't seem to be sinking in. Nobody said it was broken like WOL - just that it was imbalanaced in Z's favor...it's not a weird theory - it's reality - get over it... Thors aren't being buffed they just attack mutas now instead of lings, which if you are a high level player you do anyway.. WMs weren't broken before they were nerfed, period. You are lashing out like a little kid bc you're going to have to micro vs WM again - patch hasn't even gone through yet and already the whining starts.. hopefully this time they'll wait till their is actually some kind of statistical imbalance before nerfing the only unit comp that works in Tvz. its not broken but imbalanced in Zs favor. thats what you say. havent heard any top pros say so. all i heard was Z is slightly favored but far from a real imbalance. also i am playing T since 2 months and having a lot of fun with WMs already so i am not sad about WM buff and yes WM were broken, thats why TvZ was heavily T favored in the first 6 months or so in TvZ which got a bit better after overseer buffs but it was still slightly T favored after that. the biggest point you dont seem to understand is that WMs are fine and midgame TvZ is more than fine for T. what T would really need in TvZ but especially in TvP would be a better lategame. that is what you dont seem to get. we can also buff bunker build time and balance the game that way...would still be stupid since it would balance the game but not fix T lategame. just because a MU has 50% winrate doesnt mean its in a good state, see soultrain + archon toilet vs BL infestor PvZ in WoL which made PvZ 50% winrate but absolutely unfun and stupid. --> dont buff WMs that hard (midgame is fine anyway for T) and buff T lategame to compensate for the weakness there.
Overseer buff only made things a "bit better"? Seriously, the overseer speed buff really unleashed mass muta since it became so much easier to get detection at far locations (and thus snipe mines). The overseer buff was a huge nerf to mines.
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On July 26 2014 01:02 DomeGetta wrote:
On a totally unrelated note but very related to the subject.. Has anyone ever made an attempt at a Deep Blue for SC2?
I understand the mechanics of building it would be a lot different than for chess.. but I feel like it could probably be done...
People have tried to build AIs for RTS games but it isn't really comparable to chess.
Chess is a game of complete information, disctete turns, and a relatively small number of possible moves per timestep.
A RTS game has incomplete information, continuous time, and billions of possible inputs at any given point in time (even though almost all of them will be pointless).
Every one of those traits makes SC2 incomparably more difficult for a computer than chess. Its like playing poker for chess pieces on a 10000x10000 square grid. (Humans still beat computers at poker BTW).
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On July 26 2014 02:46 r691175002 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 26 2014 01:02 DomeGetta wrote:
On a totally unrelated note but very related to the subject.. Has anyone ever made an attempt at a Deep Blue for SC2?
I understand the mechanics of building it would be a lot different than for chess.. but I feel like it could probably be done... People have tried to build AIs for RTS games but it isn't really comparable to chess. Chess is a game of complete information, disctete turns, and a relatively small number of possible moves per timestep. A RTS game has incomplete information, continuous time, and billions of possible inputs at any given point in time (even though almost all of them will be pointless). Every one of those traits makes SC2 incomparably more difficult for a computer than chess. Its like playing poker for chess pieces on a 10000x10000 square grid. (Humans still beat computers at poker BTW).
Yah I hear you on that - but I still feel like you could feedback info to the program the same way humans do it with scouting..If / then If / then.. all the macro would be easy, the micro as well I feel would be do-able... the thing that would be hard I feel is setting up tactical attacks.. it probably would just try to defend super hard and expand...I'm not sure.. even though I don't think you could make a totally unbeatable program you probably could make something very good and difficult to beat.. ^^
As a starting point you could just model perfectly executed build orders from pro games..and then try to work in the scout/respond aspect..I write software as part of my job I would love to work on something like this lol.
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On July 26 2014 02:36 plogamer wrote:Show nested quote +On July 26 2014 02:02 Decendos wrote:On July 26 2014 01:42 DomeGetta wrote:On July 26 2014 01:26 Decendos wrote:On July 26 2014 00:35 DomeGetta wrote:On July 26 2014 00:24 Decendos wrote:On July 26 2014 00:00 DomeGetta wrote:On July 25 2014 23:49 Decendos wrote:On July 25 2014 23:33 DomeGetta wrote:On July 25 2014 23:30 parkufarku wrote:
[quote]
You do realize that he was being sarcastic right? Bio is THE definition of versatile. You have the most cost efficient army & units & production path & upgrade (air and vehicle upgrade), and now you want to be able to tech switch flawlessly too?
I think a good start would be increasing the gas cost on medicvacs, and separating air & vehicle upgrades again. Make Stim last a shorter amount of time or reduce the overall DPS of the bio army. T is way less gas-constrained than the other 2 races, so they need fewer bases, but at the same time, their bases are easier to defend & harder to destroy.
I would be supportive of tanks getting a 10 damage buff if Bio is nerfed heavily. Medivacs now cost 150 gas, marines now do 1 damage less, stim lasts 75% of current duration, marauder loses 20 health What in the fuck? I can't tell if this a total troll post or someone who is just that delusional.. Do you not realize that the patch is to buff T bc it is proven UP? T is UP in TvP. in TvZ there where much bigger differences in the past (2010 and early 2011 heavily T favored, during BL infestor times heavily Z favored, pre-overseer speedbuff HOTS pretty T favored (not as much as the other 2 times)). right now we see approximately as many T as Z players in GSL Code S next season while there are much more P players. so this patch doesnt do much to help TvP but probably gonna mess up TvZ. we will see about that but i guess especially WMs will be too strong after this patch in TvZ. I disagree in terms of the simplicity of the assumptions - The # of code S players is relevant but a very small indicator in my opinion in terms of overall balance. You have to factor in the total picture, not isolate Tvp and Tvz - if P is OP vs T and Z, and Z is OP vs T - you might still have substantially less Z players than P players independent of TvZ due to Protoss eliminating zergs.. and vice versa for # of T players... the individual matchups themselves even have to be considered - for instance Flash beating Symbol and Hush - based on proleague results Flash is a top 5 Terran in the world.. Symbol and Hush are not in the conversation of their race. Innovation same deal - Ruin and Hurricane would not be considered top 5 Protoss players. Having said that - really in my opinion the ro16 even ro8 results are a better overall indicator.. at this point you typically have the best players of each race squaring off. If a patch doesn't go through before then I would bet my savings you won't see a Terran..maybe Maru will some how get in lol - but we all saw how he did it this past season. if P is OP vs T and Z and Z OP vs T....why would you get about the same amount of T and Z Code S players next season then? also there are other T players than flash and innovation advancing + you forget to mention P and Z players that advance not because of their race but because of skill like sos, rain, drg etc. TvZ definetly wasnt broken and i havent heard pros say so. all there was, was a slight Z favor which might turn into a big T favor after thor and especially mine buff which was over the top imo. and most of all buffing T midgame even more just makes it so that Z has to defensive turtle once again and try to somehow get out mass muta or ultras. blizz shouldve buffed lategame T and help T especially in PvT. Did you read my post? I basically explained exactly how you could get a close to even (though not even) amount of players in code S without the game being balanced. It's hard to answer your question about Tvz being "broken" because that's a pretty vague description - but in terms of it being heavily favored for Z there are plenty of pro players who have said it - not that that makes it relevant whatsoever as pros get paid to WIN the game so I'm not sure why any would honestly say that their race was OP. It's pretty unanimously understood that once Z gets to a critical mass of banelings / mutas there is no real way for the Terran to trade cost effectively and keep up with economy at the same time.. it's very difficult to argue this point. Before the widow-mine nerf this was not the case, there was enough splash to zone out ling/bling/muta a moves so that in the event the game did get to the post -20 min mark the Terran still had a chance to win.. Ultra/Infestor and creep spread mitigate the effect of mines super-late game - not to mention that there is plenty of data that has been analyzed (Post overseer BUFF and Pre Mine NERF) that show a balanced professional metagame in Tvz. It's not difficult to understand why they would test going back to it.. if it does shift to Terran imbalance (which would surprise me) they can always ratchet it back but I really don't see it happening - but only time will tell. Having said all this - it might be interesting to see the Ro32 code S go down without a patch..I'd throw a hefty wager that Cure, TY and Reality would all be eliminated.. even perhaps Innovation - Bbyong might get out w some Gangnam and Flash is an extremely solid player so he has a chance as well.. but it really wouldn't surprise me to see only Maru get through.. I do think that there is a big difference between "Code S Player" and "Code S contender". This is not to take anything away from the people who made Code S - this is an absolutely ridiculous task to achieve in terms of difficulty..However, there aren't typically 32 "contenders" - as long as I've been watching Code S I haven't ever seen a tournament start out where you weren't at least pretty sure who would be out in the Ro32.. Again there are always exceptions - even the best players of their race can choke in a group (Zest v Taeja) - not that Taeja isn't capable of beating Zest but anyone who actually watched that series would agree that Zest made a series of uncharacteristic mistakes. This is why using isolated games/tournaments can sometimes be counter-intuitive. yes i read your post. in your other post you say its proven T is UP and in this post you make up some weird theory to prove that. like i said: TvZ is slighty Z favored, nothing more. not broken at all like it has been in early WoL for T and late WoL for Z. so buffing WMs this much + buffing thors might be way too much and especially wont help PvT much since robo + blink builds will be basically as good and only timewarp nerf wont be even closely enough in PvT. lol - ok done taking your responses seriously - maybe it's a language barrier thing but doesn't seem to be sinking in. Nobody said it was broken like WOL - just that it was imbalanaced in Z's favor...it's not a weird theory - it's reality - get over it... Thors aren't being buffed they just attack mutas now instead of lings, which if you are a high level player you do anyway.. WMs weren't broken before they were nerfed, period. You are lashing out like a little kid bc you're going to have to micro vs WM again - patch hasn't even gone through yet and already the whining starts.. hopefully this time they'll wait till their is actually some kind of statistical imbalance before nerfing the only unit comp that works in Tvz. its not broken but imbalanced in Zs favor. thats what you say. havent heard any top pros say so. all i heard was Z is slightly favored but far from a real imbalance. also i am playing T since 2 months and having a lot of fun with WMs already so i am not sad about WM buff and yes WM were broken, thats why TvZ was heavily T favored in the first 6 months or so in TvZ which got a bit better after overseer buffs but it was still slightly T favored after that. the biggest point you dont seem to understand is that WMs are fine and midgame TvZ is more than fine for T. what T would really need in TvZ but especially in TvP would be a better lategame. that is what you dont seem to get. we can also buff bunker build time and balance the game that way...would still be stupid since it would balance the game but not fix T lategame. just because a MU has 50% winrate doesnt mean its in a good state, see soultrain + archon toilet vs BL infestor PvZ in WoL which made PvZ 50% winrate but absolutely unfun and stupid. --> dont buff WMs that hard (midgame is fine anyway for T) and buff T lategame to compensate for the weakness there. Overseer buff only made things a "bit better"? Seriously, the overseer speed buff really unleashed mass muta since it became so much easier to get detection at far locations (and thus snipe mines). The overseer buff was a huge nerf to mines.
Haha yeah - "I'm playing T for 2 months" = A zerg who offraces some, who can't micro vs Widow Mines and is crying/whining about the patch. "The biggest point" that you are totally pulling out of your ass is that widowmines are not fine and can be a moved by max ling/bane armies - and your point about late game also makes no sense because mara/mine/mede is the normal comp off bio based openings vs ultra late game tech.. so yes, it is also a buff to late game.
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On July 25 2014 23:30 parkufarku wrote:Show nested quote +On July 25 2014 20:07 LSN wrote:On July 25 2014 17:10 darkscream wrote:
"hmmm, terran is losing to protoss.. i know, lets just buff their lowest attention/APM unit so it's always good in every situation against everything, since Bio just isn't versatile enough"
--Blizzard The "bio isnt versatile enough" hits the nail. Improvements to SC2 could be implemented with giving terran transitions in and out of mech/air instead of focusing both tvz/p even more on bio mine than it already is. You do realize that he was being sarcastic right? Bio is THE definition of versatile. You have the most cost efficient army & units & production path & upgrade (air and vehicle upgrade), and now you want to be able to tech switch flawlessly too? I think a good start would be increasing the gas cost on medicvacs, and separating air & vehicle upgrades again. Make Stim last a shorter amount of time or reduce the overall DPS of the bio army. T is way less gas-constrained than the other 2 races, so they need fewer bases, but at the same time, their bases are easier to defend & harder to destroy. I would be supportive of tanks getting a 10 damage buff if Bio is nerfed heavily. Medivacs now cost 150 gas, marines now do 1 damage less, stim lasts 75% of current duration, marauder loses 20 health
You really are the funny guy.
Have you ever see a competitive match ?
Nerfing only one of your proposition would destroy the terran race for good.
Btw, bio is more cost effective but there is probably no game where the terran win more ressource lost than the opponent. But he contrary is in nno way true.
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And for people saying Z aren't way stronger than T :
On July 24 2014 15:32 Ghanburighan wrote:While we're looking at winrates, here's another Aligulac list: ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/6zp9WrK.png) Just looking at winrates, PvT is rather even, and so is PvZ but TvZ has gone down to the dumps again. On the other hand, the population numbers are the worst ever for Terran. It looks like T has a constant of around 100 games every period, but with the added number of games (last period has 1799 games, this one 3866), only Z and P seem to have added more mirrors. So there are 4.8x as many ZvZ as TvT, and 3.8x as many PvP as TvT. This also means that P has once again caught up with Z populations, last period it was 1.3 ZvZ for every 1 PvP, now it's 1.2. Show nested quote +On July 10 2014 20:15 Ghanburighan wrote:Here's the latest Aligulac list (114) with pretty new formatting. ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/280eKxW.png) With regard to P, nothing seems to have changed. Just like the first half of June, P>T by a slight margin, P and Z are roughly even, and there are roughly the same number of PvP MU's in tournaments. Z did worse in this period, while it was at >55% against T last time, it's now even in winrates. More importantly, looking at populations, while there were 5x more ZvZ than TvT, and 2x more ZvZ than PvP, then now there are only roughly 3x more ZvZ than TvT, and a just over a fourth more ZvZ than PvPs. This suggests that Z is doing worse, and it's mainly doing worse against T (note that worse doesn't imply that they're doing bad, this is a comparison with the previous period). Looking more closely at the population numbers, there appear to have been fewer games, the total for 114 is 1835 and for 113 it was 2379. So for the previous 113 list Z MUs made up 72% of all MUs. P MUs made up 55% (note that the overlap is due to the fact that P plays Z...). T MUs made up 36% of all MUs. In this list, 114, Z MUs made up 65% of all MUs. P MUs made up 57%. T MUs made up 42% of all MUs. So Z is down 7%, P is up 2% and T is up 6%. (with rounding) The previous lists can be found below. On June 29 2014 05:42 Ghanburighan wrote:Sorry for the delay, here's Aligulac 113.. The previous list(s) can be found at the end of this post. ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/Oc9x1bJ.png) Looking at the winrates, P has extended its advantage over T, P has also gained some ground back against Z, yet TvZ has strongly turned in Z favour once gain (it's as bad as it was before the hellbat patch in April). Population numbers are also worse. Previously there were 4x more ZvZ games than TvT games, now there are more than 5x. PvP's have not changed in number, so it's mostly just less terrans and more zergs getting further that's creating the problem. All in all, balance-wise this was a very depressing period. On June 12 2014 15:32 Ghanburighan wrote:Time to post the latest Aligulac list. The previous list can be found at the end of this post. ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/pKEYuFe.png) Regarding winrates, PvT has fluctuated back from T having a slight advantage to P having a minuscule advantage. In PvZ, P has also improved although it hasn't caught up with Z. On the other hand, T has improved in the TvZ MU (110 had 45%, 111 had 47%) and its even now. In terms of populations measured in numbers of mirror MUs, there's virtually no change compared to the last list, the proportions are very close. This means that there is no repopulation of terrans according to these numbers and there are 4 times fewer TvTs than ZvZs. As T MUs have even winrates, there cannot really be a repopulation with these numbers. Furthermore, a word of caution, I'd say that this was one of the best periods for Terran in a long while, Taeja won Hsc 9 (where Z had a comparatively weaker list of players), Maru is tearing up Code S, and Innovation is kicking as in teamleagues and the Dragon cup. I don't think they contributed overly much to the final winrates (their games are still a small fraction of all the games), but taken together they did contribute significantly. If they don't keep their winning ways going, winrates can plunge below 50% again. And, their wins aren't helping repopulate in any way. On May 29 2014 02:45 Ghanburighan wrote:Uploading the latest Aligulac list. ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/wem39XJ.png) Unfortunately there was a TvZ patch in the middle of the period, so those numbers could be anything now. But it looks like P is doing worse against Z in terms of winrate. But the population ratios haven't changed compared to the last list, though. It's still roughly 1/4 TvT, 2/4 PvP and 1/1 ZvZ.
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On July 26 2014 02:07 TurboMaN wrote:
When will the patch be live? I thought it would be live already, but it doesn't seem so.
would like to know it too t.t
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On July 26 2014 05:02 SonGoku wrote:Show nested quote +On July 26 2014 02:07 TurboMaN wrote:
When will the patch be live? I thought it would be live already, but it doesn't seem so. would like to know it too t.t
Now live in SEA
http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/blog/14933073
I'd expect it to go live within a day or so for the other regions
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I must not have been following this patch closely enough because it was a huge damn surprise to me when I read just now that the widow mine splash radius doesn't have tiers anymore. 40(+40 shield) for the full radius is completely insane to me o_O
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On July 26 2014 05:51 KrazyTrumpet wrote:
I must not have been following this patch closely enough because it was a huge damn surprise to me when I read just now that the widow mine splash radius doesn't have tiers anymore. 40(+40 shield) for the full radius is completely insane to me o_O
I mean, what good are zealots if you can't just blindly a-move them??
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IMO the stalker was not designed with Kespa level blink micro in mind and is currently too strong because of that. Blizzard should think about having it do 10 flat damage since Immortals are already good against armored units and come out shortly after stalkers anyway.
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On July 26 2014 06:14 Cheren wrote:
IMO the stalker was not designed with Kespa level blink micro in mind and is currently too strong because of that. Blizzard should think about having it do 10 flat damage since Immortals are already good against armored units and come out shortly after stalkers anyway.
No, we shouldn't nerf the one mechanic that Protoss has that rewards the user for better micro.
Instead, we should re-design more units to do the same for all 3 races.
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On July 26 2014 06:16 Lunareste wrote:Show nested quote +On July 26 2014 06:14 Cheren wrote:
IMO the stalker was not designed with Kespa level blink micro in mind and is currently too strong because of that. Blizzard should think about having it do 10 flat damage since Immortals are already good against armored units and come out shortly after stalkers anyway. No, we shouldn't nerf the one mechanic that Protoss has that rewards the user for better micro. Instead, we should re-design more units to do the same for all 3 races.
That's true, but only when you realistically can add countermicro to the unit.
So for instance if one player can micro unit X really well and become a lot more cost-effective. Then the enemy player should be able to remicro agianst the micro of unit X in order to neutralize the micro as well (assuming he is good).
The issue with blink-stalkers is that the micro is one-sided. If the protoss has really good micro he becomes a lot more cost-effective, however it's almost impossible for the enemy to have any countermicro plays against it (at least in the earlier midgame).
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On July 26 2014 06:09 Popkiller wrote:Show nested quote +On July 26 2014 05:51 KrazyTrumpet wrote:
I must not have been following this patch closely enough because it was a huge damn surprise to me when I read just now that the widow mine splash radius doesn't have tiers anymore. 40(+40 shield) for the full radius is completely insane to me o_O I mean, what good are zealots if you can't just blindly a-move them??
...what?
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Knew it was live the moment a WM killed more than one ling, i was right. Hell yes.
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EPT
