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On July 25 2014 20:07 Faust852 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 25 2014 17:10 darkscream wrote:
"hmmm, terran is losing to protoss.. i know, lets just buff their lowest attention/APM unit so it's always good in every situation against everything, since Bio just isn't versatile enough"
--Blizzard I guess you have reading comprehension problem since the patch was targeted for TvZ and not TvP.
This patch is for both TvZ and TvP.
"[...] returns the Widow Mine to how it used to be against Zerg, and provides big improvements against Protoss armies in the mid and late game."
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On July 25 2014 20:07 LSN wrote:Show nested quote +On July 25 2014 17:10 darkscream wrote:
"hmmm, terran is losing to protoss.. i know, lets just buff their lowest attention/APM unit so it's always good in every situation against everything, since Bio just isn't versatile enough"
--Blizzard The "bio isnt versatile enough" hits the nail. Improvements to SC2 could be implemented with giving terran transitions in and out of mech/air instead of focusing both tvz/p even more on bio mine than it already is.
You do realize that he was being sarcastic right? Bio is THE definition of versatile. You have the most cost efficient army & units & production path & upgrade (air and vehicle upgrade), and now you want to be able to tech switch flawlessly too?
I think a good start would be increasing the gas cost on medicvacs, and separating air & vehicle upgrades again. Make Stim last a shorter amount of time or reduce the overall DPS of the bio army. T is way less gas-constrained than the other 2 races, so they need fewer bases, but at the same time, their bases are easier to defend & harder to destroy.
I would be supportive of tanks getting a 10 damage buff if Bio is nerfed heavily. Medivacs now cost 150 gas, marines now do 1 damage less, stim lasts 75% of current duration, marauder loses 20 health
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On July 25 2014 23:30 parkufarku wrote:Show nested quote +On July 25 2014 20:07 LSN wrote:On July 25 2014 17:10 darkscream wrote:
"hmmm, terran is losing to protoss.. i know, lets just buff their lowest attention/APM unit so it's always good in every situation against everything, since Bio just isn't versatile enough"
--Blizzard The "bio isnt versatile enough" hits the nail. Improvements to SC2 could be implemented with giving terran transitions in and out of mech/air instead of focusing both tvz/p even more on bio mine than it already is. You do realize that he was being sarcastic right? Bio is THE definition of versatile. You have the most cost efficient army & units & production path & upgrade (air and vehicle upgrade), and now you want to be able to tech switch flawlessly too? I think a good start would be increasing the gas cost on medicvacs, and separating air & vehicle upgrades again. Make Stim last a shorter amount of time or reduce the overall DPS of the bio army. T is way less gas-constrained than the other 2 races, so they need fewer bases, but at the same time, their bases are easier to defend & harder to destroy. I would be supportive of tanks getting a 10 damage buff if Bio is nerfed heavily. Medivacs now cost 150 gas, marines now do 1 damage less, stim lasts 75% of current duration, marauder loses 20 health
What in the fuck?
I can't tell if this a total troll post or someone who is just that delusional..
Do you not realize that the patch is to buff T bc it is proven UP?
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On July 25 2014 17:10 darkscream wrote:
"hmmm, terran is losing to protoss.. i know, lets just buff their lowest attention/APM unit so it's always good in every situation against everything, since Bio just isn't versatile enough"
--Blizzard
This is an absolutely hilarious statement coming from a Protoss player - who's most intensive APM unit requires spam left clicking instant storm on packs of units. And yeah - the fact that widow mines are low apm definitely make them good late game against colossus..bc they will DEFINITELY fire off vs units that have triple the range.. sick argument.
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On July 24 2014 23:39 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2014 23:30 DomeGetta wrote:On July 24 2014 05:12 Sapphire.lux wrote:On July 24 2014 00:12 MockHamill wrote:
I would have preferred:
1) Tanks do more damage.
2) Factories become less expensive.
3) Immortals get less shields.
4) Tempest supply increased to 6.
This change, while helping bio, does not do much for mech.
I have basically stopped watching pro games because mech is not viable at pro level outside of TvT. As a mech player I learn nothing from watching 300+ APM Koreans running around with bio. I have seen it for years and it is simply boring. Ha, i'm in the same boat. These latest changes make me not watch SC2 any more since bio+WM is boring to see in every game and any mech helping patch seems very unlikely for at least a few months now. Even the hope is gone lol This is so obviously not a a true statement. This is definitely either a closet zerg or someone who can't use bio/mine because it requires micro and wants DK to make Terran like Protoss. Please explain how turtle mech is more entertaining to watch than something that involves multiple armies at different locations on the map / drops / intensive micro / multitask. Fastest way to kill SC2 in my opinion is to force Terrans to turtle into 1 hour long mech games.. I'm obsessed with starcraft and I don't have the patience to PLAY those games let alone watch them rofl. Patience is an extremely undervalued skill.
Not from a viewer's perspective who wants to watch more than 1 game of a series of a tournament in an evening ;p
See Major vs. Violet on Habitat WCS for good ex
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On July 25 2014 23:33 DomeGetta wrote:Show nested quote +On July 25 2014 23:30 parkufarku wrote:On July 25 2014 20:07 LSN wrote:On July 25 2014 17:10 darkscream wrote:
"hmmm, terran is losing to protoss.. i know, lets just buff their lowest attention/APM unit so it's always good in every situation against everything, since Bio just isn't versatile enough"
--Blizzard The "bio isnt versatile enough" hits the nail. Improvements to SC2 could be implemented with giving terran transitions in and out of mech/air instead of focusing both tvz/p even more on bio mine than it already is. You do realize that he was being sarcastic right? Bio is THE definition of versatile. You have the most cost efficient army & units & production path & upgrade (air and vehicle upgrade), and now you want to be able to tech switch flawlessly too? I think a good start would be increasing the gas cost on medicvacs, and separating air & vehicle upgrades again. Make Stim last a shorter amount of time or reduce the overall DPS of the bio army. T is way less gas-constrained than the other 2 races, so they need fewer bases, but at the same time, their bases are easier to defend & harder to destroy. I would be supportive of tanks getting a 10 damage buff if Bio is nerfed heavily. Medivacs now cost 150 gas, marines now do 1 damage less, stim lasts 75% of current duration, marauder loses 20 health What in the fuck? I can't tell if this a total troll post or someone who is just that delusional.. Do you not realize that the patch is to buff T bc it is proven UP?
T is UP in TvP. in TvZ there where much bigger differences in the past (2010 and early 2011 heavily T favored, during BL infestor times heavily Z favored, pre-overseer speedbuff HOTS pretty T favored (not as much as the other 2 times)). right now we see approximately as many T as Z players in GSL Code S next season while there are much more P players.
so this patch doesnt do much to help TvP but probably gonna mess up TvZ. we will see about that but i guess especially WMs will be too strong after this patch in TvZ.
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I think the influence of the patch will be only minimal. Its just that the new mine (just like the old) will punish mistakes by zerg more, just like movement mistakes by terran vs banelings get punished. Versus a good zerg this won't happen much, unless you are TaeJa and can force mistakes. But maybe I (with my terran bias  ) should reserve my words for later, when we have a better vision on the effects of this patch .
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On July 25 2014 23:49 Decendos wrote:Show nested quote +On July 25 2014 23:33 DomeGetta wrote:On July 25 2014 23:30 parkufarku wrote:On July 25 2014 20:07 LSN wrote:On July 25 2014 17:10 darkscream wrote:
"hmmm, terran is losing to protoss.. i know, lets just buff their lowest attention/APM unit so it's always good in every situation against everything, since Bio just isn't versatile enough"
--Blizzard The "bio isnt versatile enough" hits the nail. Improvements to SC2 could be implemented with giving terran transitions in and out of mech/air instead of focusing both tvz/p even more on bio mine than it already is. You do realize that he was being sarcastic right? Bio is THE definition of versatile. You have the most cost efficient army & units & production path & upgrade (air and vehicle upgrade), and now you want to be able to tech switch flawlessly too? I think a good start would be increasing the gas cost on medicvacs, and separating air & vehicle upgrades again. Make Stim last a shorter amount of time or reduce the overall DPS of the bio army. T is way less gas-constrained than the other 2 races, so they need fewer bases, but at the same time, their bases are easier to defend & harder to destroy. I would be supportive of tanks getting a 10 damage buff if Bio is nerfed heavily. Medivacs now cost 150 gas, marines now do 1 damage less, stim lasts 75% of current duration, marauder loses 20 health What in the fuck? I can't tell if this a total troll post or someone who is just that delusional.. Do you not realize that the patch is to buff T bc it is proven UP? T is UP in TvP. in TvZ there where much bigger differences in the past (2010 and early 2011 heavily T favored, during BL infestor times heavily Z favored, pre-overseer speedbuff HOTS pretty T favored (not as much as the other 2 times)). right now we see approximately as many T as Z players in GSL Code S next season while there are much more P players. so this patch doesnt do much to help TvP but probably gonna mess up TvZ. we will see about that but i guess especially WMs will be too strong after this patch in TvZ.
I disagree in terms of the simplicity of the assumptions - The # of code S players is relevant but a very small indicator in my opinion in terms of overall balance. You have to factor in the total picture, not isolate Tvp and Tvz - if P is OP vs T and Z, and Z is OP vs T - you might still have substantially less Z players than P players independent of TvZ due to Protoss eliminating zergs.. and vice versa for # of T players... the individual matchups themselves even have to be considered - for instance Flash beating Symbol and Hush - based on proleague results Flash is a top 5 Terran in the world.. Symbol and Hush are not in the conversation of their race. Innovation same deal - Ruin and Hurricane would not be considered top 5 Protoss players.
Having said that - really in my opinion the ro16 even ro8 results are a better overall indicator.. at this point you typically have the best players of each race squaring off. If a patch doesn't go through before then I would bet my savings you won't see a Terran..maybe Maru will some how get in lol - but we all saw how he did it this past season.
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On July 26 2014 00:00 DomeGetta wrote:
maybe Maru will some how get in lol - but we all saw how he did it this past season.
Yes, cheese cheese cheese :D!
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On July 26 2014 00:00 DomeGetta wrote:Show nested quote +On July 25 2014 23:49 Decendos wrote:On July 25 2014 23:33 DomeGetta wrote:On July 25 2014 23:30 parkufarku wrote:On July 25 2014 20:07 LSN wrote:On July 25 2014 17:10 darkscream wrote:
"hmmm, terran is losing to protoss.. i know, lets just buff their lowest attention/APM unit so it's always good in every situation against everything, since Bio just isn't versatile enough"
--Blizzard The "bio isnt versatile enough" hits the nail. Improvements to SC2 could be implemented with giving terran transitions in and out of mech/air instead of focusing both tvz/p even more on bio mine than it already is. You do realize that he was being sarcastic right? Bio is THE definition of versatile. You have the most cost efficient army & units & production path & upgrade (air and vehicle upgrade), and now you want to be able to tech switch flawlessly too? I think a good start would be increasing the gas cost on medicvacs, and separating air & vehicle upgrades again. Make Stim last a shorter amount of time or reduce the overall DPS of the bio army. T is way less gas-constrained than the other 2 races, so they need fewer bases, but at the same time, their bases are easier to defend & harder to destroy. I would be supportive of tanks getting a 10 damage buff if Bio is nerfed heavily. Medivacs now cost 150 gas, marines now do 1 damage less, stim lasts 75% of current duration, marauder loses 20 health What in the fuck? I can't tell if this a total troll post or someone who is just that delusional.. Do you not realize that the patch is to buff T bc it is proven UP? T is UP in TvP. in TvZ there where much bigger differences in the past (2010 and early 2011 heavily T favored, during BL infestor times heavily Z favored, pre-overseer speedbuff HOTS pretty T favored (not as much as the other 2 times)). right now we see approximately as many T as Z players in GSL Code S next season while there are much more P players. so this patch doesnt do much to help TvP but probably gonna mess up TvZ. we will see about that but i guess especially WMs will be too strong after this patch in TvZ. I disagree in terms of the simplicity of the assumptions - The # of code S players is relevant but a very small indicator in my opinion in terms of overall balance. You have to factor in the total picture, not isolate Tvp and Tvz - if P is OP vs T and Z, and Z is OP vs T - you might still have substantially less Z players than P players independent of TvZ due to Protoss eliminating zergs.. and vice versa for # of T players... the individual matchups themselves even have to be considered - for instance Flash beating Symbol and Hush - based on proleague results Flash is a top 5 Terran in the world.. Symbol and Hush are not in the conversation of their race. Innovation same deal - Ruin and Hurricane would not be considered top 5 Protoss players. Having said that - really in my opinion the ro16 even ro8 results are a better overall indicator.. at this point you typically have the best players of each race squaring off. If a patch doesn't go through before then I would bet my savings you won't see a Terran..maybe Maru will some how get in lol - but we all saw how he did it this past season.
if P is OP vs T and Z and Z OP vs T....why would you get about the same amount of T and Z Code S players next season then? also there are other T players than flash and innovation advancing + you forget to mention P and Z players that advance not because of their race but because of skill like sos, rain, drg etc.
TvZ definetly wasnt broken and i havent heard pros say so. all there was, was a slight Z favor which might turn into a big T favor after thor and especially mine buff which was over the top imo. and most of all buffing T midgame even more just makes it so that Z has to defensive turtle once again and try to somehow get out mass muta or ultras. blizz shouldve buffed lategame T and help T especially in PvT.
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On July 25 2014 23:33 DomeGetta wrote:Show nested quote +On July 25 2014 23:30 parkufarku wrote:On July 25 2014 20:07 LSN wrote:On July 25 2014 17:10 darkscream wrote:
"hmmm, terran is losing to protoss.. i know, lets just buff their lowest attention/APM unit so it's always good in every situation against everything, since Bio just isn't versatile enough"
--Blizzard The "bio isnt versatile enough" hits the nail. Improvements to SC2 could be implemented with giving terran transitions in and out of mech/air instead of focusing both tvz/p even more on bio mine than it already is. You do realize that he was being sarcastic right? Bio is THE definition of versatile. You have the most cost efficient army & units & production path & upgrade (air and vehicle upgrade), and now you want to be able to tech switch flawlessly too? I think a good start would be increasing the gas cost on medicvacs, and separating air & vehicle upgrades again. Make Stim last a shorter amount of time or reduce the overall DPS of the bio army. T is way less gas-constrained than the other 2 races, so they need fewer bases, but at the same time, their bases are easier to defend & harder to destroy. I would be supportive of tanks getting a 10 damage buff if Bio is nerfed heavily. Medivacs now cost 150 gas, marines now do 1 damage less, stim lasts 75% of current duration, marauder loses 20 health What in the fuck? I can't tell if this a total troll post or someone who is just that delusional.. Do you not realize that the patch is to buff T bc it is proven UP?
That guy must be trolling, or demonstrates complete lack of understanding of the game. Usually what you'd see on Bnet forums, and in all cases you just need a click to see their league which explains everything.
Just read his posts on page 23 and then palm your face...
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On July 26 2014 00:00 DomeGetta wrote:Show nested quote +On July 25 2014 23:49 Decendos wrote:On July 25 2014 23:33 DomeGetta wrote:On July 25 2014 23:30 parkufarku wrote:On July 25 2014 20:07 LSN wrote:On July 25 2014 17:10 darkscream wrote:
"hmmm, terran is losing to protoss.. i know, lets just buff their lowest attention/APM unit so it's always good in every situation against everything, since Bio just isn't versatile enough"
--Blizzard The "bio isnt versatile enough" hits the nail. Improvements to SC2 could be implemented with giving terran transitions in and out of mech/air instead of focusing both tvz/p even more on bio mine than it already is. You do realize that he was being sarcastic right? Bio is THE definition of versatile. You have the most cost efficient army & units & production path & upgrade (air and vehicle upgrade), and now you want to be able to tech switch flawlessly too? I think a good start would be increasing the gas cost on medicvacs, and separating air & vehicle upgrades again. Make Stim last a shorter amount of time or reduce the overall DPS of the bio army. T is way less gas-constrained than the other 2 races, so they need fewer bases, but at the same time, their bases are easier to defend & harder to destroy. I would be supportive of tanks getting a 10 damage buff if Bio is nerfed heavily. Medivacs now cost 150 gas, marines now do 1 damage less, stim lasts 75% of current duration, marauder loses 20 health What in the fuck? I can't tell if this a total troll post or someone who is just that delusional.. Do you not realize that the patch is to buff T bc it is proven UP? T is UP in TvP. in TvZ there where much bigger differences in the past (2010 and early 2011 heavily T favored, during BL infestor times heavily Z favored, pre-overseer speedbuff HOTS pretty T favored (not as much as the other 2 times)). right now we see approximately as many T as Z players in GSL Code S next season while there are much more P players. so this patch doesnt do much to help TvP but probably gonna mess up TvZ. we will see about that but i guess especially WMs will be too strong after this patch in TvZ. I disagree in terms of the simplicity of the assumptions - The # of code S players is relevant but a very small indicator in my opinion in terms of overall balance. You have to factor in the total picture, not isolate Tvp and Tvz - if P is OP vs T and Z, and Z is OP vs T - you might still have substantially less Z players than P players independent of TvZ due to Protoss eliminating zergs.. and vice versa for # of T players... the individual matchups themselves even have to be considered - for instance Flash beating Symbol and Hush - based on proleague results Flash is a top 5 Terran in the world.. Symbol and Hush are not in the conversation of their race. Innovation same deal - Ruin and Hurricane would not be considered top 5 Protoss players. Having said that - really in my opinion the ro16 even ro8 results are a better overall indicator.. at this point you typically have the best players of each race squaring off. If a patch doesn't go through before then I would bet my savings you won't see a Terran..maybe Maru will some how get in lol - but we all saw how he did it this past season.
You are right that the reason why we see that "few" Zergs in Code S this season is due to Protoss beating the shit out of them (79%winrate P>Z) in Code A.
However, since the TvZ winrate is at a perfect 50% this season and by simply looking at how the matches played out, it is pretty clear that it wasn't Terran profiting from Zergs weakness, but Protoss (who by the way had 59% winrate against Terran).
While your example with Flash is true, it's an isolated example. On the same page we also had DRG beating the shit out of Turn while top-Zergs like Roro, Life, Hydra and ByuL all ended up with negative results against (stronger and not so strong) Terrans.
At the end of the day, we should treat it as mostly the top-quantile of Ts, Ps and Zs who played in Code A and that this is the toplevel of Starcraft. It's not like we had a bunch of nonames for Zerg, while players like Turn, Cure or skyhigh are not (Korean) championship quality.
TvZ is surely not massively imbalanced. We have been in a periode pretty comparable to how it was in early HotS in terms of winrates, with an average of 50-55% for Zerg.
On the flipside however, I also have to say, just like how the mine nerf didn't break the game. Just like we see these near balanced winrates with the nerfed mine, exactly like that we shouldn't expect the mine rebuff to break the game. It's not such a massive deal as people make it out to be and has never been. The height of Terran winrates mid-2013 was like 55% and the height of Zerg winrates in the last months was 55%. In between we had phases of 50%, with stronger and with weaker mines.
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On July 26 2014 00:24 Decendos wrote:Show nested quote +On July 26 2014 00:00 DomeGetta wrote:On July 25 2014 23:49 Decendos wrote:On July 25 2014 23:33 DomeGetta wrote:On July 25 2014 23:30 parkufarku wrote:On July 25 2014 20:07 LSN wrote:On July 25 2014 17:10 darkscream wrote:
"hmmm, terran is losing to protoss.. i know, lets just buff their lowest attention/APM unit so it's always good in every situation against everything, since Bio just isn't versatile enough"
--Blizzard The "bio isnt versatile enough" hits the nail. Improvements to SC2 could be implemented with giving terran transitions in and out of mech/air instead of focusing both tvz/p even more on bio mine than it already is. You do realize that he was being sarcastic right? Bio is THE definition of versatile. You have the most cost efficient army & units & production path & upgrade (air and vehicle upgrade), and now you want to be able to tech switch flawlessly too? I think a good start would be increasing the gas cost on medicvacs, and separating air & vehicle upgrades again. Make Stim last a shorter amount of time or reduce the overall DPS of the bio army. T is way less gas-constrained than the other 2 races, so they need fewer bases, but at the same time, their bases are easier to defend & harder to destroy. I would be supportive of tanks getting a 10 damage buff if Bio is nerfed heavily. Medivacs now cost 150 gas, marines now do 1 damage less, stim lasts 75% of current duration, marauder loses 20 health What in the fuck? I can't tell if this a total troll post or someone who is just that delusional.. Do you not realize that the patch is to buff T bc it is proven UP? T is UP in TvP. in TvZ there where much bigger differences in the past (2010 and early 2011 heavily T favored, during BL infestor times heavily Z favored, pre-overseer speedbuff HOTS pretty T favored (not as much as the other 2 times)). right now we see approximately as many T as Z players in GSL Code S next season while there are much more P players. so this patch doesnt do much to help TvP but probably gonna mess up TvZ. we will see about that but i guess especially WMs will be too strong after this patch in TvZ. I disagree in terms of the simplicity of the assumptions - The # of code S players is relevant but a very small indicator in my opinion in terms of overall balance. You have to factor in the total picture, not isolate Tvp and Tvz - if P is OP vs T and Z, and Z is OP vs T - you might still have substantially less Z players than P players independent of TvZ due to Protoss eliminating zergs.. and vice versa for # of T players... the individual matchups themselves even have to be considered - for instance Flash beating Symbol and Hush - based on proleague results Flash is a top 5 Terran in the world.. Symbol and Hush are not in the conversation of their race. Innovation same deal - Ruin and Hurricane would not be considered top 5 Protoss players. Having said that - really in my opinion the ro16 even ro8 results are a better overall indicator.. at this point you typically have the best players of each race squaring off. If a patch doesn't go through before then I would bet my savings you won't see a Terran..maybe Maru will some how get in lol - but we all saw how he did it this past season. if P is OP vs T and Z and Z OP vs T....why would you get about the same amount of T and Z Code S players next season then?
When you're talking about 32 people, it could be for a million reasons, and you should know that too...
Then again I agree with you that I haven't seen zerg overperform vs terran in the very recent past, so the concern may be legitimate. We'll see.
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On July 26 2014 00:24 Decendos wrote:Show nested quote +On July 26 2014 00:00 DomeGetta wrote:On July 25 2014 23:49 Decendos wrote:On July 25 2014 23:33 DomeGetta wrote:On July 25 2014 23:30 parkufarku wrote:On July 25 2014 20:07 LSN wrote:On July 25 2014 17:10 darkscream wrote:
"hmmm, terran is losing to protoss.. i know, lets just buff their lowest attention/APM unit so it's always good in every situation against everything, since Bio just isn't versatile enough"
--Blizzard The "bio isnt versatile enough" hits the nail. Improvements to SC2 could be implemented with giving terran transitions in and out of mech/air instead of focusing both tvz/p even more on bio mine than it already is. You do realize that he was being sarcastic right? Bio is THE definition of versatile. You have the most cost efficient army & units & production path & upgrade (air and vehicle upgrade), and now you want to be able to tech switch flawlessly too? I think a good start would be increasing the gas cost on medicvacs, and separating air & vehicle upgrades again. Make Stim last a shorter amount of time or reduce the overall DPS of the bio army. T is way less gas-constrained than the other 2 races, so they need fewer bases, but at the same time, their bases are easier to defend & harder to destroy. I would be supportive of tanks getting a 10 damage buff if Bio is nerfed heavily. Medivacs now cost 150 gas, marines now do 1 damage less, stim lasts 75% of current duration, marauder loses 20 health What in the fuck? I can't tell if this a total troll post or someone who is just that delusional.. Do you not realize that the patch is to buff T bc it is proven UP? T is UP in TvP. in TvZ there where much bigger differences in the past (2010 and early 2011 heavily T favored, during BL infestor times heavily Z favored, pre-overseer speedbuff HOTS pretty T favored (not as much as the other 2 times)). right now we see approximately as many T as Z players in GSL Code S next season while there are much more P players. so this patch doesnt do much to help TvP but probably gonna mess up TvZ. we will see about that but i guess especially WMs will be too strong after this patch in TvZ. I disagree in terms of the simplicity of the assumptions - The # of code S players is relevant but a very small indicator in my opinion in terms of overall balance. You have to factor in the total picture, not isolate Tvp and Tvz - if P is OP vs T and Z, and Z is OP vs T - you might still have substantially less Z players than P players independent of TvZ due to Protoss eliminating zergs.. and vice versa for # of T players... the individual matchups themselves even have to be considered - for instance Flash beating Symbol and Hush - based on proleague results Flash is a top 5 Terran in the world.. Symbol and Hush are not in the conversation of their race. Innovation same deal - Ruin and Hurricane would not be considered top 5 Protoss players. Having said that - really in my opinion the ro16 even ro8 results are a better overall indicator.. at this point you typically have the best players of each race squaring off. If a patch doesn't go through before then I would bet my savings you won't see a Terran..maybe Maru will some how get in lol - but we all saw how he did it this past season. if P is OP vs T and Z and Z OP vs T....why would you get about the same amount of T and Z Code S players next season then? also there are other T players than flash and innovation advancing + you forget to mention P and Z players that advance not because of their race but because of skill like sos, rain, drg etc. TvZ definetly wasnt broken and i havent heard pros say so. all there was, was a slight Z favor which might turn into a big T favor after thor and especially mine buff which was over the top imo. and most of all buffing T midgame even more just makes it so that Z has to defensive turtle once again and try to somehow get out mass muta or ultras. blizz shouldve buffed lategame T and help T especially in PvT.
Did you read my post? I basically explained exactly how you could get a close to even (though not even) amount of players in code S without the game being balanced. It's hard to answer your question about Tvz being "broken" because that's a pretty vague description - but in terms of it being heavily favored for Z there are plenty of pro players who have said it - not that that makes it relevant whatsoever as pros get paid to WIN the game so I'm not sure why any would honestly say that their race was OP. It's pretty unanimously understood that once Z gets to a critical mass of banelings / mutas there is no real way for the Terran to trade cost effectively and keep up with economy at the same time.. it's very difficult to argue this point. Before the widow-mine nerf this was not the case, there was enough splash to zone out ling/bling/muta a moves so that in the event the game did get to the post -20 min mark the Terran still had a chance to win.. Ultra/Infestor and creep spread mitigate the effect of mines super-late game - not to mention that there is plenty of data that has been analyzed (Post overseer BUFF and Pre Mine NERF) that show a balanced professional metagame in Tvz. It's not difficult to understand why they would test going back to it.. if it does shift to Terran imbalance (which would surprise me) they can always ratchet it back but I really don't see it happening - but only time will tell.
Having said all this - it might be interesting to see the Ro32 code S go down without a patch..I'd throw a hefty wager that Cure, TY and Reality would all be eliminated.. even perhaps Innovation - Bbyong might get out w some Gangnam and Flash is an extremely solid player so he has a chance as well.. but it really wouldn't surprise me to see only Maru get through.. I do think that there is a big difference between "Code S Player" and "Code S contender". This is not to take anything away from the people who made Code S - this is an absolutely ridiculous task to achieve in terms of difficulty..However, there aren't typically 32 "contenders" - as long as I've been watching Code S I haven't ever seen a tournament start out where you weren't at least pretty sure who would be out in the Ro32..
Again there are always exceptions - even the best players of their race can choke in a group (Zest v Taeja) - not that Taeja isn't capable of beating Zest but anyone who actually watched that series would agree that Zest made a series of uncharacteristic mistakes. This is why using isolated games/tournaments can sometimes be counter-intuitive.
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Is there any gif have been made wich is showing the difference of widow mine before-/ and after the patch?
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On July 25 2014 02:22 Sapphire.lux wrote:Show nested quote +On July 25 2014 01:48 Big J wrote:On July 25 2014 01:37 Sapphire.lux wrote:On July 25 2014 00:48 Big J wrote:On July 25 2014 00:19 gneGne wrote:On July 24 2014 23:39 Big J wrote:On July 24 2014 23:30 DomeGetta wrote:On July 24 2014 05:12 Sapphire.lux wrote:On July 24 2014 00:12 MockHamill wrote:
I would have preferred:
1) Tanks do more damage.
2) Factories become less expensive.
3) Immortals get less shields.
4) Tempest supply increased to 6.
This change, while helping bio, does not do much for mech.
I have basically stopped watching pro games because mech is not viable at pro level outside of TvT. As a mech player I learn nothing from watching 300+ APM Koreans running around with bio. I have seen it for years and it is simply boring. Ha, i'm in the same boat. These latest changes make me not watch SC2 any more since bio+WM is boring to see in every game and any mech helping patch seems very unlikely for at least a few months now. Even the hope is gone lol This is so obviously not a a true statement. This is definitely either a closet zerg or someone who can't use bio/mine because it requires micro and wants DK to make Terran like Protoss. Please explain how turtle mech is more entertaining to watch than something that involves multiple armies at different locations on the map / drops / intensive micro / multitask. Fastest way to kill SC2 in my opinion is to force Terrans to turtle into 1 hour long mech games.. I'm obsessed with starcraft and I don't have the patience to PLAY those games let alone watch them rofl. Patience is an extremely undervalued skill. Yes, but when we are talking "game design" I like the fact that all races can be played at a different pace. It is exciting to watch a slower/teching player (as is the case with mech, robo/templar, zerg in general) get absolutely dismantled by an aggressive player (bio, gateway/stargate, usually banes) , just as its fun to watch a slower/teching player hold attack after attack building up to a powerful potentially game ending attack. Both aggressive and defensive styles are necessary to make this game exciting. It gets boring however when both opt to go for the same strategy slower/teching based style, for example mech (and some air toss builds?) vs swarm host based play but this seems to be more of an exception in most games. So yeah, I think the most important issue right now is to change the pace in these match ups. Probably by changing the swarm host, as it was originally meant to be on the offensive/siege up against defensive positions? It's not really that these defensive styles are boring in itself. It's rather that the units - as you say the SH is the epitome of this - are either just very boring, or kind of in a weird place balancewise - like the Raven or the BC - or plainly unexciting to engage with - Colossus, Tempest, Ultralisk come to mind. I think what you optimally can get out those styles, is a tug-o-war scenario with slow sieges forward and people trying to find weak points and thereby overextending or breaking positions + a lot of harass in the form of units like hellions or zerglings that are a byproduct of the gasintense other units. But that requires other units than the SH*, who just does not allow the opponent to attack and players need to get punished for not trying to win the tug-o-war, instead of being rewarded with more PDDs, Yamatos and Seekers that give you free value**. *and also partly the Viper; people often overgo the fact that it is Vipers that are largely responsible for Terrans not being able to move out and just siege when in danger, because "just sieging" is as good as insta-gging against blinding clouds ** that's something they really got right with the Viper. Since it is easy to refill the the energy if you play well, you want to use that energy as often as possible. Vipers are great IMO as they force Tank spreading. Vipers + SHs on the other hand is terrible because by spreading Tanks you start trading with free units, and that's bad. There are some games from early HOTS where MVP goes mech and Zerg, don't know who it was, used Viper roach hidra and we saw those "mile long" siege lines ones more. Slowly pushing towards Zerg with spaced out Tanks and Hellions. For a few weeks i though Blizz finally did it, but alas the SH was discovered TT I'm not to sure about this. I think it is cool to see macro game slow pushes. But I think it's very hard to push against anything Viper related even when no SHs are around. Sure you can do the extreme spread/slow pushes - and after 2mins of preemtive spreading and leapfrogging you are half-way through the map and the Zerg is countering and you pack everything and go home again.  I think the game you are talking about was Dimaga vs Mvp on Newkirk. That was quite fun, but not only through the Mech buffs, but in general with the much better understanding of the Mech style and the discovery of Ravens these kinds of attacks from the Zerg just don't work. On the flipside, Mvp also cannot really push given how spread he has to be, which means to me that the Zerg should lose when trying that kind of stuff, but it will take a long time, since he shouldn't engage offensively... MVP vs Stephano + Show Spoiler +The Raven and SH are the worst things to have happen to mech TvZ IMO. The game above is what the general look of the MU should be like.
About fun mech in TvZ, we had a great game today from Bbyong. I think it once again shows that without SHs and Ravens mech can be action packed and a lot of fun. Why doesn't Blizzard just do something about these 2 units already so we can have more of that? TT
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On a totally unrelated note but very related to the subject.. Has anyone ever made an attempt at a Deep Blue for SC2?
I understand the mechanics of building it would be a lot different than for chess.. but I feel like it could probably be done...
This would be a pretty sweet answer to the balance questions... and it would be awesome to see top pros fight it lol.
Only downside would be the meta would be figured out for you sort of.. and then the possibility of it turning into Skynet and terminator ;p
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On July 25 2014 23:52 SatedSC2 wrote:
I don't know why people talk about Terran versatility as if Protoss has any versatility. Protoss can't go Skytoss any more than Terran can go Mech/Skyterran...
#BuffTheCarrier
Both cant go skybuild true, however the reason is pretty obivous......
Protoss 1249124124 builds
Terran 1 build.
Protoss Units that are useless in the MU? Tempest/Carrier
Terran units that are useless in the MU? Tanks/Thors/Banshees/Hellions/BC's/Ravens/.
Protoss Strategies: Blink all in, Collsus, Fast Templer, Fast third, etc.......
Terran strategies, Drop at 12 min.
Make sense?
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On July 25 2014 23:52 SatedSC2 wrote:
I don't know why people talk about Terran versatility as if Protoss has any versatility. Protoss can't go Skytoss any more than Terran can go Mech/Skyterran...
#BuffTheCarrier
I see Oracles daily, Tempests completely destroy any Mech/BC attempt and Phoenixes/Void Rays have much more utility in PvT than Banshees, Ravens and Battlecruisers will ever have in TvP.
Haven't seen a lot of Carriers, although they are kinda like a Siege Tank in the sense that they only shine when you have a critical number of them. (at which point they devastate everything except maybe mass 3/3 Marine if they don't have ground support)
It's a shame because I really like Banshees as a unit and Cloak Banshee was my standard opening back in WoL.
It kept Protoss at home and without the threat of Oracles, MSC and Blink it was a stable opener.
Since HotS I have not seen a single Banshee or Battlecruiser in TvP, aside from maybe a Mech attempt.
Granted, straight up Skytoss would likely lose to mass Marine, but Skytoss has much more viability than Skyterran or Mech currently has.
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