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On July 24 2014 23:39 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2014 23:30 DomeGetta wrote:On July 24 2014 05:12 Sapphire.lux wrote:On July 24 2014 00:12 MockHamill wrote:
I would have preferred:
1) Tanks do more damage.
2) Factories become less expensive.
3) Immortals get less shields.
4) Tempest supply increased to 6.
This change, while helping bio, does not do much for mech.
I have basically stopped watching pro games because mech is not viable at pro level outside of TvT. As a mech player I learn nothing from watching 300+ APM Koreans running around with bio. I have seen it for years and it is simply boring. Ha, i'm in the same boat. These latest changes make me not watch SC2 any more since bio+WM is boring to see in every game and any mech helping patch seems very unlikely for at least a few months now. Even the hope is gone lol This is so obviously not a a true statement. This is definitely either a closet zerg or someone who can't use bio/mine because it requires micro and wants DK to make Terran like Protoss. Please explain how turtle mech is more entertaining to watch than something that involves multiple armies at different locations on the map / drops / intensive micro / multitask. Fastest way to kill SC2 in my opinion is to force Terrans to turtle into 1 hour long mech games.. I'm obsessed with starcraft and I don't have the patience to PLAY those games let alone watch them rofl. Patience is an extremely undervalued skill.
Yes, but when we are talking "game design" I like the fact that all races can be played at a different pace. It is exciting to watch a slower/teching player (as is the case with mech, robo/templar, zerg in general) get absolutely dismantled by an aggressive player (bio, gateway/stargate, usually banes) , just as its fun to watch a slower/teching player hold attack after attack building up to a powerful potentially game ending attack. Both aggressive and defensive styles are necessary to make this game exciting. It gets boring however when both opt to go for the same strategy slower/teching based style, for example mech (and some air toss builds?) vs swarm host based play but this seems to be more of an exception in most games. So yeah, I think the most important issue right now is to change the pace in these match ups. Probably by changing the swarm host, as it was originally meant to be on the offensive/siege up against defensive positions?
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I was away from the internet for a month a came back to this. How is it that the thread is not full of outrage? This buffs widow mines to an absurd extend, doesn't it? It doesn't matter that "Terran weak, halp!" when they buff the unit that was already strong before ... Can please someone explain to me in understandable terms how this patch is acceptable to anyone?
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On July 25 2014 00:19 gneGne wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2014 23:39 Big J wrote:On July 24 2014 23:30 DomeGetta wrote:On July 24 2014 05:12 Sapphire.lux wrote:On July 24 2014 00:12 MockHamill wrote:
I would have preferred:
1) Tanks do more damage.
2) Factories become less expensive.
3) Immortals get less shields.
4) Tempest supply increased to 6.
This change, while helping bio, does not do much for mech.
I have basically stopped watching pro games because mech is not viable at pro level outside of TvT. As a mech player I learn nothing from watching 300+ APM Koreans running around with bio. I have seen it for years and it is simply boring. Ha, i'm in the same boat. These latest changes make me not watch SC2 any more since bio+WM is boring to see in every game and any mech helping patch seems very unlikely for at least a few months now. Even the hope is gone lol This is so obviously not a a true statement. This is definitely either a closet zerg or someone who can't use bio/mine because it requires micro and wants DK to make Terran like Protoss. Please explain how turtle mech is more entertaining to watch than something that involves multiple armies at different locations on the map / drops / intensive micro / multitask. Fastest way to kill SC2 in my opinion is to force Terrans to turtle into 1 hour long mech games.. I'm obsessed with starcraft and I don't have the patience to PLAY those games let alone watch them rofl. Patience is an extremely undervalued skill. Yes, but when we are talking "game design" I like the fact that all races can be played at a different pace. It is exciting to watch a slower/teching player (as is the case with mech, robo/templar, zerg in general) get absolutely dismantled by an aggressive player (bio, gateway/stargate, usually banes) , just as its fun to watch a slower/teching player hold attack after attack building up to a powerful potentially game ending attack. Both aggressive and defensive styles are necessary to make this game exciting. It gets boring however when both opt to go for the same strategy slower/teching based style, for example mech (and some air toss builds?) vs swarm host based play but this seems to be more of an exception in most games. So yeah, I think the most important issue right now is to change the pace in these match ups. Probably by changing the swarm host, as it was originally meant to be on the offensive/siege up against defensive positions?
It's not really that these defensive styles are boring in itself. It's rather that the units - as you say the SH is the epitome of this - are either just very boring, or kind of in a weird place balancewise - like the Raven or the BC - or plainly unexciting to engage with - Colossus, Tempest, Ultralisk come to mind.
I think what you optimally can get out those styles, is a tug-o-war scenario with slow sieges forward and people trying to find weak points and thereby overextending or breaking positions + a lot of harass in the form of units like hellions or zerglings that are a byproduct of the gasintense other units.
But that requires other units than the SH*, who just does not allow the opponent to attack and players need to get punished for not trying to win the tug-o-war, instead of being rewarded with more PDDs, Yamatos and Seekers that give you free value**.
*and also partly the Viper; people often overgo the fact that it is Vipers that are largely responsible for Terrans not being able to move out and just siege when in danger, because "just sieging" is as good as insta-gging against blinding clouds
** that's something they really got right with the Viper. Since it is easy to refill the the energy if you play well, you want to use that energy as often as possible.
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On July 25 2014 00:36 opisska wrote:
I was away from the internet for a month a came back to this. How is it that the thread is not full of outrage? This buffs widow mines to an absurd extend, doesn't it? It doesn't matter that "Terran weak, halp!" when they buff the unit that was already strong before ... Can please someone explain to me in understandable terms how this patch is acceptable to anyone?
It's not; Blizzard buffed Terran when they are already really strong at the moment. A lot of the T posters on this thread are biased against their race and want the buffs so they claim "it was necessary" One T poster on this thread suggested warp gate reverting back to gateway after 3 uses lol.
Might as well give each Widow Mine the ability to shoot a nuke and make gateway units un-upgradeable. While we're at it, make Protoss and Zerg start with 1 worker in the beginning of the game too. This way, no one can keep denying the problems. Well..actually, even at that point, I wouldn't be surprised if they asked for more T buffs seeing how biased some posters are.
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On July 25 2014 00:36 opisska wrote:
I was away from the internet for a month a came back to this. How is it that the thread is not full of outrage? This buffs widow mines to an absurd extend, doesn't it? It doesn't matter that "Terran weak, halp!" when they buff the unit that was already strong before ... Can please someone explain to me in understandable terms how this patch is acceptable to anyone?
Because ZvT wasn't even broken when the mine patch occured - even blizzard said so -, and for ZvT the mine just gets restored to its old status.
While in TvP the mine wasn't really strong at that time, so it is probably not going to break the game. And even when it does, the solution to nerf the +shield is very simple.
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On July 25 2014 00:00 submarine wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2014 22:14 deacon.frost wrote:Yeah, Chargelot with 3 armor is surely BASIC gateway unit. Stalkers without Blink are trash against bio once the grenades kick in. Basic gw units are trash, that's why protoss has so strong splash damage on higher tears and that's why protoss has charge and blink upgrades... and even then healed bio squad is better than gateway T1 units of the same cost, unless there is a higher tier unit present(usually templar). That's why drops without templar tech are so scary you have to have plenty blink stalkers ready... but yeah, they are strong and powerful  I mean, terran with +3/+3 has a pretty scary units as well, because +3 bio is considered unbeatable in TvZ, so where's the problem? The same stupid example as +3 zealot... Toss production is cheap and fast compared to terran while the units are more on the expensive side. Comparing equally expensive armies is very missleading in this case. You always should look what a race can have on the field at certain timings. And who considers +3 bio to be unbeatable? A few "hype casters" maybe, when there is a downtime in the game and they need something to talk about. I have seen enough +2 LBM armies roll over +3 bio to know this generalization is BS.
Reactor = zerg-speed production
Terran units are on the expensive side? LOL. Last time I checked, a MMM army with widow mines was WAYYYYYY cheaper than gateway units mixed in with high tech T3 P units like Colossus, HT, Immortals.
Nothing is unbeatable but +3 bio is incredibly cost efficient and strong, seeing how marines deal insane DPS.
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On July 25 2014 00:36 opisska wrote:
I was away from the internet for a month a came back to this. How is it that the thread is not full of outrage? This buffs widow mines to an absurd extend, doesn't it? It doesn't matter that "Terran weak, halp!" when they buff the unit that was already strong before ... Can please someone explain to me in understandable terms how this patch is acceptable to anyone?
It's not totally outrageous. Mine buff could be a bit big given that tanks and hellbats were buffed in the meantime, but T definitely needed a little boost in TvZ. And Time Warp nerf was long overdue. I'd have preferred a lesser widow mine buff but hey, let's trust DK for once, maybe this time it won't end up with a T domination of post ranged queen or speed oracles proportion...
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On July 25 2014 00:52 parkufarku wrote:Show nested quote +On July 25 2014 00:00 submarine wrote:On July 24 2014 22:14 deacon.frost wrote:Yeah, Chargelot with 3 armor is surely BASIC gateway unit. Stalkers without Blink are trash against bio once the grenades kick in. Basic gw units are trash, that's why protoss has so strong splash damage on higher tears and that's why protoss has charge and blink upgrades... and even then healed bio squad is better than gateway T1 units of the same cost, unless there is a higher tier unit present(usually templar). That's why drops without templar tech are so scary you have to have plenty blink stalkers ready... but yeah, they are strong and powerful I mean, terran with +3/+3 has a pretty scary units as well, because +3 bio is considered unbeatable in TvZ, so where's the problem? The same stupid example as +3 zealot... Toss production is cheap and fast compared to terran while the units are more on the expensive side. Comparing equally expensive armies is very missleading in this case. You always should look what a race can have on the field at certain timings. And who considers +3 bio to be unbeatable? A few "hype casters" maybe, when there is a downtime in the game and they need something to talk about. I have seen enough +2 LBM armies roll over +3 bio to know this generalization is BS. Reactor = zerg-speed production Terran units are on the expensive side? LOL. Last time I checked, a MMM army with widow mines was WAYYYYYY cheaper than gateway units mixed in with high tech T3 P units like Colossus, HT, Immortals. Nothing is unbeatable but +3 bio is incredibly cost efficient and strong, seeing how marines deal insane DPS.
You compare reactors to zerg burst production / larva mechanic??
Then you talk about +3 marines which is completely negated by +3 armor upgrade. People talk about 3/3 in tvz so much because zerg gets to hive and 3/3 later than terran, giving a large window of upgrade advantage, it is not relevant to pvt.
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On July 25 2014 00:48 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On July 25 2014 00:19 gneGne wrote:On July 24 2014 23:39 Big J wrote:On July 24 2014 23:30 DomeGetta wrote:On July 24 2014 05:12 Sapphire.lux wrote:On July 24 2014 00:12 MockHamill wrote:
I would have preferred:
1) Tanks do more damage.
2) Factories become less expensive.
3) Immortals get less shields.
4) Tempest supply increased to 6.
This change, while helping bio, does not do much for mech.
I have basically stopped watching pro games because mech is not viable at pro level outside of TvT. As a mech player I learn nothing from watching 300+ APM Koreans running around with bio. I have seen it for years and it is simply boring. Ha, i'm in the same boat. These latest changes make me not watch SC2 any more since bio+WM is boring to see in every game and any mech helping patch seems very unlikely for at least a few months now. Even the hope is gone lol This is so obviously not a a true statement. This is definitely either a closet zerg or someone who can't use bio/mine because it requires micro and wants DK to make Terran like Protoss. Please explain how turtle mech is more entertaining to watch than something that involves multiple armies at different locations on the map / drops / intensive micro / multitask. Fastest way to kill SC2 in my opinion is to force Terrans to turtle into 1 hour long mech games.. I'm obsessed with starcraft and I don't have the patience to PLAY those games let alone watch them rofl. Patience is an extremely undervalued skill. Yes, but when we are talking "game design" I like the fact that all races can be played at a different pace. It is exciting to watch a slower/teching player (as is the case with mech, robo/templar, zerg in general) get absolutely dismantled by an aggressive player (bio, gateway/stargate, usually banes) , just as its fun to watch a slower/teching player hold attack after attack building up to a powerful potentially game ending attack. Both aggressive and defensive styles are necessary to make this game exciting. It gets boring however when both opt to go for the same strategy slower/teching based style, for example mech (and some air toss builds?) vs swarm host based play but this seems to be more of an exception in most games. So yeah, I think the most important issue right now is to change the pace in these match ups. Probably by changing the swarm host, as it was originally meant to be on the offensive/siege up against defensive positions? It's not really that these defensive styles are boring in itself. It's rather that the units - as you say the SH is the epitome of this - are either just very boring, or kind of in a weird place balancewise - like the Raven or the BC - or plainly unexciting to engage with - Colossus, Tempest, Ultralisk come to mind. I think what you optimally can get out those styles, is a tug-o-war scenario with slow sieges forward and people trying to find weak points and thereby overextending or breaking positions + a lot of harass in the form of units like hellions or zerglings that are a byproduct of the gasintense other units. But that requires other units than the SH*, who just does not allow the opponent to attack and players need to get punished for not trying to win the tug-o-war, instead of being rewarded with more PDDs, Yamatos and Seekers that give you free value**. *and also partly the Viper; people often overgo the fact that it is Vipers that are largely responsible for Terrans not being able to move out and just siege when in danger, because "just sieging" is as good as insta-gging against blinding clouds ** that's something they really got right with the Viper. Since it is easy to refill the the energy if you play well, you want to use that energy as often as possible.
Vipers are great IMO as they force Tank spreading. Vipers + SHs on the other hand is terrible because by spreading Tanks you start trading with free units, and that's bad.
There are some games from early HOTS where MVP goes mech and Zerg, don't know who it was, used Viper roach hidra and we saw those "mile long" siege lines ones more. Slowly pushing towards Zerg with spaced out Tanks and Hellions.
For a few weeks i though Blizz finally did it, but alas the SH was discovered TT
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On July 25 2014 01:37 Sapphire.lux wrote:Show nested quote +On July 25 2014 00:48 Big J wrote:On July 25 2014 00:19 gneGne wrote:On July 24 2014 23:39 Big J wrote:On July 24 2014 23:30 DomeGetta wrote:On July 24 2014 05:12 Sapphire.lux wrote:On July 24 2014 00:12 MockHamill wrote:
I would have preferred:
1) Tanks do more damage.
2) Factories become less expensive.
3) Immortals get less shields.
4) Tempest supply increased to 6.
This change, while helping bio, does not do much for mech.
I have basically stopped watching pro games because mech is not viable at pro level outside of TvT. As a mech player I learn nothing from watching 300+ APM Koreans running around with bio. I have seen it for years and it is simply boring. Ha, i'm in the same boat. These latest changes make me not watch SC2 any more since bio+WM is boring to see in every game and any mech helping patch seems very unlikely for at least a few months now. Even the hope is gone lol This is so obviously not a a true statement. This is definitely either a closet zerg or someone who can't use bio/mine because it requires micro and wants DK to make Terran like Protoss. Please explain how turtle mech is more entertaining to watch than something that involves multiple armies at different locations on the map / drops / intensive micro / multitask. Fastest way to kill SC2 in my opinion is to force Terrans to turtle into 1 hour long mech games.. I'm obsessed with starcraft and I don't have the patience to PLAY those games let alone watch them rofl. Patience is an extremely undervalued skill. Yes, but when we are talking "game design" I like the fact that all races can be played at a different pace. It is exciting to watch a slower/teching player (as is the case with mech, robo/templar, zerg in general) get absolutely dismantled by an aggressive player (bio, gateway/stargate, usually banes) , just as its fun to watch a slower/teching player hold attack after attack building up to a powerful potentially game ending attack. Both aggressive and defensive styles are necessary to make this game exciting. It gets boring however when both opt to go for the same strategy slower/teching based style, for example mech (and some air toss builds?) vs swarm host based play but this seems to be more of an exception in most games. So yeah, I think the most important issue right now is to change the pace in these match ups. Probably by changing the swarm host, as it was originally meant to be on the offensive/siege up against defensive positions? It's not really that these defensive styles are boring in itself. It's rather that the units - as you say the SH is the epitome of this - are either just very boring, or kind of in a weird place balancewise - like the Raven or the BC - or plainly unexciting to engage with - Colossus, Tempest, Ultralisk come to mind. I think what you optimally can get out those styles, is a tug-o-war scenario with slow sieges forward and people trying to find weak points and thereby overextending or breaking positions + a lot of harass in the form of units like hellions or zerglings that are a byproduct of the gasintense other units. But that requires other units than the SH*, who just does not allow the opponent to attack and players need to get punished for not trying to win the tug-o-war, instead of being rewarded with more PDDs, Yamatos and Seekers that give you free value**. *and also partly the Viper; people often overgo the fact that it is Vipers that are largely responsible for Terrans not being able to move out and just siege when in danger, because "just sieging" is as good as insta-gging against blinding clouds ** that's something they really got right with the Viper. Since it is easy to refill the the energy if you play well, you want to use that energy as often as possible. Vipers are great IMO as they force Tank spreading. Vipers + SHs on the other hand is terrible because by spreading Tanks you start trading with free units, and that's bad. There are some games from early HOTS where MVP goes mech and Zerg, don't know who it was, used Viper roach hidra and we saw those "mile long" siege lines ones more. Slowly pushing towards Zerg with spaced out Tanks and Hellions. For a few weeks i though Blizz finally did it, but alas the SH was discovered TT
I'm not to sure about this. I think it is cool to see macro game slow pushes. But I think it's very hard to push against anything Viper related even when no SHs are around. Sure you can do the extreme spread/slow pushes - and after 2mins of preemtive spreading and leapfrogging you are half-way through the map and the Zerg is countering and you pack everything and go home again. 
I think the game you are talking about was Dimaga vs Mvp on Newkirk. That was quite fun, but not only through the Mech buffs, but in general with the much better understanding of the Mech style and the discovery of Ravens these kinds of attacks from the Zerg just don't work. On the flipside, Mvp also cannot really push given how spread he has to be, which means to me that the Zerg should lose when trying that kind of stuff, but it will take a long time, since he shouldn't engage offensively...
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So when does the patch go live?
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On July 25 2014 01:48 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On July 25 2014 01:37 Sapphire.lux wrote:On July 25 2014 00:48 Big J wrote:On July 25 2014 00:19 gneGne wrote:On July 24 2014 23:39 Big J wrote:On July 24 2014 23:30 DomeGetta wrote:On July 24 2014 05:12 Sapphire.lux wrote:On July 24 2014 00:12 MockHamill wrote:
I would have preferred:
1) Tanks do more damage.
2) Factories become less expensive.
3) Immortals get less shields.
4) Tempest supply increased to 6.
This change, while helping bio, does not do much for mech.
I have basically stopped watching pro games because mech is not viable at pro level outside of TvT. As a mech player I learn nothing from watching 300+ APM Koreans running around with bio. I have seen it for years and it is simply boring. Ha, i'm in the same boat. These latest changes make me not watch SC2 any more since bio+WM is boring to see in every game and any mech helping patch seems very unlikely for at least a few months now. Even the hope is gone lol This is so obviously not a a true statement. This is definitely either a closet zerg or someone who can't use bio/mine because it requires micro and wants DK to make Terran like Protoss. Please explain how turtle mech is more entertaining to watch than something that involves multiple armies at different locations on the map / drops / intensive micro / multitask. Fastest way to kill SC2 in my opinion is to force Terrans to turtle into 1 hour long mech games.. I'm obsessed with starcraft and I don't have the patience to PLAY those games let alone watch them rofl. Patience is an extremely undervalued skill. Yes, but when we are talking "game design" I like the fact that all races can be played at a different pace. It is exciting to watch a slower/teching player (as is the case with mech, robo/templar, zerg in general) get absolutely dismantled by an aggressive player (bio, gateway/stargate, usually banes) , just as its fun to watch a slower/teching player hold attack after attack building up to a powerful potentially game ending attack. Both aggressive and defensive styles are necessary to make this game exciting. It gets boring however when both opt to go for the same strategy slower/teching based style, for example mech (and some air toss builds?) vs swarm host based play but this seems to be more of an exception in most games. So yeah, I think the most important issue right now is to change the pace in these match ups. Probably by changing the swarm host, as it was originally meant to be on the offensive/siege up against defensive positions? It's not really that these defensive styles are boring in itself. It's rather that the units - as you say the SH is the epitome of this - are either just very boring, or kind of in a weird place balancewise - like the Raven or the BC - or plainly unexciting to engage with - Colossus, Tempest, Ultralisk come to mind. I think what you optimally can get out those styles, is a tug-o-war scenario with slow sieges forward and people trying to find weak points and thereby overextending or breaking positions + a lot of harass in the form of units like hellions or zerglings that are a byproduct of the gasintense other units. But that requires other units than the SH*, who just does not allow the opponent to attack and players need to get punished for not trying to win the tug-o-war, instead of being rewarded with more PDDs, Yamatos and Seekers that give you free value**. *and also partly the Viper; people often overgo the fact that it is Vipers that are largely responsible for Terrans not being able to move out and just siege when in danger, because "just sieging" is as good as insta-gging against blinding clouds ** that's something they really got right with the Viper. Since it is easy to refill the the energy if you play well, you want to use that energy as often as possible. Vipers are great IMO as they force Tank spreading. Vipers + SHs on the other hand is terrible because by spreading Tanks you start trading with free units, and that's bad. There are some games from early HOTS where MVP goes mech and Zerg, don't know who it was, used Viper roach hidra and we saw those "mile long" siege lines ones more. Slowly pushing towards Zerg with spaced out Tanks and Hellions. For a few weeks i though Blizz finally did it, but alas the SH was discovered TT I'm not to sure about this. I think it is cool to see macro game slow pushes. But I think it's very hard to push against anything Viper related even when no SHs are around. Sure you can do the extreme spread/slow pushes - and after 2mins of preemtive spreading and leapfrogging you are half-way through the map and the Zerg is countering and you pack everything and go home again. I think the game you are talking about was Dimaga vs Mvp on Newkirk. That was quite fun, but not only through the Mech buffs, but in general with the much better understanding of the Mech style and the discovery of Ravens these kinds of attacks from the Zerg just don't work. On the flipside, Mvp also cannot really push given how spread he has to be, which means to me that the Zerg should lose when trying that kind of stuff, but it will take a long time, since he shouldn't engage offensively...
MVP vs Stephano
+ Show Spoiler +
The Raven and SH are the worst things to have happen to mech TvZ IMO. The game above is what the general look of the MU should be like.
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On July 25 2014 00:49 parkufarku wrote:Show nested quote +On July 25 2014 00:36 opisska wrote:
I was away from the internet for a month a came back to this. How is it that the thread is not full of outrage? This buffs widow mines to an absurd extend, doesn't it? It doesn't matter that "Terran weak, halp!" when they buff the unit that was already strong before ... Can please someone explain to me in understandable terms how this patch is acceptable to anyone? It's not; Blizzard buffed Terran when they are already really strong at the moment. A lot of the T posters on this thread are biased against their race and want the buffs so they claim "it was necessary" One T poster on this thread suggested warp gate reverting back to gateway after 3 uses lol. Might as well give each Widow Mine the ability to shoot a nuke and make gateway units un-upgradeable. While we're at it, make Protoss and Zerg start with 1 worker in the beginning of the game too. This way, no one can keep denying the problems. Well..actually, even at that point, I wouldn't be surprised if they asked for more T buffs seeing how biased some posters are.
Just because you struggle doesn't mean that better players do. I think that the smarter Protoss players have come to realize that endless numbers of Protoss winning at tournaments is not good for the game. Unfortunately the buff seems to buff T more against Z than P. It may help against the muta flock though.
So stick your attitude where the sun doesn't shine.
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On July 25 2014 00:52 parkufarku wrote:Show nested quote +On July 25 2014 00:00 submarine wrote:On July 24 2014 22:14 deacon.frost wrote:Yeah, Chargelot with 3 armor is surely BASIC gateway unit. Stalkers without Blink are trash against bio once the grenades kick in. Basic gw units are trash, that's why protoss has so strong splash damage on higher tears and that's why protoss has charge and blink upgrades... and even then healed bio squad is better than gateway T1 units of the same cost, unless there is a higher tier unit present(usually templar). That's why drops without templar tech are so scary you have to have plenty blink stalkers ready... but yeah, they are strong and powerful I mean, terran with +3/+3 has a pretty scary units as well, because +3 bio is considered unbeatable in TvZ, so where's the problem? The same stupid example as +3 zealot... Toss production is cheap and fast compared to terran while the units are more on the expensive side. Comparing equally expensive armies is very missleading in this case. You always should look what a race can have on the field at certain timings. And who considers +3 bio to be unbeatable? A few "hype casters" maybe, when there is a downtime in the game and they need something to talk about. I have seen enough +2 LBM armies roll over +3 bio to know this generalization is BS. Reactor = zerg-speed production Terran units are on the expensive side? LOL. Last time I checked, a MMM army with widow mines was WAYYYYYY cheaper than gateway units mixed in with high tech T3 P units like Colossus, HT, Immortals. Nothing is unbeatable but +3 bio is incredibly cost efficient and strong, seeing how marines deal insane DPS.
Reactor = zerg-speed production
Yeah sure! Are you actually serious?
Toss production is cheap while the units are more on the expensive side. That's how I meant it. Donno how you managed to misunderstand this.
"incredible"; "insane": Stop it. Yeah, there is a window were terran has a upgrade lead in TvZ. That does not really say anything about balance. There are also often "windows" were zerg flies around with a crapton of mutas and kills of so much for free. That is not a balance concern per se. It's just stupid gameplay if you ask me.
And the ultra expensive toss army is also a stupid myth. Once terran adds a decent number of medivas, vikings and ghosts the army values are pretty similar. Good luck fighting a fully developed toss army with MMM+mines.
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On July 25 2014 02:22 Sapphire.lux wrote:Show nested quote +On July 25 2014 01:48 Big J wrote:On July 25 2014 01:37 Sapphire.lux wrote:On July 25 2014 00:48 Big J wrote:On July 25 2014 00:19 gneGne wrote:On July 24 2014 23:39 Big J wrote:On July 24 2014 23:30 DomeGetta wrote:On July 24 2014 05:12 Sapphire.lux wrote:On July 24 2014 00:12 MockHamill wrote:
I would have preferred:
1) Tanks do more damage.
2) Factories become less expensive.
3) Immortals get less shields.
4) Tempest supply increased to 6.
This change, while helping bio, does not do much for mech.
I have basically stopped watching pro games because mech is not viable at pro level outside of TvT. As a mech player I learn nothing from watching 300+ APM Koreans running around with bio. I have seen it for years and it is simply boring. Ha, i'm in the same boat. These latest changes make me not watch SC2 any more since bio+WM is boring to see in every game and any mech helping patch seems very unlikely for at least a few months now. Even the hope is gone lol This is so obviously not a a true statement. This is definitely either a closet zerg or someone who can't use bio/mine because it requires micro and wants DK to make Terran like Protoss. Please explain how turtle mech is more entertaining to watch than something that involves multiple armies at different locations on the map / drops / intensive micro / multitask. Fastest way to kill SC2 in my opinion is to force Terrans to turtle into 1 hour long mech games.. I'm obsessed with starcraft and I don't have the patience to PLAY those games let alone watch them rofl. Patience is an extremely undervalued skill. Yes, but when we are talking "game design" I like the fact that all races can be played at a different pace. It is exciting to watch a slower/teching player (as is the case with mech, robo/templar, zerg in general) get absolutely dismantled by an aggressive player (bio, gateway/stargate, usually banes) , just as its fun to watch a slower/teching player hold attack after attack building up to a powerful potentially game ending attack. Both aggressive and defensive styles are necessary to make this game exciting. It gets boring however when both opt to go for the same strategy slower/teching based style, for example mech (and some air toss builds?) vs swarm host based play but this seems to be more of an exception in most games. So yeah, I think the most important issue right now is to change the pace in these match ups. Probably by changing the swarm host, as it was originally meant to be on the offensive/siege up against defensive positions? It's not really that these defensive styles are boring in itself. It's rather that the units - as you say the SH is the epitome of this - are either just very boring, or kind of in a weird place balancewise - like the Raven or the BC - or plainly unexciting to engage with - Colossus, Tempest, Ultralisk come to mind. I think what you optimally can get out those styles, is a tug-o-war scenario with slow sieges forward and people trying to find weak points and thereby overextending or breaking positions + a lot of harass in the form of units like hellions or zerglings that are a byproduct of the gasintense other units. But that requires other units than the SH*, who just does not allow the opponent to attack and players need to get punished for not trying to win the tug-o-war, instead of being rewarded with more PDDs, Yamatos and Seekers that give you free value**. *and also partly the Viper; people often overgo the fact that it is Vipers that are largely responsible for Terrans not being able to move out and just siege when in danger, because "just sieging" is as good as insta-gging against blinding clouds ** that's something they really got right with the Viper. Since it is easy to refill the the energy if you play well, you want to use that energy as often as possible. Vipers are great IMO as they force Tank spreading. Vipers + SHs on the other hand is terrible because by spreading Tanks you start trading with free units, and that's bad. There are some games from early HOTS where MVP goes mech and Zerg, don't know who it was, used Viper roach hidra and we saw those "mile long" siege lines ones more. Slowly pushing towards Zerg with spaced out Tanks and Hellions. For a few weeks i though Blizz finally did it, but alas the SH was discovered TT I'm not to sure about this. I think it is cool to see macro game slow pushes. But I think it's very hard to push against anything Viper related even when no SHs are around. Sure you can do the extreme spread/slow pushes - and after 2mins of preemtive spreading and leapfrogging you are half-way through the map and the Zerg is countering and you pack everything and go home again. I think the game you are talking about was Dimaga vs Mvp on Newkirk. That was quite fun, but not only through the Mech buffs, but in general with the much better understanding of the Mech style and the discovery of Ravens these kinds of attacks from the Zerg just don't work. On the flipside, Mvp also cannot really push given how spread he has to be, which means to me that the Zerg should lose when trying that kind of stuff, but it will take a long time, since he shouldn't engage offensively... MVP vs Stephano + Show Spoiler +https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e0dZP6He_E4 The Raven and SH are the worst things to have happen to mech TvZ IMO. The game above is what the general look of the MU should be like.
Yeah, its pretty bad if both sides have incentives to sit back and wait.
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On July 23 2014 17:31 StaraCroft wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2014 16:58 Loccstana wrote:On July 23 2014 15:42 StaraCroft wrote:On July 23 2014 14:39 Karpfen wrote:On July 23 2014 13:23 StaraCroft wrote:
Is this really what terrans want? This basically means if you don't pull your probes in time against an early mine drop you will loose to one mine. And you might still loose if they send in a second medivac into the retreat path of your probes (haven't seen anyone do this since the beta).
This doesn't seem like it addresses any balance concerns and will just give random wins to terran if they happen to land a lucky widow mine shot.
Yeah, lucky to find a protoss that has huge reaction times and does not move probes. You obviously haven't played against this in the beta. If you don't pull the probes before the mine gets dropped it is better to not move them at all because you will just guide the widow mine shot into all of your probes loosing you the game instantly. Of course it's possible to play against this, but a fraction of a second can make the difference between no units lost and 16 probes lost. It is extremely coinflippy. Widow mines take 3 seconds to burrow and another 1.5 seconds to fire. If you cant react to widow mines in 4.5 seconds, then I really dont know what to say. Most widow mines get only 3-4 kills before they die anyways. On the other hand, the oracle... A widow mine that got 3-4 kills before the patch will end the game after the patch. Just to make sure you realize this: One WM will kill every probe in the entire spash radius of 1.75 instantly, which is half a mineral line. I'm not saying it will be impossible to defend. I've played against this for months. I'm just saying it increases the punishment for making a mistake as protoss. It's making a binary unit even more binary. It will lead to some easy wins if P makes a mistake, and will change almost nothing if they don't.
Stop being foolish. The +shields will not result in any extra kills vs probes compared to the pre-patched mine got. The mine already had enough damage to kill all probes caught in its splash radius, and mine drops were not game ending before that patch, so they will not be now either. The only thing the +shields helps against is gateway units.
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Right now the WM kills probes in a 1.5 radius. After the patch it will kill in a 1.75 radius. Sure it's a buff. But it'S not as big as some here think.
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Protoss complaining about WMs drops in their mineral line is so hilarious and ironic when you know that they have oracles and DTs that are way more efficient then a WM in this situation.
You didn't scout a WM drop but you have an eyes on the minimap ? Maximum probe lost : 1
You didn't scout an oracle but you have an eyes on the minimap ? You lost the game, gg.
You didn't scout a DT drop but you have an eyes on the minimap ? You lost the game, gg.
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I was talking about the original widow mine, when it already killed all probes within a 1.75 radius. It was not broken then, and it will not be broken now.
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Double the warp in duration from 5 to 10 seconds and also double the damage that a warping in unit takes. This should discourage the in your face warpins.
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EPT
