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SC2Toastie
Netherlands5725 Posts
As long as Blizzard pidgeonholes Terran into having only 4 viable units, mech will not be viable. Nerfs like making hardened shiels reduce 50% of damage, making Tempest more expensive (especially on supply) and buffing the 10 useless Terran units might easilly give mech the power it deserves. But bandaiding is easier and thus cheaper. | ||
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HoZBlooddrop
Italy324 Posts
wow this was great, asking koreans was really insightful ^^ | ||
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ETisME
12911 Posts
No its not. There are good ways and bad ways for nerf. Not all nerfs are good even if the race is op if it would just lead to another problem | ||
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Ninjabutter
14 Posts
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VArsovskiSC
Macedonia563 Posts
1 - The game should be patched about GAMEPLAY, not balancing the WINRATES, and IN THAT CONTEXT he says the: 2 - EVEN IF top Terrans WERE a lot better than the top P/Z Blizz would accomplish nothing if they were focused on adjusting the win-rates instead of the gameplay.. So yes - he had a POINT, which I think most of us agree upon I mean - he DOES sound kinda "douchy & disrespectful", BUT - his post HAD a very good point - balances aren't to fix winrates, they're to fix GAMEPLAY.. Which is "kinda" what we are/were all asking for Honestly if this goes through - I kinda expect about 70% winrate for Terran in TvZ lol.. And in PvZ - Zerg will probably win more with Roach-Hydra-Corruptor attack on the 3rd (or maybe even Roach-Ling which is more likely to happen even before) GJ TL Staff - awesome work, and not only that, but you're getting better and better set of interviewees too, thanks for the the info  | ||
Teoita
Italy12248 Posts
On July 19 2014 17:25 SC2Toastie wrote: Slight little addition to Teoita, As long as Blizzard pidgeonholes Terran into having only 4 viable units, mech will not be viable. Nerfs like making hardened shiels reduce 50% of damage, making Tempest more expensive (especially on supply) and buffing the 10 useless Terran units might easilly give mech the power it deserves. But bandaiding is easier and thus cheaper. Honestly i feel like if they just buffed the tank it would be fine. Maybe bio would be less viable in TvT, but it would remain a great matchup regardless so i can live with that if people really, really want mech. For PvT they would probably have to include some kind of +shield bonus (maybe taking it away from the mine). Tempests are kinda hard to touch cuz other matchups, so i dont know about that. We will see in LotV beta i suppose. | ||
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Loccstana
United States833 Posts
On July 19 2014 17:32 Teoita wrote: Honestly i feel like if they just buffed the tank it would be fine. Maybe bio would be less viable in TvT, but it would remain a great matchup regardless so i can live with that if people really, really want mech. For PvT they would probably have to include some kind of +shield bonus (maybe taking it away from the mine). Tempests are kinda hard to touch cuz other matchups, so i dont know about that. We will see in LotV beta i suppose. Tempest's range needs to be reduced or the bonus to massive air removed. They are the reason why broodlords and battle cruisers are no longer viable. Protoss already got voidrays as a anti capital ship unit. | ||
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VArsovskiSC
Macedonia563 Posts
On July 19 2014 17:32 Teoita wrote: Honestly i feel like if they just buffed the tank it would be fine. Maybe bio would be less viable in TvT, but it would remain a great matchup regardless so i can live with that if people really, really want mech. For PvT they would probably have to include some kind of +shield bonus (maybe taking it away from the mine). Tempests are kinda hard to touch cuz other matchups, so i dont know about that. We will see in LotV beta i suppose. Problem with mech in Terran isn't that Tanks are weak, but the fact that the units that should guard them fail at their "job".. Raven, WMine, Viking, and even the Thor - all fail to "guard" the Tank overall.. The only unit that's relatively good at guarding the Tanks intact are the Hellbat, but those can work vs only certain type of units that aren't Tank's main threat/problem.. Tanks aren't bad at their damaging output, and maybe on the contrary - they're quite good, but what use if the opponent can simply pick them off with either Air or Immortals ? | ||
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Svizcy
Slovenia300 Posts
Changin toss or zerg would probably be a mistake at this point. I think slight terran buffs are the right call, but maybe not in the way they tend to do them. I personally think small tank buff, and maybe small BC buff or Thor buff would be all it would take to make things better for terran. | ||
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Teoita
Italy12248 Posts
On July 19 2014 17:36 VArsovskiSC wrote: Problem with mech in Terran isn't that Tanks are weak, but the fact that the units that should guard them fail at their "job".. Raven, WMine, Viking, and even the Thor - all fail to "guard" the Tank overall.. Tanks aren't bad at their damaging output, and maybe on the contrary - they're quite good, but what use if the opponent can simply pick them off with either Air or Immortals ? I feel like the problem with Mech is that tanks are just weak (talking tvz and tvp here), so you need to tech to other stuff to compensate (ghosts, vikings, ravens, etc). BW tanks were the core of the army supported by vultures and science vessels; sc2 tanks are just kind of there so you dont die while you mass ravens more or less. On July 19 2014 17:35 Loccstana wrote: Tempest's range needs to be reduced or the bonus to massive air removed. They are the reason why broodlords and battle cruisers are no longer viable. Protoss already got voidrays as a anti capital ship unit. Broodlords in PvZ are still viable as a unit to close out a game, they just aren't the go-to unit that more or less defines when a Zerg can win. Honestly i'm kind of ok with that. | ||
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Loccstana
United States833 Posts
On July 19 2014 17:37 Svizcy wrote: I think the balance is much more near us than we would ever agree on. Changin toss or zerg would probably be a mistake at this point. I think slight terran buffs are the right call, but maybe not in the way they tend to do them. I personally think small tank buff, and maybe small BC buff or Thor buff would be all it would take to make things better for terran. The game is "balanced", but not very exciting to watch since everyone goes for the same builds. We need major overhauls to gameplay mechanics and especially Terran mech units. We need changes like Dota 2 patch 6.79 | ||
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Teoita
Italy12248 Posts
On July 19 2014 17:39 Loccstana wrote: The game is "balanced", but not very exciting to watch since everyone goes for the same builds. We need major overhauls to gameplay mechanics and especially Terran mech units. We need changes like Dota 2 patch 6.79 A moba and an RTS are very different beasts though; you can't just change stats because fuck yes and hope an RTS remains balanced. In a moba the ban/pick system helps in smooth out imbalances (see all the Lycan insta-bans this weekend) | ||
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VArsovskiSC
Macedonia563 Posts
On July 19 2014 17:37 Svizcy wrote: I think the balance is much more near us than we would ever agree on. Changin toss or zerg would probably be a mistake at this point. I think slight terran buffs are the right call, but maybe not in the way they tend to do them. I personally think small tank buff, and maybe small BC buff or Thor buff would be all it would take to make things better for terran. I still can't "wrap" my head around that Tempest bonus vs Air Massive, lol.. I mean if that gets nerfed - we might see BOTH - BC and Broodlord.. (I hope), but I agree - 14 range for Tanks instead of 13 shouldn't be game-breaking much in either ZvT or TvT, but would maybe open some "build" that might put Protoss passive play relying on the MSC for defense on the clock overall | ||
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Xequecal
United States473 Posts
On July 19 2014 17:35 Loccstana wrote: Tempest's range needs to be reduced or the bonus to massive air removed. They are the reason why broodlords and battle cruisers are no longer viable. Protoss already got voidrays as a anti capital ship unit. Void rays can't really function in that capacity due to their low range and low speed. Also a handful of thors can wipe infinity void rays off the field in seconds, with 5 thors it takes literally three seconds and they're all gone, they won't even get in range to shoot anything. | ||
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Shield
Bulgaria4824 Posts
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Nebuchad
Switzerland12620 Posts
On July 19 2014 17:32 VArsovskiSC wrote: + Show Spoiler + Stop bashing Happy guys, his sentense had A LOT of sense.. Don't just take the "part" where he says - Terran are the "skill" race, but take the whole answer as a whole, which HAD A VERY GOOD POINT: 1 - The game should be patched about GAMEPLAY, not balancing the WINRATES, and IN THAT CONTEXT he says the: 2 - EVEN IF top Terrans WERE a lot better than the top P/Z Blizz would accomplish nothing if they were focused on adjusting the win-rates instead of the gameplay.. So yes - he had a POINT, which I think most of us agree upon I mean - he DOES sound kinda "douchy & disrespectful", BUT - his post HAD a very good point - balances aren't to fix winrates, they're to fix GAMEPLAY.. Which is "kinda" what we are/were all asking for Honestly if this goes through - I kinda expect about 70% winrate for Terran in TvZ lol.. And in PvZ - Zerg will probably win more with Roach-Hydra-Corruptor attack on the 3rd (or maybe even Roach-Ling which is more likely to happen even before) GJ TL Staff - awesome work, and not only that, but you're getting better and better set of interviewees too, thanks for the the info 1. You don't get bonus points for using a lot of caps lock. 2. No? He's very clear about what point he's trying to make, I don't see why it's unfair to question him on that. If he wanted us not to do it, he could have, you know, not made that point. | ||
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Loccstana
United States833 Posts
On July 19 2014 17:41 Teoita wrote: A moba and an RTS are very different beasts though; you can't just change stats because fuck yes and hope an RTS remains balanced. In a moba the ban/pick system helps in smooth out imbalances (see all the Lycan insta-bans this weekend) What Blizzard should do is add more units into the game, for example the campaign units. Balance is ultimately determined by how creatively players use their units and the more units in the game, the better. Dota 2 would be much harder to balance if there are only 20 heros to choose from. Also, Blizzard needs to redo the damage system. The x damage, +y to attribute is severely flawed. | ||
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Shield
Bulgaria4824 Posts
On July 19 2014 17:48 Loccstana wrote: What Blizzard should do is add more units into the game, for example the campaign units. Balance is ultimately determined by how creatively players use their units and the more units in the game, the better. Dota 2 would be much harder to balance if there are only 20 heros to choose from. Also, Blizzard needs to redo the damage system. The x damage, +y to attribute is severely flawed. Why? BW had classes small/medium/large units but that was hard to comprehend. Size is kind of relative. How is SC2's system bad? | ||
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Ambre
France416 Posts
On July 19 2014 10:17 Nebuchad wrote: And as I said, it's very easy to disprove his point, because terrans don't do better than the other races when underpowered. Look at the leap in logic that is happening there. When someone tells you that TaeJa winning tournaments proves that terran isn't that underpowered, you're going to answer to him that he isn't playing against the very best opposition, so the fact that he wins doesn't mean much when it comes to balance. It even skews the winrates, as you have argued before, because it makes the terran winrates look better than they would look if he was playing people of his own level all the time. But now suddenly Happy wants to use Taeja's wins as balance points, saying that because he can beat these people, that proves terrans are superior players, and that doesn't shock you a single bit? Taeja vs Zest BWAHAHAHAHA User was warned for this post | ||
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Loccstana
United States833 Posts
On July 19 2014 17:49 darkness wrote: Why? BW had classes small/medium/large units but that was hard to comprehend. Size is kind of relative. How is SC2's system bad? The problem with the current system is that the more attributes a unit has, the more vunerable the unit is against taking bonus damage from some other unit. This leads to a hard counter system where units with certain attributes take massive damage from units with certain bonus damage attributes. And as all know hard counters are terrible from a gameplay perspective. For more detailed explanation read this: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/starcraft-2/121769-oh-micro-where-art-thou | ||
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