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Pro Opinions: New Proposed Balance Changes - Page 5

Forum Index > SC2 General
357 CommentsPost a Reply
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SC2Toastie
Profile Blog Joined October 2013
Netherlands5725 Posts
July 19 2014 08:25 GMT
#81
Slight little addition to Teoita,
As long as Blizzard pidgeonholes Terran into having only 4 viable units, mech will not be viable.
Nerfs like making hardened shiels reduce 50% of damage, making Tempest more expensive (especially on supply) and buffing the 10 useless Terran units might easilly give mech the power it deserves.


But bandaiding is easier and thus cheaper.
Mura Ma Man, Dark Da Dude, Super Shot Sos!
HoZBlooddrop
Profile Blog Joined December 2013
Italy324 Posts
July 19 2014 08:25 GMT
#82
bboongbboong <3

wow this was great, asking koreans was really insightful ^^
ETisME
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
12396 Posts
July 19 2014 08:26 GMT
#83
On July 19 2014 17:05 Vete wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 19 2014 16:40 pieroog wrote:
"Well it's a Protoss nerf so, by default, I think it's good!" - what a childish comment.

childish but true...



No its not.
There are good ways and bad ways for nerf.

Not all nerfs are good even if the race is op if it would just lead to another problem
其疾如风,其徐如林,侵掠如火,不动如山,难知如阴,动如雷震。
Ninjabutter
Profile Blog Joined January 2014
14 Posts
July 19 2014 08:32 GMT
#84
Happy has the best micro of all foreigners. There is no one better to study than Happy if you want to improve your army control. He is also a very hard working pro, always at the top of the EU ladder since forever. It is really sad how little he has won given the amazing skills he has. I can understand why he is frustrated at the game.
VArsovskiSC
Profile Joined July 2010
Macedonia563 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-07-19 08:34:32
July 19 2014 08:32 GMT
#85
Stop bashing Happy guys, his sentense had A LOT of sense.. Don't just take the "part" where he says - Terran are the "skill" race, but take the whole answer as a whole, which HAD A VERY GOOD POINT:

1 - The game should be patched about GAMEPLAY, not balancing the WINRATES, and IN THAT CONTEXT he says the:
2 - EVEN IF top Terrans WERE a lot better than the top P/Z Blizz would accomplish nothing if they were focused on adjusting the win-rates instead of the gameplay.. So yes - he had a POINT, which I think most of us agree upon

I mean - he DOES sound kinda "douchy & disrespectful", BUT - his post HAD a very good point - balances aren't to fix winrates, they're to fix GAMEPLAY.. Which is "kinda" what we are/were all asking for

Honestly if this goes through - I kinda expect about 70% winrate for Terran in TvZ lol.. And in PvZ - Zerg will probably win more with Roach-Hydra-Corruptor attack on the 3rd (or maybe even Roach-Ling which is more likely to happen even before)

GJ TL Staff - awesome work, and not only that, but you're getting better and better set of interviewees too, thanks for the the info
Another world, another place, another universe, won the race.. :) ;) :P
Teoita
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
Italy12246 Posts
July 19 2014 08:32 GMT
#86
On July 19 2014 17:25 SC2Toastie wrote:
Slight little addition to Teoita,
As long as Blizzard pidgeonholes Terran into having only 4 viable units, mech will not be viable.
Nerfs like making hardened shiels reduce 50% of damage, making Tempest more expensive (especially on supply) and buffing the 10 useless Terran units might easilly give mech the power it deserves.


But bandaiding is easier and thus cheaper.


Honestly i feel like if they just buffed the tank it would be fine. Maybe bio would be less viable in TvT, but it would remain a great matchup regardless so i can live with that if people really, really want mech. For PvT they would probably have to include some kind of +shield bonus (maybe taking it away from the mine).

Tempests are kinda hard to touch cuz other matchups, so i dont know about that. We will see in LotV beta i suppose.
ModeratorProtoss all-ins are like a wok. You can throw whatever you want in there and it will turn out alright.
Loccstana
Profile Blog Joined November 2012
United States833 Posts
July 19 2014 08:35 GMT
#87
On July 19 2014 17:32 Teoita wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 19 2014 17:25 SC2Toastie wrote:
Slight little addition to Teoita,
As long as Blizzard pidgeonholes Terran into having only 4 viable units, mech will not be viable.
Nerfs like making hardened shiels reduce 50% of damage, making Tempest more expensive (especially on supply) and buffing the 10 useless Terran units might easilly give mech the power it deserves.


But bandaiding is easier and thus cheaper.


Honestly i feel like if they just buffed the tank it would be fine. Maybe bio would be less viable in TvT, but it would remain a great matchup regardless so i can live with that if people really, really want mech. For PvT they would probably have to include some kind of +shield bonus (maybe taking it away from the mine).

Tempests are kinda hard to touch cuz other matchups, so i dont know about that. We will see in LotV beta i suppose.


Tempest's range needs to be reduced or the bonus to massive air removed. They are the reason why broodlords and battle cruisers are no longer viable. Protoss already got voidrays as a anti capital ship unit.
[url]http://i.imgur.com/lw2yN.jpg[/url]
VArsovskiSC
Profile Joined July 2010
Macedonia563 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-07-19 08:39:08
July 19 2014 08:36 GMT
#88
On July 19 2014 17:32 Teoita wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 19 2014 17:25 SC2Toastie wrote:
Slight little addition to Teoita,
As long as Blizzard pidgeonholes Terran into having only 4 viable units, mech will not be viable.
Nerfs like making hardened shiels reduce 50% of damage, making Tempest more expensive (especially on supply) and buffing the 10 useless Terran units might easilly give mech the power it deserves.


But bandaiding is easier and thus cheaper.


Honestly i feel like if they just buffed the tank it would be fine. Maybe bio would be less viable in TvT, but it would remain a great matchup regardless so i can live with that if people really, really want mech. For PvT they would probably have to include some kind of +shield bonus (maybe taking it away from the mine).

Tempests are kinda hard to touch cuz other matchups, so i dont know about that. We will see in LotV beta i suppose.

Problem with mech in Terran isn't that Tanks are weak, but the fact that the units that should guard them fail at their "job".. Raven, WMine, Viking, and even the Thor - all fail to "guard" the Tank overall.. The only unit that's relatively good at guarding the Tanks intact are the Hellbat, but those can work vs only certain type of units that aren't Tank's main threat/problem..

Tanks aren't bad at their damaging output, and maybe on the contrary - they're quite good, but what use if the opponent can simply pick them off with either Air or Immortals ?
Another world, another place, another universe, won the race.. :) ;) :P
Svizcy
Profile Joined May 2010
Slovenia300 Posts
July 19 2014 08:37 GMT
#89
I think the balance is much more near us than we would ever agree on.

Changin toss or zerg would probably be a mistake at this point. I think slight terran buffs are the right call, but maybe not in the way they tend to do them.

I personally think small tank buff, and maybe small BC buff or Thor buff would be all it would take to make things better for terran.
Teoita
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
Italy12246 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-07-19 08:40:18
July 19 2014 08:39 GMT
#90
On July 19 2014 17:36 VArsovskiSC wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 19 2014 17:32 Teoita wrote:
On July 19 2014 17:25 SC2Toastie wrote:
Slight little addition to Teoita,
As long as Blizzard pidgeonholes Terran into having only 4 viable units, mech will not be viable.
Nerfs like making hardened shiels reduce 50% of damage, making Tempest more expensive (especially on supply) and buffing the 10 useless Terran units might easilly give mech the power it deserves.


But bandaiding is easier and thus cheaper.


Honestly i feel like if they just buffed the tank it would be fine. Maybe bio would be less viable in TvT, but it would remain a great matchup regardless so i can live with that if people really, really want mech. For PvT they would probably have to include some kind of +shield bonus (maybe taking it away from the mine).

Tempests are kinda hard to touch cuz other matchups, so i dont know about that. We will see in LotV beta i suppose.

Problem with mech in Terran isn't that Tanks are weak, but the fact that the units that should guard them fail at their "job".. Raven, WMine, Viking, and even the Thor - all fail to "guard" the Tank overall.. Tanks aren't bad at their damaging output, and maybe on the contrary - they're quite good, but what use if the opponent can simply pick them off with either Air or Immortals ?


I feel like the problem with Mech is that tanks are just weak (talking tvz and tvp here), so you need to tech to other stuff to compensate (ghosts, vikings, ravens, etc). BW tanks were the core of the army supported by vultures and science vessels; sc2 tanks are just kind of there so you dont die while you mass ravens more or less.

On July 19 2014 17:35 Loccstana wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 19 2014 17:32 Teoita wrote:
On July 19 2014 17:25 SC2Toastie wrote:
Slight little addition to Teoita,
As long as Blizzard pidgeonholes Terran into having only 4 viable units, mech will not be viable.
Nerfs like making hardened shiels reduce 50% of damage, making Tempest more expensive (especially on supply) and buffing the 10 useless Terran units might easilly give mech the power it deserves.


But bandaiding is easier and thus cheaper.


Honestly i feel like if they just buffed the tank it would be fine. Maybe bio would be less viable in TvT, but it would remain a great matchup regardless so i can live with that if people really, really want mech. For PvT they would probably have to include some kind of +shield bonus (maybe taking it away from the mine).

Tempests are kinda hard to touch cuz other matchups, so i dont know about that. We will see in LotV beta i suppose.


Tempest's range needs to be reduced or the bonus to massive air removed. They are the reason why broodlords and battle cruisers are no longer viable. Protoss already got voidrays as a anti capital ship unit.


Broodlords in PvZ are still viable as a unit to close out a game, they just aren't the go-to unit that more or less defines when a Zerg can win. Honestly i'm kind of ok with that.
ModeratorProtoss all-ins are like a wok. You can throw whatever you want in there and it will turn out alright.
Loccstana
Profile Blog Joined November 2012
United States833 Posts
July 19 2014 08:39 GMT
#91
On July 19 2014 17:37 Svizcy wrote:
I think the balance is much more near us than we would ever agree on.

Changin toss or zerg would probably be a mistake at this point. I think slight terran buffs are the right call, but maybe not in the way they tend to do them.

I personally think small tank buff, and maybe small BC buff or Thor buff would be all it would take to make things better for terran.


The game is "balanced", but not very exciting to watch since everyone goes for the same builds. We need major overhauls to gameplay mechanics and especially Terran mech units. We need changes like Dota 2 patch 6.79
[url]http://i.imgur.com/lw2yN.jpg[/url]
Teoita
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
Italy12246 Posts
July 19 2014 08:41 GMT
#92
On July 19 2014 17:39 Loccstana wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 19 2014 17:37 Svizcy wrote:
I think the balance is much more near us than we would ever agree on.

Changin toss or zerg would probably be a mistake at this point. I think slight terran buffs are the right call, but maybe not in the way they tend to do them.

I personally think small tank buff, and maybe small BC buff or Thor buff would be all it would take to make things better for terran.


The game is "balanced", but not very exciting to watch since everyone goes for the same builds. We need major overhauls to gameplay mechanics and especially Terran mech units. We need changes like Dota 2 patch 6.79


A moba and an RTS are very different beasts though; you can't just change stats because fuck yes and hope an RTS remains balanced.

In a moba the ban/pick system helps in smooth out imbalances (see all the Lycan insta-bans this weekend)
ModeratorProtoss all-ins are like a wok. You can throw whatever you want in there and it will turn out alright.
VArsovskiSC
Profile Joined July 2010
Macedonia563 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-07-19 08:46:06
July 19 2014 08:41 GMT
#93
On July 19 2014 17:37 Svizcy wrote:
I think the balance is much more near us than we would ever agree on.

Changin toss or zerg would probably be a mistake at this point. I think slight terran buffs are the right call, but maybe not in the way they tend to do them.

I personally think small tank buff, and maybe small BC buff or Thor buff would be all it would take to make things better for terran.

I still can't "wrap" my head around that Tempest bonus vs Air Massive, lol.. I mean if that gets nerfed - we might see BOTH - BC and Broodlord.. (I hope), but I agree - 14 range for Tanks instead of 13 shouldn't be game-breaking much in either ZvT or TvT, but would maybe open some "build" that might put Protoss passive play relying on the MSC for defense on the clock overall
Another world, another place, another universe, won the race.. :) ;) :P
Xequecal
Profile Joined October 2010
United States473 Posts
July 19 2014 08:43 GMT
#94
On July 19 2014 17:35 Loccstana wrote:
Tempest's range needs to be reduced or the bonus to massive air removed. They are the reason why broodlords and battle cruisers are no longer viable. Protoss already got voidrays as a anti capital ship unit.


Void rays can't really function in that capacity due to their low range and low speed. Also a handful of thors can wipe infinity void rays off the field in seconds, with 5 thors it takes literally three seconds and they're all gone, they won't even get in range to shoot anything.
Shield
Profile Blog Joined August 2009
Bulgaria4824 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-07-19 08:47:46
July 19 2014 08:45 GMT
#95
As a protoss who goes chargelot/storm in PvT, it's really bad right now. It's a fun composition, and colossus isn't that much. From spectators' view, Blizzard should punish colossi not chargelot/storm. Congrats on making the game even less fun, Blizzard.
Nebuchad
Profile Blog Joined December 2012
Switzerland12181 Posts
July 19 2014 08:45 GMT
#96
On July 19 2014 17:32 VArsovskiSC wrote:
+ Show Spoiler +
Stop bashing Happy guys, his sentense had A LOT of sense.. Don't just take the "part" where he says - Terran are the "skill" race, but take the whole answer as a whole, which HAD A VERY GOOD POINT:

1 - The game should be patched about GAMEPLAY, not balancing the WINRATES, and IN THAT CONTEXT he says the:
2 - EVEN IF top Terrans WERE a lot better than the top P/Z Blizz would accomplish nothing if they were focused on adjusting the win-rates instead of the gameplay.. So yes - he had a POINT, which I think most of us agree upon

I mean - he DOES sound kinda "douchy & disrespectful", BUT - his post HAD a very good point - balances aren't to fix winrates, they're to fix GAMEPLAY.. Which is "kinda" what we are/were all asking for

Honestly if this goes through - I kinda expect about 70% winrate for Terran in TvZ lol.. And in PvZ - Zerg will probably win more with Roach-Hydra-Corruptor attack on the 3rd (or maybe even Roach-Ling which is more likely to happen even before)

GJ TL Staff - awesome work, and not only that, but you're getting better and better set of interviewees too, thanks for the the info


1. You don't get bonus points for using a lot of caps lock.
2. No? He's very clear about what point he's trying to make, I don't see why it's unfair to question him on that. If he wanted us not to do it, he could have, you know, not made that point.
No will to live, no wish to die
Loccstana
Profile Blog Joined November 2012
United States833 Posts
July 19 2014 08:48 GMT
#97
On July 19 2014 17:41 Teoita wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 19 2014 17:39 Loccstana wrote:
On July 19 2014 17:37 Svizcy wrote:
I think the balance is much more near us than we would ever agree on.

Changin toss or zerg would probably be a mistake at this point. I think slight terran buffs are the right call, but maybe not in the way they tend to do them.

I personally think small tank buff, and maybe small BC buff or Thor buff would be all it would take to make things better for terran.


The game is "balanced", but not very exciting to watch since everyone goes for the same builds. We need major overhauls to gameplay mechanics and especially Terran mech units. We need changes like Dota 2 patch 6.79


A moba and an RTS are very different beasts though; you can't just change stats because fuck yes and hope an RTS remains balanced.

In a moba the ban/pick system helps in smooth out imbalances (see all the Lycan insta-bans this weekend)


What Blizzard should do is add more units into the game, for example the campaign units. Balance is ultimately determined by how creatively players use their units and the more units in the game, the better. Dota 2 would be much harder to balance if there are only 20 heros to choose from.

Also, Blizzard needs to redo the damage system. The x damage, +y to attribute is severely flawed.
[url]http://i.imgur.com/lw2yN.jpg[/url]
Shield
Profile Blog Joined August 2009
Bulgaria4824 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-07-19 08:50:04
July 19 2014 08:49 GMT
#98
On July 19 2014 17:48 Loccstana wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 19 2014 17:41 Teoita wrote:
On July 19 2014 17:39 Loccstana wrote:
On July 19 2014 17:37 Svizcy wrote:
I think the balance is much more near us than we would ever agree on.

Changin toss or zerg would probably be a mistake at this point. I think slight terran buffs are the right call, but maybe not in the way they tend to do them.

I personally think small tank buff, and maybe small BC buff or Thor buff would be all it would take to make things better for terran.


The game is "balanced", but not very exciting to watch since everyone goes for the same builds. We need major overhauls to gameplay mechanics and especially Terran mech units. We need changes like Dota 2 patch 6.79


A moba and an RTS are very different beasts though; you can't just change stats because fuck yes and hope an RTS remains balanced.

In a moba the ban/pick system helps in smooth out imbalances (see all the Lycan insta-bans this weekend)


What Blizzard should do is add more units into the game, for example the campaign units. Balance is ultimately determined by how creatively players use their units and the more units in the game, the better. Dota 2 would be much harder to balance if there are only 20 heros to choose from.

Also, Blizzard needs to redo the damage system. The x damage, +y to attribute is severely flawed.


Why? BW had classes small/medium/large units but that was hard to comprehend. Size is kind of relative. How is SC2's system bad?
Ambre
Profile Joined July 2011
France416 Posts
July 19 2014 08:50 GMT
#99
On July 19 2014 10:17 Nebuchad wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 19 2014 10:08 Faust852 wrote:
On July 19 2014 10:07 Fanatic-Templar wrote:
On July 19 2014 10:03 Faust852 wrote:When you take more time to look, you might realise that, for exemple, terran is the least represented race for years in top league, even at the top foreigner level. Even before the WMs patch, there were few foreigners terrans and we were still the least represented race in GM. But top koreans terrans kept winning everything.
Hell, even at the sbig terran era, in 2011, there were really few top foreigners terrans compared to protoss and zergs. This is something that make us think that there might be a huge wall that only topkorean terrans have overcome.


That's an attempt at distraction. You're supposed to be demonstrating a difference of skill between topkorean Terrans and topkorean Zergs or Protosses, not a difference between topkorean Terrans and foreigner Terrans.


As I said, there is no way to prove my point. I said it's probably a general bias from the terran population. The only argument I can give is TheMarine's argument.


And as I said, it's very easy to disprove his point, because terrans don't do better than the other races when underpowered. Look at the leap in logic that is happening there. When someone tells you that TaeJa winning tournaments proves that terran isn't that underpowered, you're going to answer to him that he isn't playing against the very best opposition, so the fact that he wins doesn't mean much when it comes to balance. It even skews the winrates, as you have argued before, because it makes the terran winrates look better than they would look if he was playing people of his own level all the time.

But now suddenly Happy wants to use Taeja's wins as balance points, saying that because he can beat these people, that proves terrans are superior players, and that doesn't shock you a single bit?


Taeja vs Zest

BWAHAHAHAHA

User was warned for this post
"There is only one corner of the universe you can be certain of improving, and that's your own self." - Aldous Huxley
Loccstana
Profile Blog Joined November 2012
United States833 Posts
July 19 2014 08:58 GMT
#100
On July 19 2014 17:49 darkness wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 19 2014 17:48 Loccstana wrote:
On July 19 2014 17:41 Teoita wrote:
On July 19 2014 17:39 Loccstana wrote:
On July 19 2014 17:37 Svizcy wrote:
I think the balance is much more near us than we would ever agree on.

Changin toss or zerg would probably be a mistake at this point. I think slight terran buffs are the right call, but maybe not in the way they tend to do them.

I personally think small tank buff, and maybe small BC buff or Thor buff would be all it would take to make things better for terran.


The game is "balanced", but not very exciting to watch since everyone goes for the same builds. We need major overhauls to gameplay mechanics and especially Terran mech units. We need changes like Dota 2 patch 6.79


A moba and an RTS are very different beasts though; you can't just change stats because fuck yes and hope an RTS remains balanced.

In a moba the ban/pick system helps in smooth out imbalances (see all the Lycan insta-bans this weekend)


What Blizzard should do is add more units into the game, for example the campaign units. Balance is ultimately determined by how creatively players use their units and the more units in the game, the better. Dota 2 would be much harder to balance if there are only 20 heros to choose from.

Also, Blizzard needs to redo the damage system. The x damage, +y to attribute is severely flawed.


Why? BW had classes small/medium/large units but that was hard to comprehend. Size is kind of relative. How is SC2's system bad?


The problem with the current system is that the more attributes a unit has, the more vunerable the unit is against taking bonus damage from some other unit. This leads to a hard counter system where units with certain attributes take massive damage from units with certain bonus damage attributes. And as all know hard counters are terrible from a gameplay perspective.

For more detailed explanation read this:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/starcraft-2/121769-oh-micro-where-art-thou
[url]http://i.imgur.com/lw2yN.jpg[/url]
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