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On July 19 2014 17:45 Nebuchad wrote:Show nested quote +On July 19 2014 17:32 VArsovskiSC wrote:+ Show Spoiler +Stop bashing Happy guys, his sentense had A LOT of sense.. Don't just take the "part" where he says - Terran are the "skill" race, but take the whole answer as a whole, which HAD A VERY GOOD POINT: 1 - The game should be patched about GAMEPLAY, not balancing the WINRATES, and IN THAT CONTEXT he says the: 2 - EVEN IF top Terrans WERE a lot better than the top P/Z Blizz would accomplish nothing if they were focused on adjusting the win-rates instead of the gameplay.. So yes - he had a POINT, which I think most of us agree upon I mean - he DOES sound kinda "douchy & disrespectful", BUT - his post HAD a very good point - balances aren't to fix winrates, they're to fix GAMEPLAY.. Which is "kinda" what we are/were all asking for Honestly if this goes through - I kinda expect about 70% winrate for Terran in TvZ lol.. And in PvZ - Zerg will probably win more with Roach-Hydra-Corruptor attack on the 3rd (or maybe even Roach-Ling which is more likely to happen even before) GJ TL Staff - awesome work, and not only that, but you're getting better and better set of interviewees too, thanks for the the info  1. You don't get bonus points for using a lot of caps lock. 2. No? He's very clear about what point he's trying to make, I don't see why it's unfair to question him on that. If he wanted us not to do it, he could have, you know, not made that point.
Don't drag me down m8, I don't belong in that "bully" league of yours.. I'd like to think/believe that he certainly didn't address his thought on us, but he had a different goal (which b.t.w. IS EASILY READABLE if you try to overcome your "first thought" and "search" for things that make more sense a bit more)
I honestly tried to understand happy the best I could, and read his "thought" instead of his "words" that came out.. After all he may or may not be good at English, but it certainly isn't his natural..
So yah - if you really want to debate on that - "dude Happy, what a douche, can't believe he said that, lol" topic - you certainly can do it, pls don't drag me with you down..
I tried to be more positive, and even better - my "con" (more like my only con) were those caps (which happened so that it somehow "hurt" your feelings, but it also is a very easy way to "outline" the crop from the rest in a post)..
But yes - in the very end - won't apologize to you, nor change my method of post - cause grammar or spelling or whatever "irregularities judges" aren't worth thinking over upon
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On July 19 2014 10:44 plogamer wrote:
I agree that templar openings will be nerfed by this changed. But then again, templar opening is already dead in the current patch so that doesn't really impact too much.
So you are saying... The last patch already killed templar openings so it's good that they are even worse now?
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I don't think anyone is disagreeing with Squirtle's point on fun, the question is: what else CAN they buff to help out Terran late game vs Protoss?
Ghost buff won't help vs Collosus, Viking buff is overpowered vs Zerg, and buffing any of the Mech or other Air units doesn't do anything due to Protoss hard counters in the mid and early game and also has major balance ramifications in the other two match ups.
Seriously, I get this argument that Protoss want to be able to open Zealot/Templar but I have yet to see a single decent suggestion as to how to buff Terran late game that makes even a tiny bit of sense.
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ROOT.iaguz wrote
But a patch shouldn't just be about adjusting win rates. A patch is an opportunity to also try and change up how the game is played on some level, and I don't see this patch doing that.
Can we please not do this? The korean scene would never give feedback like this for a reason, it's only foreigners that think so.
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On July 19 2014 18:36 Vindicare605 wrote:
I don't think anyone is disagreeing with Squirtle's point on fun, the question is: what else CAN they buff to help out Terran late game vs Protoss?
Ghost buff won't help vs Collosus, Viking buff is overpowered vs Zerg, and buffing any of the Mech or other Air units doesn't do anything due to Protoss hard counters in the mid and early game and also has major balance ramifications in the other two match ups.
Seriously, I get this argument that Protoss want to be able to open Zealot/Templar but I have yet to see a single decent suggestion as to how to buff Terran late game that makes even a tiny bit of sense.
There's always things that can "come out handy" lol.. The thing is - it's a patch and not an expo, so "effectiveness" is required overall.. By "effectiveness" I mean - achieving the desired effect (or at least in a minimum decent amount) with the LEAST EFFORT POSSIBLE.. So - there are semi/"radical" things that aren't that radical but might work, lol:
1 - try nerf Tempest bonus, and give it partially to shields instead (so it would have it's PvP remained role)
2 - try give Vikings vs shield bonus, or even better - a buff that when they start shooting it's target they get increased range so they'd not have to expose much while chase on colossus (a temporary bonus, but they lose it if switching the target though)
3 - try tweaking swarmhost - halve it's damage with a x2 multiplier, so more armored units will tank longer
4 - try givng the WM a 7 activation range but a 1.5 (or 1.25 or sth) sec delay activation, that delay would "serve" as a "target-this-unit" button, but also a "panic" opportunity for the opponent to split or to retreat as much as possible or so (basically what I'm trying to say is that Mines would work their role if they just forced the opponent to retreat instead of primarily being on destroying their clumps almost in an instant TBH).. Like - that's another Terran "flaw" IMO - they don't have a warn-first-shoot-later unit but instead all they have is the other way round, so limitations had/have to be forced
5 - speaking of which - we don't even know why WMs don't have a hold-fire button
6 - try giving Thor a debuff vs light air units that will give negative armor to it's target - which would cause others to shoot their target faster down (it's not like they shoot too fast so this would be too much to handle or so)
Like - they aren't that "closed" on options, but maybe need be a bit more radical (which isn't that they're not "in the mood to do" if they're already doing something drastic like TW from 30 down to 10 sec, lol)
Speaking of drastic - I'd like to see a change of HSM to something less firepower, more synergetic and more useful, and then nerf PDD though
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These changes probably won't do much, but it's nice that after 2 years of Terran getting shit on there is finally a consensus that a buff might be an interesting idea. How progressive.
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The big problem that I see is that late game the terran doesn't have the same quality of static defence. Terran have to leave actual units behind while P/Z can rely mainly on cannons/spines/spores.
If you made Widow Mines 1 supply Terran could afford to leave more behind their lines to deal with runbys, drops, etc. without weakening their main army. Because this would only matter at 200/200 this would specifically help the late game without buffing terran early/mid game.
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Interesting thoughts, with the usual race bias sometimes though. Hopefully Blizzard reads it and knows how to take what's really meaningful out of it. I expect some changes to the patch anyway, no way the mine regains its full power with the previous buffs and the +shields damage.
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So many opportunities for balance changes that may also change gameplay for the good...
A Raw Tank Damage Buff.
B Give Bio a lategame (FC) upgrade that increases armor against AOE Attacks (Banelings, Collosi, Archon, Siege Tanks) (gives room for other buffs and allows Bio to be more effective in the lategame mass AOE battles and not end Bio in TvT)
C Overcharge becoming a channeled spell
D Tank range to 14
E Tanks move 'n shoot
F Thor redesign
G Buff Fungal, IT or especially Neural
H Make BC Viable (this makes lategame SkyMech and Carriers better probably)
I Tempest less of a hardcounter
J Reduce Mine movement speed, supply cost, damage, cost and increase burrow time - make them defensive instead of offensive.
K Zerg needs a buff verse Toss lategame to allow for a Host nerf, and a buff to PDD. Change the Hydra projectile to instant damage: lower overkill and negates PDD. Possibly add +2 vs Mechanical damage.
L Snipe Buff
M Give Sentries lategame utility (Guardian Shield functions like a Shield Battery out of combat?)
N Put more Emphasis on the lategame usage of Oracles and undo the speed buff.
O Warp Prism can warp in a maximum of 6 to 10 units at a time
P Make Charge a passive speed buff to encourage the micro.
Q find a way to make Corruptors more tactical: make Corruption reduce attack speed, move speed, armor bij 20%.
R Mine priority back to 20
S Lategame utility for Banshees.
T Reaper upgrade to receive the anti light, slightly higher HP and anti structure attack, making them a dangerous yet expensive harrassment unit.
U Remove the damn biotag on Hellbats
V Hellion buff :D!
W Allow X number of phoenix to lift massive units (5?)
X Create an upgrade to DT at Shrine (expensive) to upgrade Sneak/Stealth mode: 6 sec invisibility, 1 sec activation time, 12 sec no attacking.
Y I'd love to see Stalkers get some buff in the form of +2 damage at +3 attack instead of +1 to scale them better
Z fix fucking swarmhosts
Obviously this is not implementable etcetera, just trying to show there is sooooo so much potential in this game, but instead we keep making only half the total arsenal of units useful and have the rest be forgotten and ignored.
I'd say you want to have 75% of all units viable in each matchup.....
Our focus as a community should not be on percentages and stuff - we need to make this game more diverse and fun!
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Italy12246 Posts
On July 19 2014 19:53 Willzzz wrote:
The big problem that I see is that late game the terran doesn't have the same quality of static defence. Terran have to leave actual units behind while P/Z can rely mainly on cannons/spines/spores.
If you made Widow Mines 1 supply Terran could afford to leave more behind their lines to deal with runbys, drops, etc. without weakening their main army. Because this would only matter at 200/200 this would specifically help the late game without buffing terran early/mid game.
I think Terran's main lategame problem is that they can't transition into their ideal army as quickly as the other races. In PvT ideally they'd want like 20 ghosts and 15 vikings along the rest of their bio, while sacrificing most of their scv's. That takes about 40 minutes to accomplish, as opposed to roughly 20 for Protoss. And in TvZ bio, i don't even know what exactly they are supposed to get to stop 60 banelings and a bunch of ultras...
edit: @sc2toastie, why the hell woudl you want to buff fungal? we know how that one ends, and it's not pretty; plus, it's still strong enough in PvZ without being broken.
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On July 19 2014 20:26 Teoita wrote:Show nested quote +On July 19 2014 19:53 Willzzz wrote:
The big problem that I see is that late game the terran doesn't have the same quality of static defence. Terran have to leave actual units behind while P/Z can rely mainly on cannons/spines/spores.
If you made Widow Mines 1 supply Terran could afford to leave more behind their lines to deal with runbys, drops, etc. without weakening their main army. Because this would only matter at 200/200 this would specifically help the late game without buffing terran early/mid game. I think Terran's main lategame problem is that they can't transition into their ideal army as quickly as the other races. In PvT ideally they'd want like 20 ghosts and 15 vikings along the rest of their bio, while sacrificing most of their scv's. That takes about 40 minutes to accomplish, as opposed to roughly 20 for Protoss. And in TvZ bio, i don't even know what exactly they are supposed to get to stop 60 banelings and a bunch of ultras... edit: @sc2toastie, why the hell woudl you want to buff fungal? we know how that one ends, and it's not pretty; plus, it's still strong enough in PvZ without being broken.
Infestors are IMO somewhat underwhelming and underused and not as useful as you'd like them to be. I would like Fungal to be more targetable, not talking about dps/root changes.
That being said, I was just filling the alphabet, not thinking the changes fully through, obviously. While some of it may be useful, it's mostly more LOTV material if material at all. I just want to open discussion on the course we're sailing (pidgeonholing and raw mechanics/bo/some luck instead of diversity and creativity)
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Terran can take the time to get to their ideal army, but the trouble is that P/Z then end up with a huge bank that they can put to good use. It's getting to that second ideal army after the big battle when most terrans fall apart.
Being able to hold some mines in reserve might allow Terran to get a remax and continue the game.
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On July 19 2014 20:26 Teoita wrote:Show nested quote +On July 19 2014 19:53 Willzzz wrote:
The big problem that I see is that late game the terran doesn't have the same quality of static defence. Terran have to leave actual units behind while P/Z can rely mainly on cannons/spines/spores.
If you made Widow Mines 1 supply Terran could afford to leave more behind their lines to deal with runbys, drops, etc. without weakening their main army. Because this would only matter at 200/200 this would specifically help the late game without buffing terran early/mid game. I think Terran's main lategame problem is that they can't transition into their ideal army as quickly as the other races. In PvT ideally they'd want like 20 ghosts and 15 vikings along the rest of their bio, while sacrificing most of their scv's. That takes about 40 minutes to accomplish, as opposed to roughly 20 for Protoss. And in TvZ bio, i don't even know what exactly they are supposed to get to stop 60 banelings and a bunch of ultras... edit: @sc2toastie, why the hell woudl you want to buff fungal? we know how that one ends, and it's not pretty; plus, it's still strong enough in PvZ without being broken.
OR - you know - Terran not having a single mechanic that can buy time but not kill the opponent while doing it, so.. 
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On July 19 2014 17:21 Loccstana wrote:Show nested quote +On July 19 2014 16:40 pieroog wrote:
"Well it's a Protoss nerf so, by default, I think it's good!" - what a childish comment. as childish as "Well it's a Protoss nerf so, by default, I think it's bad!"
please, DO NOT put made up words into my mouth
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On July 19 2014 20:26 SC2Toastie wrote:
So many opportunities for balance changes that may also change gameplay for the good...
A Raw Tank Damage Buff.
B Give Bio a lategame (FC) upgrade that increases armor against AOE Attacks (Banelings, Collosi, Archon, Siege Tanks) (gives room for other buffs and allows Bio to be more effective in the lategame mass AOE battles and not end Bio in TvT)
C Overcharge becoming a channeled spell
D Tank range to 14
E Tanks move 'n shoot
F Thor redesign
G Buff Fungal, IT or especially Neural
H Make BC Viable (this makes lategame SkyMech and Carriers better probably)
I Tempest less of a hardcounter
J Reduce Mine movement speed, supply cost, damage, cost and increase burrow time - make them defensive instead of offensive.
K Zerg needs a buff verse Toss lategame to allow for a Host nerf, and a buff to PDD. Change the Hydra projectile to instant damage: lower overkill and negates PDD. Possibly add +2 vs Mechanical damage.
L Snipe Buff
M Give Sentries lategame utility (Guardian Shield functions like a Shield Battery out of combat?)
N Put more Emphasis on the lategame usage of Oracles and undo the speed buff.
O Warp Prism can warp in a maximum of 6 to 10 units at a time
P Make Charge a passive speed buff to encourage the micro.
Q find a way to make Corruptors more tactical: make Corruption reduce attack speed, move speed, armor bij 20%.
R Mine priority back to 20
S Lategame utility for Banshees.
T Reaper upgrade to receive the anti light, slightly higher HP and anti structure attack, making them a dangerous yet expensive harrassment unit.
U Remove the damn biotag on Hellbats
V Hellion buff :D!
W Allow X number of phoenix to lift massive units (5?)
X Create an upgrade to DT at Shrine (expensive) to upgrade Sneak/Stealth mode: 6 sec invisibility, 1 sec activation time, 12 sec no attacking.
Y I'd love to see Stalkers get some buff in the form of +2 damage at +3 attack instead of +1 to scale them better
Z fix fucking swarmhosts
Obviously this is not implementable etcetera, just trying to show there is sooooo so much potential in this game, but instead we keep making only half the total arsenal of units useful and have the rest be forgotten and ignored.
I'd say you want to have 75% of all units viable in each matchup.....
Our focus as a community should not be on percentages and stuff - we need to make this game more diverse and fun!
This very nice to read thrue, but with so many changes you are bount to create imbalanced game. Changing things slowly 1 by 1 is the appropriate approach i belive.
Eventhou i would love to see something like warhound and other new units implemented into the arsenal, so i could play mech when i play terran again (i switched to toss cause i was to fed up with bio play), changing a lot of things and just throw countless new options to ppl, would not create a healthy enviroment for a skill based RTS game like sc2 is, where eventhou casual players dont like this, balance is much more important than diversity, because of all tournaments going on and E-sports future, is the RTS balance vise really really really demanding genre. (as i am sure you would agree).
good day, svizcy
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Alright, here's the thing:
GUYS, is there anyone that could help me regarding the Map Editor.. ??, like not just "help", but someone being good at it too (required is designing custom units, not just making maps though)..
Have quite a few crazy stuff in my mind (funny is that I just can't get them out of my head, lol) that I'd like to try over.. o.f.c. - It might take some time - it's like a couple of months work rather than few days or weeks or so (but would probably not be a crazy amount of per-day work, like an hour to a couple of hours by-daily (every 2nd day, would like to go at it a bit slower, daily would be a too much of intensity overall))..
Hopefully - about several days of teaching/advices might work over.. Like - P.M. me if interested in "making a deal" over that, or even better - work together by "dicking around" with potential unit designs or so (and yes - being serious about this one, despite my "coarse description" of the effort - as long as it's not too much of a request of payment IMO)
(P.M. me if interested - hopefully haven't been THAT unwantful or hostile to "draw back" anyone that's good enough, And hopefully I get to make a single thing that may or may not be useful that I might've done on this forum overall )
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A realization I've came to after all this time:
Unless something DRASTIC changes, and I really mean massive changes (new unit/ability, drop-pods, etc.), TvP lategame will not "change in the right direction" any time soon. Blizzard was blunt and honest when they said they wanted a "certain" matchup to be imba (be advantageous or more areas of strength in different stages of the game) at different points in the game, i.e., Terran stronger in the mid-game and weaker in the lategame.
Take MMMVG vs. Storm/colossi/archon/tempest. The fact of the matter that the most tanky unit from the Terran has a pathetic 125HP (marauder/viking), which either melts to 1 shot from the back collossi, or lose up to 2/3 of their HP against a single storm. Money EMPs are always nice, but at a MAXIMUM that removes 1/2 of the protoss army's HP, after which +4 armor chargelots still tear away the marauders left standing even without colossi support.
There is a limit to how well you can split to minimize storm or colossi damage, after that it's all a numbers game. Blizzard needs to overhaul this match-up somehow, either by making the Terran units survive longer (collision radius, buffing HPs, etc.) or protoss AOE less effective, compensated by appropriate adjustments in the other direction as well (i.e., less DPS from Terran, and better gateway units from Protoss, etc.).
Until then, it's all about the gimmicky stuff where a Terran SCV pulls, obs snipes, drops his/her heart out, prays for money EMPS on clumped templars, etc. in order to hope to get a win. Just go back and watch some top-level TvPs; when the Terran wins, when is it EVER due to a good engagement (when both sides micro appropriately and are even economically)? 90% of time the protoss dies due to mines killing entire worker lines during fights, doom drops / nexuses snipes, or other stupid (and completely avoidable) shit like having only their only 2 obs and subsequently all their templars sniped?
TL;DR: Blizzard doesn't agree with what you want. Their answer to a weak Terran lategame in TvP will continually be to buff T's midgame strengths, so you can hope to end the game before it gets too late.
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i just like how every terran is like :
protoss nerf=always good
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Russian Federation5 Posts
Terrible, terrible changes
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EPT
