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On July 20 2014 01:10 LSN wrote:
"But since I have never seen Blizzard revert their once-applied changes (big ones, at least), I don't think it's ever gonna happen.
If I would try to make it short: with whatever balance, Terrans still win tournaments (TaeJa for example), and no person that is not playing Terran, not even Blizzard, will ever agree that Terran players (especially the very top) are a lot better than their Protoss/Zerg counterparts."
...
Play some PvZ dude. It is actually the the best matchup in terms of strategy, adaption and variety, and not only massing bio every game like the TvZ/P matchups. Therefore, I am quite sure playing PvZ requires overall the most skill in SC2 if you do not just refer on splitting marines when talking about skill.
;-)
You will never change and your nonesense and lack of insight only shows more the more you post. But come on, continue to argue against the pros even when the majority of Zergs and Protoss believe Terrans are too weak. Valentino Rossi could win races on a bad motobike, didn't make that motobike amazing, but him.
Thats why INnoVatioN, TaeJa & a few others at least manage to keep up, if not always. Imagine them having the same options, good god, it would actually be competition!
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I agree that there are parts of zvp that are better than tvp/tvz but it cant touch tvt 
(from viewing, I never play zvp)
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On July 19 2014 10:00 Varroth wrote:Show nested quote +On July 19 2014 09:43 Faust852 wrote:On July 19 2014 09:36 Nebuchad wrote:
"If I would try to make it short: with whatever balance, Terrans still win tournaments (TaeJa for example), and no person that is not playing Terran, not even Blizzard, will ever agree that Terran players (especially the very top) are a lot better than their Protoss/Zerg counterparts."
Yeah, Happy, the best terrans are so good that a balanced state would have them win all the time. Good to know. This is a frequent enough view but I didn't expect someone as good as him to have it. It's almost impossible to prove that what he says is true, but it's generally a shared views among terrans. I personally think that top top tiers terrans are overall better than their couunterparts zergs and protoss. But meh, there is no real evidence so it's probably a general bias. Terrans just look flashier due to their micro
Yes, and that made the gameplay feel more exciting and fun to watch.
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Calm down naruto. Claiming that Terran players are naturally superior to the players of other races and everybody is failing to see this is just the usual nonsense and arrogance that you and other terrans were arguing for years. I just have to question this.
Especially you should realize that this statement of empire.happy was not really related to balance.
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On July 20 2014 01:20 LSN wrote:
Calm down naruto. Claiming that Terran players are naturally superior to the players of other races and everybody is failing to see this is just the usual nonsense and arrogance that you and other terrans were arguing for years. I just have to question this.
Especially you should realize that this statement of empire.happy was not really related to balance.
I never claimed Terrans being naturally superior. I am claiming there are more than just 4-5 Terrans out there that are very capable of playing the game on the level at least 20-30 Protoss and Zerg manage to play it on and I claim those 4-5 Terrans that manage to be on top and still win are exceptional talents.
I never said there is no Protoss or Zerg player talented, I would never dare to say so, but you are just an uninformed tool that goofs around Teamliquid. I don't even want to quote what you previously what on the balance discussion about females having an advantage over males - or was it the other way around? :D
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On July 20 2014 01:20 LSN wrote:
Calm down naruto. Claiming that Terran players are naturally superior to the players of other races and everybody is failing to see this is just the usual nonsense and arrogance that you and other terrans were arguing for years. I just have to question this.
Especially you should realize that this statement of empire.happy was not really related to balance.
Everything you say makes zero sense. I still waiting for that "game deciding" 8 marine medivac push on standard 2 base play that you see "all the time".
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Happy is getting a massive pass for what he said, honestly. I knew and expected from the start that he wouldn't get the Rain treatment, that's fine, but to attack the people who point out he's being ridic... That's kind of bad.
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Now stick to the topic and this is what the pros think/said about the new balance patches and not about you naruto.
I quote this again:
"no person that is not playing Terran, not even Blizzard, will ever agree that Terran players (especially the very top) are a lot better than their Protoss/Zerg counterparts"
I say that this is wrong and the top 5 of each race are equally skilled. Easy as this. I dont even know why you are that offended Naruto and try to attack me, it is just bullshit what happy says there.
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On July 20 2014 01:32 LSN wrote:
Now stick to the topic and this is what the pros think/said about the new balance patches and not about you naruto.
I quote this again:
"no person that is not playing Terran, not even Blizzard, will ever agree that Terran players (especially the very top) are a lot better than their Protoss/Zerg counterparts"
I say that this is wrong and the top 5 of each race are equally skilled. Easy as this. I dont even know why you are that offended Naruto and try to attack me, it is just bullshit what happy says there.
And how exactly can you prove that at any given time, the top5 players from each race are equally skilled?
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On July 20 2014 01:37 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On July 20 2014 01:32 LSN wrote:
Now stick to the topic and this is what the pros think/said about the new balance patches and not about you naruto.
I quote this again:
"no person that is not playing Terran, not even Blizzard, will ever agree that Terran players (especially the very top) are a lot better than their Protoss/Zerg counterparts"
I say that this is wrong and the top 5 of each race are equally skilled. Easy as this. I dont even know why you are that offended Naruto and try to attack me, it is just bullshit what happy says there. And how exactly can you prove that at any given time, the top5 players from each race are equally skilled?
It is just highly likely when following common rules of statistics. Can you prove the opposite btw?
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On July 20 2014 01:32 LSN wrote:
Now stick to the topic and this is what the pros think/said about the new balance patches and not about you naruto.
I quote this again:
"no person that is not playing Terran, not even Blizzard, will ever agree that Terran players (especially the very top) are a lot better than their Protoss/Zerg counterparts"
I say that this is wrong and the top 5 of each race are equally skilled. Easy as this. I dont even know why you are that offended Naruto and try to attack me, it is just bullshit what happy says there.
Depends on how you define skill. Effort of playing Terran is higher than the effort of playing Protoss I would dare to say. Protoss has a hard time if Terran is actually very good - if the Terran has slightest mistakes, there is already a big problem of creating pressure, which will snowball in TvP for example.
Ofcourse, you would need to have deeper understanding of the game which you don't. As mentioned, no one said (besides Happy) that there is no godlike Zerg od Protoss, but across the top level Terrans or pro-level Terrans, I dare to say that the effort of playing the race takes its toll on them. Do you want to tell me there are 5 Terrans overall capable of playing on the highest level, because seemingly all other talented people in the world c hose Zerg/Protoss? You have to be kidding me
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On July 20 2014 01:38 NarutO wrote:Show nested quote +On July 20 2014 01:32 LSN wrote:
Now stick to the topic and this is what the pros think/said about the new balance patches and not about you naruto.
I quote this again:
"no person that is not playing Terran, not even Blizzard, will ever agree that Terran players (especially the very top) are a lot better than their Protoss/Zerg counterparts"
I say that this is wrong and the top 5 of each race are equally skilled. Easy as this. I dont even know why you are that offended Naruto and try to attack me, it is just bullshit what happy says there. Depends on how you define skill. Effort of playing Terran is higher than the effort of playing Protoss I would dare to say. Protoss has a hard time if Terran is actually very good - if the Terran has slightest mistakes, there is already a big problem of creating pressure, which will snowball in TvP for example. Ofcourse, you would need to have deeper understanding of the game which you don't. As mentioned, no one said (besides Happy) that there is no godlike Zerg od Protoss, but across the top level Terrans or pro-level Terrans, I dare to say that the effort of playing the race takes its toll on them. Do you want to tell me there are 5 Terrans overall capable of playing on the highest level, because seemingly all other talented people in the world c hose Zerg/Protoss? You have to be kidding me
This is getting on a dumb level as the only thing you obviously want to do is attacking me. nnty & bye, forum admins should have taken care of you long time ago! :D
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On July 20 2014 01:38 NarutO wrote:Show nested quote +On July 20 2014 01:32 LSN wrote:
Now stick to the topic and this is what the pros think/said about the new balance patches and not about you naruto.
I quote this again:
"no person that is not playing Terran, not even Blizzard, will ever agree that Terran players (especially the very top) are a lot better than their Protoss/Zerg counterparts"
I say that this is wrong and the top 5 of each race are equally skilled. Easy as this. I dont even know why you are that offended Naruto and try to attack me, it is just bullshit what happy says there. Depends on how you define skill. Effort of playing Terran is higher than the effort of playing Protoss I would dare to say. Protoss has a hard time if Terran is actually very good - if the Terran has slightest mistakes, there is already a big problem of creating pressure, which will snowball in TvP for example. Ofcourse, you would need to have deeper understanding of the game which you don't. As mentioned, no one said (besides Happy) that there is no godlike Zerg od Protoss, but across the top level Terrans or pro-level Terrans, I dare to say that the effort of playing the race takes its toll on them. Do you want to tell me there are 5 Terrans overall capable of playing on the highest level, because seemingly all other talented people in the world c hose Zerg/Protoss? You have to be kidding me
You connect two things that aren't related in order to make your argument look better. The fact that there are terrans still performing well while Z and P are better races than T doesn't mean that the top T players are better skill-wise than top Z-P players. I'm just going to go with the most likely hypothesis that is top players across all races are of similar skill level (say top 5 T, P, Z). P players are winning the most followed by Z and T players are winning the least.
Your argument is as likely as the one of those who claim that T/Z top players are all in a slump while P players became very good at the exact same time.
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On July 20 2014 01:43 Karpfen wrote:Show nested quote +On July 20 2014 01:38 NarutO wrote:On July 20 2014 01:32 LSN wrote:
Now stick to the topic and this is what the pros think/said about the new balance patches and not about you naruto.
I quote this again:
"no person that is not playing Terran, not even Blizzard, will ever agree that Terran players (especially the very top) are a lot better than their Protoss/Zerg counterparts"
I say that this is wrong and the top 5 of each race are equally skilled. Easy as this. I dont even know why you are that offended Naruto and try to attack me, it is just bullshit what happy says there. Depends on how you define skill. Effort of playing Terran is higher than the effort of playing Protoss I would dare to say. Protoss has a hard time if Terran is actually very good - if the Terran has slightest mistakes, there is already a big problem of creating pressure, which will snowball in TvP for example. Ofcourse, you would need to have deeper understanding of the game which you don't. As mentioned, no one said (besides Happy) that there is no godlike Zerg od Protoss, but across the top level Terrans or pro-level Terrans, I dare to say that the effort of playing the race takes its toll on them. Do you want to tell me there are 5 Terrans overall capable of playing on the highest level, because seemingly all other talented people in the world c hose Zerg/Protoss? You have to be kidding me You connect two things that aren't related in order to make your argument look better. The fact that there are terrans still performing well while Z and P are better races than T doesn't mean that the top T players are better skill-wise than top Z-P players. I'm just going to go with the most likely hypothesis that is top players across all races are of similar skill level (say top 5 T, P, Z). P players are winning the most followed by Z and T players are winning the least.
If the average Protoss and Zerg player across progaming is more successful compared to the Terran counterpart, yet keeps losing to the same top Terrans over and over, it seems like those few Terrans that manage to win are in fact - better. I have never compared "top 3" Terran vs "top 3" Protoss. I don't believe you can break it down to such low numbers , but in average if you talk about progaming you can.
As you can see, I am not connecting things to make them look better. If your argument is right the only reason for Protoss or Zerg winning a lot more tournaments would actually be absence of Terrans, lack of Terran players or bad luck. And you surely don't want to tell me that there are no Terran players present in big tournaments, we have a lack of players overall or simply bad luck?
If you checked the past in which Protoss didn't "win" a ton, we at least had a lot of presence of Protoss in the finals in which they seemingly choked. If I remember corretly, Terran and Zerg did win, especially Terran did win a lot, but it was the same Terrans all over again and it were a lot of different Protoss hitting the finals in which they lost.
Now its not just not having a Terran in the final or semifinal, but not even close to those ranks and especially in numbers compared to Z/P.
On July 20 2014 01:42 LSN wrote:Show nested quote +On July 20 2014 01:38 NarutO wrote:On July 20 2014 01:32 LSN wrote:
Now stick to the topic and this is what the pros think/said about the new balance patches and not about you naruto.
I quote this again:
"no person that is not playing Terran, not even Blizzard, will ever agree that Terran players (especially the very top) are a lot better than their Protoss/Zerg counterparts"
I say that this is wrong and the top 5 of each race are equally skilled. Easy as this. I dont even know why you are that offended Naruto and try to attack me, it is just bullshit what happy says there. Depends on how you define skill. Effort of playing Terran is higher than the effort of playing Protoss I would dare to say. Protoss has a hard time if Terran is actually very good - if the Terran has slightest mistakes, there is already a big problem of creating pressure, which will snowball in TvP for example. Ofcourse, you would need to have deeper understanding of the game which you don't. As mentioned, no one said (besides Happy) that there is no godlike Zerg od Protoss, but across the top level Terrans or pro-level Terrans, I dare to say that the effort of playing the race takes its toll on them. Do you want to tell me there are 5 Terrans overall capable of playing on the highest level, because seemingly all other talented people in the world c hose Zerg/Protoss? You have to be kidding me This is getting on a dumb level as the only thing you obviously want to do is attacking me. nnty & bye, forum admins should have taken care of you long time ago! :D
Same behaviour like in the past. Cannot challenge the points made "see you man, not talking to you" :3
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On July 20 2014 01:38 LSN wrote:Show nested quote +On July 20 2014 01:37 TheDwf wrote:On July 20 2014 01:32 LSN wrote:
Now stick to the topic and this is what the pros think/said about the new balance patches and not about you naruto.
I quote this again:
"no person that is not playing Terran, not even Blizzard, will ever agree that Terran players (especially the very top) are a lot better than their Protoss/Zerg counterparts"
I say that this is wrong and the top 5 of each race are equally skilled. Easy as this. I dont even know why you are that offended Naruto and try to attack me, it is just bullshit what happy says there. And how exactly can you prove that at any given time, the top5 players from each race are equally skilled? It is just highly likely when following common rules of statistics.
Why? Globally there is no reason to believe otherwise, but if we take the very few individuals at the top why should we make the assumption that Maru + Bogus + TaeJa = soO + Soulkey + Life = Zest + herO + sOs? (Replace with whoever you think belongs to the topX of the race at any given time.)
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On July 20 2014 01:38 LSN wrote:Show nested quote +On July 20 2014 01:37 TheDwf wrote:On July 20 2014 01:32 LSN wrote:
Now stick to the topic and this is what the pros think/said about the new balance patches and not about you naruto.
I quote this again:
"no person that is not playing Terran, not even Blizzard, will ever agree that Terran players (especially the very top) are a lot better than their Protoss/Zerg counterparts"
I say that this is wrong and the top 5 of each race are equally skilled. Easy as this. I dont even know why you are that offended Naruto and try to attack me, it is just bullshit what happy says there. And how exactly can you prove that at any given time, the top5 players from each race are equally skilled? It is just highly likely when following common rules of statistics. Can you prove the opposite btw?
Well it's unlikely that the top 5 are exactly equaly skilled, but obviously one cannot go around and assume that T's are better than P's (or vice versa). When you go down that line, then all statistical analysis are just gonna result in a ton of bias.
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On July 20 2014 01:50 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On July 20 2014 01:38 LSN wrote:On July 20 2014 01:37 TheDwf wrote:On July 20 2014 01:32 LSN wrote:
Now stick to the topic and this is what the pros think/said about the new balance patches and not about you naruto.
I quote this again:
"no person that is not playing Terran, not even Blizzard, will ever agree that Terran players (especially the very top) are a lot better than their Protoss/Zerg counterparts"
I say that this is wrong and the top 5 of each race are equally skilled. Easy as this. I dont even know why you are that offended Naruto and try to attack me, it is just bullshit what happy says there. And how exactly can you prove that at any given time, the top5 players from each race are equally skilled? It is just highly likely when following common rules of statistics. Why? Globally there is no reason to believe otherwise, but if we take the very few individuals at the top why should we make the assumption that Maru + Bogus + TaeJa = soO + Soulkey + Life = Zest + herO + sOs? (Replace with whoever you think belongs to the topX of the race at any given time.)
The burden of proof is on you, not on us. What Happy is arguing implies that in a balanced state, terran should win just about everything, because they're superior players. Well we're not going to just take his word for it, I'm sure you can imagine why.
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On July 20 2014 01:54 Nebuchad wrote:Show nested quote +On July 20 2014 01:50 TheDwf wrote:On July 20 2014 01:38 LSN wrote:On July 20 2014 01:37 TheDwf wrote:On July 20 2014 01:32 LSN wrote:
Now stick to the topic and this is what the pros think/said about the new balance patches and not about you naruto.
I quote this again:
"no person that is not playing Terran, not even Blizzard, will ever agree that Terran players (especially the very top) are a lot better than their Protoss/Zerg counterparts"
I say that this is wrong and the top 5 of each race are equally skilled. Easy as this. I dont even know why you are that offended Naruto and try to attack me, it is just bullshit what happy says there. And how exactly can you prove that at any given time, the top5 players from each race are equally skilled? It is just highly likely when following common rules of statistics. Why? Globally there is no reason to believe otherwise, but if we take the very few individuals at the top why should we make the assumption that Maru + Bogus + TaeJa = soO + Soulkey + Life = Zest + herO + sOs? (Replace with whoever you think belongs to the topX of the race at any given time.) The burden of proof is on you, not on us. What Happy is arguing implies that in a balanced state, terran should win just about everything, because they're superior players. Well we're not going to just take his word for it, I'm sure you can imagine why.
No. The burden of proof is on the one stating "I say that (...) top 5 of each race are equally skilled" because he's the one asserting something. I am merely stating it is probably impossible to know exactly. I am not claiming that top players from race A are better than those from race B or C.
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On July 20 2014 01:54 Nebuchad wrote:Show nested quote +On July 20 2014 01:50 TheDwf wrote:On July 20 2014 01:38 LSN wrote:On July 20 2014 01:37 TheDwf wrote:On July 20 2014 01:32 LSN wrote:
Now stick to the topic and this is what the pros think/said about the new balance patches and not about you naruto.
I quote this again:
"no person that is not playing Terran, not even Blizzard, will ever agree that Terran players (especially the very top) are a lot better than their Protoss/Zerg counterparts"
I say that this is wrong and the top 5 of each race are equally skilled. Easy as this. I dont even know why you are that offended Naruto and try to attack me, it is just bullshit what happy says there. And how exactly can you prove that at any given time, the top5 players from each race are equally skilled? It is just highly likely when following common rules of statistics. Why? Globally there is no reason to believe otherwise, but if we take the very few individuals at the top why should we make the assumption that Maru + Bogus + TaeJa = soO + Soulkey + Life = Zest + herO + sOs? (Replace with whoever you think belongs to the topX of the race at any given time.) The burden of proof is on you, not on us. What Happy is arguing implies that in a balanced state, terran should win just about everything, because they're superior players. Well we're not going to just take his word for it, I'm sure you can imagine why.
The same game works on you guys. The burden of proof is on you - as you are winning everything but saying that your race isn't too strong neither Terran too weak. Isn't that implying that the players are superior?
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Well P is the easiest to play race. Nevertheless skill does not necessarily (imo not at all) refer to how easy a race is to handle in the concurrent balance situation. There is neither a proof for nor against it and therefore I guess we have to go with what is likely and that is that the top players of all races are about on equal skill level. You can't blame the protoss for the fact that his race is easier to play than terran or zerg these days.
On July 20 2014 01:54 Nebuchad wrote:Show nested quote +On July 20 2014 01:50 TheDwf wrote:On July 20 2014 01:38 LSN wrote:On July 20 2014 01:37 TheDwf wrote:On July 20 2014 01:32 LSN wrote:
Now stick to the topic and this is what the pros think/said about the new balance patches and not about you naruto.
I quote this again:
"no person that is not playing Terran, not even Blizzard, will ever agree that Terran players (especially the very top) are a lot better than their Protoss/Zerg counterparts"
I say that this is wrong and the top 5 of each race are equally skilled. Easy as this. I dont even know why you are that offended Naruto and try to attack me, it is just bullshit what happy says there. And how exactly can you prove that at any given time, the top5 players from each race are equally skilled? It is just highly likely when following common rules of statistics. Why? Globally there is no reason to believe otherwise, but if we take the very few individuals at the top why should we make the assumption that Maru + Bogus + TaeJa = soO + Soulkey + Life = Zest + herO + sOs? (Replace with whoever you think belongs to the topX of the race at any given time.) The burden of proof is on you, not on us. What Happy is arguing implies that in a balanced state, terran should win just about everything, because they're superior players. Well we're not going to just take his word for it, I'm sure you can imagine why.
Furthermore this is exactly right.
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EPT
