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As you can see, I am not connecting things to make them look better. If your argument is right the only reason for Protoss or Zerg winning a lot more tournaments would actually be absence of Terrans, lack of Terran players or bad luck. And you surely don't want to tell me that there are no Terran players present in big tournaments, we have a lack of players overall or simply bad luck?
If you checked the past in which Protoss didn't "win" a ton, we at least had a lot of presence of Protoss in the finals in which they seemingly choked. If I remember corretly, Terran and Zerg did win, especially Terran did win a lot, but it was the same Terrans all over again and it were a lot of different Protoss hitting the finals in which they lost.
This is more likely due to the more coinflippy nature of protoss matchups (in WOL especially), where terran has always been a more mechanically focussed race. That resulted in skilled terrans more consistently being able to get far in tournaments while skilled protosses were more likely to drop out due to variance.
But this isn't an argument to claim that 5 protoss = better than top 5 terrans, but rather that it is easier to identify the best terrans than the best protosses.
No. The burden of proof is on the one stating "I say that (...) top 5 of each race are equally skilled" because he's the one asserting something. I am merely stating it is probably impossible to know exactly. I am not claiming that top players from race A are better than those from race B or C.
No it's not. We have no reason to assume otherwise, and if there are are no obvious differences in the selection of players choosing protoss, terran or zerg, then the average zerg, terran or protoss should have the same skill, and thus on average (over a long period of time) the top 5 for each race should be equally skilled.
That doens't mean that they are equally skilled at all points in times, but rather that we have no way reliable way of telling when there is a discrepancy in skill level. Thus, we must assume in any point in time that they are equally skilled (unless evidence points to the contrary).
Further, it was Happy who started making the claim, but he came with no arguments to supoprt it. All LSN did was to bring that up.
At last, how many times have I over the last month mentioned that if we assume average terran = average protoss.... then statistics shows terran = UP.
But you have never ever said anything against that, despite the extremely unlikelyhood that you haven't read it. But then when LSN points it up as an argument "against" terran, then you start questioning his assumption and demand that he comes with proof. That's a pretty big double-standard there.
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On July 20 2014 01:59 LSN wrote:Well P is the easiest to play race. Nevertheless skill does not necessarily (imo not at all) refer to how easy a race is to handle in the concurrent balance situation. There is neither a proof for nor against it and therefore I guess we have to with what is likely and that is that the top players of all races are about on equal skill level. You can't blame the protoss for the fact that his race is easier to play than terran or zerg these days. Show nested quote +On July 20 2014 01:54 Nebuchad wrote:On July 20 2014 01:50 TheDwf wrote:On July 20 2014 01:38 LSN wrote:On July 20 2014 01:37 TheDwf wrote:On July 20 2014 01:32 LSN wrote:
Now stick to the topic and this is what the pros think/said about the new balance patches and not about you naruto.
I quote this again:
"no person that is not playing Terran, not even Blizzard, will ever agree that Terran players (especially the very top) are a lot better than their Protoss/Zerg counterparts"
I say that this is wrong and the top 5 of each race are equally skilled. Easy as this. I dont even know why you are that offended Naruto and try to attack me, it is just bullshit what happy says there. And how exactly can you prove that at any given time, the top5 players from each race are equally skilled? It is just highly likely when following common rules of statistics. Why? Globally there is no reason to believe otherwise, but if we take the very few individuals at the top why should we make the assumption that Maru + Bogus + TaeJa = soO + Soulkey + Life = Zest + herO + sOs? (Replace with whoever you think belongs to the topX of the race at any given time.) The burden of proof is on you, not on us. What Happy is arguing implies that in a balanced state, terran should win just about everything, because they're superior players. Well we're not going to just take his word for it, I'm sure you can imagine why. Furthermore this is exactly right.
If you are saying that Protoss is easier to play, doesn't that make a Terran that can challenge a Protoss on the highest level more skilled, as his race takes more effort to play  ?
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In a deeper sense it does not. The player might have the same skill as the terran even tho he does not need to use all of it when playing against terran while the terran does. But you guys also forget that playing z/p is not only about playing vs t. As I tried to imply in my original post, ZvP is quita a demanding and skill heavy matchup for both of the involved parties.
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On July 20 2014 01:54 Nebuchad wrote:Show nested quote +On July 20 2014 01:50 TheDwf wrote:On July 20 2014 01:38 LSN wrote:On July 20 2014 01:37 TheDwf wrote:On July 20 2014 01:32 LSN wrote:
Now stick to the topic and this is what the pros think/said about the new balance patches and not about you naruto.
I quote this again:
"no person that is not playing Terran, not even Blizzard, will ever agree that Terran players (especially the very top) are a lot better than their Protoss/Zerg counterparts"
I say that this is wrong and the top 5 of each race are equally skilled. Easy as this. I dont even know why you are that offended Naruto and try to attack me, it is just bullshit what happy says there. And how exactly can you prove that at any given time, the top5 players from each race are equally skilled? It is just highly likely when following common rules of statistics. Why? Globally there is no reason to believe otherwise, but if we take the very few individuals at the top why should we make the assumption that Maru + Bogus + TaeJa = soO + Soulkey + Life = Zest + herO + sOs? (Replace with whoever you think belongs to the topX of the race at any given time.) The burden of proof is on you, not on us. What Happy is arguing implies that in a balanced state, terran should win just about everything, because they're superior players. Well we're not going to just take his word for it, I'm sure you can imagine why.
And about that Happy's sentence, I read it like 15 times already and I'm still confused on how to interpret it.
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On July 20 2014 01:48 NarutO wrote:Show nested quote +On July 20 2014 01:43 Karpfen wrote:On July 20 2014 01:38 NarutO wrote:On July 20 2014 01:32 LSN wrote:
Now stick to the topic and this is what the pros think/said about the new balance patches and not about you naruto.
I quote this again:
"no person that is not playing Terran, not even Blizzard, will ever agree that Terran players (especially the very top) are a lot better than their Protoss/Zerg counterparts"
I say that this is wrong and the top 5 of each race are equally skilled. Easy as this. I dont even know why you are that offended Naruto and try to attack me, it is just bullshit what happy says there. Depends on how you define skill. Effort of playing Terran is higher than the effort of playing Protoss I would dare to say. Protoss has a hard time if Terran is actually very good - if the Terran has slightest mistakes, there is already a big problem of creating pressure, which will snowball in TvP for example. Ofcourse, you would need to have deeper understanding of the game which you don't. As mentioned, no one said (besides Happy) that there is no godlike Zerg od Protoss, but across the top level Terrans or pro-level Terrans, I dare to say that the effort of playing the race takes its toll on them. Do you want to tell me there are 5 Terrans overall capable of playing on the highest level, because seemingly all other talented people in the world c hose Zerg/Protoss? You have to be kidding me You connect two things that aren't related in order to make your argument look better. The fact that there are terrans still performing well while Z and P are better races than T doesn't mean that the top T players are better skill-wise than top Z-P players. I'm just going to go with the most likely hypothesis that is top players across all races are of similar skill level (say top 5 T, P, Z). P players are winning the most followed by Z and T players are winning the least. If the average Protoss and Zerg player across progaming is more successful compared to the Terran counterpart, yet keeps losing to the same top Terrans over and over, it seems like those few Terrans that manage to win are in fact - better. I have never compared "top 3" Terran vs "top 3" Protoss. I don't believe you can break it down to such low numbers , but in average if you talk about progaming you can. As you can see, I am not connecting things to make them look better. If your argument is right the only reason for Protoss or Zerg winning a lot more tournaments would actually be absence of Terrans, lack of Terran players or bad luck. And you surely don't want to tell me that there are no Terran players present in big tournaments, we have a lack of players overall or simply bad luck? If you checked the past in which Protoss didn't "win" a ton, we at least had a lot of presence of Protoss in the finals in which they seemingly choked. If I remember corretly, Terran and Zerg did win, especially Terran did win a lot, but it was the same Terrans all over again and it were a lot of different Protoss hitting the finals in which they lost. Now its not just not having a Terran in the final or semifinal, but not even close to those ranks and especially in numbers compared to Z/P. Show nested quote +On July 20 2014 01:42 LSN wrote:On July 20 2014 01:38 NarutO wrote:On July 20 2014 01:32 LSN wrote:
Now stick to the topic and this is what the pros think/said about the new balance patches and not about you naruto.
I quote this again:
"no person that is not playing Terran, not even Blizzard, will ever agree that Terran players (especially the very top) are a lot better than their Protoss/Zerg counterparts"
I say that this is wrong and the top 5 of each race are equally skilled. Easy as this. I dont even know why you are that offended Naruto and try to attack me, it is just bullshit what happy says there. Depends on how you define skill. Effort of playing Terran is higher than the effort of playing Protoss I would dare to say. Protoss has a hard time if Terran is actually very good - if the Terran has slightest mistakes, there is already a big problem of creating pressure, which will snowball in TvP for example. Ofcourse, you would need to have deeper understanding of the game which you don't. As mentioned, no one said (besides Happy) that there is no godlike Zerg od Protoss, but across the top level Terrans or pro-level Terrans, I dare to say that the effort of playing the race takes its toll on them. Do you want to tell me there are 5 Terrans overall capable of playing on the highest level, because seemingly all other talented people in the world c hose Zerg/Protoss? You have to be kidding me This is getting on a dumb level as the only thing you obviously want to do is attacking me. nnty & bye, forum admins should have taken care of you long time ago! :D Same behaviour like in the past. Cannot challenge the points made "see you man, not talking to you" :3
I stated clearly, for those familiar with English, that the reason for less T result is the weakness of terran. You are backing Happy's argument of T progamers being more skilled than Z/P especially at the very top..very top. You said top T progamers beat average P progamers while, said average P progamers, beat their terran counterparts. Now this in no way suggests what Happy said. The fact that top T players beat average players of other races does not mean that they are better players skill wise compared to P and Z players especially at the very top.
Imagine this scenario: there are archers and gunmen. Now, if they were to engage in a duel an average gunman would probably be victorious against an average archer. Some very very talented archers, however, would manage to beat the average gunman but would probably lose to very very talented gunmen. Now, in which way can I logically infer that the best gunmen would lose to the best archers if they were to use the same weapon? (obviously not counting their practice with bow/gun). If you answer this question convincingly it is possible to back up Happy's argument without looking very biased and illogical.
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On July 20 2014 01:58 NarutO wrote:Show nested quote +On July 20 2014 01:54 Nebuchad wrote:On July 20 2014 01:50 TheDwf wrote:On July 20 2014 01:38 LSN wrote:On July 20 2014 01:37 TheDwf wrote:On July 20 2014 01:32 LSN wrote:
Now stick to the topic and this is what the pros think/said about the new balance patches and not about you naruto.
I quote this again:
"no person that is not playing Terran, not even Blizzard, will ever agree that Terran players (especially the very top) are a lot better than their Protoss/Zerg counterparts"
I say that this is wrong and the top 5 of each race are equally skilled. Easy as this. I dont even know why you are that offended Naruto and try to attack me, it is just bullshit what happy says there. And how exactly can you prove that at any given time, the top5 players from each race are equally skilled? It is just highly likely when following common rules of statistics. Why? Globally there is no reason to believe otherwise, but if we take the very few individuals at the top why should we make the assumption that Maru + Bogus + TaeJa = soO + Soulkey + Life = Zest + herO + sOs? (Replace with whoever you think belongs to the topX of the race at any given time.) The burden of proof is on you, not on us. What Happy is arguing implies that in a balanced state, terran should win just about everything, because they're superior players. Well we're not going to just take his word for it, I'm sure you can imagine why. The same game works on you guys. The burden of proof is on you - as you are winning everything but saying that your race isn't too strong neither Terran too weak. Isn't that implying that the players are superior?
In what universe did I say terran wasn't weak? I don't know if you've been following, but terran is getting buffed these days, and everyone agrees with the buff...
Dwf: the assertion was made by Happy initially, come on...
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On July 20 2014 02:03 LSN wrote:
In a deeper sense it does not. The player might have the same skill as the terran even tho he does not need to use all of it when playing against terran while the terran does.
Well - nerfing the race or buffing Terran would be the right call then. To increase the potential of Protoss and/or give the option to a really skilled PRotoss/Zerg to actually show it and compete with Terrans on equal terms. The result is either Protoss players falling down, because they were where they are because of the easier race OR Protoss players sticking around and/or rising. All is possible.
No matter how you turn it - buff to Terran or nerf to Protoss the way you put it is the right call.
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On July 20 2014 02:05 NarutO wrote:Show nested quote +On July 20 2014 02:03 LSN wrote:
In a deeper sense it does not. The player might have the same skill as the terran even tho he does not need to use all of it when playing against terran while the terran does. Well - nerfing the race or buffing Terran would be the right call then. To increase the potential of Protoss and/or give the option to a really skilled PRotoss/Zerg to actually show it and compete with Terrans on equal terms. The result is either Protoss players falling down, because they were where they are because of the easier race OR Protoss players sticking around and/or rising. All is possible. No matter how you turn it - buff to Terran or nerf to Protoss the way you put it is the right call.
Btw. this was a hypothesis following the assumption of you that protoss requires less skill to play. I did it to just show up that even if it is true, this has no connection to the actual skill of players.
Another hypothesis is that this what makes playing terran more difficult to play than protoss is not related to skill (in the original sense) but mainly to mechanics (e.g. low apm). Of course I know that mechanics are a major part of SC2 skill. But I believe that all korean pros are capable of releasing similar levels of mechanics. Just the protoss does not need it that much. This brings us back to the first hypothesis.
Also the amount of mistakes a player can do or not do, the amount of intuitive gameplay, the amount of great moves a player can do (etc.), does not necessarily relate on how easy a race is to play, which is also for sure an expression of skill. Explanation: Stuff like awareness, attention, and doing the right thing in the right moment decide alot about the outcome of many games. No matter how much more difficult terran is to play, in these short situations that can decide everything all races are about equal imo. Sniping/emping templars or feedbacking/psiing ghosts is about equally up there I'd say.
I do want to mention again that I support terran getting some lategame transitions and buffs and protoss needs something that makes it not "that easy" to play and win. I feel like zerg is right inbetween these two and due to larva management mechanics not that easily comparable to the other two tho.
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On July 20 2014 02:04 Nebuchad wrote:Show nested quote +On July 20 2014 01:58 NarutO wrote:On July 20 2014 01:54 Nebuchad wrote:On July 20 2014 01:50 TheDwf wrote:On July 20 2014 01:38 LSN wrote:On July 20 2014 01:37 TheDwf wrote:On July 20 2014 01:32 LSN wrote:
Now stick to the topic and this is what the pros think/said about the new balance patches and not about you naruto.
I quote this again:
"no person that is not playing Terran, not even Blizzard, will ever agree that Terran players (especially the very top) are a lot better than their Protoss/Zerg counterparts"
I say that this is wrong and the top 5 of each race are equally skilled. Easy as this. I dont even know why you are that offended Naruto and try to attack me, it is just bullshit what happy says there. And how exactly can you prove that at any given time, the top5 players from each race are equally skilled? It is just highly likely when following common rules of statistics. Why? Globally there is no reason to believe otherwise, but if we take the very few individuals at the top why should we make the assumption that Maru + Bogus + TaeJa = soO + Soulkey + Life = Zest + herO + sOs? (Replace with whoever you think belongs to the topX of the race at any given time.) The burden of proof is on you, not on us. What Happy is arguing implies that in a balanced state, terran should win just about everything, because they're superior players. Well we're not going to just take his word for it, I'm sure you can imagine why. The same game works on you guys. The burden of proof is on you - as you are winning everything but saying that your race isn't too strong neither Terran too weak. Isn't that implying that the players are superior? In what universe did I say terran wasn't weak? I don't know if you've been following, but terran is getting buffed these days, and everyone agrees with the buff... Dwf: the assertion was made by Happy initially, come on...
Yeh, this is such an insane argument. Especially since terrans challenging the assumption of equally skilled doens't even bring them any "favours" at all. Just maintaining the assumption implies that terran is in fact UP statistically. There is no need to go into a hypothetical argument where we imagine terrans being buffed and getting similar results as toss/zergs, and then not being strong enough, because they are just better players and should have better results.
That's such a "thin" line to walk on, because protoss players and zergs could easily say the same thing: "You terrans are just bad, and thus doesn't deserve to win games". How can you ever discuss balance when you can make these random assumptions and then claim that it is the other side who must proof that they are equally skilled.
To me, this is all about consistency, if you wanna put out lack of results and underpresentation as an argumentat that terran is UP, then you have to make the equally skilled assumptions. You cannot go around challenging assumptions when the assumption doens't benefit you and then keep the assumption when it benefits your argument. That's the definiton of double-standard.
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On July 20 2014 02:12 Hider wrote:
That's such a "thin" line to walk on, because protoss players and zergs could easily say the same thing: "You terrans are just bad, and thus doesn't deserve to win games". How can you ever discuss balance when you can make these random assumptions and then claim that it is the other side who must proof that they are equally skilled.
Yes.
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Shouldn't you guys get back on topic? You're nitpicking and ignoring each other and have had 2 pages of discussion not related to the topic at hand.
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On July 20 2014 02:33 SC2Toastie wrote:
Shouldn't you guys get back on topic? You're nitpicking and ignoring each other and have had 2 pages of discussion not related to the topic at hand.
What is there to discuss really?
I think it's more important to stand up against clear usage of bias/double-standard since that doens't belong in serious discussions.
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On July 20 2014 02:36 Hider wrote:Show nested quote +On July 20 2014 02:33 SC2Toastie wrote:
Shouldn't you guys get back on topic? You're nitpicking and ignoring each other and have had 2 pages of discussion not related to the topic at hand.
What is there to discuss really? I think it's more important to stand up against clear usage of bias/double-standard since that doens't belong in serious discussions.
Report it to the mods, maybe make a comment on it, but dont drag the thread down with you?
You might discuss, I dont know, the opinions of pro players on the proposed balance changes?
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On July 20 2014 02:39 SC2Toastie wrote:Show nested quote +On July 20 2014 02:36 Hider wrote:On July 20 2014 02:33 SC2Toastie wrote:
Shouldn't you guys get back on topic? You're nitpicking and ignoring each other and have had 2 pages of discussion not related to the topic at hand.
What is there to discuss really? I think it's more important to stand up against clear usage of bias/double-standard since that doens't belong in serious discussions. You might discuss, I dont know, the opinions of pro players on the proposed balance changes?
But the whole thing was about exactly this. So what do you want?
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On July 20 2014 02:41 LSN wrote:Show nested quote +On July 20 2014 02:39 SC2Toastie wrote:On July 20 2014 02:36 Hider wrote:On July 20 2014 02:33 SC2Toastie wrote:
Shouldn't you guys get back on topic? You're nitpicking and ignoring each other and have had 2 pages of discussion not related to the topic at hand.
What is there to discuss really? I think it's more important to stand up against clear usage of bias/double-standard since that doens't belong in serious discussions. You might discuss, I dont know, the opinions of pro players on the proposed balance changes? But the whole thing was about exactly this. So what do you want? This is exactly what I am asking you not to do. Troll?
Let me try to put it back in place,
Which pro comes across as least biased and would be your pick to give a 5h lecture to the balance team? I'd say Snute wouls be hgood!
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All I can say is "LOL"...
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On July 20 2014 02:39 SC2Toastie wrote:Show nested quote +On July 20 2014 02:36 Hider wrote:On July 20 2014 02:33 SC2Toastie wrote:
Shouldn't you guys get back on topic? You're nitpicking and ignoring each other and have had 2 pages of discussion not related to the topic at hand.
What is there to discuss really? I think it's more important to stand up against clear usage of bias/double-standard since that doens't belong in serious discussions. Report it to the mods, maybe make a comment on it, but dont drag the thread down with you? You might discuss, I dont know, the opinions of pro players on the proposed balance changes?
Don't think double-standards/bias are against the rules.
But regarding the changes, noone really disagrees on very much. Mine-change is only debateable one where people think it only impacts mdgame and that late game is the real problem.
However, I believe that analysis shows a misunderstanding of how TvZ works.
Typically a Zerg gets ahead in midgame as he efficiently can spread creep and take expos quite safely. When a terran player overcommits he can typically overrun him. But he cannot end the game in the midgame due to how weak his army is offcreep.
Thus, the game will drag into the lategame with the zerg in an advantage. Then the zerg will get a 200/200 army that costs like 50% more of the terran army and easily a-move to victory in late game. Then Destiny will go on a show arguing that his lategame army is just too good while in that situation ignoring that he got his advantage throughout the midgame.
And ofc, also ignore that Widow Mines do help in the late game as well (same thing with Thor change).
And yes everybody also seems to agree that ther is an issue with TvP late game, though it remains to be seen how the Widow mine will work out (though I doubt it).
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On July 20 2014 02:39 SC2Toastie wrote:Show nested quote +On July 20 2014 02:36 Hider wrote:On July 20 2014 02:33 SC2Toastie wrote:
Shouldn't you guys get back on topic? You're nitpicking and ignoring each other and have had 2 pages of discussion not related to the topic at hand.
What is there to discuss really? I think it's more important to stand up against clear usage of bias/double-standard since that doens't belong in serious discussions. Report it to the mods, maybe make a comment on it, but dont drag the thread down with you? You might discuss, I dont know, the opinions of pro players on the proposed balance changes?
We are discussing Happy's opinion (he is a pro player) on the proposed balance changes. Sorry "mod".
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On July 20 2014 02:46 SC2Toastie wrote:Show nested quote +On July 20 2014 02:41 LSN wrote:On July 20 2014 02:39 SC2Toastie wrote:On July 20 2014 02:36 Hider wrote:On July 20 2014 02:33 SC2Toastie wrote:
Shouldn't you guys get back on topic? You're nitpicking and ignoring each other and have had 2 pages of discussion not related to the topic at hand.
What is there to discuss really? I think it's more important to stand up against clear usage of bias/double-standard since that doens't belong in serious discussions. You might discuss, I dont know, the opinions of pro players on the proposed balance changes? But the whole thing was about exactly this. So what do you want? This is exactly what I am asking you not to do. Troll? Let me try to put it back in place, Which pro comes across as least biased and would be your pick to give a 5h lecture to the balance team? I'd say Snute wouls be hgood!
The funny thing is that you are exactly doing what you blaming me for. You come here, claim we are off-topic while we discuss one of the statements of the proplayers, which is topic of the thread. = troll
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Italy12246 Posts
Can we please stop the pointless arguing?
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EPT
