On July 19 2014 10:38 BaronVonOwn wrote: The duration of a stimpak is 15 seconds. If time warp doesn't last as long as that, what's the point? I thought it was supposed to make it easier for gateway units to fight terran without kiting. I was OK with the nerf to 15 seconds, but 10 seconds seems too short. I am a zerg player.
TW isn't used for that at all lol. You take less than 10s to get out of a TW anyway. Stim has nothing to do with it.
On July 19 2014 09:43 CutTheEnemy wrote: Why not just re-buff the siege tank and make the battlecruiser viable and interesting? It would be nice to have unit composition options and a tier 3 for terrans.
The big picture though... LotV is already under development:
Can we help spread the word and create pressure to get Rob Pardo to replace Browder as head of Sc2? Pardo led the team for broodwar, frozen throne, and wow/BC. We need to make this a thing before LotV development starts. Think about it.
On July 19 2014 09:26 Varroth wrote: Did Happy just say that the very top terran players are better than the very top protoss and zergs?
This view that terrans are better than Zergs/Protoss players is just so disgusting.. that top zerg and protoss players somewhat rely on their race while for terrans its pure damn skill. Despicable.
Honestly, Happy's opinion doesn't surprise me at all. For one, Happy has always shown on ladder (if you've ever played against him) that he doesn't respect most people he is playing against. He doesn't really communicate with anyone. Secondly, this is a shared view for many many terrans. It's not news that many terrans believe they're playing the "skill race", and that zerg and protoss are the so-called "A-move races". It's just so commonly heard within this community.
In any case, I'm just gonna repeat what many players said. I think Blizzard is looking at the wrong units. Even now widow mines are superior to tanks for their cost + supply vs zerg, and is THE unit that completely stops protosses from doing anything else other than Colossi + stalker compositions. I don't understand why the Widow Mine is the unit their looking at, when there are a few other units we basicly never see in competitive play and are obviously inferior in terran compositions than the standard marines, marauders, medivacs etc etc...
One last thing I'd like to note, is that Blizzard should start considering "taking out" or "giving" units/abilities. A lot of times, changing values here and there (resource cost/energy cost etc.etc...) does very little to help a matchup, and doesn't change the cores issues the game is suffering from.
mYi_StarDust: I'm not sure. I know that Terrans need a buff, but I'm worried that this may make them too strong. I won't know for sure until I play first. What I know for sure is that it will be even more difficult to utilize zealot plays and this will force out even more colossi-related openings. Actually, since the widow mine is useless once the Protoss has secured a certain composition, this will only buff the early and mid game for Terran, and do nothing for late game.
God I hope this doesn't happen. Very few things makes me want to turn away from the stream more than colossus play.
On July 19 2014 08:46 Genome852 wrote: Great that Koreans were included. There are fewer one-line cringe worthy answers this time too. Nice.
Well, this time the changes actually matter to them. Last patch IIRC was just some hasty response to Stephano's SH ZvZs which they really didn't care about.
People should stop saying that protoss are forced to play colossi atm, this is in no way true. It might be with the future patch, but it's currently not the case at all. Protoss are not forced to play colossi. It's just that it's easier and safer, so they use that. But in no way HT opening are not viable.
On July 19 2014 11:23 Faust852 wrote: People should stop saying that protoss are forced to play colossi atm, this is in no way true. It might be with the future patch, but it's currently not the case at all. Protoss are not forced to play colossi. It's just that it's easier and safer, so they use that. But in no way HT opening are not viable.
You should try (At least in Masters league) to get consistant result with templar openings, you would see how inconsistent it vs Robo builds.With a Robo build you can survive a mis-scouted Widow mine drop/play whereas with Templar openings you have no way of defending widow mine harass unless you manage to pick them off before they burrow.
Some say '' Well build a robo anyway even if templar opening '', but it delays Charge/Storm sufficiently that you can barely/can't hold the regular timing pushes Terrans are doing atm
On July 19 2014 11:23 Faust852 wrote: People should stop saying that protoss are forced to play colossi atm, this is in no way true. It might be with the future patch, but it's currently not the case at all. Protoss are not forced to play colossi. It's just that it's easier and safer, so they use that. But in no way HT opening are not viable.
You should try (At least in Masters league) to get consistant result with templar openings, you would see how inconsistent it vs Robo builds.With a Robo build you can survive a mis-scouted Widow mine drop/play whereas with Templar openings you have no way of defending widow mine harass unless you manage to pick them off before they burrow.
Some say '' Well build a robo anyway even if templar opening '', but it delays Charge/Storm sufficiently that you can barely/can't hold the regular timing pushes Terrans are doing atm
So, why was it played before then ? AFAIK, the buff vs shield really affected prrotoss at a later stage of the game, where they already have charge. The drop play before the WM nerf is as effective now.
I personally think that colossus build are just too strong since protoss figured out how to deal with scv pull. And so they do that everytime because it's better. It's like having the choice between a gift of 100$ and a gift of 150$. Both are cool, but it owuld be stupid to take the 100$ gift.
Btw, I am currently playing protoss for learning this race, I am a topM terran and I started at diamond (with freelosing) protoss. I have a really good ratio (30-3) and already play masters players. But I can't really try anything against T since I don't play any ^^
On July 19 2014 11:29 Universum wrote: You should try (At least in Masters league) to get consistant result with templar openings, you would see how inconsistent it vs Robo builds.With a Robo build you can survive a mis-scouted Widow mine drop/play whereas with Templar openings you have no way of defending widow mine harass unless you manage to pick them off before they burrow.
Some say '' Well build a robo anyway even if templar opening '', but it delays Charge/Storm sufficiently that you can barely/can't hold the regular timing pushes Terrans are doing atm
Well that's not true, putting a cannon in your minerals shuts down widow mines a lot harder than an observer does. It's pretty much a given that terran is going to drop at some point, I've always found a few cannons to be worth the investment.
On July 19 2014 11:23 Faust852 wrote: People should stop saying that protoss are forced to play colossi atm, this is in no way true. It might be with the future patch, but it's currently not the case at all. Protoss are not forced to play colossi. It's just that it's easier and safer, so they use that. But in no way HT opening are not viable.
You should try (At least in Masters league) to get consistant result with templar openings, you would see how inconsistent it vs Robo builds.With a Robo build you can survive a mis-scouted Widow mine drop/play whereas with Templar openings you have no way of defending widow mine harass unless you manage to pick them off before they burrow.
Some say '' Well build a robo anyway even if templar opening '', but it delays Charge/Storm sufficiently that you can barely/can't hold the regular timing pushes Terrans are doing atm
So, why was it played before then ? AFAIK, the buff vs shield really affected prrotoss at a later stage of the game, where they already have charge. The drop play before the WM nerf is as effective now.
I personally think that colossus build are just too strong since protoss figured out how to deal with scv pull. And so they do that everytime because it's better. It's like having the choice between a gift of 100$ and a gift of 150$. Both are cool, but it owuld be stupid to take the 100$ gift.
Btw, I am currently playing protoss for learning this race, I am a topM terran and I started at diamond (with freelosing) protoss. I have a really good ratio (30-3) and already play masters players. But I can't really try anything against T since I don't play any ^^
It's pretty impossible to play templar vs. bio/mine, regardless of how well you split and control. The terran just kites forever and you bleed units non-stop. He doesn't even pull scvs, just dodges storms and watches zealots die constantly. Even if you split perfectly and only lose one zealot per mine and never suffer splash, it's still cost-effective for terran. Rain whined about it (it was whining, no doubt) because his style became literally impossible. I mean, yeah, he could just do what everyone else does and go colossus, but he wasn't wrong that templar openings are basically null and void. And that was before this new widow mine buff.
Before the buffs, mines didn't one shot every toss gateway unit and do a ton of splash damage to toss units, which is why it was used.
Gonna say I agree these patches are mostly stupid. I think nurfing time warp in this way is dumb. All it does is slow down the advantage after its been cast. They should leave it's time alone, make it slow by 30 percent instead of 50,and make it affect the casters units. This way it still has a defensive and offensive use but it's more forgiving and makes protoss have to think before using it.
Widow mine is just going to devour Terran units even more now. It really sucks that the only worthwhile splash Terran has is so random and unpredictable. I absolutely agree that it is going to make damaging probes way to easy. They kept talking about making the game more forgiving but having a unit that can decimate worker lines if you just blink is way too unforgiving.
I actually wouldn't have minded a medivac afterburner duration buff. When mutas are out Terran basically is throwing away units during drops that do no damage. At the end of the day it seem blizzard just wants the game to look exciting rather than actually play well. I don't think we will see a lot of major changes until lotv, which at this point is fine. I just hope they pay attention to what everyone is saying here. When all 3 races agree it's the late game that sucks for one race, and they should probably take a look at mech they really should look into that.
On July 19 2014 11:23 Faust852 wrote: People should stop saying that protoss are forced to play colossi atm, this is in no way true. It might be with the future patch, but it's currently not the case at all. Protoss are not forced to play colossi. It's just that it's easier and safer, so they use that. But in no way HT opening are not viable.
You should try (At least in Masters league) to get consistant result with templar openings, you would see how inconsistent it vs Robo builds.With a Robo build you can survive a mis-scouted Widow mine drop/play whereas with Templar openings you have no way of defending widow mine harass unless you manage to pick them off before they burrow.
Some say '' Well build a robo anyway even if templar opening '', but it delays Charge/Storm sufficiently that you can barely/can't hold the regular timing pushes Terrans are doing atm
While there might an argument on widow mines shutting down templar openings but have you looked at TvP point of view? Protoss as a race shutsdown Mech, Immortals shuts down mech so maybe they should nerf immortals then? I never liked widows mines but everyone saying how this one buff shuts down templar openings should see the T's point of view when it comes to P units hard countering T's units/composition specifically mech.
If the widow mines doesn't get reverted to its original stats Terran will continue to struggle in TvZ, period. Mutas are too good now, and combined with sh they make mech very hard to play as a viable everygame style. Plus sh games are often boring as hell.
On July 19 2014 11:23 Faust852 wrote: People should stop saying that protoss are forced to play colossi atm, this is in no way true. It might be with the future patch, but it's currently not the case at all. Protoss are not forced to play colossi. It's just that it's easier and safer, so they use that. But in no way HT opening are not viable.
You should try (At least in Masters league) to get consistant result with templar openings, you would see how inconsistent it vs Robo builds.With a Robo build you can survive a mis-scouted Widow mine drop/play whereas with Templar openings you have no way of defending widow mine harass unless you manage to pick them off before they burrow.
Some say '' Well build a robo anyway even if templar opening '', but it delays Charge/Storm sufficiently that you can barely/can't hold the regular timing pushes Terrans are doing atm
While there might an argument on widow mines shutting down templar openings but have you looked at TvP point of view? Protoss as a race shutsdown Mech, Immortals shuts down mech so maybe they should nerf immortals then? I never liked widows mines but everyone saying how this one buff shuts down templar openings should see the T's point of view when it comes to P units hard countering T's units/composition specifically mech.
Exactly, Protoss has no room to complain about an opening of theirs getting shut down when Terran is pigeonholed into the same openings and style every single game.
i just want to mention, if the time warp is drastically nerfed, i would think the energy requirement should be adjusted. 50 energy takes 90 seconds to gain. not saying it should be 50 energy, but 100 takes 3 minutes...
On July 19 2014 13:26 fenix404 wrote: i just want to mention, if the time warp is drastically nerfed, i would think the energy requirement should be adjusted. 50 energy takes 90 seconds to gain. not saying it should be 50 energy, but 100 takes 3 minutes...
Reducing the energy totally makes the nerf pointless. In fact, it would actually be better because engagements are usually decided before 10 seconds, especially when the tw is used during an all-in vs Terran. It would be far better for Toss if they could continue to cast new tw's as soon as the Terran stepped out of the last one.
On July 19 2014 13:26 fenix404 wrote: i just want to mention, if the time warp is drastically nerfed, i would think the energy requirement should be adjusted. 50 energy takes 90 seconds to gain. not saying it should be 50 energy, but 100 takes 3 minutes...
Reducing the energy totally makes the nerf pointless. In fact, it would actually be better because engagements are usually decided before 10 seconds, especially when the tw is used during an all-in vs Terran. It would be far better for Toss if they could continue to cast new tw's as soon as the Terran stepped out of the last one.
Or better yet, just remove timewarp from the mothership core
On July 19 2014 11:23 Faust852 wrote: People should stop saying that protoss are forced to play colossi atm, this is in no way true. It might be with the future patch, but it's currently not the case at all. Protoss are not forced to play colossi. It's just that it's easier and safer, so they use that. But in no way HT opening are not viable.
You should try (At least in Masters league) to get consistant result with templar openings, you would see how inconsistent it vs Robo builds.With a Robo build you can survive a mis-scouted Widow mine drop/play whereas with Templar openings you have no way of defending widow mine harass unless you manage to pick them off before they burrow.
Some say '' Well build a robo anyway even if templar opening '', but it delays Charge/Storm sufficiently that you can barely/can't hold the regular timing pushes Terrans are doing atm
What? How can that be true? Widow mines dont move when they are burrowed. Storm the area or run drones and build a single cannon. You have a forge for upgrades, right? In the event you need a meatshield to soak up a shot of WM, make an archon. Shields regenerate.
On July 19 2014 13:20 Loccstana wrote: Widow mines still dont do enough damage. They need to make it do 125 splash in the entire radius. I want to see games like this:
A few problems. First, the auto-ball feature of SC2 makes it more deadly. I don't recall whether in SC:BW if you separated a few units and then clicked to move to an area, they stayed in formation or not. It can be done to some degree in SC2, but its costly APM that can go into macro or kiting.
The WM is still easily visible in the ground without need for an observer. SM's aren't. SM's can detect and kill cloaked units. WM's can't.
One of my peeves about the WM is it's lack of micro in a big battle situation. Any interaction with the WM causes the countdown to fire to reset, which essentially makes attempting to use them intelligently useless in most scenarios except mineral line drops or defense against some small time harass.
Has anyone found any "best" formations for bio-mine-tank? I've been working with enemy -> marine||mines||tank setup, it seems okay unless they run past the marines and pull WM shots into your units.
On July 19 2014 11:23 Faust852 wrote: People should stop saying that protoss are forced to play colossi atm, this is in no way true. It might be with the future patch, but it's currently not the case at all. Protoss are not forced to play colossi. It's just that it's easier and safer, so they use that. But in no way HT opening are not viable.
You should try (At least in Masters league) to get consistant result with templar openings, you would see how inconsistent it vs Robo builds.With a Robo build you can survive a mis-scouted Widow mine drop/play whereas with Templar openings you have no way of defending widow mine harass unless you manage to pick them off before they burrow.
Some say '' Well build a robo anyway even if templar opening '', but it delays Charge/Storm sufficiently that you can barely/can't hold the regular timing pushes Terrans are doing atm
While there might an argument on widow mines shutting down templar openings but have you looked at TvP point of view? Protoss as a race shutsdown Mech, Immortals shuts down mech so maybe they should nerf immortals then? I never liked widows mines but everyone saying how this one buff shuts down templar openings should see the T's point of view when it comes to P units hard countering T's units/composition specifically mech.
Exactly, Protoss has no room to complain about an opening of theirs getting shut down when Terran is pigeonholed into the same openings and style every single game.
My feel is that tech/mech is either for counters or attacks of opportunity. Tanks in tank mode do better damage against immortals, as far as I know. They lose much less DPS , and it makes sense in certain stages of a game. Tanks do seem difficult to use vs a protoss army, and bio does seem to be "win". But the paradigm seems to be that you use high tech and high cost mechanical units (bc, thor, tank, viking, etc) as an initial assault force or for some very specific counter work, and then revert back to spamming bio once the biggest threats to bio are dead. Bio beats zealot-stalker, and the occaisional archon or high templar for a protoss on the back foot.
Tanks actually have a relatively short build time, which I found a bit surprising. If you wipe a P's army, you know that zealot-stalker spam is going to be the follow up, and MMM-tank should be the natural move by a T against that.
EPT
