Raven maximum energy from 200 to 100 (starting energy stays at 50/75 respectively) PDD cost from 125 to 100. Seeker Missile cost from 100 to 75. Auto Turret cost to 50 to 25.
1spell and...:S, terran doesnt need an another real caster? there was a lot of suggestions about raven buff/nerf u proposed but i feel like they were too oriented to compensate the current situation. Also i like the idea to keep a some energy so FB can kill caster 75 NRG per spell 150 max NRG no more Corvid Reactor ? if u choose to max raven nrg and to have 2 spell available, u exposed ur caster.
Ravens basically always die to feedbacks
i dont play that much terran mech but can u explain hoow this happen cause mech has a lot of scan to check the way and speed raven > speed HT
On July 06 2014 20:38 playa wrote: Frankly, I'm not sure what buff terran late game means, when they stay on the same units all game long. All I can think of is, you must be telling me you want the addition of +4 weapons and +4 armor for terran, which I wouldn't mind seeing.
I don't get why people don't use mech more, either. I'd much rather face bio, since they combined upgrades for mech air and ground (which I don't agree with). It's harder to face... I don't play zerg, but I always hear about how hard ravens/mech is to play against, yet hardly anyone uses mech... what gives? No one would rather play against mech, yet everyone uses bio and then complains about how hard it is.....
It's fucking boring to play mech.
I think getting to 3/3 faster than Z every time is good enough and Zerg never wins engages outside creep in late game either.
It, does however create an important defenders advatnage where the game is more back-and-fourth rather than one engagement and GG. Creep spreading gives the terran an incentive to go out on the map in the midgame rather than sit in his base, which opens up for small scaled battles. Creep spread is IMO an extremely vital part of the matchup-dynamic, and helps to explain why it is such a mechanically demanding matchup, though one always can discuss the exact numbers.
I don't think sc2 mech will be fun to play, unless vultures and spidermines are added into the game.
Well you just need to be able to play aggressively with mech. Copying the exact BW units aren't necceasary to do that.
What instead could be done is to reduce transformation time of Vikings/hellbat-Hellions in order to encourage more aggressive use of them. Right now static defense kills terran harass too effectively, but if;
A) Hellion to hellbat transformation was a lot faster, and B) Hellbat dealt more damage to armored than vs light, then you use Hellions to get into range of the armored unts/static defense and then transform which would make terran harassplay a lot stronger.
Further, I happen to believe that Banshee's are too slow in the later game. Both Mutas and Overseers are faster than Banshee's, which kinda makes them useless later game (and that applies to them vs all races). I think there could have been a speed-upgrade for this unit (perhaps the upgrade could increase the speed of Ravens as well).
There are definitely a ton of variables that could be tweaked, and Sc2 actually has a lot of good ideas that were just hopelessly implemented. If Blizzard really spent the time on LOTV to tweak values of all units in order to encourage aggression, maintaining/increasing defenders advantage and improving micro-interactions, mech could be incredible fun I believe. You can even create microinteractons through the Thor transformations against Carrier interceptors (like transformation the thor back and fourth betwen splash mode and AA armored mode).
Actually mech is already really fun to play vs bio in Sc2 for a couple of reasons;
1) Static defense/bunkers doens't hardcounter mech harass. 2) Mech can be aggressive in midgame, unlike in WOL as the Hellbat makes it stronger in lower numers. 3) Mech is more microintensive through Hellbat drops during battles.
100% agree as a mech player. I love playing mech vs bio and even mech vs mech. Also Bio vs mech is really balanced although using different units. But you have to turtle so hard vs Zerg and Protoss because of mech's weaknesses that i despise these matchups.
TvT really doesn't get enough praise for how good of a matchup it actually is atm. It has everything;
1) Early game variations with lots of micro-based builds 2) Different styles with different advantages (bio vs mech) that all leads to fun gameplay 3) Battles are relatively micro-based. 4) Lots of small skirmishes/positional play (not to be misunderstood with turtling) combined w/ a relatively high defenders advantage which makes games more back-and-fourth rather than one battle and GG.
IMO there has never been a better matchup in the history of Starcraft. The issue with all BW matchups was that they had quite little variation. TvZ in BW = Bio opening. TvP = mech. PvZ = Forge opening into Corsair. TvT = mech vs mech.
Sc2 TvT, however, really takes the best of everything.
On July 06 2014 06:48 pure.Wasted wrote: Airtoss still isn't viable 4 years later. This is not OK. It's broken. Fix it. That's what your job is. Just because you didn't get it right when HOTS shipped doesn't mean you get to take a break until LOTV. That's not how screwing up your job works.
Fixed that for you
Since when is Tempest/VR/Phoenix/MSC not a thing in PvZ? I'm pretty sure that not only is it viable, but on some maps it's actually the optimal way to play late game Protoss.
Would that Terrans had your problems, 4/16 (1/4) units not standard in PvT! A travesty! Try 7/13. Yeah, that's over half.
On July 06 2014 06:48 pure.Wasted wrote: Dear Blizzard,
Can you tell that the pros are every bit as god damn fucking tired of band aid solutions as the rest of us?
Please do enough work over the course of an expansion to justify its cost the way you did with WC3.
Mech still isn't viable 4 years later. This is not OK. It's broken. Fix it. That's what your job is. Just because you didn't get it right when HOTS shipped doesn't mean you get to take a break until LOTV. That's not how screwing up your job works.
Buffing Medivac speed is an asshole thing to do because it further cements that Terran can't play a straight up game without doing crazy aggression. How about you make Terran playable without needing all those Medivac drops, buffed or otherwise? How about you make macro mech work in TvZ without Ravens?
Thanks.
Very sincerely, People
Thank you so much.
Also, ignoring the community ideas and coming up with these half ass solutions obvioulsy isn't working out
On July 06 2014 20:38 playa wrote: Frankly, I'm not sure what buff terran late game means, when they stay on the same units all game long. All I can think of is, you must be telling me you want the addition of +4 weapons and +4 armor for terran, which I wouldn't mind seeing.
I don't get why people don't use mech more, either. I'd much rather face bio, since they combined upgrades for mech air and ground (which I don't agree with). It's harder to face... I don't play zerg, but I always hear about how hard ravens/mech is to play against, yet hardly anyone uses mech... what gives? No one would rather play against mech, yet everyone uses bio and then complains about how hard it is.....
It's fucking boring to play mech.
I think getting to 3/3 faster than Z every time is good enough and Zerg never wins engages outside creep in late game either.
It, does however create an important defenders advatnage where the game is more back-and-fourth rather than one engagement and GG. Creep spreading gives the terran an incentive to go out on the map in the midgame rather than sit in his base, which opens up for small scaled battles. Creep spread is IMO an extremely vital part of the matchup-dynamic, and helps to explain why it is such a mechanically demanding matchup, though one always can discuss the exact numbers.
I don't think sc2 mech will be fun to play, unless vultures and spidermines are added into the game.
Well you just need to be able to play aggressively with mech. Copying the exact BW units aren't necceasary to do that.
What instead could be done is to reduce transformation time of Vikings/hellbat-Hellions in order to encourage more aggressive use of them. Right now static defense kills terran harass too effectively, but if;
A) Hellion to hellbat transformation was a lot faster, and B) Hellbat dealt more damage to armored than vs light, then you use Hellions to get into range of the armored unts/static defense and then transform which would make terran harassplay a lot stronger.
Further, I happen to believe that Banshee's are too slow in the later game. Both Mutas and Overseers are faster than Banshee's, which kinda makes them useless later game (and that applies to them vs all races). I think there could have been a speed-upgrade for this unit (perhaps the upgrade could increase the speed of Ravens as well).
There are definitely a ton of variables that could be tweaked, and Sc2 actually has a lot of good ideas that were just hopelessly implemented. If Blizzard really spent the time on LOTV to tweak values of all units in order to encourage aggression, maintaining/increasing defenders advantage and improving micro-interactions, mech could be incredible fun I believe. You can even create microinteractons through the Thor transformations against Carrier interceptors (like transformation the thor back and fourth betwen splash mode and AA armored mode).
Actually mech is already really fun to play vs bio in Sc2 for a couple of reasons;
1) Static defense/bunkers doens't hardcounter mech harass. 2) Mech can be aggressive in midgame, unlike in WOL as the Hellbat makes it stronger in lower numers. 3) Mech is more microintensive through Hellbat drops during battles.
100% agree as a mech player. I love playing mech vs bio and even mech vs mech. Also Bio vs mech is really balanced although using different units. But you have to turtle so hard vs Zerg and Protoss because of mech's weaknesses that i despise these matchups.
TvT really doesn't get enough praise for how good of a matchup it actually is atm. It has everything;
1) Early game variations with lots of micro-based builds 2) Different styles with different advantages (bio vs mech) that all leads to fun gameplay 3) Battles are relatively micro-based. 4) Lots of small skirmishes/positional play (not to be misunderstood with turtling) combined w/ a relatively high defenders advantage which makes games more back-and-fourth rather than one battle and GG.
IMO there has never been a matchup that has been in a better state than what Sc2 is in right now. The issue with all BW matchups was also that they had quite little variation. TvZ in BW = Bio opening. TvP = mech. PvZ = Forge opening into Corsair. TvT = mech vs mech.
Sc2 TvT, however, really takes the best of everything.
Jokling aside I think there is a real problem with how terran can get units out. Zergs and Protoss seems to have a production With warp gate / inject who is really usefull in late game scenarios.
I think terran need an "emergency prodution" like a spell you cast with OC or with baraks, which allow you to drop units kinda like mule. But of course near a terran buildings or somthing like that :p.
For me terran need to have the same advantages than other races on production.
On July 06 2014 07:06 Faust852 wrote: Lol some pro are really fucking biased lol.
Yeah, I agree. Except Nerchio who seems really not biaised, drops are incredibly difficult to deal with for zergs, you know you push one button and mutas can't catch them, that's for sure....................................... God I hate reading biaised opinions like this.
On July 06 2014 06:48 pure.Wasted wrote: Dear Blizzard,
Can you tell that the pros are every bit as god damn fucking tired of band aid solutions as the rest of us?
Please do enough work over the course of an expansion to justify its cost the way you did with WC3.
Mech still isn't viable 4 years later. This is not OK. It's broken. Fix it. That's what your job is. Just because you didn't get it right when HOTS shipped doesn't mean you get to take a break until LOTV. That's not how screwing up your job works.
Buffing Medivac speed is an asshole thing to do because it further cements that Terran can't play a straight up game without doing crazy aggression. How about you make Terran playable without needing all those Medivac drops, buffed or otherwise? How about you make macro mech work in TvZ without Ravens?
Thanks.
Very sincerely, People
I am one of the people and I think mech is fine. Mech is doing well in proleague. It is also boring ass to watch and play if it isn't TvT. You don't speak for the "people".
Very sincerely,
A person. Without delusions of speaking for the people.
On July 06 2014 06:48 pure.Wasted wrote: Dear Blizzard,
Can you tell that the pros are every bit as god damn fucking tired of band aid solutions as the rest of us?
Please do enough work over the course of an expansion to justify its cost the way you did with WC3.
Mech still isn't viable 4 years later. This is not OK. It's broken. Fix it. That's what your job is. Just because you didn't get it right when HOTS shipped doesn't mean you get to take a break until LOTV. That's not how screwing up your job works.
Buffing Medivac speed is an asshole thing to do because it further cements that Terran can't play a straight up game without doing crazy aggression. How about you make Terran playable without needing all those Medivac drops, buffed or otherwise? How about you make macro mech work in TvZ without Ravens?
Thanks.
Very sincerely, People
I am one of the people and I think mech is fine. Mech is doing well in proleague. It is also boring ass to watch and play if it isn't TvT. You don't speak for the "people".
Very sincerely,
A person. Without delusions of speaking for the people.
I didn't say I speak for all people. But surely I speak for more than myself.
If mech is boring then make it not fucking boring. My god, this isn't rocket science. Blizzard made units that suck, and therefore they make these units weak so that no one will use them, because if people used them, then the game would suck to play and watch?????? You know what that sounds like? A game that is horrendously designed. You know what should happen to a game that is horrendously designed? It should be redesigned when people pay for updates, ie. expansions.
(also, we have very different ideas of what "doing well" means. For me, mech isn't doing well until there are standard mech builds that your opponent knows you're going to do and still can't stop them, which don't rely on 1/2 big engagements to decide the game. I want macro, standard mech play. I don't think that's asking too much.)
edit: sorry if I'm coming off as an asshole. I promise it's not directed at you. But the idea that Blizzard's gotten away with being lazy as hell for four years, and they're going to get away with it even more because people make excuses for them, drives me up the walls. If something in the game is bad, that's no one's fault but the designers. Their job is to make things not bad. If things are bad, they're not doing their job. If mech sucks, it needs to not suck. If mech is boring, it needs to not be boring. Not because "mech simply must exist" (although kind of, if Bbyong vs Flash is any indication), but because there are more Terran mech units than non-mech units!!! A lot more!!!
And to add insult to injury, designing a game has never been easier. Blizzard can literally crowdsource game design of SC2 at this point. They can beta test anything for zero cost. Just throw anything into the patch tester and let us have at it for a week or two. Any harebrained idea. Anything at all. It's that easy. Try random things and see if they work, because we're here and we'll test them. And they don't take advantage of it. I do find it insulting, because it tells me they don't care enough to do even that. Back in WC3, Blizzard took a huge risk on fixing the game with the expansion, they added tons of multiplayer content, and they had no way to test any of it until the actual beta of the game. That was dedication. This is just coasting. "It's good enough."
I would focus on the Raven or perhaps the ghost for adjustments. Here are some suggestions that could be tried individually or in some combination.
Raven:
Reduce its cost Remove the need for a tech lab to build one. Would still need one for the upgrades. This may be to drastic, though worth testing/entertaining the possibility.
The main aim is to make ravens easier to get and reduce terrans reliance on scans to clear creep/check for burrowed units. meaning they could use more mules and have more units. pdds can absorb some muta shots and seeker missiles at the very least provide some zoning control and force more micro from the zerg.
Earlier/easier access to the raven also opens up some possibilities for early attacks against protoss as pdd blocks photon overcharge and stalker shots. Also seeker missiles ignore the immortal shield. Of course protoss still have access to feedback/storms/colossus/phoenix, plenty of ways to fight back.
The only really difference in Tvt would be reducing the effectiveness of banshee openings.
Make auto turrets armoured units instead of structures. As a structure they take 2 banelings to destroy(80 damage each), as a unit they would take 8+ (20 damage each). This would allow them to be used as a form of forcefields against banelings, though of course they require more set up time.
Adds potential for some smart positional play. the banelings do not want to blow up the auto turrets as it takes far too many. The terran can place widow mines where the turrets are not blocking, either way it delays the lings/banelings and the marines are then better protected and more of them are left alive to fight the mutas. Also less scans more mules.
They could see some use in blocking zealots in TvP if the raven also costs less although protoss has units with a bonus against armoured that could clear them quickly.
The Ghost: reduce its cost Emps are all ready incredibly strong at stripping shields and preventing storms
Allowing Terrans better access to ravens and ghosts, the abilities are already very strong and the fact that they are not seeing much use suggests they could use a cost reduction.
Final idea, give terrans a form of Irradiate (http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/Irradiate) Either replace snipe with 'Irradiated round' that functions similarly to as described in the link. Alternatively change seeker missile. It now travels almost instantly and attaches itself to a unit, it then 'pulses' with a series of small aoe explosions damaging both the unit that it is attached to and others that are nearby. the faster a player moves the unit out the less aoe damage they take.
Important considerations would be if it can be used against every unit, clumps of mutas/corrupters/swarm hosts/siege tanks etc. Most importantly workers. It should do enough damage over time to threaten a clump of mutas and should also allow enough time for a player to move a worker out of a mineral line to prevent losing more than the worker it is attached to.
Would need to work out the numbers for all of the above, but I think they might prove positive adjustments.
How about leaving widow mines with the same kill radius but adding a 'shock' radius that just disorientates, i.e. slows attacking units, that way mitigating some of the excesses of mass mutas/banelings/charge zealots etc. Short lived mini time warp.
Just a thought.
Have enjoyed the TL threads on balance, but regarded Polt as an example of the trend being bucked. Then Hyun did a job on him in last 8 WCS AM......
On July 06 2014 06:48 pure.Wasted wrote: Airtoss still isn't viable 4 years later. This is not OK. It's broken. Fix it. That's what your job is. Just because you didn't get it right when HOTS shipped doesn't mean you get to take a break until LOTV. That's not how screwing up your job works.
Fixed that for you
Since when is Tempest/VR/Phoenix/MSC not a thing in PvZ? I'm pretty sure that not only is it viable, but on some maps it's actually the optimal way to play late game Protoss.
Would that Terrans had your problems, 4/16 (1/4) units not standard in PvT! A travesty! Try 7/13. Yeah, that's over half.
On July 06 2014 06:48 pure.Wasted wrote: Airtoss still isn't viable 4 years later. This is not OK. It's broken. Fix it. That's what your job is. Just because you didn't get it right when HOTS shipped doesn't mean you get to take a break until LOTV. That's not how screwing up your job works.
Fixed that for you
Since when is Tempest/VR/Phoenix/MSC not a thing in PvZ? I'm pretty sure that not only is it viable, but on some maps it's actually the optimal way to play late game Protoss.
Would that Terrans had your problems, 4/16 (1/4) units not standard in PvT! A travesty! Try 7/13. Yeah, that's over half.
And since when mech is not working in TvZ?
I don't consider all-ins/gimmick builds that are decided with one or two engagements to be "working mech." Mech is working when I can tell you before the game that I'm going mech, approximately what units I'll be using, and we can have a close game that lasts 30 minutes that's full of back and forth engagements. Also positional play. That's what mech working looks like. Soulkey getting caught with his pants down because someone made 10 Hellbats instead of 12, which allowed him to get an extra Thor in with his deathball push? That's not mech working, that's gimmicky deathball bio without bio tag.
So just to sum up, it's the 3rd test map shitted by proplayers (easy to understand why) and prolly changed accordingly soon and the first balance patch driven by a TL thread. Aside from 2\3 "beta fix" patches after the release, the Hots development is clearly in TL hands, nothing related to "hearing feedbacks",the feedbacks about Terran being up are on the internet till eight months at least, just clearly sucking TL's cock to save the face with the users.
On July 06 2014 06:48 pure.Wasted wrote: Airtoss still isn't viable 4 years later. This is not OK. It's broken. Fix it. That's what your job is. Just because you didn't get it right when HOTS shipped doesn't mean you get to take a break until LOTV. That's not how screwing up your job works.
Fixed that for you
Since when is Tempest/VR/Phoenix/MSC not a thing in PvZ? I'm pretty sure that not only is it viable, but on some maps it's actually the optimal way to play late game Protoss.
Would that Terrans had your problems, 4/16 (1/4) units not standard in PvT! A travesty! Try 7/13. Yeah, that's over half.
And since when mech is not working in TvZ?
It hasn't worked well in the Korean pro level for at least 3 months.
On July 06 2014 20:38 playa wrote: Frankly, I'm not sure what buff terran late game means, when they stay on the same units all game long. All I can think of is, you must be telling me you want the addition of +4 weapons and +4 armor for terran, which I wouldn't mind seeing.
I don't get why people don't use mech more, either. I'd much rather face bio, since they combined upgrades for mech air and ground (which I don't agree with). It's harder to face... I don't play zerg, but I always hear about how hard ravens/mech is to play against, yet hardly anyone uses mech... what gives? No one would rather play against mech, yet everyone uses bio and then complains about how hard it is.....
It's fucking boring to play mech.
I think getting to 3/3 faster than Z every time is good enough and Zerg never wins engages outside creep in late game either.
It, does however create an important defenders advatnage where the game is more back-and-fourth rather than one engagement and GG. Creep spreading gives the terran an incentive to go out on the map in the midgame rather than sit in his base, which opens up for small scaled battles. Creep spread is IMO an extremely vital part of the matchup-dynamic, and helps to explain why it is such a mechanically demanding matchup, though one always can discuss the exact numbers.
I don't think sc2 mech will be fun to play, unless vultures and spidermines are added into the game.
Well you just need to be able to play aggressively with mech. Copying the exact BW units aren't necceasary to do that.
What instead could be done is to reduce transformation time of Vikings/hellbat-Hellions in order to encourage more aggressive use of them. Right now static defense kills terran harass too effectively, but if;
A) Hellion to hellbat transformation was a lot faster, and B) Hellbat dealt more damage to armored than vs light, then you use Hellions to get into range of the armored unts/static defense and then transform which would make terran harassplay a lot stronger.
Further, I happen to believe that Banshee's are too slow in the later game. Both Mutas and Overseers are faster than Banshee's, which kinda makes them useless later game (and that applies to them vs all races). I think there could have been a speed-upgrade for this unit (perhaps the upgrade could increase the speed of Ravens as well).
There are definitely a ton of variables that could be tweaked, and Sc2 actually has a lot of good ideas that were just hopelessly implemented. If Blizzard really spent the time on LOTV to tweak values of all units in order to encourage aggression, maintaining/increasing defenders advantage and improving micro-interactions, mech could be incredible fun I believe. You can even create microinteractons through the Thor transformations against Carrier interceptors (like transformation the thor back and fourth betwen splash mode and AA armored mode).
Actually mech is already really fun to play vs bio in Sc2 for a couple of reasons;
1) Static defense/bunkers doens't hardcounter mech harass. 2) Mech can be aggressive in midgame, unlike in WOL as the Hellbat makes it stronger in lower numers. 3) Mech is more microintensive through Hellbat drops during battles.
100% agree as a mech player. I love playing mech vs bio and even mech vs mech. Also Bio vs mech is really balanced although using different units. But you have to turtle so hard vs Zerg and Protoss because of mech's weaknesses that i despise these matchups.
TvT really doesn't get enough praise for how good of a matchup it actually is atm. It has everything;
1) Early game variations with lots of micro-based builds 2) Different styles with different advantages (bio vs mech) that all leads to fun gameplay 3) Battles are relatively micro-based. 4) Lots of small skirmishes/positional play (not to be misunderstood with turtling) combined w/ a relatively high defenders advantage which makes games more back-and-fourth rather than one battle and GG.
IMO there has never been a better matchup in the history of Starcraft. The issue with all BW matchups was that they had quite little variation. TvZ in BW = Bio opening. TvP = mech. PvZ = Forge opening into Corsair. TvT = mech vs mech.
Sc2 TvT, however, really takes the best of everything.
Not that I'm disagreeing with your main point, but TvT gets an annoyingly huge amount of praise to the point that I occasionally want to vomit blood.
On July 06 2014 20:36 Decendos wrote: Acer.Nerchio: Yes, i think drops are too powerful and zerg is too weak outside of creep while being too strong on creep.
thats spot on: too strong drops mean everything but mutas force Z in a very bad and purely defensive position. (apart from hydras being too weak). also especially mass banes on creep are way too strong while they are way too weak offcreep.
what nerchio forgot to mention is that T needs a way to transition into a stronger lategame after going bio.
I think getting to 3/3 faster than Z every time is good enough and Zerg never wins engages outside creep in late game either.
well yes but after Z gets to 3/3 with upgraded mutas and lots of lategame creepspread it gets hard for T, especially with some ultras involved. maybe T should transition earlier while 3/3 vs 2/2 but into what? starting to get 1 extra starport and adding ravens + 1/0 or 2/0 thors? what i would like to see is T getting two armories in the late midgame once they start banking gas anyway so adding mech units would be a lot stronger of a transition than the way they do it now.
On July 06 2014 20:36 Decendos wrote: Acer.Nerchio: Yes, i think drops are too powerful and zerg is too weak outside of creep while being too strong on creep.
thats spot on: too strong drops mean everything but mutas force Z in a very bad and purely defensive position. (apart from hydras being too weak). also especially mass banes on creep are way too strong while they are way too weak offcreep.
what nerchio forgot to mention is that T needs a way to transition into a stronger lategame after going bio.
I think getting to 3/3 faster than Z every time is good enough and Zerg never wins engages outside creep in late game either.
well yes but after Z gets to 3/3 with upgraded mutas and lots of lategame creepspread it gets hard for T, especially with some ultras involved. maybe T should transition earlier while 3/3 vs 2/2 but into what? starting to get 1 extra starport and adding ravens + 1/0 or 2/0 thors? what i would like to see is T getting two armories in the late midgame once they start banking gas anyway so adding mech units would be a lot stronger of a transition than the way they do it now.
EPT
