EPTOnce you think of it that way 1.6 million is normal.
NASL were over $1.6 million in debt - Page 5
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marigoldran
219 Posts
Once you think of it that way 1.6 million is normal. | ||
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JustPassingBy
10776 Posts
On May 23 2014 22:21 RHoudini wrote: You're very harsh - the difference between success and failure often boils down to luck. NASL should be applauded for trying to achieve something. They failed, but that's part of life. I don't know... while I certainly don't think as bad of them as some of the people in this thread, "applaud" is a really strong word to use in this context... | ||
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canikizu
4860 Posts
On May 23 2014 14:03 Rho_ wrote: You are full of it. There was no grassroots anything with LoL tourneys. There were basically no tournaments for a long time, and what was there was really, really poorly run. Then Riot got bought out for like $500 mil and threw money at the problem till it was fixed. What they did correctly was market the shit out of LCS in game, which blizz didn't do for SC2 for a long, long time. - LoL was released in Oct 2009, and Tencent bought stakes of Riot in Feb 2011. I'm pretty sure it's normal for an unknown game company to not have their game instantly become the next best thing in one year. - Riot only started LCS in Feb 2013, which, believe it or not, was actually after Blizzard making WCS in 2012. | ||
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Shikyo
Finland33997 Posts
On May 24 2014 01:15 marigoldran wrote: NASL never had the revenue stream it needed. It was using money, but it wasn't making it. Once you think of it that way 1.6 million is normal. Normal and normal. I think it's irresponsible. 5000 dollar prize pool, 100000 dollar prize pool. Is there a huge difference in the amount of viewers you get? Perhaps, but with good commentary and such it still would attract plenty. You also don't need super production and all sorts of fancy stuffs, it just needs to be watchable. HSC is a good example, I would say. Personally I also am a fan of tournaments with entry fees but I guess that would hurt the participant count quite a bit because it's not common practice. | ||
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KelianQatar
303 Posts
RAYNOR IS RIGHT AGAIN! never mind Alex Anthopolous, Reimer Concussions, Women's Olympic Hockey, or GMs getting fired.. when it comes to eSports... this guy gets it! | ||
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BronzeKnee
United States5217 Posts
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Deleted User 183001
2939 Posts
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marigoldran
219 Posts
On May 24 2014 01:59 Shikyo wrote: Normal and normal. I think it's irresponsible. 5000 dollar prize pool, 100000 dollar prize pool. Is there a huge difference in the amount of viewers you get? Perhaps, but with good commentary and such it still would attract plenty. You also don't need super production and all sorts of fancy stuffs, it just needs to be watchable. HSC is a good example, I would say. Personally I also am a fan of tournaments with entry fees but I guess that would hurt the participant count quite a bit because it's not common practice. They overestimated the amount of viewers that would tune in. Starcraft 2 viewership numbers in the thousands. They were hoping for in the millions. Sad, but you could see the casters were under pressure to bring results. They did a good job, and it was very professional, but for some reason it never caught on. | ||
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blade55555
United States17423 Posts
On May 24 2014 08:55 marigoldran wrote: They overestimated the amount of viewers that would tune in. Starcraft 2 viewership numbers in the thousands. They were hoping for in the millions. Sad, but you could see the casters were under pressure to bring results. They did a good job, and it was very professional, but for some reason it never caught on. Haha I highly doubt they were hoping for in the millions. Not even the all mighty LoL gets close to that. | ||
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Wuster
1974 Posts
On May 24 2014 08:47 JudicatorHammurabi wrote: The debt is one thing. The bigger issue is if someone among the investors decides to go after NASL and press criminal charges for this debt that isn't repaid. NASL obviously doesn't exist anymore, but the people still do, and they can be hunted down in terms of legal engagements. :X Why would there be criminal liability with a bankruptcy? For starters the liability is held by the company, not the operators or founders, that's the point of incorporation*. Second, it's not a crime to be bad at business. If there's a criminal complaint it would have to be something like NASL cooked the books to get people to invest, or that they were embezzling money, which doesn't seem likely considering they were still paying prize money to the end. * There's still a link of course, otherwise the NASL folks could just walk away and not bother with the bankruptcy proceedings, which they're going to do. But there's very little you can do about the actual people behind the company. | ||
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Dangermousecatdog
United Kingdom7084 Posts
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Shikyo
Finland33997 Posts
On May 24 2014 08:47 JudicatorHammurabi wrote: The debt is one thing. The bigger issue is if someone among the investors decides to go after NASL and press criminal charges for this debt that isn't repaid. NASL obviously doesn't exist anymore, but the people still do, and they can be hunted down in terms of legal engagements. :X That's how it works in USA? Over here the people and the company are completely seperate. If the company goes bankrupt it goes bankrupt but the people only lose what they initially invested in the company. However, I have no idea how it's even possible to loan 1.6 million just like that... You'd need to like, pledge your house or something I'd imagine. | ||
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SuperFanBoy
New Zealand1068 Posts
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Deleted User 183001
2939 Posts
On May 24 2014 09:03 Wuster wrote: Why would there be criminal liability with a bankruptcy? For starters the liability is held by the company, not the operators or founders, that's the point of incorporation*. Second, it's not a crime to be bad at business. If there's a criminal complaint it would have to be something like NASL cooked the books to get people to invest, or that they were embezzling money, which doesn't seem likely considering they were still paying prize money to the end. * There's still a link of course, otherwise the NASL folks could just walk away and not bother with the bankruptcy proceedings, which they're going to do. But there's very little you can do about the actual people behind the company. Okay. I was under the impression that NASL wasn't an incorporated organization, which makes things an entirely different matter. Thanks for clarifying. On May 24 2014 09:38 Shikyo wrote: That's how it works in USA? Over here the people and the company are completely seperate. If the company goes bankrupt it goes bankrupt but the people only lose what they initially invested in the company. However, I have no idea how it's even possible to loan 1.6 million just like that... You'd need to like, pledge your house or something I'd imagine. It doesn't work that way in the US if it's an incorporated/limited liability organization/scheme. See Wuster's post. Apparently, NASL was an incorporated business, so it doesn't apply. For some reason, I've been under the impression since 2011 that some guys started the star league without going through incorporation, liability protection, etc. Since the latter is apparently what happened, investors just have to suck up their losses in this situation, which pretty much sucks for them. "However, I have no idea how it's even possible to loan 1.6 million just like that..." Yeah, but there's some pretty stupid investors/loaners out there. I remember back when NASL was started I was wondering how in the heck anyone was giving them money for this or how NASL was making money. Obviously, my suspicions turned out to be more true than not, as this huge debt shows. | ||
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BronzeKnee
United States5217 Posts
On May 24 2014 10:13 JudicatorHammurabi wrote: Okay. I was under the impression that NASL wasn't an incorporated organization, which makes things an entirely different matter. Thanks for clarifying. It doesn't work that way in the US if it's an incorporated/limited liability organization/scheme. See Wuster's post. Apparently, NASL was an incorporated business, so it doesn't apply. For some reason, I've been under the impression since 2011 that some guys started the star league without going through incorporation, liability protection, etc. Since the latter is apparently what happened, investors just have to suck up their losses in this situation, which pretty much sucks for them. "However, I have no idea how it's even possible to loan 1.6 million just like that..." Yeah, but there's some pretty stupid investors/loaners out there. I remember back when NASL was started I was wondering how in the heck anyone was giving them money for this or how NASL was making money. Obviously, my suspicions turned out to be more true than not, as this huge debt shows. He is right. Corporations are people in the United States. Until they go bankrupt, then they magically disappear and there is no one to sue... And they don't get thrown into jail either, for any reason. Thus, is no one to go after for money as long as NASL was set up correctly. | ||
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Slydie
1927 Posts
In hinsight, it was pretty obvious this had to go horribly wrong. But, there is no reason to panic! The korean scene seems to have stabilized, Dreamhack, ESL and takes tournaments are still popular, plenty of foreigner can beat tier 2 Koreans, WCS has good viewer numbers, there is still usually less than 1 min que to get a ladder game. Chill all! | ||
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bypLy
757 Posts
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On May 24 2014 09:38 Shikyo wrote: That's how it works in USA? Over here the people and the company are completely seperate. If the company goes bankrupt it goes bankrupt but the people only lose what they initially invested in the company. However, I have no idea how it's even possible to loan 1.6 million just like that... You'd need to like, pledge your house or something I'd imagine. That is how it works in the US. We don't have debtor's prison, this isn't the 1800s or a Dickens novel. No one is going to get charged with criminal charges. People invested venture capital and lost money, end of story. NASL filed BK, the assets were liquidated and everyone moves on with their lives. End of story. | ||
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Wuster
1974 Posts
For fun I looked it up and you *can* be thrown in jail in some parts of the US for debt... But only debt of court mandated fines, like if you got fined for breaking the law and didn't / couldn't pay. I don't think it's very common though, just a lever for getting people to pay their fines, but that's just my hunch. | ||
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FabledIntegral
United States9232 Posts
On May 24 2014 10:13 JudicatorHammurabi wrote: Okay. I was under the impression that NASL wasn't an incorporated organization, which makes things an entirely different matter. Thanks for clarifying. It doesn't work that way in the US if it's an incorporated/limited liability organization/scheme. See Wuster's post. Apparently, NASL was an incorporated business, so it doesn't apply. For some reason, I've been under the impression since 2011 that some guys started the star league without going through incorporation, liability protection, etc. Since the latter is apparently what happened, investors just have to suck up their losses in this situation, which pretty much sucks for them. "However, I have no idea how it's even possible to loan 1.6 million just like that..." Yeah, but there's some pretty stupid investors/loaners out there. I remember back when NASL was started I was wondering how in the heck anyone was giving them money for this or how NASL was making money. Obviously, my suspicions turned out to be more true than not, as this huge debt shows. Even if they didn't incorporate, they wouldn't be faced with criminal charges...? | ||
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