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I don't think there's any way to make a decision everybody is happy with here - that is why there are rules and admins to enforce them. On one hand the whole tournament is delayed past a reasonable length, on the other it is a non-ideal situation to decide a match with. What can you do
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Canada16217 Posts
On April 19 2014 23:56 VTJRaen wrote:
Full disclosure: I am the Mutliplay eSports Co-Ordinator and the person who agreed with and enforced this specific rule.
Just to note, Swarmhosts were not banned, and are not banned at iSeries.
An administrative decision was made after a re-game due to a natural stalemate, that in the second game Miniraser was in a position where he was playing for another re-game and, given the stated rules regarding such actions (especially with specific time restraints) that the map win would be awarded to his opponent.
Miniraser was understandably frustrated, and took those frustrations first to the admins and then to Twitter.
This should probably be in the OP infact this thread should be closed based on the fact that they were not actually banned.
much better thread title, thanks.
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Garbage tournament,admins, rulings, disappointed to see ESL even remotely involved
play the game as it is or don't run it
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On April 20 2014 00:13 SatedSC2 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 20 2014 00:03 nkr wrote:On April 20 2014 00:02 Wardi wrote:Players can either
A) Blinding cloud + baneling bomb vs the 1base spore swarmhost save, or if leading player cant afford this go for:
B) Agree to a re-game as soon as possible, you know even better than admins when stuff are gonna get bonkers so dont make it more difficult than it has to be
On blizzard's end it would probably make sense to implement:
- Brood Lords immune to abducts (ultralisk was already hotfixed, muta was "kind of hotfixed", so why not.
- Spores nerfed vs non-light Zerg units. change spore bonus from +30 dmg vs biological into +30 dmg vs biological light. Corruptors, overlords and brood lords take too much damage as it is now.
- A more extreme change: Allow for abduction(incl. uproot) of spore and spine crawlers by vipers?
As stupid as it may sound the current ZvZ endgame would benefit from returning to the WoL situation. It had way more depth than the current SH/spore/viper.
The player who was ahead in this situation had no gas remaining. They did re-game and in the re-game Miniraser did the same, made Swarm Hosts and pulled into his main to force another stalemate. Don't know what you do then. I fail to see how it's different from what terrans do in TvP. If your opponent has no resources to kill your floating buildings, will he be awarded a win at i51 regardless? When Terrans lift their buildings, it's usually because they're trying to win a base-race and that's their only option to prolong it. The only way a base-race can occur is if both players attack each other's bases at the same time. Therefore, if the game is in a situation where a base-race is happening, then it's clear that both players were playing to win since they must've been attacking each other in order to get into that situation. This means that this situation would fall into the category of "natural stalemate", which the rules mention results in a re-game. I didn't see Ourk's game so I shouldn't really comment on it, but it does sound like Miniraser has put himself in a situation where he has absolutely no intention of trying to win the game twice in a row. That isn't a "natural stalemate".
I don't know, I feel like a lot of the time terrans do go for a draw when they have no chance of winning. It then falls on the admins to try and decipher the player's intent, and that's a slippery slope if I've ever seen one.
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On April 20 2014 00:13 NovemberstOrm wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2014 23:56 VTJRaen wrote:
Full disclosure: I am the Mutliplay eSports Co-Ordinator and the person who agreed with and enforced this specific rule.
Just to note, Swarmhosts were not banned, and are not banned at iSeries.
An administrative decision was made after a re-game due to a natural stalemate, that in the second game Miniraser was in a position where he was playing for another re-game and, given the stated rules regarding such actions (especially with specific time restraints) that the map win would be awarded to his opponent.
Miniraser was understandably frustrated, and took those frustrations first to the admins and then to Twitter. This should probably be in the OP infact this thread should be closed based on the fact that they were not actually banned.
admins renamed the thread so I think it's fine ;p
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Making up rules on the spot is never a good idea.
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Lol imagine Swarm host & Broodlord vs Swarm host & Broodlord 10 hours stalemate lol. Time to rework on them please Blizzard.
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On April 19 2014 23:34 Squat wrote:
That is one dumbest things I've heard so far this year. Seriously, that is completely fucking retarded. This takes any credibility of the tournament and craps all over it.
What's next? People don't like all ins and FF, ban sentries! Mech turtle is stupid, ban raven! You can't run a tournament like that.
might as well ban korean players on foreign tourna for tooooooooooooooooooo being imba... LOL
i can understand the sentiments but personally they shouldn't have
this should be a wake up call again to bliz
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On April 20 2014 00:17 ACrow wrote:
Making up rules on the spot is never a good idea.
They didnt though.
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So basically Miniraser had no chance of winning the game, so then decided to just go for a draw by making his base impregnable, using swarm hosts and spore crawlers to defend... and this happened twice. Sounds like a legit decision from the admins to be honest. Players should play to win, not to enforce a draw.
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That's just stupid. Every move within the game that doesn't break the game itself (aka cheating) should be allowed. Whether this being defensive play (= here), cheese, etc...
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I love the 2 hour + swarm host games. I don't see very many of them. I think it only happens when both players play very passively. So is their a problem? Not really. Not until more than 1/10 games is taking that long.
Admins made the right call. No need for #drama.
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On April 20 2014 00:18 SatedSC2 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 20 2014 00:15 nkr wrote:On April 20 2014 00:13 SatedSC2 wrote:On April 20 2014 00:03 nkr wrote:On April 20 2014 00:02 Wardi wrote:Players can either
A) Blinding cloud + baneling bomb vs the 1base spore swarmhost save, or if leading player cant afford this go for:
B) Agree to a re-game as soon as possible, you know even better than admins when stuff are gonna get bonkers so dont make it more difficult than it has to be
On blizzard's end it would probably make sense to implement:
- Brood Lords immune to abducts (ultralisk was already hotfixed, muta was "kind of hotfixed", so why not.
- Spores nerfed vs non-light Zerg units. change spore bonus from +30 dmg vs biological into +30 dmg vs biological light. Corruptors, overlords and brood lords take too much damage as it is now.
- A more extreme change: Allow for abduction(incl. uproot) of spore and spine crawlers by vipers?
As stupid as it may sound the current ZvZ endgame would benefit from returning to the WoL situation. It had way more depth than the current SH/spore/viper.
The player who was ahead in this situation had no gas remaining. They did re-game and in the re-game Miniraser did the same, made Swarm Hosts and pulled into his main to force another stalemate. Don't know what you do then. I fail to see how it's different from what terrans do in TvP. If your opponent has no resources to kill your floating buildings, will he be awarded a win at i51 regardless? When Terrans lift their buildings, it's usually because they're trying to win a base-race and that's their only option to prolong it. The only way a base-race can occur is if both players attack each other's bases at the same time. Therefore, if the game is in a situation where a base-race is happening, then it's clear that both players were playing to win since they must've been attacking each other in order to get into that situation. This means that this situation would fall into the category of "natural stalemate", which the rules mention results in a re-game. I didn't see Ourk's game so I shouldn't really comment on it, but it does sound like Miniraser has put himself in a situation where he has absolutely no intention of trying to win the game twice in a row. That isn't a "natural stalemate". I don't know, I feel like a lot of the time terrans do go for a draw when they have no chance of winning. It then falls on the admins to try and decipher the player's intent, and that's a slippery slope if I've ever seen one. How often do we see draws in SC2? I feel like if a draw happens twice in a row as a result of the same player doing nothing at all to attempt a win, it becomes very clear that someone is playing to draw rather than playing to win.
Fair point, but I feel like with how swarmhost plays, we're going to see this a lot more often if swarmhost vs swarmhost becomes common. If a tournament has a rule like this, you basicly have to arbitrarily decide the player's intent in not attacking or tech switching in games.
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Miniraiser isn't that skilled, sad to see he has to do things like this
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On April 20 2014 00:18 SatedSC2 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 20 2014 00:15 nkr wrote:On April 20 2014 00:13 SatedSC2 wrote:On April 20 2014 00:03 nkr wrote:On April 20 2014 00:02 Wardi wrote:Players can either
A) Blinding cloud + baneling bomb vs the 1base spore swarmhost save, or if leading player cant afford this go for:
B) Agree to a re-game as soon as possible, you know even better than admins when stuff are gonna get bonkers so dont make it more difficult than it has to be
On blizzard's end it would probably make sense to implement:
- Brood Lords immune to abducts (ultralisk was already hotfixed, muta was "kind of hotfixed", so why not.
- Spores nerfed vs non-light Zerg units. change spore bonus from +30 dmg vs biological into +30 dmg vs biological light. Corruptors, overlords and brood lords take too much damage as it is now.
- A more extreme change: Allow for abduction(incl. uproot) of spore and spine crawlers by vipers?
As stupid as it may sound the current ZvZ endgame would benefit from returning to the WoL situation. It had way more depth than the current SH/spore/viper.
The player who was ahead in this situation had no gas remaining. They did re-game and in the re-game Miniraser did the same, made Swarm Hosts and pulled into his main to force another stalemate. Don't know what you do then. I fail to see how it's different from what terrans do in TvP. If your opponent has no resources to kill your floating buildings, will he be awarded a win at i51 regardless? When Terrans lift their buildings, it's usually because they're trying to win a base-race and that's their only option to prolong it. The only way a base-race can occur is if both players attack each other's bases at the same time. Therefore, if the game is in a situation where a base-race is happening, then it's clear that both players were playing to win since they must've been attacking each other in order to get into that situation. This means that this situation would fall into the category of "natural stalemate", which the rules mention results in a re-game. I didn't see Ourk's game so I shouldn't really comment on it, but it does sound like Miniraser has put himself in a situation where he has absolutely no intention of trying to win the game twice in a row. That isn't a "natural stalemate". I don't know, I feel like a lot of the time terrans do go for a draw when they have no chance of winning. It then falls on the admins to try and decipher the player's intent, and that's a slippery slope if I've ever seen one. How often do we see draws in SC2? I feel like if a draw happens twice in a row as a result of the same player doing nothing at all to attempt a win, it becomes very clear that someone is playing to draw rather than playing to win.
Lol TvZ mech? Reality vs whoever went to a draw once and almost went to a draw again. Thank god those games weren't played at i51 UK masters because they prolly would have cut off that game like an hour into it, claiming Reality's opponent was "playing for a draw" because he was just swarmhost turtling. I mean he might have killed one tank per 5 game time minutes but eventually that whittled it into a draw.
I'm upset at the admins but what can they do? I'm assuming they have a venue rented out for a certain amount of hours. I mean slightly amatuer hour but this isn't the biggest tournament in the world so what do you really expect? Mainly it's Blizzards fault for making the game the way it is lol.
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Disappointing to see Miniraser intentionally trying to force a draw. What did he think he was going to accomplish?
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EPT
