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On April 19 2014 23:52 Squat wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2014 23:48 Pangpootata wrote:On April 19 2014 23:46 VegaMatt wrote:On April 19 2014 23:44 ZodaSoda wrote:
This is more of the case of players not switching to counters and just making swarmhosts than swarmhosts causing stalemates... there is no counter in zvz to swarmhost How about transitioning into air? Or abusing the lack of mobility of SH by running zerglings into his base? There's a reason why we don't see SH vs SH in high level games (Proleague); because SH is not really a good unit in ZvZ. Very map dependent. On certain maps, what you describe is absolutely doable. On others, there really is no way to break entrenched SH turtles. Zerg air just gets murdered by spores and vipers. The reason you don't see SH in ZvZ at that level is because of a different meta compared to EU, and also because if you scout your opponent rushing to SH you can often just go and kill him. Once it's established, it's virtually unbreakable.
It's nothing to do with a different meta. In early and mid game ZvZ, it is extremely important that your zergling/roach count does not fall too far behind your opponent, or it will create a timing where you die outright. Going into swarmhosts is just gifting your opponent a free victory, unless it's a low level game.
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On April 19 2014 23:56 Ourk wrote:
ok im sorry but this is so wrong, they didnt ban the Swamhosts it was the fact both games mini and i went SH both games i was out playing him and he was forced to uproot into his base, on the i51 webstie you can look at the rules and it says
4.11. Draws & Stalemates
If a player deliberately plays for a stalemate, administrators hold the right to decide the outcome of the game.
If there is a natural stalemate the game will be replayed.
he was deliberately trying to cause a stalemate both games, he could never win game 1 or game 2 but i was still mining and trying my best to stop him from doing this but nothing worked, he had a chance the first game and it was a rematch but he did the same game 2 i think it was fair what they did.
added to OP
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On April 19 2014 23:48 Pangpootata wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2014 23:46 VegaMatt wrote:On April 19 2014 23:44 ZodaSoda wrote:
This is more of the case of players not switching to counters and just making swarmhosts than swarmhosts causing stalemates... there is no counter in zvz to swarmhost How about transitioning into air? Or abusing the lack of mobility of SH by running zerglings into his base? There's a reason why we don't see SH vs SH in high level games (Proleague); because SH is not really a good unit in ZvZ.
Are you kidding me? Swarm Hosts are the best unit for Zerg right now. Who doesn't like free units?
Ling run by wouldn't work because of Locusts and Spine Crawlers. Mutas wouldn't work because Zergs get 50 billion Spore Crawlers now.
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Somewhere right now a Blizzard employee is amending the rules for WCS Tournament:
7e) The tournament organizers and admins may NOT ban the use of any unit included in the Starcraft II Heart of the Swarm multiplayer.
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On April 19 2014 23:52 Zaphid wrote:
I smell an ESEX article in the making :D
I thought this was an ESEX article when I saw the thread's title.
this is awesome btw
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United States33709 Posts
always two sides to a story!
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On April 19 2014 23:56 VTJRaen wrote:
Full disclosure: I am the Mutliplay eSports Co-Ordinator and the person who agreed with and enforced this specific rule.
Just to note, Swarmhosts were not banned, and are not banned at iSeries.
An administrative decision was made after a re-game due to a natural stalemate, that in the second game Miniraser was in a position where he was playing for another re-game and, given the stated rules regarding such actions (especially with specific time restraints) that the map win would be awarded to his opponent.
Miniraser was understandably frustrated, and took those frustrations first to the admins and then to Twitter.
Thanks for the clarification. Sounds legit to me.
EDIT: Title should probably be changed
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On April 19 2014 23:56 Ourk wrote:
ok im sorry but this is so wrong, they didnt ban the Swamhosts it was the fact both games mini and i went SH both games i was out playing him and he was forced to uproot into his base, on the i51 webstie you can look at the rules and it says
4.11. Draws & Stalemates
If a player deliberately plays for a stalemate, administrators hold the right to decide the outcome of the game.
If there is a natural stalemate the game will be replayed.
he was deliberately trying to cause a stalemate both games, he could never win game 1 or game 2 but i was still mining and trying my best to stop him from doing this but nothing worked, he had a chance the first game and it was a rematch but he did the same game 2 i think it was fair what they did.
I wonder if a terran goes to snipe nexuses and floating buildings to the corners of a map counts as the same. I must say that being given a loss because your opponent can't kill you sounds like a horrible way to decide games to me.
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Norway839 Posts
Players can either
A) Blinding cloud + baneling bomb vs the 1base spore swarmhost save, or if leading player cant afford this go for:
B) Agree to a re-game as soon as possible, you know even better than admins when stuff are gonna get bonkers so dont make it more difficult than it has to be
On blizzard's end it would probably make sense to implement:
- Brood Lords immune to abducts (ultralisk was already hotfixed, muta was "kind of hotfixed", so why not.
- Spores nerfed vs non-light Zerg units. change spore bonus from +30 dmg vs biological into +30 dmg vs biological light. Corruptors, overlords and brood lords take too much damage as it is now.
- A more extreme change: Allow for abduction(incl. uproot) of spore and spine crawlers by vipers? 
As stupid as it may sound the current ZvZ endgame would benefit from returning to the WoL situation. It had way more depth than the current SH/spore/viper.
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On April 19 2014 23:56 Pangpootata wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2014 23:52 Squat wrote:On April 19 2014 23:48 Pangpootata wrote:On April 19 2014 23:46 VegaMatt wrote:On April 19 2014 23:44 ZodaSoda wrote:
This is more of the case of players not switching to counters and just making swarmhosts than swarmhosts causing stalemates... there is no counter in zvz to swarmhost How about transitioning into air? Or abusing the lack of mobility of SH by running zerglings into his base? There's a reason why we don't see SH vs SH in high level games (Proleague); because SH is not really a good unit in ZvZ. Very map dependent. On certain maps, what you describe is absolutely doable. On others, there really is no way to break entrenched SH turtles. Zerg air just gets murdered by spores and vipers. The reason you don't see SH in ZvZ at that level is because of a different meta compared to EU, and also because if you scout your opponent rushing to SH you can often just go and kill him. Once it's established, it's virtually unbreakable. It's nothing to do with a different meta. In early and mid game ZvZ, it is extremely important that your zergling/roach count does not fall too far behind your opponent, or it will create a timing where you die outright. Going into swarmhosts is just gifting your opponent a free victory, unless it's a low level game.
Which is pretty much exactly what the "if you scout your opponent rushing to SH you can often just go and kill him" line was about. The selective reading in this place can be rather aggravating from time to time.
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Players can either
A) Blinding cloud + baneling bomb vs the 1base spore swarmhost save, or if leading player cant afford this go for:
B) Agree to a re-game as soon as possible, you know even better than admins when stuff are gonna get bonkers so dont make it more difficult than it has to be
On blizzard's end it would probably make sense to implement:
- Brood Lords immune to abducts (ultralisk was already hotfixed, muta was "kind of hotfixed", so why not.
- Spores nerfed vs non-light Zerg units. change spore bonus from +30 dmg vs biological into +30 dmg vs biological light. Corruptors, overlords and brood lords take too much damage as it is now.
- A more extreme change: Allow for abduction(incl. uproot) of spore and spine crawlers by vipers?
As stupid as it may sound the current ZvZ endgame would benefit from returning to the WoL situation. It had way more depth than the current SH/spore/viper.
The player who was ahead in this situation had no gas remaining.
They did re-game and in the re-game Miniraser did the same, made Swarm Hosts and pulled into his main to force another stalemate. Don't know what you do then.
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im not watching much sc2 these days, but i once saw stephano playing zvz on heavy rain and the opponent was literally sitting in his main base (he used to have more bases obv) with 50 spores and swarmhosts and the game took over 2 hours
so fuck whoever does that i dont sympathize with miniraser at all
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On April 20 2014 00:02 Wardi wrote:Show nested quote +Players can either
A) Blinding cloud + baneling bomb vs the 1base spore swarmhost save, or if leading player cant afford this go for:
B) Agree to a re-game as soon as possible, you know even better than admins when stuff are gonna get bonkers so dont make it more difficult than it has to be
On blizzard's end it would probably make sense to implement:
- Brood Lords immune to abducts (ultralisk was already hotfixed, muta was "kind of hotfixed", so why not.
- Spores nerfed vs non-light Zerg units. change spore bonus from +30 dmg vs biological into +30 dmg vs biological light. Corruptors, overlords and brood lords take too much damage as it is now.
- A more extreme change: Allow for abduction(incl. uproot) of spore and spine crawlers by vipers?
As stupid as it may sound the current ZvZ endgame would benefit from returning to the WoL situation. It had way more depth than the current SH/spore/viper.
The player who was ahead in this situation had no gas remaining. They did re-game and in the re-game Miniraser did the same, made Swarm Hosts and pulled into his main to force another stalemate. Don't know what you do then.
I fail to see how it's different from what terrans do in TvP. If your opponent has no resources to kill your floating buildings, will he be awarded a win at i51 regardless?
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Blizzard doesn't care it's not World of Warcraft they already have your money. I stopped watching/playing SC2 ages ago but they still have my $$.
Time to switch to a real game with a company that cares. (league, dota, take your pick!)
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This is so fucking funny hahahahahhaha.
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On April 20 2014 00:03 nkr wrote:Show nested quote +On April 20 2014 00:02 Wardi wrote:Players can either
A) Blinding cloud + baneling bomb vs the 1base spore swarmhost save, or if leading player cant afford this go for:
B) Agree to a re-game as soon as possible, you know even better than admins when stuff are gonna get bonkers so dont make it more difficult than it has to be
On blizzard's end it would probably make sense to implement:
- Brood Lords immune to abducts (ultralisk was already hotfixed, muta was "kind of hotfixed", so why not.
- Spores nerfed vs non-light Zerg units. change spore bonus from +30 dmg vs biological into +30 dmg vs biological light. Corruptors, overlords and brood lords take too much damage as it is now.
- A more extreme change: Allow for abduction(incl. uproot) of spore and spine crawlers by vipers?
As stupid as it may sound the current ZvZ endgame would benefit from returning to the WoL situation. It had way more depth than the current SH/spore/viper.
The player who was ahead in this situation had no gas remaining. They did re-game and in the re-game Miniraser did the same, made Swarm Hosts and pulled into his main to force another stalemate. Don't know what you do then. I fail to see how it's different from what terrans do in TvP. If your opponent has no resources to kill your floating buildings, will he be awarded a win at i51 regardless?
I feel admins made the right decision. They needed the games to move forward, they already offered them one rematch which they took. When the situation arose again they had no choice but to turn to the rules and offer the win to the player who was winning before a stalemate was forced.
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On April 20 2014 00:03 nkr wrote:Show nested quote +On April 20 2014 00:02 Wardi wrote:Players can either
A) Blinding cloud + baneling bomb vs the 1base spore swarmhost save, or if leading player cant afford this go for:
B) Agree to a re-game as soon as possible, you know even better than admins when stuff are gonna get bonkers so dont make it more difficult than it has to be
On blizzard's end it would probably make sense to implement:
- Brood Lords immune to abducts (ultralisk was already hotfixed, muta was "kind of hotfixed", so why not.
- Spores nerfed vs non-light Zerg units. change spore bonus from +30 dmg vs biological into +30 dmg vs biological light. Corruptors, overlords and brood lords take too much damage as it is now.
- A more extreme change: Allow for abduction(incl. uproot) of spore and spine crawlers by vipers?
As stupid as it may sound the current ZvZ endgame would benefit from returning to the WoL situation. It had way more depth than the current SH/spore/viper.
The player who was ahead in this situation had no gas remaining. They did re-game and in the re-game Miniraser did the same, made Swarm Hosts and pulled into his main to force another stalemate. Don't know what you do then. I fail to see how it's different from what terrans do in TvP. If your opponent has no resources to kill your floating buildings, will he be awarded a win at i51 regardless?
I find myself agreeing you this idea.
Starcraft is just as much about not losing as it is about winning. Going for the stalemate has been around since the beginning. I'd be incredibly upset if an admin decided that my opponent should win because I didn't want to just keel over and die. There's money on the line in these games, and a lot of these people do this full time. It's absurd that they expect them to just give up.
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On April 20 2014 00:06 Wardi wrote:Show nested quote +On April 20 2014 00:03 nkr wrote:On April 20 2014 00:02 Wardi wrote:Players can either
A) Blinding cloud + baneling bomb vs the 1base spore swarmhost save, or if leading player cant afford this go for:
B) Agree to a re-game as soon as possible, you know even better than admins when stuff are gonna get bonkers so dont make it more difficult than it has to be
On blizzard's end it would probably make sense to implement:
- Brood Lords immune to abducts (ultralisk was already hotfixed, muta was "kind of hotfixed", so why not.
- Spores nerfed vs non-light Zerg units. change spore bonus from +30 dmg vs biological into +30 dmg vs biological light. Corruptors, overlords and brood lords take too much damage as it is now.
- A more extreme change: Allow for abduction(incl. uproot) of spore and spine crawlers by vipers?
As stupid as it may sound the current ZvZ endgame would benefit from returning to the WoL situation. It had way more depth than the current SH/spore/viper.
The player who was ahead in this situation had no gas remaining. They did re-game and in the re-game Miniraser did the same, made Swarm Hosts and pulled into his main to force another stalemate. Don't know what you do then. I fail to see how it's different from what terrans do in TvP. If your opponent has no resources to kill your floating buildings, will he be awarded a win at i51 regardless? I feel admins made the right decision. They needed the games to move forward, they already offered them one rematch which they took. When the situation arose again they had no choice but to turn to the rules and offer the win to the player who was winning before a stalemate was forced.
Sounds like a yes ;p
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This is a pretty hilarious yet a really sad situation.
The fact that Blizzard hasn't addressed this situation despite multiple occurrences which have been noted on reddit (FireCake vs Stephano ladder games are the immediate thought).
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EPT
