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On April 16 2014 05:29 ApocAlypsE007 wrote:
I'm well beyond my Masters WoL glory days. Got demoted to Gold from Plat (damn PvT), got back to plat after 5 games. Go figure...
Back then the top 10% or so was in masters but nowdays it's like 2% including GM and there used to be many more "casual" players in the lower leagues who aren't as numerous today meaning that former mid-top players will get shifted down.
I do wish blizzard would remove these arbitrary leagues though and just put a flat top 2% on the ladder is masters with the next 18% being masters and so on so we don't have this mess.
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Last season, I got kicked out of GM due to bonus pool. I was only inactive for 3 weeks, but when I played my placement match, to get replaced in a league, I won and got placed into Diamond, lol.
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2400 pts masters and got demoted to diamond aswell... I didn't even think I was close to diamond mmr...
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On April 16 2014 06:15 Hider wrote:Show nested quote +On April 16 2014 05:37 Chocolate wrote:
Can't wait to ladder during the summer... haven't played since early January, and was diamond then. Yay
Can we agree at least that, these days, diamond is at least a somewhat respectable ranking? Back in the day it was "masters (sometimes with a specific rank ie top 8) or gtfo, but now I'm not sure if that is really fair A high diamond today is probably better than a high master 10 months ago.
Not really sure about that tbh. If you said 2 years, certainly but if I take my case as an exemple, I didn't play that much on hots, I think I got worst since the end of WoL (my APM dropped from ~150 to ~100) and i'm still usually toping the top8 master every season I play seriously.
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On April 16 2014 05:23 korona wrote:Show nested quote +On April 16 2014 05:02 Dangermousecatdog wrote:On April 16 2014 03:31 korona wrote:On April 16 2014 03:24 Dangermousecatdog wrote:
It seems that demotion has no affect to your MMR. So you have the MMR, but not the rank. You play exactly the same opponents as before, only that ether you or they are fooled by your displayed rank. And you play 1-5 games and your rank is back to what it was before. What is the point of this? Only thing I can think off is that as a side effect of the no demotion thing that blizzard has going on, blizzard has decided to demote half the active ladder players. Why is Blizzard so afraid of simply promoting and demoting people according to their current MMR? None of this no demotion, wait till Blizzard is certain of your MMR crap that makes it so some players have lower league but higher MMR. No. The league you are placed in reflects your MMR. If you are placed e.g. in gold, then your MMR at that moment was in gold league range. And when you cross the league threshold you are pretty much immediately promoted. Exception to this are fresh accounts that are placed lower than their actual MMR is but at the 25th match (If they win as you can only be promoted with a win), they are promoted to their actual league at the latest. Anecdotal evidence of the sheer number of people being demoted, only to shortly be promoted back in 5 games or less suggest that MMR and league you are placed in after the first placement game is no longer true. Also, Blizzard waits till MMR is stabilised, meaning that normally it is impossible to bounce between leagues, also meaning that it is possible for your MMR to be at a different league, and that the leagues appear to have a lot of overlap depending on what division you are in (don't ask my why Blizzard does this). Yeah, so the league you are placed in has never accurately reflected MMR, and the strange demotion mechanic that Blizzard has going on makes it even worse. Incorrect. After the placement match you are placed in a league that reflects your MMR at that moment (fresh accounts that start from blank MMR are exceptions to this rule as they are placed conservatively). Also you might not know that I have been the main developer of the MMR tool for more than a year. I do have access to plenty of hard data to back up what I am saying. And regarding promotions after the placement match: During the WoL era Blizzard clearly used some kind of MMR moving average regarding the promotions (stabilization period, exact formulas have never been revealed). But after HotS was released the character accounts have been promoted pretty much immediately when they cross the thresholds. But also during the WoL era it was possible to get immediately promoted one match after the placement match if you crossed the threshold.
Or you know, maybe just maybe you don't have the monopoly on just how Blizzard ladder operates. Blizzard can change whatever they like without telling anyone, and that is exactly what they do. There is a lot of people mysteriously being demoted, only to be promoted shortly afterwards. it could be anything causing this effect, but you have fixed assumptions. a So it's fairly clear that league you are in does not reflect your MMR. Like seriously, you can't even be demoted. I think that's a serious case of league not representing the MMR. You really can't argue otherwise.
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On April 16 2014 06:55 Faust852 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 16 2014 06:15 Hider wrote:On April 16 2014 05:37 Chocolate wrote:
Can't wait to ladder during the summer... haven't played since early January, and was diamond then. Yay
Can we agree at least that, these days, diamond is at least a somewhat respectable ranking? Back in the day it was "masters (sometimes with a specific rank ie top 8) or gtfo, but now I'm not sure if that is really fair A high diamond today is probably better than a high master 10 months ago. Not really sure about that tbh. If you said 2 years, certainly but if I take my case as an exemple, I didn't play that much on hots, I think I got worst since the end of WoL (my APM dropped from ~150 to ~100) and i'm still usually toping the top8 master every season I play seriously.
I remember being top top1000 master early HOTS, which I would consider being high master since there was around 6k players in master league back then.
I am in multiple ways a better player today, however "just" in top diamond - though I haven't played alot of games and suffered from a lot of decay, however, getting back into master is definitely not easy.
Point is this - If you a top 10% diamond player could go back in time and battle against a top 10% master player 10 months ago --> Diamond player of today would IMO win.
Master league 2 years ago = plat today or something like this. 3 years ago = Silver/Gold.
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On April 16 2014 07:11 Hider wrote:Show nested quote +On April 16 2014 06:55 Faust852 wrote:On April 16 2014 06:15 Hider wrote:On April 16 2014 05:37 Chocolate wrote:
Can't wait to ladder during the summer... haven't played since early January, and was diamond then. Yay
Can we agree at least that, these days, diamond is at least a somewhat respectable ranking? Back in the day it was "masters (sometimes with a specific rank ie top 8) or gtfo, but now I'm not sure if that is really fair A high diamond today is probably better than a high master 10 months ago. Not really sure about that tbh. If you said 2 years, certainly but if I take my case as an exemple, I didn't play that much on hots, I think I got worst since the end of WoL (my APM dropped from ~150 to ~100) and i'm still usually toping the top8 master every season I play seriously. I remember being top top1000 master early HOTS, which I would consider being high master since there was around 6k players in master league back then. I am in multiple ways a better player today, however "just" in top diamond - though I haven't played alot of games and suffered from a lot of decay, however, getting back into master is definitely not easy. Point is this - If you a top 10% diamond player could go back in time and battle against a top 10% master player 10 months ago --> Diamond player of today would IMO win. Master league 2 years ago = plat today or something like this. 3 years ago = Silver/Gold.
However, at the begining of hots everyone could be master since there was a bug and over 8% of the player pool was in master league. Now there is already over 1k master and it represents only 2%, with a lot of people being demoted this season.
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![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/RzP4XLY.jpg)
considering i averaged <10 games a season, i knew it was bound to happen eventually
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On April 16 2014 07:00 Dangermousecatdog wrote:Show nested quote +On April 16 2014 05:23 korona wrote:On April 16 2014 05:02 Dangermousecatdog wrote:On April 16 2014 03:31 korona wrote:On April 16 2014 03:24 Dangermousecatdog wrote:
It seems that demotion has no affect to your MMR. So you have the MMR, but not the rank. You play exactly the same opponents as before, only that ether you or they are fooled by your displayed rank. And you play 1-5 games and your rank is back to what it was before. What is the point of this? Only thing I can think off is that as a side effect of the no demotion thing that blizzard has going on, blizzard has decided to demote half the active ladder players. Why is Blizzard so afraid of simply promoting and demoting people according to their current MMR? None of this no demotion, wait till Blizzard is certain of your MMR crap that makes it so some players have lower league but higher MMR. No. The league you are placed in reflects your MMR. If you are placed e.g. in gold, then your MMR at that moment was in gold league range. And when you cross the league threshold you are pretty much immediately promoted. Exception to this are fresh accounts that are placed lower than their actual MMR is but at the 25th match (If they win as you can only be promoted with a win), they are promoted to their actual league at the latest. Anecdotal evidence of the sheer number of people being demoted, only to shortly be promoted back in 5 games or less suggest that MMR and league you are placed in after the first placement game is no longer true. Also, Blizzard waits till MMR is stabilised, meaning that normally it is impossible to bounce between leagues, also meaning that it is possible for your MMR to be at a different league, and that the leagues appear to have a lot of overlap depending on what division you are in (don't ask my why Blizzard does this). Yeah, so the league you are placed in has never accurately reflected MMR, and the strange demotion mechanic that Blizzard has going on makes it even worse. Incorrect. After the placement match you are placed in a league that reflects your MMR at that moment (fresh accounts that start from blank MMR are exceptions to this rule as they are placed conservatively). Also you might not know that I have been the main developer of the MMR tool for more than a year. I do have access to plenty of hard data to back up what I am saying. And regarding promotions after the placement match: During the WoL era Blizzard clearly used some kind of MMR moving average regarding the promotions (stabilization period, exact formulas have never been revealed). But after HotS was released the character accounts have been promoted pretty much immediately when they cross the thresholds. But also during the WoL era it was possible to get immediately promoted one match after the placement match if you crossed the threshold. Or you know, maybe just maybe you don't have the monopoly on just how Blizzard ladder operates. Blizzard can change whatever they like without telling anyone, and that is exactly what they do. There is a lot of people mysteriously being demoted, only to be promoted shortly afterwards. it could be anything causing this effect, but you have fixed assumptions.
There has not been any big mysteries for a while. The biggest mystery in the first two HotS seasons was the MMR decay. It took while to understand what was happening regarding that (originally thought it has to be a bug in the ladder system, as it seemed illogical to have so considerable decay, but in the end it turned out to be a planned feature). The league placements have been functioning just as expected for a long time. Thought for this season I do not have reliable data as Blizzard's web profiles are still malfunctioning (giving incorrect bonus pools). During the HotS era there has not been any considerable changes except offset changes twice (first time at start of third HotS season and second time couple of days after the start of last season). Regarding this season things have looked normal thus far. But when there is more data available, things will be checked.
And yes. Data is checked from time to time. There has been things in the past that Blizzard has conveniently forgot to mention (such as MMR decay) or has stated more simplified than it actually is (for example there was no offset changes at the start of last season even if they claimed. In reality they did the offset changes couple of days after the season start). Every season it is checked if there is changes to the offsets or some unexpected things regarding the several thousands of user profiles.
On April 16 2014 07:00 Dangermousecatdog wrote: So it's fairly clear that league you are in does not reflect your MMR. Like seriously, you can't even be demoted. I think that's a serious case of league not representing the MMR. You really can't argue otherwise.
The league reflects your MMR _at the moment_ you are placed there. After that it can differ.
On April 16 2014 07:15 Faust852 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 16 2014 07:11 Hider wrote:On April 16 2014 06:55 Faust852 wrote:On April 16 2014 06:15 Hider wrote:On April 16 2014 05:37 Chocolate wrote:
Can't wait to ladder during the summer... haven't played since early January, and was diamond then. Yay
Can we agree at least that, these days, diamond is at least a somewhat respectable ranking? Back in the day it was "masters (sometimes with a specific rank ie top 8) or gtfo, but now I'm not sure if that is really fair A high diamond today is probably better than a high master 10 months ago. Not really sure about that tbh. If you said 2 years, certainly but if I take my case as an exemple, I didn't play that much on hots, I think I got worst since the end of WoL (my APM dropped from ~150 to ~100) and i'm still usually toping the top8 master every season I play seriously. I remember being top top1000 master early HOTS, which I would consider being high master since there was around 6k players in master league back then. I am in multiple ways a better player today, however "just" in top diamond - though I haven't played alot of games and suffered from a lot of decay, however, getting back into master is definitely not easy. Point is this - If you a top 10% diamond player could go back in time and battle against a top 10% master player 10 months ago --> Diamond player of today would IMO win. Master league 2 years ago = plat today or something like this. 3 years ago = Silver/Gold. However, at the begining of hots everyone could be master since there was a bug and over 8% of the player pool was in master league. Now there is already over 1k master and it represents only 2%, with a lot of people being demoted this season.
It was not a bug. They had just set low entry thresholds. Also MMR ranges for each league were smaller (less wins needed to cross each league's range). After the two first seasons they changed the offsets / thresholds making it harder to reach master
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No demotion for me, still in masters. That said, I know a LOT of people who got placed diamond. I assume I didn't because I had just got promoted before the ladder lock.
I could have sworn I one of last season's GM in diamond yesterday too.
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I was like Plat, then I got demoted because I did not play enough. Then I was gold and did not play because its no fun to beat real gold-leaguers.
Now I'm in Silver and well, its even less fun. I won 2 games by just making two fucking Reapers and that killed like their whole Mineral-Line....
I guess I wait until I'm in Bronze, huh? After Bronze I get domoted back to Plat, right?
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First placement in a few seasons where I -didn't- get demoted :p
It does seem like it's a bit harsher though with demoting people at the start of the season since the new rules about no mid-season ones came in. Never took me more than a few games to remake the promotion i dropped on placement though...
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On April 16 2014 08:35 Kiernan wrote:
I was like Plat, then I got demoted because I did not play enough. Then I was gold and did not play because its no fun to beat real gold-leaguers.
Now I'm in Silver and well, its even less fun. I won 2 games by just making two fucking Reapers and that killed like their whole Mineral-Line....
I guess I wait until I'm in Bronze, huh? After Bronze I get domoted back to Plat, right?
If you play for two days you're back where you're supposed to be, I mean come on dude. It's never taken me more than 50 consecutive wins to get to a reasonable level.
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On April 15 2014 16:52 MrMotionPicture wrote:
Well since you can no longer be demoted during the season, I think they do this to reset the ladder a little and make sure everyone is where they should be. I'm sure you'll get back to master in no time :3
You can absolutely be demoted mid season.. no idea where this idea came from but I hear it a lot.
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On April 15 2014 18:34 oGoZenob wrote:
I went 15-3 last season and get demoted last night -_-
18 games in a season = not nearly enough games to avoid decay.
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United States12237 Posts
On April 16 2014 07:00 Dangermousecatdog wrote:Show nested quote +On April 16 2014 05:23 korona wrote:On April 16 2014 05:02 Dangermousecatdog wrote:On April 16 2014 03:31 korona wrote:On April 16 2014 03:24 Dangermousecatdog wrote:
It seems that demotion has no affect to your MMR. So you have the MMR, but not the rank. You play exactly the same opponents as before, only that ether you or they are fooled by your displayed rank. And you play 1-5 games and your rank is back to what it was before. What is the point of this? Only thing I can think off is that as a side effect of the no demotion thing that blizzard has going on, blizzard has decided to demote half the active ladder players. Why is Blizzard so afraid of simply promoting and demoting people according to their current MMR? None of this no demotion, wait till Blizzard is certain of your MMR crap that makes it so some players have lower league but higher MMR. No. The league you are placed in reflects your MMR. If you are placed e.g. in gold, then your MMR at that moment was in gold league range. And when you cross the league threshold you are pretty much immediately promoted. Exception to this are fresh accounts that are placed lower than their actual MMR is but at the 25th match (If they win as you can only be promoted with a win), they are promoted to their actual league at the latest. Anecdotal evidence of the sheer number of people being demoted, only to shortly be promoted back in 5 games or less suggest that MMR and league you are placed in after the first placement game is no longer true. Also, Blizzard waits till MMR is stabilised, meaning that normally it is impossible to bounce between leagues, also meaning that it is possible for your MMR to be at a different league, and that the leagues appear to have a lot of overlap depending on what division you are in (don't ask my why Blizzard does this). Yeah, so the league you are placed in has never accurately reflected MMR, and the strange demotion mechanic that Blizzard has going on makes it even worse. Incorrect. After the placement match you are placed in a league that reflects your MMR at that moment (fresh accounts that start from blank MMR are exceptions to this rule as they are placed conservatively). Also you might not know that I have been the main developer of the MMR tool for more than a year. I do have access to plenty of hard data to back up what I am saying. And regarding promotions after the placement match: During the WoL era Blizzard clearly used some kind of MMR moving average regarding the promotions (stabilization period, exact formulas have never been revealed). But after HotS was released the character accounts have been promoted pretty much immediately when they cross the thresholds. But also during the WoL era it was possible to get immediately promoted one match after the placement match if you crossed the threshold. Or you know, maybe just maybe you don't have the monopoly on just how Blizzard ladder operates. Blizzard can change whatever they like without telling anyone, and that is exactly what they do. There is a lot of people mysteriously being demoted, only to be promoted shortly afterwards. it could be anything causing this effect, but you have fixed assumptions. a So it's fairly clear that league you are in does not reflect your MMR. Like seriously, you can't even be demoted. I think that's a serious case of league not representing the MMR. You really can't argue otherwise.
Nothing he's said is incorrect. You're right that Blizzard can sometimes clandestinely change things, but this phenomenon of "magic" demotions and re-promotions has been happening since they removed midseason demotions, and it turns out that those players either decayed or ended the previous season below the floor of their former league. It's very difficult to determine whether a player's MMR is below their league's floor because of certain protections that prevent points from being anchored at zero, but people tend to dismiss the possibility because they're top 10 in their division or have 1000 points or whatever.
A lot of these players hover around the border, meaning sometimes they're above and sometimes below. When they get above the border, they get promoted. However, they don't get demoted if they fall back below, and that's a result of an intentional change. They'll never know whether their MMR fell below until the following season, and only if it stays below at the time of the next season's placement match.
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On April 16 2014 10:24 bri9and wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2014 16:52 MrMotionPicture wrote:
Well since you can no longer be demoted during the season, I think they do this to reset the ladder a little and make sure everyone is where they should be. I'm sure you'll get back to master in no time :3 You can absolutely be demoted mid season.. no idea where this idea came from but I hear it a lot.
Since when? I remember Blizz saying they removed the possibility a long time ago. Did they change their minds?
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Didn't play for 3 weeks, diamond to gold in all 3 random team leagues.
Now the level of play is so crap again it's just not fun, probably the end of 3.5 years of laddering.
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On April 16 2014 11:05 surreal1600 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 16 2014 10:24 bri9and wrote:On April 15 2014 16:52 MrMotionPicture wrote:
Well since you can no longer be demoted during the season, I think they do this to reset the ladder a little and make sure everyone is where they should be. I'm sure you'll get back to master in no time :3 You can absolutely be demoted mid season.. no idea where this idea came from but I hear it a lot. Since when? I remember Blizz saying they removed the possibility a long time ago. Did they change their minds?
No, I think bri9and is misinformed. Cannot get demoted mid season (although I'm open to the possibility that I'm misinformed)
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So much drama over getting demoted for like 3-10 games.
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EPT
