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On April 17 2014 01:34 DjayEl wrote:Show nested quote +On April 17 2014 01:10 Excalibur_Z wrote:On April 16 2014 23:41 KingAlphard wrote:
Every season this thread appears... wow.
It's really, really simple actually.
People can't be demoted during the season, but they can be promoted, that means that during the season there are more players than it should in higher leagues. So at the beginning of each season, many people in higher leagues get demoted.
Of course you get demoted only if you are at the bottom of your league. And don't start telling things like "b-but I was top 8" it doesn't mean anything. The reason this thread appears is simple, as you say, and for the reason you say as well. Generally, the players who post that they were demoted at the start of the following season are the ones who would have been demoted midseason had demotions not been disabled. Some have questioned why midseason demotions are disabled at all, and ask what purpose that change serves. I think that's equally simple. Without any evidence or metrics to back me up, I'd guess that a lot of players who saw the demotion message midseason probably just gave up for the rest of the season. "Screw this game, I'll just try again next season." With MMR decay introduced at the same time, that probably would have made things even more confusing because players could get demoted potentially multiple leagues after a single game following an inactivity period. So, since season rolls are times of great uncertainty for the community anyway, just postpone any demotions until then. It just does not work like that and I have evidence of this. I started last season in plat due to MMR decay and won my way back to diamond with a 60% win ratio. Then my win ratio started to stabilize around 53% as I took more losses, but NEVER EVER get below 53%. Yes I was in top diamond, and no I don't give a f*ng crap it still means I'm in the bottom of my league, cause my win ratio was above 50% and my opponents were tough. I played every day and got 350+ games played, so no MMR decay should happen. Yet, I won my placement match and got placed into plat again, facing bad players (plats, even golds, true ones not guys who decayed or some crap), thus my ratio is now above 60% as I start climbing again (70% against some races), and only in top plat I started facing opponents who took me games. This whole 'its the same thing league mean nothing, just play' beautiful theory is awesome, but it does not explain my situation. Why would I face worse opponents just because of the season change ? That does not make sense. If my MMR is the same, then I should be around 50% all the time, no matter my league placement. And I can hear some pleople go on with their "just play then you'll get back in diamond in no time", well no. I payed good money for a game which ranking system doesn't work like adverstised, Blizzard owes me an explanation. It was like that the 3 previous seasons. Either they change this or communicate better on this, but something is obviously affecting my MMR down beside the supposed decay (not possible, I play every day) or me loosing too much (never went on a loose streak, never went under the 50% win ratio). Upping MMR takes time and commitment, even if I can "get back" to diamond, why would I be happy to get my hard-earned points (MMR points) just vanish like this for no reason. Its like you play the shit ouf of the game, struggling each game, investing time and energy, and all of the sudden the system says "BAM here is 20 free losses for you" (again, NOT MMR decay, or not in the way it should happen by common knowledge). And the argument would be "just get back where you were, EZPZ!". You would'nt autoquit 20 times in Ranked ladder just for the lulz and then try to re-win everything because you love wasting your time, would you? I don't either. Something is obviously horribly wrong with this system and right now I'm fed up with Blizzard. Yes, I play for fun cause I love the games not only for the point, but hell why would you use a ranking system then if it does not even work like a proper ranking system ? Half of the season I must take time to "rewin" my points, I'm done with that shit. Fuck Blizzard.
How do you know your MMR dropped? You don't really have any proof of that. Since the season just started, there are likely people who have not done their placement match yet, and as a result the overall population that has been placed on the ladder is likely smaller right now, which means in order to get their magical percentages of players filling each league, Blizzard would need to adjust what MMR range corresponds with what league so that they can get the league distribution they want. As more people do their placements and the ladder fills out again, things will go back to normal.
I was top 5 diamond and got demoted too, and in the games I've played, it appears to be the same for pretty much all the people I have played. It's just how it is with seasons. Give things a bit of time to stabilize and you will be back to normal in no time.
Also, I wouldn't go around questioning Excalibur_Z too much without solid proof to back your arguments up. He has been an authority on the workings of the ladder system since WOL came out. He knows his stuff.
Finally, overall winrate over a season doesn't necessarily matter, but instead what matters is how your win/loss is trending now and who you are winning and losing to. If you had a bunch of wins for the first half of a season and then a negative or even win rate for the second half, then chances are your MMR right now is not increasing at the rate of someone who wins more than half their games or might even slightly be decreasing, depending on the opponent. If your displayed win/loss stabilized at 53% then likely you had some early win streaks, and after that you held a roughly even win/loss rate because logically, if you were indeed winning more than half your games consistently, that win rate would slowly climb rather than stay the same.
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United States12269 Posts
On April 17 2014 01:34 DjayEl wrote:Show nested quote +On April 17 2014 01:10 Excalibur_Z wrote:On April 16 2014 23:41 KingAlphard wrote:
Every season this thread appears... wow.
It's really, really simple actually.
People can't be demoted during the season, but they can be promoted, that means that during the season there are more players than it should in higher leagues. So at the beginning of each season, many people in higher leagues get demoted.
Of course you get demoted only if you are at the bottom of your league. And don't start telling things like "b-but I was top 8" it doesn't mean anything. The reason this thread appears is simple, as you say, and for the reason you say as well. Generally, the players who post that they were demoted at the start of the following season are the ones who would have been demoted midseason had demotions not been disabled. Some have questioned why midseason demotions are disabled at all, and ask what purpose that change serves. I think that's equally simple. Without any evidence or metrics to back me up, I'd guess that a lot of players who saw the demotion message midseason probably just gave up for the rest of the season. "Screw this game, I'll just try again next season." With MMR decay introduced at the same time, that probably would have made things even more confusing because players could get demoted potentially multiple leagues after a single game following an inactivity period. So, since season rolls are times of great uncertainty for the community anyway, just postpone any demotions until then. It just does not work like that and I have evidence of this. I started last season in plat due to MMR decay and won my way back to diamond with a 60% win ratio. Then my win ratio started to stabilize around 53% as I took more losses, but NEVER EVER get below 53%. Yes I was in top diamond, and no I don't give a f*ng crap it still means I'm in the bottom of my league, cause my win ratio was above 50% and my opponents were tough. I played every day and got 350+ games played, so no MMR decay should happen. Yet, I won my placement match and got placed into plat again, facing bad players (plats, even golds, true ones not guys who decayed or some crap), thus my ratio is now above 60% as I start climbing again (70% against some races), and only in top plat I started facing opponents who took me games. This whole 'its the same thing league mean nothing, just play' beautiful theory is awesome, but it does not explain my situation. Why would I face worse opponents just because of the season change ? That does not make sense. If my MMR is the same, then I should be around 50% all the time, no matter my league placement. And I can hear some pleople go on with their "just play then you'll get back in diamond in no time", well no. I payed good money for a game which ranking system doesn't work like adverstised, Blizzard owes me an explanation. It was like that the 3 previous seasons. Either they change this or communicate better on this, but something is obviously affecting my MMR down beside the supposed decay (not possible, I play every day) or me loosing too much (never went on a loose streak, never went under the 50% win ratio). Upping MMR takes time and commitment, even if I can "get back" to diamond, why would I be happy to get my hard-earned points (MMR points) just vanish like this for no reason. Its like you play the shit ouf of the game, struggling each game, investing time and energy, and all of the sudden the system says "BAM here is 20 free losses for you" (again, NOT MMR decay, or not in the way it should happen by common knowledge). And the argument would be "just get back where you were, EZPZ!". You would'nt autoquit 20 times in Ranked ladder just for the lulz and then try to re-win everything because you love wasting your time, would you? I don't either. Something is obviously horribly wrong with this system and right now I'm fed up with Blizzard. Yes, I play for fun cause I love the games not only for the point, but hell why would you use a ranking system then if it does not even work like a proper ranking system ? Half of the season I must take time to "rewin" my points, I'm done with that shit. Fuck Blizzard.
That is a different matter, one better explained by this post: http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/12506541134
Maybe you could look it over and report your adjusted points for last season?
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How do you know your MMR dropped? You don't really have any proof of that. Since the season just started, there are likely people who have not done their placement match yet, and as a result the overall population that has been placed on the ladder is likely smaller right now, which means in order to get their magical percentages of players filling each league, Blizzard would need to adjust what MMR range corresponds with what league so that they can get the league distribution they want. As more people do their placements and the ladder fills out again, things will go back to normal.
Hard to say, it still does not explain why my opponents are far worse than the ones I was facing at the end of the other season.
I will go through that for sure, but for now I can attest that for me it is not an enjoyable experience at all and I believe Bizzard should be more transparent about this. Or display true MMR or something. It's too much disturbing, it's a hassle each time to understand where you belong and how do you compare with, say, your friends in other divisions.
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On April 17 2014 03:20 DjayEl wrote:Show nested quote +How do you know your MMR dropped? You don't really have any proof of that. Since the season just started, there are likely people who have not done their placement match yet, and as a result the overall population that has been placed on the ladder is likely smaller right now, which means in order to get their magical percentages of players filling each league, Blizzard would need to adjust what MMR range corresponds with what league so that they can get the league distribution they want. As more people do their placements and the ladder fills out again, things will go back to normal. Hard to say, it still does not explain why my opponents are far worse than the ones I was facing at the end of the other season. I will go through that for sure, but for now I can attest that for me it is not an enjoyable experience at all and I believe Bizzard should be more transparent about this. Or display true MMR or something. It's too much disturbing, it's a hassle each time to understand where you belong and how do you compare with, say, your friends in other divisions.
Well a rough approxmiaton for "true mmr" would be this.
True MMR = Points + bonus pool - MMR lost due to inactivity - total amount of bonus pool gained throughout season
If that number is below 0, expect to drop a league next season.
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This thread has officially derailed.
Remember, guys. You are so upset over a game with already-arbitrary rankings.
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Northern Ireland27464 Posts
On April 17 2014 03:28 vult wrote:
This thread has officially derailed.
Remember, guys. You are so upset over a game with already-arbitrary rankings.
Plenty of the complaints are more along the lines that the player in question maintains a certain level of play regardless of inactivity, and their MMR gets tanked down to the extent that they are playing players who are so far below them that it doesn't make it fun for either participant.
I can play, maybe a game or two a day if even, but generally I play 20-25 game sessions pretty intermittently, say a month's gap between such things. I go and log and the opponents that I am getting are so much worse than me that I posit that the MMR decay far outweighs any decline in skill that could be expected with such inactivity.
In my particular case I'm just busy as hell, but always found time for ladder here and there because I felt that the players I was playing were on a par with me. Now it's that I log, play 3 or 4 games vs guys who are WAY worse than me and just feel bored.
I don't particularly care for my league or my icon, but for good games that don't feel like shooting fish in a barrel.
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I am almost back to plat.
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I am looking forward to the whine fest when the active player number decreases even further.
Imo its better to base ones progress on his own quality of play (like force one self to scout more or do at least 2 drops or never get supply blocked).
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I got demoted from Platinum to bronze sooooo... LOL
Truth is I definitely took a big break from playing, but bronze? To be honest I don't care what league I'm in, but there has been this general understanding that bronze is total beginner play. Sure, I'm not that good at StarCraft II but I got to Platinum on pure mechanics (I only played mass marine/medivac to improve macro).
It's weird but w/e, guess I have to play a little bit more and see if this is going to be my permanent spot and something has changed or if maybe I'll work my way back up.
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Yeah I think that post from MVP on us forums is correct. Last season bonus pool for sub master league was around 1460 if I read it correctly (that same guy said it in some other thread). I finished the season with 0 bonus pool and had 1596 points which means that I was still in the positive even if I remove the bonus pool. So as a result I stayed in my league and didn't get demoted.
It seems that win rate percentage, points, division rank etc. are actually more misleading than if we never had any of those.You actually think you are doing better (oh look at me, I am top 8 dia) and then you suddenly get demoted. Then the eyebrows get raised....
Personally I would love to have a visible MMR graph to track my current progress. Only true way to know if your MMR is rising.
I mean, even if I get matched vs players of higher league (for example master) and win, even if I check their match history and see that they are playing vs masters, I still can't know if I am getting close to promotion because as far as I know, because of no mid-season demotions, all those guys could just be diamonds (in MMR) with a master league badge.
They really made tracking progress almost impossible after they prevented mid-season demotions.Right now, only thing you can kind of tell (when you subtract bonus pool points) is if you will stay in the league or get demoted but you basically can't tell if you will get promoted or not.I guess getting more points for a win is an indicator of a sort because it suggests you are playing against a favored opponent, but still not really a reliable way of knowing.As a result, you basically feel happy when you do a placement match and see you didn't get demoted, it is really an awkward situation to be in.
If they want to insist on no mid-season demotions, they should give us visible MMR with thresholds for each league.
But returning mid-season demotions is probably more realistic.
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United States12269 Posts
You can still use the top end of the rating ranges to estimate a promotion. MMR changes faster than points so the estimate will probably be on the conservative side.
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On April 17 2014 04:23 Qwerty85 wrote:
Yeah I think that post from MVP on us forums is correct. Last season bonus pool for sub master league was around 1460 if I read it correctly (that same guy said it in some other thread). I finished the season with 0 bonus pool and had 1596 points which means that I was still in the positive even if I remove the bonus pool. So as a result I stayed in my league and didn't get demoted.
It seems that win rate percentage, points, division rank etc. are actually more misleading than if we never had any of those.You actually think you are doing better (oh look at me, I am top 8 dia) and then you suddenly get demoted. Then the eyebrows get raised....
Personally I would love to have a visible MMR graph to track my current progress. Only true way to know if your MMR is rising.
I mean, even if I get matched vs players of higher league (for example master) and win, even if I check their match history and see that they are playing vs masters, I still can't know if I am getting close to promotion because as far as I know, because of no mid-season demotions, all those guys could just be diamonds (in MMR) with a master league badge.
They really made tracking progress almost impossible after they prevented mid-season demotions.Right now, only thing you can kind of tell (when you subtract bonus pool points) is if you will stay in the league or get demoted but you basically can't tell if you will get promoted or not.I guess getting more points for a win is an indicator of a sort because it suggests you are playing against a favored opponent, but still not really a reliable way of knowing.As a result, you basically feel happy when you do a placement match and see you didn't get demoted, it is really an awkward situation to be in.
If they want to insist on no mid-season demotions, they should give us visible MMR with thresholds for each league.
But returning mid-season demotions is probably more realistic.
Just for clarification, you don't have to win against a master player to get promoted. I have got promoted twice by beating diamonds. Well, that was in WoL but it's still a point.
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blizzard's ladder and mmr decay at work. nothing new here. if you were active before and were demoted, you should be promoted in a few games.
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I'm actively playing both 2v2 and 1v1; demoted in both. After my placement, I won a single game in 2v2 and was promoted. 1v1 has not promoted but I've only played 3 games there. Last time this happened it took 10-20 games before the promotion kicked in.
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Was demoted too, don't care (so don't treat me like a whiner), just trying to understand. Is blizzard really wanting such ratios for leagues (from nios):
League Distr. (Global):
GM: 0.48%
Master: 2.10%
Diamond: 8.78%
Platinum: 8.30%
Gold: 20.74%
Silver: 33.70%
Bronze: 25.91%
I thought they wanted to make bronze the smallest (outside of GM-M, to make noobs happy) and gold the largest. These distributions really do seem weird.
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On April 24 2014 02:30 ant-1 wrote:
Was demoted too, don't care (so don't treat me like a whiner), just trying to understand. Is blizzard really wanting such ratios for leagues (from nios):
League Distr. (Global):
GM: 0.48%
Master: 2.10%
Diamond: 8.78%
Platinum: 8.30%
Gold: 20.74%
Silver: 33.70%
Bronze: 25.91%
I thought they wanted to make bronze the smallest (outside of GM-M, to make noobs happy) and gold the largest. These distributions really do seem weird.
That looks like the distribution they were trying to get away from. They implied they wanted it to be more middle-heavy yet that distribution heavily skews towards the bottom. Very weird.
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On April 24 2014 02:30 ant-1 wrote:
Was demoted too, don't care (so don't treat me like a whiner), just trying to understand. Is blizzard really wanting such ratios for leagues (from nios):
League Distr. (Global):
GM: 0.48%
Master: 2.10%
Diamond: 8.78%
Platinum: 8.30%
Gold: 20.74%
Silver: 33.70%
Bronze: 25.91%
I thought they wanted to make bronze the smallest (outside of GM-M, to make noobs happy) and gold the largest. These distributions really do seem weird.
I would expect the lower league players haven't played enough games to make the wanted distribution really kick in. They've made the threshold lower to get out of bronze, the players have to actually step over that threshold and bronzies aren't the most active of folks.
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On April 24 2014 03:25 Amazonic wrote:
I would expect the lower league players haven't played enough games to make the wanted distribution really kick in. They've made the threshold lower to get out of bronze, the players have to actually step over that threshold and bronzies aren't the most active of folks.
Sure, but gold and silver? And that few diamonds and plats?
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EPT
