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On April 25 2014 00:27 RampancyTW wrote:Show nested quote +On April 25 2014 00:21 Ctone23 wrote:On April 24 2014 23:45 Wombat_NI wrote:
I'd imagine for the more active player this isn't an issue, but for those with a lot of RL commitments it really tanks the fun out of laddering. Spot on right there. On April 24 2014 23:53 RampancyTW wrote:
So much of the complaining in this thread is placebo effect, delusion, or outright lies.
If you have been playing frequently enough to avoid MMR decay and got placed into a lower league to start the season, and are playing "worse" opponents, than before-- THIS HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH YOUR LEAGUE. Your MMR determines who you play against, not your league. And your MMR is unaffected by the fact you got demoted to start the season. EDIT: Oops, read that wrong. Disagree completely. How is it that I end the previous season top 8 plat, playing 50% of my games vs Diamond, win the placement match vs a plat terran, and get gold? Also, how can you explain how I continue to play diamond and masters league opponents. I'm sick of people hailing MMR as the all-knowing source, when in reality its broken. Wait, what? So you're still playing the same level of players that you were before? Sounds like your MMR is working exactly as intended. The leagues may be a little wonky, but that won't affect the quality of player you play against.
All I want is a little love from Blizzard for all of the years of service I have given to these games!
Alright i'm done complaining 
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I stopped playing sc2 about 2 years ago now I just play a couple 2v2 every 2 or 3 weeks with a RL buddy.
I was high master back then and my RL buddy plat and we were between dia and master in 2v2.
Now we always get placed in bronze.
Last season we went 16-0 and now we are again at 4-0 stats and even had some people who we hit 2 times in a row on ladder tell me to whisper them when we found a game since I was a masters player and they didn't want to face us a 3rd time in a row...
The MMR decay seems way over the top and takes fun away from both the legit bronze who get stomped and us who can't get a challenge TT...
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On April 25 2014 00:46 Ctone23 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 25 2014 00:36 korona wrote:On April 24 2014 23:53 RampancyTW wrote:
So much of the complaining in this thread is placebo effect, delusion, or outright lies.
If you have been playing frequently enough to avoid MMR decay and got placed into a lower league to start the season, and are playing "worse" opponents, than before-- THIS HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH YOUR LEAGUE. Your MMR determines who you play against, not your league. And your MMR is unaffected by the fact you got demoted to start the season. On April 25 2014 00:21 Ctone23 wrote:
EDIT: Oops, read that wrong. Disagree completely. How is it that I end the previous season top 8 plat, playing 50% of my games vs Diamond, win the placement match vs a plat terran, and get gold? Also, how can you explain how I continue to play diamond and masters league opponents. I'm sick of people hailing MMR as the all-knowing source, when in reality its broken. Actually after HotS launch the league has mattered. The matchmaking is still MMR based, but it seems to prefer opponents from your own league. E.g. if there are two available opponents in close MMR range - one from lower league and one from your league, the matchmaker generally picks the one from your league. When you drop into lower league MMR range during the season, you are still most of the time facing others from your league, whose MMR has also dropped either naturally via losing or via MMR decay. But in the start of the new season you are placed into the lower league based on your MMR and most of your opponents will be from that league. And population in the lower league is now a mix of those whose MMR dropped there during the previous season and those who already were there. Those who dropped into the lower league are likely generally more skilled than the players who already were there. I don't buy that, and that is just too complicated. I think the main issue is that the player pool is dropping and blizz wants to fill all of the leagues and allow for promotions, which is frustrating for someone working over 40 hours a week who can't play a lot. As for your example of MMR, I don't think me playing vs diamond and masters players in the previous system indicates your scenario. I think they simply want to fill the leagues and probably pick players with fewer than X amount of games to be demoted. Who knows..
Blizzard has changed league offsets 3 times during the HotS era. At launch, at start of the third HotS season and few days after the start of last season. I have not verified if there are changes for this season, but a quick look at the MMR tool user profiles shows that there are no larger changes at least (likely no changes at all). So it is not that 'Blizzard wants to fill the leagues'. After the placement match you are placed into some league based on your MMR at that moment (fresh accounts starting from blank MMR are exceptions and are placed conservatively).
And the lower league player would still be matched against higher league players who have close MMR from time to time. To ensure quick matchmaking e.g. if there are no available master opponents who have close MMR for the master player, it would then pick an opponent with close MMR from the other leagues for him.
The league preference of the matchmaker was quite clear during last summer / early fall based on the MMR tool user profiles. People who faced max decay were still mostly matched against opponents from their league until their MMR dropped close to the low border of the lower league. Then their opponent's leagues started to mix up more (the lower your MMR sinks, the lower the amount of people from higher leagues with that low MMR becomes). Based on the matchmaking results the league preference of the matchmaker has not been that clear during the last few seasons, but that is more likely due that general player activity is likely dropping (less available opponents at a given time).
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Used to be masters.
Suddenly, I'm in bird league.
Decay is too real.
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Its very bad. Because for people like me that play not that often your MMR drops quite a bit, but my skill does not drop so much, even though I did not play the last 2 seasons. I'm in Silver now, but I pretty much roflstomp most of my Opponents, so its not even fun. And because its not fun to stomp Newbies I will never play enough to get my MMR back to Plat/Diamond to make Games fun.
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On April 25 2014 01:24 korona wrote:Show nested quote +On April 25 2014 00:46 Ctone23 wrote:On April 25 2014 00:36 korona wrote:On April 24 2014 23:53 RampancyTW wrote:
So much of the complaining in this thread is placebo effect, delusion, or outright lies.
If you have been playing frequently enough to avoid MMR decay and got placed into a lower league to start the season, and are playing "worse" opponents, than before-- THIS HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH YOUR LEAGUE. Your MMR determines who you play against, not your league. And your MMR is unaffected by the fact you got demoted to start the season. On April 25 2014 00:21 Ctone23 wrote:
EDIT: Oops, read that wrong. Disagree completely. How is it that I end the previous season top 8 plat, playing 50% of my games vs Diamond, win the placement match vs a plat terran, and get gold? Also, how can you explain how I continue to play diamond and masters league opponents. I'm sick of people hailing MMR as the all-knowing source, when in reality its broken. Actually after HotS launch the league has mattered. The matchmaking is still MMR based, but it seems to prefer opponents from your own league. E.g. if there are two available opponents in close MMR range - one from lower league and one from your league, the matchmaker generally picks the one from your league. When you drop into lower league MMR range during the season, you are still most of the time facing others from your league, whose MMR has also dropped either naturally via losing or via MMR decay. But in the start of the new season you are placed into the lower league based on your MMR and most of your opponents will be from that league. And population in the lower league is now a mix of those whose MMR dropped there during the previous season and those who already were there. Those who dropped into the lower league are likely generally more skilled than the players who already were there. I don't buy that, and that is just too complicated. I think the main issue is that the player pool is dropping and blizz wants to fill all of the leagues and allow for promotions, which is frustrating for someone working over 40 hours a week who can't play a lot. As for your example of MMR, I don't think me playing vs diamond and masters players in the previous system indicates your scenario. I think they simply want to fill the leagues and probably pick players with fewer than X amount of games to be demoted. Who knows.. Blizzard has changed league offsets 3 times during the HotS era. At launch, at start of the third HotS season and few days after the start of last season. I have not verified if there are changes for this season, but a quick look at the MMR tool user profiles shows that there are no larger changes at least (likely no changes at all). So it is not that 'Blizzard wants to fill the leagues'. After the placement match you are placed into some league based on your MMR at that moment (fresh accounts starting from blank MMR are exceptions and are placed conservatively). And the lower league player would still be matched against higher league players who have close MMR from time to time. To ensure quick matchmaking e.g. if there are no available master opponents who have close MMR for the master player, it would then pick an opponent with close MMR from the other leagues for him. The league preference of the matchmaker was quite clear during last summer / early fall based on the MMR tool user profiles. People who faced max decay were still mostly matched against opponents from their league until their MMR dropped close to the low border of the lower league. Then their opponent's leagues started to mix up more (the lower your MMR sinks, the lower the amount of people from higher leagues with that low MMR becomes). Based on the matchmaking results the league preference of the matchmaker has not been that clear during the last few seasons, but that is more likely due that general player activity is likely dropping (less available opponents at a given time).
Again, I think it's just too complicated. My mmr at that moment wasn't gold, seeing how I play against diamond opponents on a regular basis. I guess you could speculate that those diamond league opponents had similar mmr because of the absence of mid season demotion, but to me that just adds to the confusion. Adding to the fact I got demoted after my placement victory, it all but seems that my placement was pre-determined no matter the outcome.
I'd love to see them re work the ladder system a little bit, something that involves a little more reward, with less confusion.
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On April 25 2014 01:56 Ctone23 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 25 2014 01:24 korona wrote:On April 25 2014 00:46 Ctone23 wrote:On April 25 2014 00:36 korona wrote:On April 24 2014 23:53 RampancyTW wrote:
So much of the complaining in this thread is placebo effect, delusion, or outright lies.
If you have been playing frequently enough to avoid MMR decay and got placed into a lower league to start the season, and are playing "worse" opponents, than before-- THIS HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH YOUR LEAGUE. Your MMR determines who you play against, not your league. And your MMR is unaffected by the fact you got demoted to start the season. On April 25 2014 00:21 Ctone23 wrote:
EDIT: Oops, read that wrong. Disagree completely. How is it that I end the previous season top 8 plat, playing 50% of my games vs Diamond, win the placement match vs a plat terran, and get gold? Also, how can you explain how I continue to play diamond and masters league opponents. I'm sick of people hailing MMR as the all-knowing source, when in reality its broken. Actually after HotS launch the league has mattered. The matchmaking is still MMR based, but it seems to prefer opponents from your own league. E.g. if there are two available opponents in close MMR range - one from lower league and one from your league, the matchmaker generally picks the one from your league. When you drop into lower league MMR range during the season, you are still most of the time facing others from your league, whose MMR has also dropped either naturally via losing or via MMR decay. But in the start of the new season you are placed into the lower league based on your MMR and most of your opponents will be from that league. And population in the lower league is now a mix of those whose MMR dropped there during the previous season and those who already were there. Those who dropped into the lower league are likely generally more skilled than the players who already were there. I don't buy that, and that is just too complicated. I think the main issue is that the player pool is dropping and blizz wants to fill all of the leagues and allow for promotions, which is frustrating for someone working over 40 hours a week who can't play a lot. As for your example of MMR, I don't think me playing vs diamond and masters players in the previous system indicates your scenario. I think they simply want to fill the leagues and probably pick players with fewer than X amount of games to be demoted. Who knows.. Blizzard has changed league offsets 3 times during the HotS era. At launch, at start of the third HotS season and few days after the start of last season. I have not verified if there are changes for this season, but a quick look at the MMR tool user profiles shows that there are no larger changes at least (likely no changes at all). So it is not that 'Blizzard wants to fill the leagues'. After the placement match you are placed into some league based on your MMR at that moment (fresh accounts starting from blank MMR are exceptions and are placed conservatively). And the lower league player would still be matched against higher league players who have close MMR from time to time. To ensure quick matchmaking e.g. if there are no available master opponents who have close MMR for the master player, it would then pick an opponent with close MMR from the other leagues for him. The league preference of the matchmaker was quite clear during last summer / early fall based on the MMR tool user profiles. People who faced max decay were still mostly matched against opponents from their league until their MMR dropped close to the low border of the lower league. Then their opponent's leagues started to mix up more (the lower your MMR sinks, the lower the amount of people from higher leagues with that low MMR becomes). Based on the matchmaking results the league preference of the matchmaker has not been that clear during the last few seasons, but that is more likely due that general player activity is likely dropping (less available opponents at a given time). Again, I think it's just too complicated. My mmr at that moment wasn't gold, seeing how I play against diamond opponents on a regular basis. I guess you could speculate that those diamond league opponents had similar mmr because of the absence of mid season demotion, but to me that just adds to the confusion. Adding to the fact I got demoted after my placement victory, it all but seems that my placement was pre-determined no matter the outcome. I'd love to see them re work the ladder system a little bit, something that involves a little more reward, with less confusion.
No. Your MMR was in gold league range when you were placed there (unless your account had less than ~25 matches after starting from blank MMR). And if you did not have inactivity periods that lasted more than 2 weeks (MMR decay only activates if you have longer than 2 weeks inactivity period in a certain game mode), then also your most recent pre-placement opponents had ~gold range MMR.
Also remember that if and when there is a league preference feature in the matchmaker then in a high gold MMR range as a gold player you may be more likely to face a diamond players than a platinum players. Why? That close to the platinum threshold there are plenty of platinums for the plat player to be matched against. For the diamond player there are not that many diamonds with so low MMR... And that diamond player will often be matched against golds and plats. Also if the league lock is not in effect and you face an opponent from two leagues lower who has not just started from blank MMR, you can be pretty sure your MMR is at least in the lower league range (very rare for the matchmaker to pick opponent with more than a league range lower MMR).
But in general it is often hard to estimate where your MMR is even if you know how the system works. Even if the adjusted points give hints regarding this, they may be considerably off. Easiest way at the moment is to use the MMR tool. Or wait for a promotion (you just passed the lower threshold of that league) / placement match (you are somewhere in that league's range). When you are placed into a new league, you know your MMR is in that league's range (exception fresh accounts that just started from blank MMR.).
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I would be so happy if Blizzard just gave us the option to see what our MMR is.
Somtimes I can't tell if I'm having an off day or just facing better opponents. That one number basically resolves this for me.
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Im facing better players this season, and im ranked the same way, seems that a lot of pro players are picking up smurfs or even region changes, yesterday I faced at least 7-8 Grand Master Players that had diamond ranking just because of MMR decay, oh the frustration....
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On April 25 2014 02:22 korona wrote:Show nested quote +On April 25 2014 01:56 Ctone23 wrote:On April 25 2014 01:24 korona wrote:On April 25 2014 00:46 Ctone23 wrote:On April 25 2014 00:36 korona wrote:On April 24 2014 23:53 RampancyTW wrote:
So much of the complaining in this thread is placebo effect, delusion, or outright lies.
If you have been playing frequently enough to avoid MMR decay and got placed into a lower league to start the season, and are playing "worse" opponents, than before-- THIS HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH YOUR LEAGUE. Your MMR determines who you play against, not your league. And your MMR is unaffected by the fact you got demoted to start the season. On April 25 2014 00:21 Ctone23 wrote:
EDIT: Oops, read that wrong. Disagree completely. How is it that I end the previous season top 8 plat, playing 50% of my games vs Diamond, win the placement match vs a plat terran, and get gold? Also, how can you explain how I continue to play diamond and masters league opponents. I'm sick of people hailing MMR as the all-knowing source, when in reality its broken. Actually after HotS launch the league has mattered. The matchmaking is still MMR based, but it seems to prefer opponents from your own league. E.g. if there are two available opponents in close MMR range - one from lower league and one from your league, the matchmaker generally picks the one from your league. When you drop into lower league MMR range during the season, you are still most of the time facing others from your league, whose MMR has also dropped either naturally via losing or via MMR decay. But in the start of the new season you are placed into the lower league based on your MMR and most of your opponents will be from that league. And population in the lower league is now a mix of those whose MMR dropped there during the previous season and those who already were there. Those who dropped into the lower league are likely generally more skilled than the players who already were there. I don't buy that, and that is just too complicated. I think the main issue is that the player pool is dropping and blizz wants to fill all of the leagues and allow for promotions, which is frustrating for someone working over 40 hours a week who can't play a lot. As for your example of MMR, I don't think me playing vs diamond and masters players in the previous system indicates your scenario. I think they simply want to fill the leagues and probably pick players with fewer than X amount of games to be demoted. Who knows.. Blizzard has changed league offsets 3 times during the HotS era. At launch, at start of the third HotS season and few days after the start of last season. I have not verified if there are changes for this season, but a quick look at the MMR tool user profiles shows that there are no larger changes at least (likely no changes at all). So it is not that 'Blizzard wants to fill the leagues'. After the placement match you are placed into some league based on your MMR at that moment (fresh accounts starting from blank MMR are exceptions and are placed conservatively). And the lower league player would still be matched against higher league players who have close MMR from time to time. To ensure quick matchmaking e.g. if there are no available master opponents who have close MMR for the master player, it would then pick an opponent with close MMR from the other leagues for him. The league preference of the matchmaker was quite clear during last summer / early fall based on the MMR tool user profiles. People who faced max decay were still mostly matched against opponents from their league until their MMR dropped close to the low border of the lower league. Then their opponent's leagues started to mix up more (the lower your MMR sinks, the lower the amount of people from higher leagues with that low MMR becomes). Based on the matchmaking results the league preference of the matchmaker has not been that clear during the last few seasons, but that is more likely due that general player activity is likely dropping (less available opponents at a given time). Again, I think it's just too complicated. My mmr at that moment wasn't gold, seeing how I play against diamond opponents on a regular basis. I guess you could speculate that those diamond league opponents had similar mmr because of the absence of mid season demotion, but to me that just adds to the confusion. Adding to the fact I got demoted after my placement victory, it all but seems that my placement was pre-determined no matter the outcome. I'd love to see them re work the ladder system a little bit, something that involves a little more reward, with less confusion. No. Your MMR was in gold league range when you were placed there (unless your account had less than ~25 matches after starting from blank MMR). And if you did not have inactivity periods that lasted more than 2 weeks (MMR decay only activates if you have longer than 2 weeks inactivity period in a certain game mode), then also your most recent pre-placement opponents had ~gold range MMR. Also remember that if and when there is a league preference feature in the matchmaker then in a high gold MMR range as a gold player you may be more likely to face a diamond players than a platinum players. Why? That close to the platinum threshold there are plenty of platinums for the plat player to be matched against. For the diamond player there are not that many diamonds with so low MMR... And that diamond player will often be matched against golds and plats. Also if the league lock is not in effect and you face an opponent from two leagues lower who has not just started from blank MMR, you can be pretty sure your MMR is at least in the lower league range (very rare for the matchmaker to pick opponent with more than a league range lower MMR). But in general it is often hard to estimate where your MMR is even if you know how the system works. Even if the adjusted points give hints regarding this, they may be considerably off. Easiest way at the moment is to use the MMR tool. Or wait for a promotion (you just passed the lower threshold of that league) / placement match (you are somewhere in that league's range). When you are placed into a new league, you know your MMR is in that league's range (exception fresh accounts that just started from blank MMR.).
As you said, it's hard to estimate where your MMR is, so why should I believe your paragraphs explaining MY situation? For the record I use MMR tools.
Basically what you're saying is that my MMR must have been gold, despite being in top platinum league with MMR tools showing my MMR above the diamond threshold, and playing 50% of my matches vs diamonds, with about a 40% win ratio. Somehow, you think my MMR had to be gold, because MMR is always correct, in your opinion.
Okay, I get your argument, but I disagree. You think MMR is perfect, I don't. End of story. Agree to disagree.
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On April 25 2014 04:30 Ctone23 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 25 2014 02:22 korona wrote:On April 25 2014 01:56 Ctone23 wrote:On April 25 2014 01:24 korona wrote:On April 25 2014 00:46 Ctone23 wrote:On April 25 2014 00:36 korona wrote:On April 24 2014 23:53 RampancyTW wrote:
So much of the complaining in this thread is placebo effect, delusion, or outright lies.
If you have been playing frequently enough to avoid MMR decay and got placed into a lower league to start the season, and are playing "worse" opponents, than before-- THIS HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH YOUR LEAGUE. Your MMR determines who you play against, not your league. And your MMR is unaffected by the fact you got demoted to start the season. On April 25 2014 00:21 Ctone23 wrote:
EDIT: Oops, read that wrong. Disagree completely. How is it that I end the previous season top 8 plat, playing 50% of my games vs Diamond, win the placement match vs a plat terran, and get gold? Also, how can you explain how I continue to play diamond and masters league opponents. I'm sick of people hailing MMR as the all-knowing source, when in reality its broken. Actually after HotS launch the league has mattered. The matchmaking is still MMR based, but it seems to prefer opponents from your own league. E.g. if there are two available opponents in close MMR range - one from lower league and one from your league, the matchmaker generally picks the one from your league. When you drop into lower league MMR range during the season, you are still most of the time facing others from your league, whose MMR has also dropped either naturally via losing or via MMR decay. But in the start of the new season you are placed into the lower league based on your MMR and most of your opponents will be from that league. And population in the lower league is now a mix of those whose MMR dropped there during the previous season and those who already were there. Those who dropped into the lower league are likely generally more skilled than the players who already were there. I don't buy that, and that is just too complicated. I think the main issue is that the player pool is dropping and blizz wants to fill all of the leagues and allow for promotions, which is frustrating for someone working over 40 hours a week who can't play a lot. As for your example of MMR, I don't think me playing vs diamond and masters players in the previous system indicates your scenario. I think they simply want to fill the leagues and probably pick players with fewer than X amount of games to be demoted. Who knows.. Blizzard has changed league offsets 3 times during the HotS era. At launch, at start of the third HotS season and few days after the start of last season. I have not verified if there are changes for this season, but a quick look at the MMR tool user profiles shows that there are no larger changes at least (likely no changes at all). So it is not that 'Blizzard wants to fill the leagues'. After the placement match you are placed into some league based on your MMR at that moment (fresh accounts starting from blank MMR are exceptions and are placed conservatively). And the lower league player would still be matched against higher league players who have close MMR from time to time. To ensure quick matchmaking e.g. if there are no available master opponents who have close MMR for the master player, it would then pick an opponent with close MMR from the other leagues for him. The league preference of the matchmaker was quite clear during last summer / early fall based on the MMR tool user profiles. People who faced max decay were still mostly matched against opponents from their league until their MMR dropped close to the low border of the lower league. Then their opponent's leagues started to mix up more (the lower your MMR sinks, the lower the amount of people from higher leagues with that low MMR becomes). Based on the matchmaking results the league preference of the matchmaker has not been that clear during the last few seasons, but that is more likely due that general player activity is likely dropping (less available opponents at a given time). Again, I think it's just too complicated. My mmr at that moment wasn't gold, seeing how I play against diamond opponents on a regular basis. I guess you could speculate that those diamond league opponents had similar mmr because of the absence of mid season demotion, but to me that just adds to the confusion. Adding to the fact I got demoted after my placement victory, it all but seems that my placement was pre-determined no matter the outcome. I'd love to see them re work the ladder system a little bit, something that involves a little more reward, with less confusion. No. Your MMR was in gold league range when you were placed there (unless your account had less than ~25 matches after starting from blank MMR). And if you did not have inactivity periods that lasted more than 2 weeks (MMR decay only activates if you have longer than 2 weeks inactivity period in a certain game mode), then also your most recent pre-placement opponents had ~gold range MMR. Also remember that if and when there is a league preference feature in the matchmaker then in a high gold MMR range as a gold player you may be more likely to face a diamond players than a platinum players. Why? That close to the platinum threshold there are plenty of platinums for the plat player to be matched against. For the diamond player there are not that many diamonds with so low MMR... And that diamond player will often be matched against golds and plats. Also if the league lock is not in effect and you face an opponent from two leagues lower who has not just started from blank MMR, you can be pretty sure your MMR is at least in the lower league range (very rare for the matchmaker to pick opponent with more than a league range lower MMR). But in general it is often hard to estimate where your MMR is even if you know how the system works. Even if the adjusted points give hints regarding this, they may be considerably off. Easiest way at the moment is to use the MMR tool. Or wait for a promotion (you just passed the lower threshold of that league) / placement match (you are somewhere in that league's range). When you are placed into a new league, you know your MMR is in that league's range (exception fresh accounts that just started from blank MMR.). As you said, it's hard to estimate where your MMR is, so why should I believe your paragraphs explaining MY situation? For the record I use MMR tools. Basically what you're saying is that my MMR must have been gold, despite being in top platinum league with MMR tools showing my MMR above the diamond threshold, and playing 50% of my matches vs diamonds, with about a 40% win ratio. Somehow, you think my MMR had to be gold, because MMR is always correct, in your opinion. Okay, I get your argument, but I disagree. You think MMR is perfect, I don't. End of story. Agree to disagree. If we all saw the MMR had calculated both for you and for your opponent, I bet an easy explanation would present itself. "Being in top platinum league with MMR tools" could have been guessing at your MMR for the last 20 games (CAP). You say you're vs diamonds, but what did MMR tools calculate for them? 40% win ratio, but against who?
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Northern Ireland26703 Posts
On April 25 2014 01:28 Kiernan wrote:
Its very bad. Because for people like me that play not that often your MMR drops quite a bit, but my skill does not drop so much, even though I did not play the last 2 seasons. I'm in Silver now, but I pretty much roflstomp most of my Opponents, so its not even fun. And because its not fun to stomp Newbies I will never play enough to get my MMR back to Plat/Diamond to make Games fun.
Rather than demotion, it is this that frustrates me.
Inb4 someone comes into the thread without reading posts and sticks another 'league shouldn't matter as long as you have fun'
I think last season I rocked 80% win rate but spread over periods of inactivity it was basically a cumulative win rate based on three/four separate sessions of noob bashing. As far as I can tell I pushed my MMR up and would start to play harder opponents at the end of one of these sessions but by the time I hit the next one my MMR was way out of whack
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I can't say this has happened to me - I know where I rate among the player base and I'm about there. (Top-ish Silver to mid Gold.) What I'm wondering is if the "occasional match way outside your range" part of the ladder is still in effect. I ask because I was (at the time) mid-silver and was matched against a Masters player. Legit Masters, as well; stomped the hell out of me and their history indicated they weren't MMR decayed to my level.
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just more mess ups by blizzard, I swear I cringe everytime they announce anything they're going to do to the game.
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On April 25 2014 04:30 Ctone23 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 25 2014 02:22 korona wrote:On April 25 2014 01:56 Ctone23 wrote:On April 25 2014 01:24 korona wrote:On April 25 2014 00:46 Ctone23 wrote:On April 25 2014 00:36 korona wrote:On April 24 2014 23:53 RampancyTW wrote:
So much of the complaining in this thread is placebo effect, delusion, or outright lies.
If you have been playing frequently enough to avoid MMR decay and got placed into a lower league to start the season, and are playing "worse" opponents, than before-- THIS HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH YOUR LEAGUE. Your MMR determines who you play against, not your league. And your MMR is unaffected by the fact you got demoted to start the season. On April 25 2014 00:21 Ctone23 wrote:
EDIT: Oops, read that wrong. Disagree completely. How is it that I end the previous season top 8 plat, playing 50% of my games vs Diamond, win the placement match vs a plat terran, and get gold? Also, how can you explain how I continue to play diamond and masters league opponents. I'm sick of people hailing MMR as the all-knowing source, when in reality its broken. Actually after HotS launch the league has mattered. The matchmaking is still MMR based, but it seems to prefer opponents from your own league. E.g. if there are two available opponents in close MMR range - one from lower league and one from your league, the matchmaker generally picks the one from your league. When you drop into lower league MMR range during the season, you are still most of the time facing others from your league, whose MMR has also dropped either naturally via losing or via MMR decay. But in the start of the new season you are placed into the lower league based on your MMR and most of your opponents will be from that league. And population in the lower league is now a mix of those whose MMR dropped there during the previous season and those who already were there. Those who dropped into the lower league are likely generally more skilled than the players who already were there. I don't buy that, and that is just too complicated. I think the main issue is that the player pool is dropping and blizz wants to fill all of the leagues and allow for promotions, which is frustrating for someone working over 40 hours a week who can't play a lot. As for your example of MMR, I don't think me playing vs diamond and masters players in the previous system indicates your scenario. I think they simply want to fill the leagues and probably pick players with fewer than X amount of games to be demoted. Who knows.. Blizzard has changed league offsets 3 times during the HotS era. At launch, at start of the third HotS season and few days after the start of last season. I have not verified if there are changes for this season, but a quick look at the MMR tool user profiles shows that there are no larger changes at least (likely no changes at all). So it is not that 'Blizzard wants to fill the leagues'. After the placement match you are placed into some league based on your MMR at that moment (fresh accounts starting from blank MMR are exceptions and are placed conservatively). And the lower league player would still be matched against higher league players who have close MMR from time to time. To ensure quick matchmaking e.g. if there are no available master opponents who have close MMR for the master player, it would then pick an opponent with close MMR from the other leagues for him. The league preference of the matchmaker was quite clear during last summer / early fall based on the MMR tool user profiles. People who faced max decay were still mostly matched against opponents from their league until their MMR dropped close to the low border of the lower league. Then their opponent's leagues started to mix up more (the lower your MMR sinks, the lower the amount of people from higher leagues with that low MMR becomes). Based on the matchmaking results the league preference of the matchmaker has not been that clear during the last few seasons, but that is more likely due that general player activity is likely dropping (less available opponents at a given time). Again, I think it's just too complicated. My mmr at that moment wasn't gold, seeing how I play against diamond opponents on a regular basis. I guess you could speculate that those diamond league opponents had similar mmr because of the absence of mid season demotion, but to me that just adds to the confusion. Adding to the fact I got demoted after my placement victory, it all but seems that my placement was pre-determined no matter the outcome. I'd love to see them re work the ladder system a little bit, something that involves a little more reward, with less confusion. No. Your MMR was in gold league range when you were placed there (unless your account had less than ~25 matches after starting from blank MMR). And if you did not have inactivity periods that lasted more than 2 weeks (MMR decay only activates if you have longer than 2 weeks inactivity period in a certain game mode), then also your most recent pre-placement opponents had ~gold range MMR. Also remember that if and when there is a league preference feature in the matchmaker then in a high gold MMR range as a gold player you may be more likely to face a diamond players than a platinum players. Why? That close to the platinum threshold there are plenty of platinums for the plat player to be matched against. For the diamond player there are not that many diamonds with so low MMR... And that diamond player will often be matched against golds and plats. Also if the league lock is not in effect and you face an opponent from two leagues lower who has not just started from blank MMR, you can be pretty sure your MMR is at least in the lower league range (very rare for the matchmaker to pick opponent with more than a league range lower MMR). But in general it is often hard to estimate where your MMR is even if you know how the system works. Even if the adjusted points give hints regarding this, they may be considerably off. Easiest way at the moment is to use the MMR tool. Or wait for a promotion (you just passed the lower threshold of that league) / placement match (you are somewhere in that league's range). When you are placed into a new league, you know your MMR is in that league's range (exception fresh accounts that just started from blank MMR.). As you said, it's hard to estimate where your MMR is, so why should I believe your paragraphs explaining MY situation? For the record I use MMR tools. Basically what you're saying is that my MMR must have been gold, despite being in top platinum league with MMR tools showing my MMR above the diamond threshold, and playing 50% of my matches vs diamonds, with about a 40% win ratio. Somehow, you think my MMR had to be gold, because MMR is always correct, in your opinion. Okay, I get your argument, but I disagree. You think MMR is perfect, I don't. End of story. Agree to disagree.
If I knew your account name I could combine your uploaded last season & this season records and check if there are problems. Values calculated by the MMR tool can sometimes be incorrect for various reasons (sometimes data error due bnet web profiles, sometimes slight cap detection inaccuracy, sometimes user related problem such as old DB file or missing games). These often can be recognized just by looking at the graph as they cause erratic effects.
But there has been no surprises regarding the placements in the past unless they have made changes for this season. The placement league has reflected the MMR at that moment (except fresh accounts that started from blank MMR and were placed lower).
And no, MMR is not a perfect rating. It is not a skill rating anymore for many as Blizzard started artificially tampering it by introducing too steep MMR decay.
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Edit 2014-04-25: After some searching I think I found Ctone23's account. He had used MMR tool periodically in Jan / early Feb (there were longer gaps in between when he had not recorded games). He originally had had mid to high gold MMR with lots of good readings. He had then stopped using MMR tool for a while and got promoted to platinum. He recorded few games while in platinum, but none were 'good'. Also his win-loss difference was about the same in the last recorded plat matches as it was when he was in high gold range. In general MMR rises only if you win more than you lose. For individual matches it can rise or drop more, but if you play 50-50 then your MMR generally stays about the same. After his last recorded matches in early Feb he had doubled the amount of matches played in the later stages of last season. But his win-loss difference for that period was slightly negative. --> His MMR had likely stayed about the same or dropped slightly (presuming he had not suffered MMR decay).
I also checked some of his opponents from the end of last season via SC2 client. Most of his most recent last season opponents had been placed in plat, but there were few gold placements too. He had also faced at least one unranked player who was master in ranked mode.
Even if there was less data than I hoped (I hoped for a full record of his all games as he mentioned he was an MMR tool user), it seems there was no surprises regarding Ctone23's placement to gold as it seems his MMR was likely in high gold range when this season started.
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On April 27 2014 05:20 SatedSC2 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 25 2014 03:40 SatedSC2 wrote:
Is there an approximate amount of games you need to play before the game decides, "Oh, he's winning 5 games for every 1 he loses, perhaps I should put him against better players..?"
My NA account decayed into low Diamond or something like that, and I'm currently 14-3 trying to get it back into Masters. I don't think it should be in Masters yet since I am still playing Diamond players (albeit high Diamond players now), but it's kinda annoying that the MMR system will decay you so hard and force you to put so much time in to get the decay back. I'd rather not have decay; if people don't play and want to come back then Unranked can help them get in shape =/
EDIT:
20-3 Now. Fuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu- So I now have a 75% win-rate with ~50 games played (all those games against Diamond players, with a few Masters thrown in) and it still insists that I am "evenly matched" with mid-league Diamond players who have an equal win/loss ratio. Seriously pissing me off right now =/ Ironically, every time I do get against a Masters player, I seem to get cheesed. That much just be karma punishing me for all the cheesy buildings that I use xD
Size of the MMR range of diamond is quite big after the changes they made early last season. Estimate for it was 450 in MMR tool scale (from bottom border of diam to bottom border of master). If each match changes your MMR 16 points per average, it would require ~29 straight wins to pass the whole diamond league range. But in practice when you approach the high-end of diamond range, you will start gaining less / losing more. In practice it will likely take little less than 40 straight wins to pass whole diamond range.
Now if you have played ~50 games with 75% win-rate you will have something like 38w-12l. From that we get +26 win-loss difference. If you started from the bottom border of diamond then you will still potentially need more than 10 wins more than losses from your future matches. Of course if you were originally placed in platinum you will need more. If you were originally placed in diamond you may have been higher than the bottom and then need less.
Please note that these figures are very rough, but in general should give quite good idea what to expect.
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On April 27 2014 08:18 SatedSC2 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 27 2014 06:04 korona wrote:On April 27 2014 05:20 SatedSC2 wrote:On April 25 2014 03:40 SatedSC2 wrote:
Is there an approximate amount of games you need to play before the game decides, "Oh, he's winning 5 games for every 1 he loses, perhaps I should put him against better players..?"
My NA account decayed into low Diamond or something like that, and I'm currently 14-3 trying to get it back into Masters. I don't think it should be in Masters yet since I am still playing Diamond players (albeit high Diamond players now), but it's kinda annoying that the MMR system will decay you so hard and force you to put so much time in to get the decay back. I'd rather not have decay; if people don't play and want to come back then Unranked can help them get in shape =/
EDIT:
20-3 Now. Fuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu- So I now have a 75% win-rate with ~50 games played (all those games against Diamond players, with a few Masters thrown in) and it still insists that I am "evenly matched" with mid-league Diamond players who have an equal win/loss ratio. Seriously pissing me off right now =/ Ironically, every time I do get against a Masters player, I seem to get cheesed. That much just be karma punishing me for all the cheesy buildings that I use xD Size of the MMR range of diamond is quite big after the changes they made early last season. Estimate for it was 450 in MMR tool scale (from bottom border of diam to bottom border of master). If each match changes your MMR 16 points per average, it would require ~29 straight wins to pass the whole diamond league range. But in practice when you approach the high-end of diamond range, you will start gaining less / losing more. In practice it will likely take little less than 40 straight wins to pass whole diamond range. Now if you have played ~50 games with 75% win-rate you will have something like 38w-12l. From that we get +26 win-loss difference. If you started from the bottom border of diamond then you will still potentially need more than 10 wins more than losses from your future matches. Of course if you were originally placed in platinum you will need more. If you were originally placed in diamond you may have been higher than the bottom and then need less. Please note that these figures are very rough, but in general should give quite good idea what to expect. That's ridiculous. MMR decay needs to be removed and demotion during the season needs to be reinstated. Blizzard had a perfectly fine ladder system and they've ballsed it up. Undeniably so. I just played (and beat) someone who is 59-4 and still in Diamond, which in a sense makes me feel better because that's even worse than my experience, but in a sense pisses me off even more because that's fucking ridiculous.
Doubly so now that unranked exists. If you are just coming back and need to shake off the rust, you can just play that. It's pretty stupid.
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EPT
