EPTNaniwa released from Alliance - Page 16
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Irrational_Animal
Germany1059 Posts
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oDieN[Siege]
United States2905 Posts
On March 21 2014 16:11 -HuShang- wrote: Maybe, maybe not, but it sure is a convenient excuse to kick him off if he isn't playing starcraft 2 anymore. Food for thought ;D Power overwhelming. Anyway, on a more serious note. I understand it was a "sponsor" thing, and if there was a contract, but I guess in the end, you can't really force someone to do something they don't want. Best wishes, Naniwa. | ||
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xAdra
Singapore1858 Posts
Good luck, but also good riddance. If you guys have a fetish for controversial/outright offensive people like this, by all means. | ||
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sitromit
7051 Posts
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Squat
Sweden7978 Posts
On March 21 2014 23:10 Morphage wrote: Well "skill" is also quite vague, how do you determine who is the most skilled player? You can look on Aligulac ratings and see that Stephano had the better winrates and peak ratings out of the three. Stephano actually won tournaments, a lot of them, beating Koreans, he really solidified the ling/infestor/ultra style when pretty much all zergs were playing muta/ling, he was crushing Protoss players with his roach maxout timing, he was very consistent during his career, etc... I agree with you that "best" is a very vague term, but I think that in this situation it's pretty clear that Stephano was the "best" foreigner in SC2. And seriously? Putting Huk, Jinro and Idra in the same "tier" as Stephano, Naniwa and Scarlett is just wrong lol. It's not about how much you win, it's about who you win against. Stephano is the most successful foreigner by far, but I believe the level of opponents he faced cannot be favourably compared to what Scarlett and Nani faced in terms of raw ability. As for Jinro and HuK, they basically played and won when the game was in its infancy. No disrespect to them or their accomplishments, they are impressive certainly, but the level of play in the early WoL GSLs and MLGs is another world compared to today. In the end, accomplishments are the only thing we can actually measure, but I also think we can get a fairly good idea about relative skill levels as well. Flash and Nada are the most successful players ever, with 6 starleague titles each. On paper, they are even, but I think most people would recognise that Flash played in an environment where the level of competition was far more fierce. | ||
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pms
Poland611 Posts
On March 22 2014 00:07 Spect8rCraft wrote: I concur that none of the technicalities can be criticized. Naniwa was free to forfeit, the legalese is still sketchy since we're only hearing Naniwa's side, and if he was pressured into playing, then he is not entirely at fault. Yes, the community does at times (probably every time; I wasn't here at Naniwa's professional birth) dog Naniwa, for right or wrong. Yet, the reversal of vice is also true: Naniwa's poor demeanor meant that he incited, if not invited, such hatemongering. I've never viewed Naniwa highly or lowly; he was a well established Protoss player, who at times could rival even Korean pros in their prime. He has provided as many crisp and enjoyable games as he had scrappy and sloppy games; he would as often mess up his wall as often as he would utterly crush his opponents in a wall of gateway units. He's had his slumps and he's had his strides, and his record shows an illustrious history of high-end finishes in numerous well-renowned tournaments. Hell, I didn't even think Naniwa was very BM. I'd thought it was some run-of-the-mill banter, much like how anyone else not named Idra would often rib at their opponents. Heck, I thought Ryung's "IMBA" moment was probably a bigger splash, though then again I suppose I don't follow Naniwa with a hawk's eye. We're not omniscient creatures, right? But after IEM, it'd be folly not to criticize Naniwa for what he did. Not for the technicalities of the situation, which, as I have stated above, were perfectly legit. But it does call his professionalism into question. Using the chat in-game is a general taboo (and I mean very general, as some things such as congratulations often get a pass), not to mention, if I'm not mistaken, against some WCS protocol. Naniwa's not the first person to experience soundproofing issues; games prior have had similar issues, including, apparently, one with Naniwa himself being a participant. Yet surely there were other ways of expressing that sentiment than in chat; most players have made it known post-game, and he himself could have (and did) make it known to the officials immediately after the match. Furthermore, he has followed up, as well as primed, the incident with numerous comments, including the one posted here, condemning the community or some such. Yes, TeamLiquid is not immune to Internet pitchforking, shocking, isn't it? And yet, very rarely does the community have so many barbs for one individual. There's no spearing of Innovation, of Maru, of Life, of Soulkey, of Mvp, of Taeja, of Creator, of Rain, of Stephano, of Jaedong, of Zest, of Thorzain, of Scarlett, of Grubby... Yes, they get a lashing every now and again, maybe for playing an agonizing game (Stephano's specialty and notoriety), for some controversial matter (Scarlett notably), for being (in)consistent (sOs comes to mind). And yet, none of them have gained as much notoriety as Naniwa. Some people like Maru's aggressive playstyle, others don't, so what? Sometimes MC jabs another player before the match, shots fired, I guess? DeMuslim forfeited Shoutcraft America? He better have a good explanation for this. Only Idra has incited about as much dislike, and even he managed to hang back as a commentator for a while, and his exit was nowhere as explosive as Naniwa's. So it does beg the question: why? And Naniwa is the answer. His demeanor is the most glaring aspect that has made this series of events transpire. And how he handled IEM was a message to the masses, a message to Alliance, a message to IEM. A world of alternatives, and that was how he decided to leave the game; a world of fire might be overkill, but criticism he is not free of. So that he leaves the game? Absolutely fine. Is the community a jerk sometimes? More often than not. Will time heal all wounds? A question only time can answer. But he did burn bridges with his exit, undeniably. Say what you will about his gaming skills and history, but if he returns, the burden of coming back is his to bear and his only. I'm not sure if I'm agreeing or disagreeing with you here, but I simply implore, that you needn't leave merely because of a sour note in the community. Every game and every show and every aspect of society will have that brown note, but it's merely a tiny smudge in the grand scheme. I suppose the TL;DR is: It's not the technicalities that Naniwa should be criticized for, it's his PR management of the situation. Yes, the community is not free of hatemongering, it spikes here and there and more often than not, but why is Naniwa the select few of such extreme tactics? See it from both sides; don't be a hater, but don't be a kiss-ass, either. Agreed: don't be a hater, but don't be a kiss-ass, either. The problem is that most people in this community blame only Naniwa for his bad reputation and they see everything through this biased lens. Naniwa is not a saint, we all know it, but this community does not consist of saints neither, and we should realize it. | ||
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DiuLaSing
Hong Kong225 Posts
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NovaMB
Germany9534 Posts
The interview was taken after his forfeit at IEM | ||
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robson1
3632 Posts
On March 21 2014 22:15 pms wrote: Whenever I see something like that I can't help but think that the reason to post such a sentence is to increase the self-esteem of the person who is posting. Bravo. You know what? Masses are not successful. Shitting over people is not successful. Blaming others is not going to lead you anywhere. If anything, learn yourself the proper attitude to life, otherwise the person who is going to need luck in life will be you. lol. I'm not shitting on anyone. Naniwa just proved to me, that he's is completely unwilling to see any other side than his own side (which happend multiple times in the past) and I was just pointing out that his sort of attitude towards his employer etc. will not work out for him anywhere. Obviously he does not owe me anything, and he does not have to prove anything to me specifically, but I'm still free to form my opinion on his actions. And his actions show a pitiful lack of comprehension of the way things work when you're paid to something on a professional level. | ||
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Gothic
Sweden122 Posts
On March 22 2014 00:08 -Celestial- wrote:So the simplest assumption is that they warned him that he'd be punished (likely financially) if he didn't go. And consequently he went (in hope of still getting paid? I don't know, speculating, there has to be SOME reason for him to have gone given that he clearly didn't want to be there). Since we're speculating: what if the consequences weren't just "not getting paid" but also that he had to pay a substantial fine to the team? What if it said was basically: if you break this contract, you bind yourself to pay a fine of $100000. You still think he was "free to set his foot down"? Sometimes strings and ropes are invisible. And just as it was within the team's legal rights to push the contract to its limits, it was Nani's right to legally forfeit once he was on site. I doubt he had planned to forfeit, but the soundproof thing was the last drop that pushed him over the edge to do it anyway. In this theoretical scenario, he answered his team with the same coin. He pushed his legal rights. I'm not saying the above is true, but since people here tend to speculate and then turn their own theories and assumptions into truth, I thought I would show an alternative theory.  | ||
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Noobity
United States871 Posts
On March 21 2014 22:37 pms wrote: Loosing in a quiet game, just for the sake of "dying slow", so that the community can adapt to it and get the arguments to hate on his skills? I actually think he did the right thing. Naniwa may be arrogant, but he has honor. This is an interesting point of view. My question to you would be "what's more honorable?" in this case. Lets take a look at it honestly here. There was nothing that Alliance could do to force him to play if he didn't want to. He was already not playing the game. The only thing they could do would be to fire him when he had already told them that he was looking to quit, or had quit or whatever. So unless Alliance has some sort of blackmail or... I don't know, back pay that they have a clause they don't have to pay in certain cases, then I can't see anything at all that would be something Naniwa would fear. From the information I have (which is honestly not much) it would be akin to my company threatening to no longer pay me in the future if I decided I wanted to come to work and leave without finishing the job. Now assuming the reason Naniwa didn't want to continue the event was the complaint over the lack of efficient soundproofing, I would say that if he was not contractually obligated to represent his sponsors, then absolutely that could be an honorable thing to do. He would be taking a stand against something that he thought was an injustice and hey, whatever I could get behind that. The definition of honor, from merriam webster dictionary says: : respect that is given to someone who is admired : good reputation : good quality or character as judged by other people : high moral standards of behavior The first doesn't really apply in this case, he's not honoring anyone. Does he have a good reputation from this action? Is he judged positively by others? I would say no. If this were one of the older civilizations where honor was a life or death thing that you upheld, based on the opinion of the vocal masses he'd have plunged a knife into his gut at this point. This last point I'd agree with to an extent. He has high moral standards in that the conditions he was provided were not adequate and he wanted them adjusted. I can dig that, but I think that I can only do so taking this one action in a vacuum. He has clearly not shown to have these high standards in the past, and to have honor is to have a code that you uphold in all cases. You can't be an honorable person when it fits you and say that you have honor. However, we also know that he was there representing his team (when it was ultimately his choice to go). He could have (honorably) chosen to not go and take whatever consequences the team had threatened him with. This would have not only shown a respect for his team, but also for the fans of the sport and the venue itself. When you are doing something that pays your salary, you don't have to like it but in my point of view you should have a respect for it, and to not show this respect is not honorable. His actions have negatively impacted the brand he was there representing. I don't think this will actually affect sales of Monster or Razer or any of that, but it needlessly robbed the team of potential exposure. It's all subjective, I'd never say that my personal honor code... well exists, but I do try and stick to a set of values that I find to be reasonable. However from my personal beliefs I would say Naniwa has very little honor. Of course we're all three from very different societies with very different histories and very different upbringings, so I can understand the difference of opinion. | ||
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FFW_Rude
France10201 Posts
On March 21 2014 23:54 sd_andeh wrote: @Thooorin 9m I'll release a 1 hour 'Reflections' interview with @NaNiwaSC2 tonight at 22 CET. So that we could stop speculating. Thank you. | ||
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Uracil
Germany422 Posts
Cannot believe some people really think ESL would force Naniwa to play. | ||
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braller
96 Posts
On March 22 2014 00:29 Squat wrote: It's not about how much you win, it's about who you win against. Stephano is the most successful foreigner by far, but I believe the level of opponents he faced cannot be favourably compared to what Scarlett and Nani faced in terms of raw ability. As for Jinro and HuK, they basically played and won when the game was in its infancy. No disrespect to them or their accomplishments, they are impressive certainly, but the level of play in the early WoL GSLs and MLGs is another world compared to today. In the end, accomplishments are the only thing we can actually measure, but I also think we can get a fairly good idea about relative skill levels as well. Flash and Nada are the most successful players ever, with 6 starleague titles each. On paper, they are even, but I think most people would recognise that Flash played in an environment where the level of competition was far more fierce. The reason Stephano is the best foreigner and it's not even close is, to put it in somewhat silly fashion, that he's the only foreigner who truly dominated his kin. Naniwa has always had the ability to beat top Koreans, but it's also never been surprising to see him get knocked out by players without any particularly impressive achievements. People tend to respect the ability to beat top competition more than anything else and in that category I'd say Stephano only has a slight edge, but not losing to lesser players is just as important an element of dominance. | ||
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Gothic
Sweden122 Posts
On March 22 2014 00:44 Uracil wrote: https://twitter.com/mbCARMAC/status/447008682946363393 Cannot believe some people really think ESL would force Naniwa to play. Naniwa didn't say that they did, either. He said it's what his team told him. (just clarifying) | ||
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FuRRie
Belgium815 Posts
allt he other stuff, meh, typical yes - no bs. | ||
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YoloSwaggins
Austria236 Posts
On March 21 2014 23:41 Sakray wrote: This is absolutely bullshit, if forfeiting is a huge affront, then why do they give the right to do so to the players ? Jeez how can people be so delusional? I guess most of these comments come from 14 year olds who have never worked for a second in their lives. if you don't do your job, you're fired. if you get money to do something, and you don't do it, you get fired. you try to behave like naniwa does in the real world and see where it takes you. he probably got a better salary than highly educated american people, he signed a contract that obligated him to things and to represent the company well. he didn't do it, he broke the contract, he doesn't get the opportunity to earn thousands of dollars anymore. i wouldn't even call it a punishment, it's just a boon that the didn't deserve in the first place and got taken away after he confirmed this for the 6th time. and btw everyone seems to forget how shadily naniwa managed that time he beat nestea 2-1 in mlg. he instantly quit the match after his cheese wouldn't work and forced a rematch by lying about spawn positions. conclusion: what he says can't be taken seriously at all. the soundproofing issue is just one of his lies. | ||
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buckKeefe
United States63 Posts
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Dracolich70
Denmark3820 Posts
On March 22 2014 00:26 sitromit wrote: I also hope that is the reason why they let him go, not due to their own poor judgment to send him there.He says he no longer wants to play the game he was being paid to play, so why should they keep him, regardless of what happened at IEM? | ||
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yido
United States350 Posts
On March 22 2014 00:34 robson1 wrote: lol. I'm not shitting on anyone. Naniwa just proved to me, that he's is completely unwilling to see any other side than his own side (which happend multiple times in the past) and I was just pointing out that his sort of attitude towards his employer etc. will not work out for him anywhere. Obviously he does not owe me anything, and he does not have to prove anything to me specifically, but I'm still free to form my opinion on his actions. And his actions show a pitiful lack of comprehension of the way things work when you're paid to something on a professional level. Most of the community feel the same way. The vocal minority is keeping the thread going. pms has a post on majority of the pages on this thread and others dealing with Naniwa's forfeit, I wouldn't take a second look at it. Bottom line is, Naniwa's behavior wouldn't be praised in any professional setting. If he was a doctor, his license to practice would be taken away. If he was an accountant, he would've been canned and most likely never get an accounting job again. I guess McDonalds is always an option... | ||
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