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heartless decision on his part. SC2 will be better without him. Even if he is skilled, no game benefits from such a sour attitude. I pity the foul.
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On March 22 2014 00:40 Gothic wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2014 00:08 -Celestial- wrote:So the simplest assumption is that they warned him that he'd be punished (likely financially) if he didn't go. And consequently he went (in hope of still getting paid? I don't know, speculating, there has to be SOME reason for him to have gone given that he clearly didn't want to be there).
Since we're speculating: what if the consequences weren't just "not getting paid" but also that he had to pay a substantial fine to the team? What if it said was basically: if you break this contract, you bind yourself to pay a fine of $100000. You still think he was "free to set his foot down"? Sometimes strings and ropes are invisible. And just as it was within the team's legal rights to push the contract to its limits, it was Nani's right to legally forfeit once he was on site. I doubt he had planned to forfeit, but the soundproof thing was the last drop that pushed him over the edge to do it anyway. In this theoretical scenario, he answered his team with the same coin. He pushed his legal rights. I'm not saying the above is true, but since people here tend to speculate and then turn their own theories and assumptions into truth, I thought I would show an alternative theory. 
Except he probably did go in intending to forfeit, the soundproofing wasn't an issue for anyone else and other players were reportedly laughing at him. I used to give Nani the benefit of the doubt when he threw his toys out of the pram, then when it kept happening..... I finally realised Nani is just a petulant child and needs to grow up.
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On March 22 2014 00:46 braller wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2014 00:29 Squat wrote:On March 21 2014 23:10 Morphage wrote:On March 21 2014 22:22 Squat wrote:On March 21 2014 21:59 Lonyo wrote:On March 21 2014 21:35 jarod wrote:On March 21 2014 21:32 SC2Toastie wrote:On March 21 2014 21:30 jarod wrote:
i guess the only team where naniwa can stay cool and not do stuff like this and not lose interest would be a korean team, staying in a korean team house.
I`m somehow sad that he left sc2(e-sport), but i have a feeling that he will be back, a bit sorry that the departure happened like this, he really looked like an ass when left IEM.
Some say that nani is the best foreigner.. i rank him top 5, hard to say who is the best, but i`d say something like Jinro, Stephano, Huk, Nani, Idra Misses Scarlett plz? Scarllet is awesome and can still be the best, but until now i cannot put her before Jinro or Stephano or Huk or even Idra, these 4 when they were at their best won tournaments or go deep in GSL, what did Scarllet win? (and naniwa beat last year scarllet, and overall showed better results). But hey! this is just my opinion. Scarlett and Jinro played at very different times. No disrespect to Jinro, but while he was at the top at the start, he would be nowhere these days. It's like the early days of BW, but compressed. The foreigners who did well succeeded for a while, but really that's because the game wasn't developed at the time. Scarlett is much more impressive as a player because the game is harder than it was. She may not have the same successes, but that's because the competition is harder in her "era". "Best" is a very vague and not very useful term. It just encompasses too much. We would be better off differentiating between most skilled and most accomplished. Stephano is the most accomplished, Nani and Scarlett were probably the ones with the highest skill level. Well "skill" is also quite vague, how do you determine who is the most skilled player? You can look on Aligulac ratings and see that Stephano had the better winrates and peak ratings out of the three. Stephano actually won tournaments, a lot of them, beating Koreans, he really solidified the ling/infestor/ultra style when pretty much all zergs were playing muta/ling, he was crushing Protoss players with his roach maxout timing, he was very consistent during his career, etc... I agree with you that "best" is a very vague term, but I think that in this situation it's pretty clear that Stephano was the "best" foreigner in SC2. And seriously? Putting Huk, Jinro and Idra in the same "tier" as Stephano, Naniwa and Scarlett is just wrong lol. It's not about how much you win, it's about who you win against. Stephano is the most successful foreigner by far, but I believe the level of opponents he faced cannot be favourably compared to what Scarlett and Nani faced in terms of raw ability. As for Jinro and HuK, they basically played and won when the game was in its infancy. No disrespect to them or their accomplishments, they are impressive certainly, but the level of play in the early WoL GSLs and MLGs is another world compared to today. In the end, accomplishments are the only thing we can actually measure, but I also think we can get a fairly good idea about relative skill levels as well. Flash and Nada are the most successful players ever, with 6 starleague titles each. On paper, they are even, but I think most people would recognise that Flash played in an environment where the level of competition was far more fierce. The reason Stephano is the best foreigner and it's not even close is, to put it in somewhat silly fashion, that he's the only foreigner who truly dominated his kin. Naniwa has always had the ability to beat top Koreans, but it's also never been surprising to see him get knocked out by players without any particularly impressive achievements. People tend to respect the ability to beat top competition more than anything else and in that category I'd say Stephano only has a slight edge, but not losing to lesser players is just as important an element of dominance.
Stephano was indeed very consistent, he almost never lost to people he was supposed to beat. His style and gamesense made him incredibly difficult to take out unless you could just straight up outplay him.
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On March 22 2014 00:50 Squat wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2014 00:46 braller wrote:On March 22 2014 00:29 Squat wrote:On March 21 2014 23:10 Morphage wrote:On March 21 2014 22:22 Squat wrote:On March 21 2014 21:59 Lonyo wrote:On March 21 2014 21:35 jarod wrote:On March 21 2014 21:32 SC2Toastie wrote:On March 21 2014 21:30 jarod wrote:
i guess the only team where naniwa can stay cool and not do stuff like this and not lose interest would be a korean team, staying in a korean team house.
I`m somehow sad that he left sc2(e-sport), but i have a feeling that he will be back, a bit sorry that the departure happened like this, he really looked like an ass when left IEM.
Some say that nani is the best foreigner.. i rank him top 5, hard to say who is the best, but i`d say something like Jinro, Stephano, Huk, Nani, Idra Misses Scarlett plz? Scarllet is awesome and can still be the best, but until now i cannot put her before Jinro or Stephano or Huk or even Idra, these 4 when they were at their best won tournaments or go deep in GSL, what did Scarllet win? (and naniwa beat last year scarllet, and overall showed better results). But hey! this is just my opinion. Scarlett and Jinro played at very different times. No disrespect to Jinro, but while he was at the top at the start, he would be nowhere these days. It's like the early days of BW, but compressed. The foreigners who did well succeeded for a while, but really that's because the game wasn't developed at the time. Scarlett is much more impressive as a player because the game is harder than it was. She may not have the same successes, but that's because the competition is harder in her "era". "Best" is a very vague and not very useful term. It just encompasses too much. We would be better off differentiating between most skilled and most accomplished. Stephano is the most accomplished, Nani and Scarlett were probably the ones with the highest skill level. Well "skill" is also quite vague, how do you determine who is the most skilled player? You can look on Aligulac ratings and see that Stephano had the better winrates and peak ratings out of the three. Stephano actually won tournaments, a lot of them, beating Koreans, he really solidified the ling/infestor/ultra style when pretty much all zergs were playing muta/ling, he was crushing Protoss players with his roach maxout timing, he was very consistent during his career, etc... I agree with you that "best" is a very vague term, but I think that in this situation it's pretty clear that Stephano was the "best" foreigner in SC2. And seriously? Putting Huk, Jinro and Idra in the same "tier" as Stephano, Naniwa and Scarlett is just wrong lol. It's not about how much you win, it's about who you win against. Stephano is the most successful foreigner by far, but I believe the level of opponents he faced cannot be favourably compared to what Scarlett and Nani faced in terms of raw ability. As for Jinro and HuK, they basically played and won when the game was in its infancy. No disrespect to them or their accomplishments, they are impressive certainly, but the level of play in the early WoL GSLs and MLGs is another world compared to today. In the end, accomplishments are the only thing we can actually measure, but I also think we can get a fairly good idea about relative skill levels as well. Flash and Nada are the most successful players ever, with 6 starleague titles each. On paper, they are even, but I think most people would recognise that Flash played in an environment where the level of competition was far more fierce. The reason Stephano is the best foreigner and it's not even close is, to put it in somewhat silly fashion, that he's the only foreigner who truly dominated his kin. Naniwa has always had the ability to beat top Koreans, but it's also never been surprising to see him get knocked out by players without any particularly impressive achievements. People tend to respect the ability to beat top competition more than anything else and in that category I'd say Stephano only has a slight edge, but not losing to lesser players is just as important an element of dominance. Stephano was indeed very consistent, he almost never lost to people he was supposed to beat. His style and gamesense made him incredibly difficult to take out unless you could just straight up outplay him.
Yep Stephano is clearly the best foreigner we ever had. Also it was most easy to cheer for him as he has a much better personality than Naniwa.
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Kennigit
Canada19447 Posts
On March 21 2014 23:55 mikkmagro wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2014 23:50 Kennigit wrote:On March 21 2014 23:25 Scorch wrote:
Naniwa forfeited the tournament, which was a huge affront to the organizers Dont be dumb. We were ready to replace Taeja two days earlier because he thought his hands may be too bad to play. We literally replaced the best CS:GO analyst in the world ON THE DAY OF THE EVENT. We're really really good at improvising and making shit work - if a player doesn't want to play, it's ok. We just replace him. Jarett Cale wasn't involved in the event until we fired Thorin....it was all improvised and put together in the final hours to make the event work...it was a miracle that he was on site. Shit happens. We deal with it. If a player doesn't want to play we can and will replace him with someone who does. Watch this magic: Naniwa: "I dont want to play" ESL: "Jaedong want a direct invite to fix the problem?" Jaedong: "Yes" Tada. There's no ''affront''. This isn't kespa. We just want to make make cool shit so people can enjoy it. b-b-b-b-ut hasu 
Hasu, Mana, JYP, JD....lots of options
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On March 22 2014 00:50 Squat wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2014 00:46 braller wrote:On March 22 2014 00:29 Squat wrote:On March 21 2014 23:10 Morphage wrote:On March 21 2014 22:22 Squat wrote:On March 21 2014 21:59 Lonyo wrote:On March 21 2014 21:35 jarod wrote:On March 21 2014 21:32 SC2Toastie wrote:On March 21 2014 21:30 jarod wrote:
i guess the only team where naniwa can stay cool and not do stuff like this and not lose interest would be a korean team, staying in a korean team house.
I`m somehow sad that he left sc2(e-sport), but i have a feeling that he will be back, a bit sorry that the departure happened like this, he really looked like an ass when left IEM.
Some say that nani is the best foreigner.. i rank him top 5, hard to say who is the best, but i`d say something like Jinro, Stephano, Huk, Nani, Idra Misses Scarlett plz? Scarllet is awesome and can still be the best, but until now i cannot put her before Jinro or Stephano or Huk or even Idra, these 4 when they were at their best won tournaments or go deep in GSL, what did Scarllet win? (and naniwa beat last year scarllet, and overall showed better results). But hey! this is just my opinion. Scarlett and Jinro played at very different times. No disrespect to Jinro, but while he was at the top at the start, he would be nowhere these days. It's like the early days of BW, but compressed. The foreigners who did well succeeded for a while, but really that's because the game wasn't developed at the time. Scarlett is much more impressive as a player because the game is harder than it was. She may not have the same successes, but that's because the competition is harder in her "era". "Best" is a very vague and not very useful term. It just encompasses too much. We would be better off differentiating between most skilled and most accomplished. Stephano is the most accomplished, Nani and Scarlett were probably the ones with the highest skill level. Well "skill" is also quite vague, how do you determine who is the most skilled player? You can look on Aligulac ratings and see that Stephano had the better winrates and peak ratings out of the three. Stephano actually won tournaments, a lot of them, beating Koreans, he really solidified the ling/infestor/ultra style when pretty much all zergs were playing muta/ling, he was crushing Protoss players with his roach maxout timing, he was very consistent during his career, etc... I agree with you that "best" is a very vague term, but I think that in this situation it's pretty clear that Stephano was the "best" foreigner in SC2. And seriously? Putting Huk, Jinro and Idra in the same "tier" as Stephano, Naniwa and Scarlett is just wrong lol. It's not about how much you win, it's about who you win against. Stephano is the most successful foreigner by far, but I believe the level of opponents he faced cannot be favourably compared to what Scarlett and Nani faced in terms of raw ability. As for Jinro and HuK, they basically played and won when the game was in its infancy. No disrespect to them or their accomplishments, they are impressive certainly, but the level of play in the early WoL GSLs and MLGs is another world compared to today. In the end, accomplishments are the only thing we can actually measure, but I also think we can get a fairly good idea about relative skill levels as well. Flash and Nada are the most successful players ever, with 6 starleague titles each. On paper, they are even, but I think most people would recognise that Flash played in an environment where the level of competition was far more fierce. The reason Stephano is the best foreigner and it's not even close is, to put it in somewhat silly fashion, that he's the only foreigner who truly dominated his kin. Naniwa has always had the ability to beat top Koreans, but it's also never been surprising to see him get knocked out by players without any particularly impressive achievements. People tend to respect the ability to beat top competition more than anything else and in that category I'd say Stephano only has a slight edge, but not losing to lesser players is just as important an element of dominance. Stephano was indeed very consistent, he almost never lost to people he was supposed to beat. His style and gamesense made him incredibly difficult to take out unless you could just straight up outplay him.
"I believe the level of opponents he faced cannot be favourably compared to what Scarlett and Nani faced in terms of raw ability"
yes because EVERYONE was lover level? please not this argument again.
Stephano won over more koreans than Naniwa, he revolutionized the metagame, he actually won tournaments, plus he was a more likeable personality. Naniwa's ability to beat koreans is comparable to Stephano's relative to that time, but that's it. he falls short at every different aspect. and btw he never did anything as impressive as Stephanos killing of like 5 gsl champions in a row. people keep saying he beat mvp and nestea, but they don't remember that he forced a rematch with nestea by lying about spawn positions, and that Demuslim/Haypro etc. also had wins vs mvp/nestea at that time.
bottom line, Naniwa's nowhere near Stephano's relative level at the time, period.
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Yep Stephano is clearly the best foreigner we ever had. Also it was most easy to cheer for him as he has a much better personality than Naniwa. Yet he did worse things than Naniwa ever did.
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While it doesn't excuse Naniwas behaviour, I wonder why Alliance even bothered to send him to IEM in the first place. He clearly didn't want to go and as we all know, he's not afraid to cause a scene either. It would have put both Alliance and Naniwa in a better light if they just let him go inactive/retire peacefully.
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Naniwas dismissal was certainly the correct course of actions on Alliances part. If Thorin somehow believes otherwise and even accuses EG/Alliance of improper behavior, then I have to wonder where he has worked in the past and how many of those places would have accepted not doing your job properly and humiliating the company publicly in the process without firing him. As a teamowner I would have fired Naniwa on the spot for that and our contracts do include a clause that would have allowed us to do that, no questions asked. Not doing your job is grounds for firing, no question about that. I imagine the interview will consist of accusations of mismanagement for sending him in the first place plus whatever other dirty laundry can be dug up, but they do not in any way excuse his actions.
Yet he did worse things than Naniwa ever did
As far as I'm concerned there is nothing worse than forfeiting a $100,000 exclusive high-profile event in front of a pissed off crowd and then lying about your reasons why.
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On March 22 2014 00:55 Dracolich70 wrote:Show nested quote +Yep Stephano is clearly the best foreigner we ever had. Also it was most easy to cheer for him as he has a much better personality than Naniwa. Yet he did worse things than Naniwa ever did.
yeah like getting drunk, or telling some distasteful but obvious jokes on a friends skype that idiots spread on reddit in 1 minute for karma.
"worse things" indeed
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how dare my employer ask me to do something i don't wanna do! naniwa needed a wake-up call and hopefully this will give him a slight one. his attitude and approach to a lot of things were just completely unprofessional and disrespectful. trying to blame alliance for the mistakes hes made is a joke.
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The kid has obviously problems that go beyond Starcraft 2 and it is sad for me, because these problems if not addressed will follow him in the future, and prevent him from having a happy life, from using his clear talent and focus. He will have a tough time working anywhere with this attitude.
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Thorin talking smack on EG/Alliance? NO WAY!
Dude has always has a problem with them. Yeah the organization who fucking pays players what they deserve is so damn terrible. EG so terrible that their players pretty much always want to resign with them... What a bad organization.
Naniwa has had issues with EVERY team he has ever been on. Maybe its not the teams...
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On March 22 2014 00:59 TotalBiscuit wrote:As far as I'm concerned there is nothing worse than forfeiting a $100,000 exclusive high-profile event in front of a pissed off crowd and then lying about your reasons why.
Although I don't think soundproofing was an issue (see San vs Hero or SoS vs Hero, proxy gates worked multiple times in the same environment), I also don't think naniwa was lying. I just think he talked himself into believing this, because it gives him a way out.
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On March 22 2014 01:09 jmbthirteen wrote:
Thorin talking smack on EG/Alliance? NO WAY!
Dude has always has a problem with them. Yeah the organization who fucking pays players what they deserve is so damn terrible. EG so terrible that their players pretty much always want to resign with them... What a bad organization.
Naniwa has had issues with EVERY team he has ever been on. Maybe its not the teams...
But they are totally evil for expecting people to perform certain tasks in exchange for payment! That's like, slavery or whatever.
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On March 22 2014 00:40 Gothic wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2014 00:08 -Celestial- wrote:So the simplest assumption is that they warned him that he'd be punished (likely financially) if he didn't go. And consequently he went (in hope of still getting paid? I don't know, speculating, there has to be SOME reason for him to have gone given that he clearly didn't want to be there).
Since we're speculating: what if the consequences weren't just "not getting paid" but also that he had to pay a substantial fine to the team? What if it said was basically: if you break this contract, you bind yourself to pay a fine of $100000. You still think he was "free to set his foot down"? Sometimes strings and ropes are invisible. And just as it was within the team's legal rights to push the contract to its limits, it was Nani's right to legally forfeit once he was on site. I doubt he had planned to forfeit, but the soundproof thing was the last drop that pushed him over the edge to do it anyway. In this theoretical scenario, he answered his team with the same coin. He pushed his legal rights. I'm not saying the above is true, but since people here tend to speculate and then turn their own theories and assumptions into truth, I thought I would show an alternative theory.
Except your own argument makes no sense. If your case was true then he would have played the games out and left quietly, so as not to have broken any terms of his contract. His actions here instead will have most definitely broken those terms in the most dramatic way possible, there WILL have been clauses with regards to bringing the team or its sponsors into disrepute. And given the industry they're likely to be associated with the most dire punishments. Teams cannot afford that level of negative publicity. Note how Idra was apparently constantly being fined for his attitude which eventually resulted in him being dropped by EG.
Naniwa will have had a contract for his team. That contract will have laid out the team's ability to levy punishments and fines for various actions. However there is always the possibility for a mutual termination of a contract. If he intended to retire then that will have been grounds for such a mutual termination. That will have let everyone part with good grace.
Therefore in your theoretical example instead of negotiating with the team for his release, or just playing on through to avoid breaking his contract, he has instead decided to take a huge fine just to make himself look bad and get sacked.
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I don't understand why so many people think Nani is acting like a baby and complaining. He seems to be perfectly fine with not having his team sponsor him anymore. Then again quite a few people seem to be saying they don't like Nani for these reasons but like Idra so yea xD
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On March 22 2014 00:59 TotalBiscuit wrote:As far as I'm concerned there is nothing worse than forfeiting a $100,000 exclusive high-profile event in front of a pissed off crowd and then lying about your reasons why. It is never fun being humiliated, when you have already said, your heart is not in it, and yet, sent away to do. I am sure, someone as intelligent as you can understand, TB(or at least your private side of the business). Not sure, if the soundproof thing was a lie, but I find it human to fetch an excuse, when being humilated for reason you already knew beforehand.
Regardless of any notion of otherwise, I am sure, most players play for their own, rather than for a bunch of people paying to watch them play out of form.
Stephano forfeited plenty of tournaments as far as I recall.
Naniwas dismissal was certainly the correct course of actions on Alliances part. If Thorin somehow believes otherwise and even accuses EG/Alliance of improper behavior, then I have to wonder where he has worked in the past and how many of those places would have accepted not doing your job properly and humiliating the company publicly in the process without firing him. As a teamowner I would have fired Naniwa on the spot for that and our contracts do include a clause that would have allowed us to do that, no questions asked. Not doing your job is grounds for firing, no question about that. I imagine the interview will consist of accusations of mismanagement for sending him in the first place plus whatever other dirty laundry can be dug up, but they do not in any way excuse his actions.
I have this great human belief that you would not send one of your players, that would hurt him/her, rather than help him/her. Come on, TB, I know you'd protect your children <3.
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On March 22 2014 00:55 Kennigit wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2014 23:55 mikkmagro wrote:On March 21 2014 23:50 Kennigit wrote:On March 21 2014 23:25 Scorch wrote:
Naniwa forfeited the tournament, which was a huge affront to the organizers Dont be dumb. We were ready to replace Taeja two days earlier because he thought his hands may be too bad to play. We literally replaced the best CS:GO analyst in the world ON THE DAY OF THE EVENT. We're really really good at improvising and making shit work - if a player doesn't want to play, it's ok. We just replace him. Jarett Cale wasn't involved in the event until we fired Thorin....it was all improvised and put together in the final hours to make the event work...it was a miracle that he was on site. Shit happens. We deal with it. If a player doesn't want to play we can and will replace him with someone who does. Watch this magic: Naniwa: "I dont want to play" ESL: "Jaedong want a direct invite to fix the problem?" Jaedong: "Yes" Tada. There's no ''affront''. This isn't kespa. We just want to make make cool shit so people can enjoy it. b-b-b-b-ut hasu Hasu, Mana, JYP, JD....lots of options
Hasu made it to spot 3 in the open bracket, I had my hopes up he would replace Naniwa as well x3. But I know JD was just an example.
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What a terrible attitude to have. It's what I would expect from a rebellious 16 or 17-year-old, but not from a 24-year-old adult. Don't care how good he is, that kind of attitude is nothing but destructive to the scene that sustains him and his profession. Also, I like how he seems to believe he has all the time in word, when there's dozens of younger, motivated players working hard to take his place.
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EPT
