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On March 13 2014 11:25 Yorkie wrote:
Don't bring team games into this. It is soooooooooooooo frickin hard to balance a three race game as it is without making all the units do the same thing just with different appearances. If you think they're gonna put serious effort into trying to balance team games you're out of your mind
They could feasibly have slightly different stats for different gametypes. For example, increasing the build time of spawning pools in 2v2 because of the strength of double zerg 1 base ling all ins. Or something, I don't know, I'm not a balance designer.
The attitude of "don't bring team games into this" is way too common. Playing 1v1 is pretty lonely at times. The game would have a lot more appeal if playing with your buddies was more enjoyable than it is at the moment.
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1001 YEARS KESPAJAIL22272 Posts
Team games could be balanced with maps. Instead of current map design, someone should try a "moba-like" map where each player on the team gets a "lane" that slowly collapses into an open map after X minutes. Basically it's 2/3/4 1v1s on the same map in the early and mid game before it becomes all out war in the late game. This will discourage most (but not all) early game rushes and add an interesting dynamic to the game.
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I find it hilarious that everyone's heaping abuse on David Kim for swarm hosts and force fields when he isn't the design lead... he simply balances the existing units.
It is not David Kim who created these units and mechanics... nor do I believe it is his call to remove them.
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On March 13 2014 11:45 lichter wrote:
Team games could be balanced with maps. Instead of current map design, someone should try a "moba-like" map where each player on the team gets a "lane" that slowly collapses into an open map after X minutes. Basically it's 2/3/4 1v1s on the same map in the early and mid game before it becomes all out war in the late game. This will discourage most (but not all) early game rushes and add an interesting dynamic to the game.
Map design is the major issue for sure. If the pool got updated as much as 1v1 it would probably not be an issue. But the current pool has maps on it that'd be equivalent to Daybreak and Cloud Kingdom still being in 1v1, and they've brought out a map that kinda resembles Steppes of War in rush distance. The 7 roach rush is incredibly viable on it. Seriously.
Going moba would be interesting, but I wouldn't like to reduce all team games to it. Maybe just a game type. Could even have a 5v5 game mode which is moba like.
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If nothing substantial comes out for LotV I will not be purchasing it. As it is, my interest in SC2 has waned to an all-time low. I really hope they announce the expansion soon.
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On March 13 2014 11:04 Waise wrote:Show nested quote +On March 13 2014 11:00 Headnoob wrote:On March 13 2014 10:58 Waise wrote:On March 13 2014 10:54 avilo wrote:
Swarmhosts are not necessary vs mech in the first place - the viper alone allows Zerg to fight against turtle meching Terrans. a terran who's not good enough to play in wcs explaining how he knows more about zerg than zergs who are good enough to play in wcs, buffered by a 1000-page theorycraft essay with repeated references to how you literally invented the concept of constructing a raven i would know this is avilo even without seeing the name I wasn't aware people weren't allowed to know things about other races than just the one they play. You've helped me see the light. yup, that was definitely my point, it couldn't have been that avilo is a blowhard troll with a history of raging on forums about things above his skill level
Seeing as how Avilo's skill level is higher than 99.8% of players, I think he is more than qualified to speak to the balance of the game at the highest level 
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On March 13 2014 11:14 Yorkie wrote:Show nested quote +On March 13 2014 11:11 Wombat_NI wrote:On March 13 2014 11:06 Parcelleus wrote:
David Kim is correct, stop whining and get better (basically). However, given how many foreigners love to whine, I expect the whining to continue.
Thanks David, keep to your guns and listen to korean top pros. AKA some of THE whiniest players out there? It's not a balance issue for many in the community anyway, it's a fun/enjoyability, no amount of 'get better' fixes that Half the people are saying "Blizz is catering to the casuals and don't even care about competitive play" and the rest say the opposite. They just can't win. They try their best and they just get flamed, so they'd rather be conservative with their changes
Really? Because I have never seen anyone say Blizzard is catering to the casuals...
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On March 13 2014 12:16 Survivor61316 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 13 2014 11:14 Yorkie wrote:On March 13 2014 11:11 Wombat_NI wrote:On March 13 2014 11:06 Parcelleus wrote:
David Kim is correct, stop whining and get better (basically). However, given how many foreigners love to whine, I expect the whining to continue.
Thanks David, keep to your guns and listen to korean top pros. AKA some of THE whiniest players out there? It's not a balance issue for many in the community anyway, it's a fun/enjoyability, no amount of 'get better' fixes that Half the people are saying "Blizz is catering to the casuals and don't even care about competitive play" and the rest say the opposite. They just can't win. They try their best and they just get flamed, so they'd rather be conservative with their changes Really? Because I have never seen anyone say Blizzard is catering to the casuals...
Clearly you don't remember when they put the worker counts above the town halls. Or when they changed up the command icons.
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On March 13 2014 07:03 Spaylz wrote:Show nested quote +On March 13 2014 06:35 andrewlt wrote:
Not sure why SC2 team is like this when all other Blizzard teams view expansions as a hard reset starting from BW. BW, LoD, TFT, all WoW expansions and RoS contain drastic changes. HotS had fewest changes of any Blizz expansion pack to date, aside from the Sierra created Diablo 1 xpac. BW/TFT had major e-sports scenes so it's not like SC2 is unique in this regard. I'm tempted to agree with you, but at the same time I'm not. WoW, Diablo, etc. aren't really solid comparisons because RTS games are different, but as far as WC3 is concerned... TFT did bring a lot to RoC (one hero for each race, racial shop, some maps I believe, the EXP threshold on creeps, etc..) but the core elements of the game were the same. I wouldn't go as far as to call TFT a hard reset of RoC, but it was definitely an astonishing improvement that quickly let TFT become competitive. It's true that HotS was nowhere near that. The sad truth is, Blizzard was never a company known for making bold changes. Don't get me wrong, SC, BW, RoC and TFT were all revolutions in their own rights in terms of gaming, but even in those games, Blizzard never made any major change to the core gameplay post-release. The same is happening with SC2, and while people were already whining on WC3 about Blizzard not making big changes, it is becoming a bigger issue now because you have other popular games doing huge tweaks to their gameplay to keep the players interested and to freshen things up. DK once again didn't really provide any interesting answer. It's rather clear now that they do not intend to do any sort of overhaul, SC2 will stay vaguely the same. It's truly weird, as when you compare it to WC3, the expansions really do not hold up in terms of improvements and changes... I feel like Blizzard has grown too cautious, and wishes to stay away from unexplored grounds as much as possible.
How is making warp in, forcefields, free units etc not bold change?
Its an expansion pack, if it's truly problematic, then obviously there will be changes.
But asking for a complete rework of these mechanics is unrealistic, because like they said, the problem is not the mechanics itself, it's the lack of options to deal with forcefields etc
Warp in and forcefield are not fun to watch?
Look at one of the best game this year has, hero vs jd game 5 iem.
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How big is the pro scene really going to be when LotV drops? SC2 isn't exactly growing. The people who are still playing right now who are happy enough to play it are going to play whatever LotV is. People who don't like it will just move on, as most people already have.
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On March 13 2014 11:45 lichter wrote:
Team games could be balanced with maps. Instead of current map design, someone should try a "moba-like" map where each player on the team gets a "lane" that slowly collapses into an open map after X minutes. Basically it's 2/3/4 1v1s on the same map in the early and mid game before it becomes all out war in the late game. This will discourage most (but not all) early game rushes and add an interesting dynamic to the game.
There are maps that are kind of like that, but the more you isolate players from the rest of the team the more potent it becomes to just double rush one of the players. When you coutner that by making the bases invulnerabe for early rushes then you promote a turtle style that would be even more boring imo.
I think some of the newer 2v2 maps do a very good job in creating interesting team games. For 3v3 and 4v4 I could imagine army size restrictions to work really well. If you have a 100 food limit it would promote aggressive play and fast tech.
I think most of the complains about team games come from player who think early aggression is somehow dishonorable when it is just how you have to play that game mode.
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On March 13 2014 12:38 hariooo wrote:
How big is the pro scene really going to be when LotV drops? SC2 isn't exactly growing. The people who are still playing right now who are happy enough to play it are going to play whatever LotV is. People who don't like it will just move on, as most people already have.
I don't think that's as dramatic as people make it out to be. There will be a big boost when lotv comes out, then it will slowly die off and then we get WC4. I'm completely fine with that. Nothing can or should live forever.
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So disappointed at these answers. it's like he isn't even trying to understand the community.
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On March 13 2014 12:25 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On March 13 2014 12:16 Survivor61316 wrote:On March 13 2014 11:14 Yorkie wrote:On March 13 2014 11:11 Wombat_NI wrote:On March 13 2014 11:06 Parcelleus wrote:
David Kim is correct, stop whining and get better (basically). However, given how many foreigners love to whine, I expect the whining to continue.
Thanks David, keep to your guns and listen to korean top pros. AKA some of THE whiniest players out there? It's not a balance issue for many in the community anyway, it's a fun/enjoyability, no amount of 'get better' fixes that Half the people are saying "Blizz is catering to the casuals and don't even care about competitive play" and the rest say the opposite. They just can't win. They try their best and they just get flamed, so they'd rather be conservative with their changes Really? Because I have never seen anyone say Blizzard is catering to the casuals... Clearly you don't remember when they put the worker counts above the town halls. Or when they changed up the command icons.
Oh you mean that change that took place over a year ago..definitely has a lot of weight with balance discussion today
I think the fact that you had to go so far into the past to come up with an example only proves my point..
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1001 YEARS KESPAJAIL22272 Posts
On March 13 2014 12:42 StaraCroft wrote:Show nested quote +On March 13 2014 11:45 lichter wrote:
Team games could be balanced with maps. Instead of current map design, someone should try a "moba-like" map where each player on the team gets a "lane" that slowly collapses into an open map after X minutes. Basically it's 2/3/4 1v1s on the same map in the early and mid game before it becomes all out war in the late game. This will discourage most (but not all) early game rushes and add an interesting dynamic to the game. There are maps that are kind of like that, but the more you isolate players from the rest of the team the more potent it becomes to just double rush one of the players. When you coutner that by making the bases invulnerabe for early rushes then you promote a turtle style that would be even more boring imo. I think some of the newer 2v2 maps do a very good job in creating interesting team games. For 3v3 and 4v4 I could imagine army size restrictions to work really well. If you have a 100 food limit it would promote aggressive play and fast tech. I think most of the complains about team games come from player who think early aggression is somehow dishonorable when it is just how you have to play that game mode.
Each lane is isolated enough so that double rushes aren't as feasible, but 1v1 cheeses are still viable. A long rush distance to do a double rush could dissuade it enough that only the most spectacular of builds will work.
Because the game is balanced for 1v1, approaching team map design similar to 1v1 (main base, natural, third, open area, etc) is a mistake. The dynamics are naturally different, so the map structure has to be different.
Back in 2010 I had no problem holding off 2v2 rushes as a 1base Zerg at the top of the ladder. Pretty sure it should be easier now.
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On March 13 2014 12:45 StaraCroft wrote:Show nested quote +On March 13 2014 12:38 hariooo wrote:
How big is the pro scene really going to be when LotV drops? SC2 isn't exactly growing. The people who are still playing right now who are happy enough to play it are going to play whatever LotV is. People who don't like it will just move on, as most people already have. I don't think that's as dramatic as people make it out to be. There will be a big boost when lotv comes out, then it will slowly die off and then we get WC4. I'm completely fine with that. Nothing can or should live forever.
Let's be real there's no WC4 coming. No way Blizzard is going to pursue another title that doesn't use the Hearthstone or HeroesotS business model. And that makes me sad because it kind of kills the RTS genre.
And another thing. BW might not have lived forever but Blizzard personally pushed it out. BW died not because it wasn't fun anymore or of any other "natural cause" (well match-fixing didn't help), but Blizzard pushed Kespa to support the new game. It's their right as a business but BW could definitely have lived a long time. Its current resurrection in Korea is evidence for that.
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On March 13 2014 12:53 Survivor61316 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 13 2014 12:25 Plansix wrote:On March 13 2014 12:16 Survivor61316 wrote:On March 13 2014 11:14 Yorkie wrote:On March 13 2014 11:11 Wombat_NI wrote:On March 13 2014 11:06 Parcelleus wrote:
David Kim is correct, stop whining and get better (basically). However, given how many foreigners love to whine, I expect the whining to continue.
Thanks David, keep to your guns and listen to korean top pros. AKA some of THE whiniest players out there? It's not a balance issue for many in the community anyway, it's a fun/enjoyability, no amount of 'get better' fixes that Half the people are saying "Blizz is catering to the casuals and don't even care about competitive play" and the rest say the opposite. They just can't win. They try their best and they just get flamed, so they'd rather be conservative with their changes Really? Because I have never seen anyone say Blizzard is catering to the casuals... Clearly you don't remember when they put the worker counts above the town halls. Or when they changed up the command icons. Oh you mean that change that took place over a year ago..definitely has a lot of weight with balance discussion today I think the fact that you had to go so far into the past to come up with an example only proves my point..
You mean slightly more than a year ago? That's really not that far.
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his answer at the end about forcefield, units clumping and expanding are just heartbreaking to read..
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On March 13 2014 12:52 LastDance wrote:
So disappointed at these answers. it's like he isn't even trying to understand the community.
Disagreed. The most vocal PART of the community are the people who think SC2 should be like BW. Not everyone in the community agrees, I dont. I think DK is aware of this, hence his consistent position (SC2 isnt trying or want to be BW).
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What David said about No Fly zones could really help team games and make them more mainstream. Also adding base recall as a special 15min cool down on teams only so you don't get that BS stuff where all teams rush units to 1 guy and kill that guy then it goes to 2v3, now your buddies can warp in and help you quickly.
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EPT
