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On March 03 2014 12:07 vthree wrote:Show nested quote +On March 03 2014 06:39 NVRLand wrote:On March 03 2014 03:32 Foxxan wrote:On March 02 2014 22:58 NVRLand wrote:On March 02 2014 10:20 Foxxan wrote:On March 02 2014 09:40 plogamer wrote:On March 02 2014 09:30 _Epi_ wrote:
I think one of the core issue is the High Templar Oh but it has no attack. So it's perfectly reasonable that one or two high templars can dent 30+ supply against Terran opponents. It's the Terran's fault for eating storms. Good Terrans never eat storms but even the best protoss cannot dodge emps. Why? Because emp is instant damage. INSTANT. You know it's powerful because it's instant. Very true Against 15storms, a good terran dont eat a single one The reason terran units needs to be "weaker" is because of the potential of the army. You guys are using marines (50 minerals) and marauders (100/25) in the lategame as your main source of damage output. This sounds weird as fuck in my eyes. A protoss needs colossus (300/200), high templars (50/150) and a meath shield to deal with your army of 50 mineral units. The reason this works is because your units can be worth more the better they are used. An amoving terran will lose horribly because he's using units worth 50 and 100/25, of course they will melt to the amoving protoss units (where the CHEAPEST is 100 minerals, stalkers are 125/50, etc). So the terran army has more "micro" potential to make up for this. In some way it's unfair to the terran player since they will need to "raise" the value of their army with good micro but I guess that's the "payback" for having the cheapest lategame army? I'm a protoss player and I rarely micro harder than my opponent. He's splitting, stutter stepping vikings, etc while I'm amoving, storming, forcefielding and guardian shielding. It's not that hard to maneuver a protoss army tbh. The thing is though that we invest so much more int our army. I have 4 - 5 colossuses (300/200), I have 5 - 6 high templars (50/150), I have a sentry (50/100), I have 7 - 8 stalkers (125/50), the list goes on. The strength in our army is that it's a ball of heavy, expensive units. Do you terrans really think an expensive army like that should need as much micro as an army consisting of marines and marauders which are significantly cheaper? Add to that the fact that the protoss needs to look away from the fight to reinforce. Would you be able to do the same amount of stutter stepping and splitting if you weren't allowed to look at your army while making new units? In the end, I think protoss is an easier race and slightly op in pvt but I'm annoyed by terrans who have the mindset that "Since my army requires more micro, I deserve the win more". Sometimes I feel like the power of protoss lies in making the perfect composition while dealing with pressure. To make the ultimate army (Remember that EVERY time a protoss warps in a unit, he's making a choice. Do I want a zealot? Stalker? Sentry? High templar? Dark templar?) WHILE being able to deflect that double medivac drop, WHILE having a stimmed army which can snipe your nexus in under 10 seconds because you're out of position, etc. I stay away from balance discussions as I don't think anyone here can make an unbiased case. We're all biased. However I wish terrans would stop thinking that because they need to put more apm into the fights, they deserve the win more. That's not how a RTS game works. And you/protoss use mass zealots(100minerals) in midgame/lategame. Isnt that to weird as fuck? What about medivacs. They dont count? Vikings, dont count either? And ghost...dont count. Ok i get it, only marine and marauder count I used the term "as the main source of damage output", that's why I left out ghosts/medivacs/vikings. Yes, massive zealot warp-ins late game is op however, that doesn't change my opinion. Zealots are only viable versus terran once they got charge. If you've ever played protoss and tried to defend early aggression you'll find yourself VERY frustrated when you spend 500 minerals on 5 zealots and they do exactly 0 damage because of the terran micro. Terran doesn't have any melee units (except for SCVs) so they don't get this point. Until charge, a zealot isn't doing damage, it's only tanking damage due to stutter step (of course there are exceptions, but you get the general picture hopefully). On March 03 2014 03:32 Foxxan wrote:
Personally i believe the gameplay would be alot better if toss had micro units to with a more equal macro to terran.
And well, do i need to mention the colossus?
It has been talked to death but the unit is very boring to play against AND to play with imo. Yep, and there's where your opinion differs from many others. Sure, Blizzard could have made the races exactly the same but with different models. There's a reason mirror match-ups are the least liked though. On March 03 2014 03:32 Foxxan wrote:However I wish terrans would stop thinking that because they need to put more apm into the fights, they deserve the win more. That's not how a RTS game works Thanks for this. I didnt know this actually You seem to be the kind of person who isn't interested in a discussion. You probably just want me to say "Sorry, I'll switch to terran so that my wins suddenly count  ", right? 'Zealots are only viable versus terran once they got charge. If you've ever played protoss and tried to defend early aggression you'll find yourself VERY frustrated when you spend 500 minerals on 5 zealots and they do exactly 0 damage because of the terran micro. Terran doesn't have any melee units (except for SCVs) so they don't get this point.' Zealots do fine before the terran has stim. They are only 'weak' when in between when stim is done and charge has not finished. As for units not doing much damage because they are kited. It doesn't only apply to melee units. What do you think happens when 2 stalkers catch 6 marines that don't have stim in the middle of the map? Yeah, most of those 6 are dead with maybe only shield damage on the stalkers
Photon overcharge? That's some crazy hypothetical that does not exist at any moderate to high level of skill.
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On March 03 2014 12:28 ETisME wrote:Show nested quote +On March 03 2014 11:36 vthree wrote:On March 03 2014 00:16 ETisME wrote:On March 02 2014 23:57 vthree wrote:On March 02 2014 23:32 ETisME wrote:On March 02 2014 23:26 TurboMaN wrote:On March 02 2014 09:40 plogamer wrote:On March 02 2014 09:30 _Epi_ wrote:
I think one of the core issue is the High Templar Oh but it has no attack. So it's perfectly reasonable that one or two high templars can dent 30+ supply against Terran opponents. It's the Terran's fault for eating storms. Good Terrans never eat storms but even the best protoss cannot dodge emps. Why? Because emp is instant damage. INSTANT. You know it's powerful because it's instant. I don't believe that Can you please provide us with a game of two high level player where the Terran doesn't eat a storms because he dodges every single storm? From what I've seen on Pro streams in many games is that even Teaja, Polt, Innovation, Byun, Marineking get their armies demolished by storms from time to time. No Terran can dodge every storm in a TvP vs an at least equally skilled Protoss. If EMP would have the same delay as storms it wouldn't make a difference because the Protoss army is way slower. However in my opinion the issue is not with the Templar but within the Warpgate design. Protoss players can use it to: - Offensively warp in units - Defensively to defend drops (additional to Photon Overcharge) - Spend a bank of money to instantly rebuild a strong army What is so strong about it: - Build time (faster than normal Gateway build time) - Chronoboost (makes the build time even faster) - Lack of opportunity costs (apart from proxy builds Gateways don't offer any advantage over Warpgates) He is joking  Also one reason why storms are hitting more often is because protoss players are getting better, most kespa players are doing a lot of ht flanks, some would do warp prism ht storm and split up their hts. from the list of terrans you put up, only taeja really uses ghost heavy TvP style. It's understandable that storm is extremely good when terran is "forced" to play marine marauder mid game and has smaller room to add ghost tech. Warp in is fine. You have to remember it was never much of a problem back in WoL since gateway army is horrible against a nice bio ball anyway. Terran's heavy marauder ghost viking in WoL was pretty insanely powerful against anything protoss can throw at them. It's just that in hots, it is harder to survive until that stage and even if the terran does get to that stage, protoss can start having tempests out which makes things a lot harder for terran You can't compare HoTS with WoL. Gateway army is great against bio until stim and medivacs are out. In WoL, this forced the Protoss to make at least 5-6 sentries to defend that stim+2 medivac push. But with the MsC, that push is no longer effective because Protoss has MSC, so you see Protoss going with 1-2 sentries for guardian shield and going for early storm and quicker third. So by the time Terran has 6 medivacs to overcome the photon overcharge, Protoss already have storm. That is why Terrans have been having a hard time, the timing window to 'push' back is so small. this is why i said terran is "forced" to play marine marauder. warp gate tech is not the issue, it's the early game snowballing but early game warp gate tech is one of the reasons protoss get the early game snowballing. It is also one of the reasons that PvP needs a 60 second overcharge. Warp ins makes it so that if you get an early army advantage (even 1 or 2 stalkers), it just snowballs because your production can arrive so close to the base. Things like blink all-ins would be a lot weaker if the protoss needed to walk reinforcement stalkers across the map. Of course, it isn't just the warp in tech only. It is more a combination of warp in, MsC and the possibility of oracle play that is forcing the terran into very narrow tech paths/builds. That is true for most OP builds. BL/infestors was a combination of Queens, bigger maps, better creep spread, and then finally BL/infestors themselves. 1-1-1 was combination of banshee harass + marines + tank range + maps + terran wall off not allowing protoss to scout. PvP needs an overcharge is because how coin flipping it is. Warp in tech is a feature, you can't just say it is why protoss is doing great now. in WoL, generally Terran has a great map control when medivacs are out. Warp gate tech only helps in defending them and that part of the game is perfectly balance. (because splitting up protoss army is more complicated than splitting up marine marauder in two locations) The whole blink all in and how protoss is played out is warp in tech. there wouldn't even be blink all in if the stalkers needs to walk all the way from the home base. The fact that blink all in in WoL is largely defendable even with warp gate tech is not because terran player is uber good or protoss player is horrible. It's just that in hots, blink all in is a lot stronger, with the current map and faster high ground vision unit that gives great support to blink stalkers. also zvz micro also is about maintaining the concave. You can see how zerg keeps readjusting the army position to allow better concaves or punch through a weaker army positioning on one side (see tefel vs sort of yesterday zotac cup), especially more of repositioning when hydras are involved.
Yes, but the game is a bit more complicated then that. BL/infestors were only a problem after the Queen buff and yet it was the fungal that was nerfed. Blizzard could have nerfed the Queen back down instead but then we are back to square one.
Sure, you can bring back WoL early game balance in PvT if we just removed the MsC. But then we are back to WoL. When you add in a unit/buff a unit in the game, it creates synergy with features/units. And sometimes that synergy could be too much. One great example is hellbat drops. What made hellbats drops so good?
1) Medivac speed boost
2) Medivacs healing hellbats
3) Hellbat early game damage
It wasn't only 1 thing that made it strong, it is the combination. For P, it is the offensive capabilities of forward warp gates plus the offensive/scouting capabilities of MsC that is making them strong early game.
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how are the hydras working out for all the zergs? could just be in my head but, roach hydra seems to trade a bit better against mech army now.
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On March 03 2014 12:33 plogamer wrote:Show nested quote +On March 03 2014 12:07 vthree wrote:On March 03 2014 06:39 NVRLand wrote:On March 03 2014 03:32 Foxxan wrote:On March 02 2014 22:58 NVRLand wrote:On March 02 2014 10:20 Foxxan wrote:On March 02 2014 09:40 plogamer wrote:On March 02 2014 09:30 _Epi_ wrote:
I think one of the core issue is the High Templar Oh but it has no attack. So it's perfectly reasonable that one or two high templars can dent 30+ supply against Terran opponents. It's the Terran's fault for eating storms. Good Terrans never eat storms but even the best protoss cannot dodge emps. Why? Because emp is instant damage. INSTANT. You know it's powerful because it's instant. Very true Against 15storms, a good terran dont eat a single one The reason terran units needs to be "weaker" is because of the potential of the army. You guys are using marines (50 minerals) and marauders (100/25) in the lategame as your main source of damage output. This sounds weird as fuck in my eyes. A protoss needs colossus (300/200), high templars (50/150) and a meath shield to deal with your army of 50 mineral units. The reason this works is because your units can be worth more the better they are used. An amoving terran will lose horribly because he's using units worth 50 and 100/25, of course they will melt to the amoving protoss units (where the CHEAPEST is 100 minerals, stalkers are 125/50, etc). So the terran army has more "micro" potential to make up for this. In some way it's unfair to the terran player since they will need to "raise" the value of their army with good micro but I guess that's the "payback" for having the cheapest lategame army? I'm a protoss player and I rarely micro harder than my opponent. He's splitting, stutter stepping vikings, etc while I'm amoving, storming, forcefielding and guardian shielding. It's not that hard to maneuver a protoss army tbh. The thing is though that we invest so much more int our army. I have 4 - 5 colossuses (300/200), I have 5 - 6 high templars (50/150), I have a sentry (50/100), I have 7 - 8 stalkers (125/50), the list goes on. The strength in our army is that it's a ball of heavy, expensive units. Do you terrans really think an expensive army like that should need as much micro as an army consisting of marines and marauders which are significantly cheaper? Add to that the fact that the protoss needs to look away from the fight to reinforce. Would you be able to do the same amount of stutter stepping and splitting if you weren't allowed to look at your army while making new units? In the end, I think protoss is an easier race and slightly op in pvt but I'm annoyed by terrans who have the mindset that "Since my army requires more micro, I deserve the win more". Sometimes I feel like the power of protoss lies in making the perfect composition while dealing with pressure. To make the ultimate army (Remember that EVERY time a protoss warps in a unit, he's making a choice. Do I want a zealot? Stalker? Sentry? High templar? Dark templar?) WHILE being able to deflect that double medivac drop, WHILE having a stimmed army which can snipe your nexus in under 10 seconds because you're out of position, etc. I stay away from balance discussions as I don't think anyone here can make an unbiased case. We're all biased. However I wish terrans would stop thinking that because they need to put more apm into the fights, they deserve the win more. That's not how a RTS game works. And you/protoss use mass zealots(100minerals) in midgame/lategame. Isnt that to weird as fuck? What about medivacs. They dont count? Vikings, dont count either? And ghost...dont count. Ok i get it, only marine and marauder count I used the term "as the main source of damage output", that's why I left out ghosts/medivacs/vikings. Yes, massive zealot warp-ins late game is op however, that doesn't change my opinion. Zealots are only viable versus terran once they got charge. If you've ever played protoss and tried to defend early aggression you'll find yourself VERY frustrated when you spend 500 minerals on 5 zealots and they do exactly 0 damage because of the terran micro. Terran doesn't have any melee units (except for SCVs) so they don't get this point. Until charge, a zealot isn't doing damage, it's only tanking damage due to stutter step (of course there are exceptions, but you get the general picture hopefully). On March 03 2014 03:32 Foxxan wrote:
Personally i believe the gameplay would be alot better if toss had micro units to with a more equal macro to terran.
And well, do i need to mention the colossus?
It has been talked to death but the unit is very boring to play against AND to play with imo. Yep, and there's where your opinion differs from many others. Sure, Blizzard could have made the races exactly the same but with different models. There's a reason mirror match-ups are the least liked though. On March 03 2014 03:32 Foxxan wrote:However I wish terrans would stop thinking that because they need to put more apm into the fights, they deserve the win more. That's not how a RTS game works Thanks for this. I didnt know this actually You seem to be the kind of person who isn't interested in a discussion. You probably just want me to say "Sorry, I'll switch to terran so that my wins suddenly count ", right? 'Zealots are only viable versus terran once they got charge. If you've ever played protoss and tried to defend early aggression you'll find yourself VERY frustrated when you spend 500 minerals on 5 zealots and they do exactly 0 damage because of the terran micro. Terran doesn't have any melee units (except for SCVs) so they don't get this point.' Zealots do fine before the terran has stim. They are only 'weak' when in between when stim is done and charge has not finished. As for units not doing much damage because they are kited. It doesn't only apply to melee units. What do you think happens when 2 stalkers catch 6 marines that don't have stim in the middle of the map? Yeah, most of those 6 are dead with maybe only shield damage on the stalkers Photon overcharge? That's some crazy hypothetical that does not exist at any moderate to high level of skill.
I cannot believe anyone would even attempt to bring that up as a point with photon overcharge in the game...
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United States7483 Posts
On March 03 2014 12:45 vthree wrote:Show nested quote +On March 03 2014 12:28 ETisME wrote:On March 03 2014 11:36 vthree wrote:On March 03 2014 00:16 ETisME wrote:On March 02 2014 23:57 vthree wrote:On March 02 2014 23:32 ETisME wrote:On March 02 2014 23:26 TurboMaN wrote:On March 02 2014 09:40 plogamer wrote:On March 02 2014 09:30 _Epi_ wrote:
I think one of the core issue is the High Templar Oh but it has no attack. So it's perfectly reasonable that one or two high templars can dent 30+ supply against Terran opponents. It's the Terran's fault for eating storms. Good Terrans never eat storms but even the best protoss cannot dodge emps. Why? Because emp is instant damage. INSTANT. You know it's powerful because it's instant. I don't believe that Can you please provide us with a game of two high level player where the Terran doesn't eat a storms because he dodges every single storm? From what I've seen on Pro streams in many games is that even Teaja, Polt, Innovation, Byun, Marineking get their armies demolished by storms from time to time. No Terran can dodge every storm in a TvP vs an at least equally skilled Protoss. If EMP would have the same delay as storms it wouldn't make a difference because the Protoss army is way slower. However in my opinion the issue is not with the Templar but within the Warpgate design. Protoss players can use it to: - Offensively warp in units - Defensively to defend drops (additional to Photon Overcharge) - Spend a bank of money to instantly rebuild a strong army What is so strong about it: - Build time (faster than normal Gateway build time) - Chronoboost (makes the build time even faster) - Lack of opportunity costs (apart from proxy builds Gateways don't offer any advantage over Warpgates) He is joking Also one reason why storms are hitting more often is because protoss players are getting better, most kespa players are doing a lot of ht flanks, some would do warp prism ht storm and split up their hts. from the list of terrans you put up, only taeja really uses ghost heavy TvP style. It's understandable that storm is extremely good when terran is "forced" to play marine marauder mid game and has smaller room to add ghost tech. Warp in is fine. You have to remember it was never much of a problem back in WoL since gateway army is horrible against a nice bio ball anyway. Terran's heavy marauder ghost viking in WoL was pretty insanely powerful against anything protoss can throw at them. It's just that in hots, it is harder to survive until that stage and even if the terran does get to that stage, protoss can start having tempests out which makes things a lot harder for terran You can't compare HoTS with WoL. Gateway army is great against bio until stim and medivacs are out. In WoL, this forced the Protoss to make at least 5-6 sentries to defend that stim+2 medivac push. But with the MsC, that push is no longer effective because Protoss has MSC, so you see Protoss going with 1-2 sentries for guardian shield and going for early storm and quicker third. So by the time Terran has 6 medivacs to overcome the photon overcharge, Protoss already have storm. That is why Terrans have been having a hard time, the timing window to 'push' back is so small. this is why i said terran is "forced" to play marine marauder. warp gate tech is not the issue, it's the early game snowballing but early game warp gate tech is one of the reasons protoss get the early game snowballing. It is also one of the reasons that PvP needs a 60 second overcharge. Warp ins makes it so that if you get an early army advantage (even 1 or 2 stalkers), it just snowballs because your production can arrive so close to the base. Things like blink all-ins would be a lot weaker if the protoss needed to walk reinforcement stalkers across the map. Of course, it isn't just the warp in tech only. It is more a combination of warp in, MsC and the possibility of oracle play that is forcing the terran into very narrow tech paths/builds. That is true for most OP builds. BL/infestors was a combination of Queens, bigger maps, better creep spread, and then finally BL/infestors themselves. 1-1-1 was combination of banshee harass + marines + tank range + maps + terran wall off not allowing protoss to scout. PvP needs an overcharge is because how coin flipping it is. Warp in tech is a feature, you can't just say it is why protoss is doing great now. in WoL, generally Terran has a great map control when medivacs are out. Warp gate tech only helps in defending them and that part of the game is perfectly balance. (because splitting up protoss army is more complicated than splitting up marine marauder in two locations) The whole blink all in and how protoss is played out is warp in tech. there wouldn't even be blink all in if the stalkers needs to walk all the way from the home base. The fact that blink all in in WoL is largely defendable even with warp gate tech is not because terran player is uber good or protoss player is horrible. It's just that in hots, blink all in is a lot stronger, with the current map and faster high ground vision unit that gives great support to blink stalkers. also zvz micro also is about maintaining the concave. You can see how zerg keeps readjusting the army position to allow better concaves or punch through a weaker army positioning on one side (see tefel vs sort of yesterday zotac cup), especially more of repositioning when hydras are involved. Yes, but the game is a bit more complicated then that. BL/infestors were only a problem after the Queen buff and yet it was the fungal that was nerfed. Blizzard could have nerfed the Queen back down instead but then we are back to square one. Sure, you can bring back WoL early game balance in PvT if we just removed the MsC. But then we are back to WoL. When you add in a unit/buff a unit in the game, it creates synergy with features/units. And sometimes that synergy could be too much. One great example is hellbat drops. What made hellbats drops so good? 1) Medivac speed boost 2) Medivacs healing hellbats 3) Hellbat early game damage It wasn't only 1 thing that made it strong, it is the combination. For P, it is the offensive capabilities of forward warp gates plus the offensive/scouting capabilities of MsC that is making them strong early game.
Infestor broodlord in PvZ had nothing to do with the queen buff. Nerfing queens back down would have helped in TvZ, but PvZ would have remained a horrific clusterfuck, so nerfing fungal was a better option.
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On March 03 2014 12:28 ETisME wrote:Show nested quote +On March 03 2014 11:36 vthree wrote:On March 03 2014 00:16 ETisME wrote:On March 02 2014 23:57 vthree wrote:On March 02 2014 23:32 ETisME wrote:On March 02 2014 23:26 TurboMaN wrote:On March 02 2014 09:40 plogamer wrote:On March 02 2014 09:30 _Epi_ wrote:
I think one of the core issue is the High Templar Oh but it has no attack. So it's perfectly reasonable that one or two high templars can dent 30+ supply against Terran opponents. It's the Terran's fault for eating storms. Good Terrans never eat storms but even the best protoss cannot dodge emps. Why? Because emp is instant damage. INSTANT. You know it's powerful because it's instant. I don't believe that Can you please provide us with a game of two high level player where the Terran doesn't eat a storms because he dodges every single storm? From what I've seen on Pro streams in many games is that even Teaja, Polt, Innovation, Byun, Marineking get their armies demolished by storms from time to time. No Terran can dodge every storm in a TvP vs an at least equally skilled Protoss. If EMP would have the same delay as storms it wouldn't make a difference because the Protoss army is way slower. However in my opinion the issue is not with the Templar but within the Warpgate design. Protoss players can use it to: - Offensively warp in units - Defensively to defend drops (additional to Photon Overcharge) - Spend a bank of money to instantly rebuild a strong army What is so strong about it: - Build time (faster than normal Gateway build time) - Chronoboost (makes the build time even faster) - Lack of opportunity costs (apart from proxy builds Gateways don't offer any advantage over Warpgates) He is joking Also one reason why storms are hitting more often is because protoss players are getting better, most kespa players are doing a lot of ht flanks, some would do warp prism ht storm and split up their hts. from the list of terrans you put up, only taeja really uses ghost heavy TvP style. It's understandable that storm is extremely good when terran is "forced" to play marine marauder mid game and has smaller room to add ghost tech. Warp in is fine. You have to remember it was never much of a problem back in WoL since gateway army is horrible against a nice bio ball anyway. Terran's heavy marauder ghost viking in WoL was pretty insanely powerful against anything protoss can throw at them. It's just that in hots, it is harder to survive until that stage and even if the terran does get to that stage, protoss can start having tempests out which makes things a lot harder for terran You can't compare HoTS with WoL. Gateway army is great against bio until stim and medivacs are out. In WoL, this forced the Protoss to make at least 5-6 sentries to defend that stim+2 medivac push. But with the MsC, that push is no longer effective because Protoss has MSC, so you see Protoss going with 1-2 sentries for guardian shield and going for early storm and quicker third. So by the time Terran has 6 medivacs to overcome the photon overcharge, Protoss already have storm. That is why Terrans have been having a hard time, the timing window to 'push' back is so small. this is why i said terran is "forced" to play marine marauder. warp gate tech is not the issue, it's the early game snowballing but early game warp gate tech is one of the reasons protoss get the early game snowballing. It is also one of the reasons that PvP needs a 60 second overcharge. Warp ins makes it so that if you get an early army advantage (even 1 or 2 stalkers), it just snowballs because your production can arrive so close to the base. Things like blink all-ins would be a lot weaker if the protoss needed to walk reinforcement stalkers across the map. Of course, it isn't just the warp in tech only. It is more a combination of warp in, MsC and the possibility of oracle play that is forcing the terran into very narrow tech paths/builds. That is true for most OP builds. BL/infestors was a combination of Queens, bigger maps, better creep spread, and then finally BL/infestors themselves. 1-1-1 was combination of banshee harass + marines + tank range + maps + terran wall off not allowing protoss to scout. The fact that blink all in in WoL is largely defendable even with warp gate tech is not because terran player is uber good or protoss player is horrible. It's just that in hots, blink all in is a lot stronger, with the current map and faster high ground vision unit that gives great support to blink stalkers.
MSC vision is such a small part of the problem. The truth is there is no consequence for Protoss fucking up in early game PvT. A Protoss can lose a shitton of Stalkers and be FINE because he has PO and Time Warp to save him back home, which requires zero effort to use. A Protoss can proxy build an Oracle, lose the Oracle without doing damage, lose the Stargate and Pylon, and be perfectly fine, because he's already outexpanded the Terran because the Terran has no ability to punish greed because, say it with me now... PO and Time Warp!
This is what needs to happen:
-PO damage changed from 20 to 5+15 vs. Shields - just as good for PvP, but in PvT/Z there will be consequences for failed Protoss aggression.
-Time Warp is a Cyber Core upgrade that slows friendly units as well as enemies - this spell is as broken as FG back in BL/Infestor, and just as no skill to use. It enables early Stalker pressure and shuts down Terran micro throughout the game. It needs to be tougher to get and tougher to use.
The only thing wrong with early game PvT in WOL was that Protoss had no way of getting aggressive. All that's changed for Terran early game since WOL is Hellbats and Widow Mines, hardly game changers, so removing ALL Protoss HOTS early game changes would give us a perfectly functional, if boring, early game!!! It's that simple. But Protoss aggression is a good thing that should be encouraged, so the MSC can still scout, the MSC can still help early pressure builds, the MSC can still defend even in PvT, the MSC can recall a chunk of army back to base to defend against Medivac drops. Even TW will be around. But pressure builds, Oracle harass, and TW will all have consequences attached now -- if you do them, you better execute perfectly and catch the opponent off guard, or he'll have a huge window of opportunity to counter/get greedy. As it should be.
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LOL you guys should stop whining and just play the game.
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On March 03 2014 13:59 FreeZEternal wrote:
LOL you guys should stop whining and just play the game.
Nobody wants to play a game they don't enjoy is the problem...
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On March 03 2014 14:25 Talack wrote:Show nested quote +On March 03 2014 13:59 FreeZEternal wrote:
LOL you guys should stop whining and just play the game. Nobody wants to play a game they don't enjoy is the problem...
Then they should either stop playing or get better. There are slight imbalances (hardly though) at the highest of levels, however good the average TL player is, is low enough they shouldn't be blaming their losses on balance.
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On March 03 2014 13:22 Talack wrote:Show nested quote +On March 03 2014 12:33 plogamer wrote:On March 03 2014 12:07 vthree wrote:On March 03 2014 06:39 NVRLand wrote:On March 03 2014 03:32 Foxxan wrote:On March 02 2014 22:58 NVRLand wrote:On March 02 2014 10:20 Foxxan wrote:On March 02 2014 09:40 plogamer wrote:On March 02 2014 09:30 _Epi_ wrote:
I think one of the core issue is the High Templar Oh but it has no attack. So it's perfectly reasonable that one or two high templars can dent 30+ supply against Terran opponents. It's the Terran's fault for eating storms. Good Terrans never eat storms but even the best protoss cannot dodge emps. Why? Because emp is instant damage. INSTANT. You know it's powerful because it's instant. Very true Against 15storms, a good terran dont eat a single one The reason terran units needs to be "weaker" is because of the potential of the army. You guys are using marines (50 minerals) and marauders (100/25) in the lategame as your main source of damage output. This sounds weird as fuck in my eyes. A protoss needs colossus (300/200), high templars (50/150) and a meath shield to deal with your army of 50 mineral units. The reason this works is because your units can be worth more the better they are used. An amoving terran will lose horribly because he's using units worth 50 and 100/25, of course they will melt to the amoving protoss units (where the CHEAPEST is 100 minerals, stalkers are 125/50, etc). So the terran army has more "micro" potential to make up for this. In some way it's unfair to the terran player since they will need to "raise" the value of their army with good micro but I guess that's the "payback" for having the cheapest lategame army? I'm a protoss player and I rarely micro harder than my opponent. He's splitting, stutter stepping vikings, etc while I'm amoving, storming, forcefielding and guardian shielding. It's not that hard to maneuver a protoss army tbh. The thing is though that we invest so much more int our army. I have 4 - 5 colossuses (300/200), I have 5 - 6 high templars (50/150), I have a sentry (50/100), I have 7 - 8 stalkers (125/50), the list goes on. The strength in our army is that it's a ball of heavy, expensive units. Do you terrans really think an expensive army like that should need as much micro as an army consisting of marines and marauders which are significantly cheaper? Add to that the fact that the protoss needs to look away from the fight to reinforce. Would you be able to do the same amount of stutter stepping and splitting if you weren't allowed to look at your army while making new units? In the end, I think protoss is an easier race and slightly op in pvt but I'm annoyed by terrans who have the mindset that "Since my army requires more micro, I deserve the win more". Sometimes I feel like the power of protoss lies in making the perfect composition while dealing with pressure. To make the ultimate army (Remember that EVERY time a protoss warps in a unit, he's making a choice. Do I want a zealot? Stalker? Sentry? High templar? Dark templar?) WHILE being able to deflect that double medivac drop, WHILE having a stimmed army which can snipe your nexus in under 10 seconds because you're out of position, etc. I stay away from balance discussions as I don't think anyone here can make an unbiased case. We're all biased. However I wish terrans would stop thinking that because they need to put more apm into the fights, they deserve the win more. That's not how a RTS game works. And you/protoss use mass zealots(100minerals) in midgame/lategame. Isnt that to weird as fuck? What about medivacs. They dont count? Vikings, dont count either? And ghost...dont count. Ok i get it, only marine and marauder count I used the term "as the main source of damage output", that's why I left out ghosts/medivacs/vikings. Yes, massive zealot warp-ins late game is op however, that doesn't change my opinion. Zealots are only viable versus terran once they got charge. If you've ever played protoss and tried to defend early aggression you'll find yourself VERY frustrated when you spend 500 minerals on 5 zealots and they do exactly 0 damage because of the terran micro. Terran doesn't have any melee units (except for SCVs) so they don't get this point. Until charge, a zealot isn't doing damage, it's only tanking damage due to stutter step (of course there are exceptions, but you get the general picture hopefully). On March 03 2014 03:32 Foxxan wrote:
Personally i believe the gameplay would be alot better if toss had micro units to with a more equal macro to terran.
And well, do i need to mention the colossus?
It has been talked to death but the unit is very boring to play against AND to play with imo. Yep, and there's where your opinion differs from many others. Sure, Blizzard could have made the races exactly the same but with different models. There's a reason mirror match-ups are the least liked though. On March 03 2014 03:32 Foxxan wrote:However I wish terrans would stop thinking that because they need to put more apm into the fights, they deserve the win more. That's not how a RTS game works Thanks for this. I didnt know this actually You seem to be the kind of person who isn't interested in a discussion. You probably just want me to say "Sorry, I'll switch to terran so that my wins suddenly count ", right? 'Zealots are only viable versus terran once they got charge. If you've ever played protoss and tried to defend early aggression you'll find yourself VERY frustrated when you spend 500 minerals on 5 zealots and they do exactly 0 damage because of the terran micro. Terran doesn't have any melee units (except for SCVs) so they don't get this point.' Zealots do fine before the terran has stim. They are only 'weak' when in between when stim is done and charge has not finished. As for units not doing much damage because they are kited. It doesn't only apply to melee units. What do you think happens when 2 stalkers catch 6 marines that don't have stim in the middle of the map? Yeah, most of those 6 are dead with maybe only shield damage on the stalkers Photon overcharge? That's some crazy hypothetical that does not exist at any moderate to high level of skill. I cannot believe anyone would even attempt to bring that up as a point with photon overcharge in the game...
Not to mention saying Zealots suck without charge is like saying Marine / Maurader sucks without stim...
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On March 03 2014 14:32 Zenbrez wrote:Show nested quote +On March 03 2014 14:25 Talack wrote:On March 03 2014 13:59 FreeZEternal wrote:
LOL you guys should stop whining and just play the game. Nobody wants to play a game they don't enjoy is the problem... Then they should either stop playing or get better. There are slight imbalances (hardly though) at the highest of levels, however good the average TL player is, is low enough they shouldn't be blaming their losses on balance.
You pretty much described the sc2 scene in it's entirety right there.
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On March 03 2014 13:30 Whitewing wrote:Show nested quote +On March 03 2014 12:45 vthree wrote:On March 03 2014 12:28 ETisME wrote:On March 03 2014 11:36 vthree wrote:On March 03 2014 00:16 ETisME wrote:On March 02 2014 23:57 vthree wrote:On March 02 2014 23:32 ETisME wrote:On March 02 2014 23:26 TurboMaN wrote:On March 02 2014 09:40 plogamer wrote:On March 02 2014 09:30 _Epi_ wrote:
I think one of the core issue is the High Templar Oh but it has no attack. So it's perfectly reasonable that one or two high templars can dent 30+ supply against Terran opponents. It's the Terran's fault for eating storms. Good Terrans never eat storms but even the best protoss cannot dodge emps. Why? Because emp is instant damage. INSTANT. You know it's powerful because it's instant. I don't believe that Can you please provide us with a game of two high level player where the Terran doesn't eat a storms because he dodges every single storm? From what I've seen on Pro streams in many games is that even Teaja, Polt, Innovation, Byun, Marineking get their armies demolished by storms from time to time. No Terran can dodge every storm in a TvP vs an at least equally skilled Protoss. If EMP would have the same delay as storms it wouldn't make a difference because the Protoss army is way slower. However in my opinion the issue is not with the Templar but within the Warpgate design. Protoss players can use it to: - Offensively warp in units - Defensively to defend drops (additional to Photon Overcharge) - Spend a bank of money to instantly rebuild a strong army What is so strong about it: - Build time (faster than normal Gateway build time) - Chronoboost (makes the build time even faster) - Lack of opportunity costs (apart from proxy builds Gateways don't offer any advantage over Warpgates) He is joking Also one reason why storms are hitting more often is because protoss players are getting better, most kespa players are doing a lot of ht flanks, some would do warp prism ht storm and split up their hts. from the list of terrans you put up, only taeja really uses ghost heavy TvP style. It's understandable that storm is extremely good when terran is "forced" to play marine marauder mid game and has smaller room to add ghost tech. Warp in is fine. You have to remember it was never much of a problem back in WoL since gateway army is horrible against a nice bio ball anyway. Terran's heavy marauder ghost viking in WoL was pretty insanely powerful against anything protoss can throw at them. It's just that in hots, it is harder to survive until that stage and even if the terran does get to that stage, protoss can start having tempests out which makes things a lot harder for terran You can't compare HoTS with WoL. Gateway army is great against bio until stim and medivacs are out. In WoL, this forced the Protoss to make at least 5-6 sentries to defend that stim+2 medivac push. But with the MsC, that push is no longer effective because Protoss has MSC, so you see Protoss going with 1-2 sentries for guardian shield and going for early storm and quicker third. So by the time Terran has 6 medivacs to overcome the photon overcharge, Protoss already have storm. That is why Terrans have been having a hard time, the timing window to 'push' back is so small. this is why i said terran is "forced" to play marine marauder. warp gate tech is not the issue, it's the early game snowballing but early game warp gate tech is one of the reasons protoss get the early game snowballing. It is also one of the reasons that PvP needs a 60 second overcharge. Warp ins makes it so that if you get an early army advantage (even 1 or 2 stalkers), it just snowballs because your production can arrive so close to the base. Things like blink all-ins would be a lot weaker if the protoss needed to walk reinforcement stalkers across the map. Of course, it isn't just the warp in tech only. It is more a combination of warp in, MsC and the possibility of oracle play that is forcing the terran into very narrow tech paths/builds. That is true for most OP builds. BL/infestors was a combination of Queens, bigger maps, better creep spread, and then finally BL/infestors themselves. 1-1-1 was combination of banshee harass + marines + tank range + maps + terran wall off not allowing protoss to scout. PvP needs an overcharge is because how coin flipping it is. Warp in tech is a feature, you can't just say it is why protoss is doing great now. in WoL, generally Terran has a great map control when medivacs are out. Warp gate tech only helps in defending them and that part of the game is perfectly balance. (because splitting up protoss army is more complicated than splitting up marine marauder in two locations) The whole blink all in and how protoss is played out is warp in tech. there wouldn't even be blink all in if the stalkers needs to walk all the way from the home base. The fact that blink all in in WoL is largely defendable even with warp gate tech is not because terran player is uber good or protoss player is horrible. It's just that in hots, blink all in is a lot stronger, with the current map and faster high ground vision unit that gives great support to blink stalkers. also zvz micro also is about maintaining the concave. You can see how zerg keeps readjusting the army position to allow better concaves or punch through a weaker army positioning on one side (see tefel vs sort of yesterday zotac cup), especially more of repositioning when hydras are involved. Yes, but the game is a bit more complicated then that. BL/infestors were only a problem after the Queen buff and yet it was the fungal that was nerfed. Blizzard could have nerfed the Queen back down instead but then we are back to square one. Sure, you can bring back WoL early game balance in PvT if we just removed the MsC. But then we are back to WoL. When you add in a unit/buff a unit in the game, it creates synergy with features/units. And sometimes that synergy could be too much. One great example is hellbat drops. What made hellbats drops so good? 1) Medivac speed boost 2) Medivacs healing hellbats 3) Hellbat early game damage It wasn't only 1 thing that made it strong, it is the combination. For P, it is the offensive capabilities of forward warp gates plus the offensive/scouting capabilities of MsC that is making them strong early game. Infestor broodlord in PvZ had nothing to do with the queen buff. Nerfing queens back down would have helped in TvZ, but PvZ would have remained a horrific clusterfuck, so nerfing fungal was a better option.
But Fungal nerf wasn't really that big for PvZ. The biggest affect was mainly that blink stalkers could blink out of fungal but it is not like zealots, sentries, voidrays could dodge out of the new fungals.
And Queen's did affect PvZ (although not as much as TvZ), the additional range made probe scouting vs zerg harder so protoss had to play safer against things like bane bust/roach bust.
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On March 03 2014 14:32 Zenbrez wrote:Show nested quote +On March 03 2014 14:25 Talack wrote:On March 03 2014 13:59 FreeZEternal wrote:
LOL you guys should stop whining and just play the game. Nobody wants to play a game they don't enjoy is the problem... Then they should either stop playing or get better. There are slight imbalances (hardly though) at the highest of levels, however good the average TL player is, is low enough they shouldn't be blaming their losses on balance.
I don't know why this argument gets thrown around so much. Do people just like to repeat things? No one is playing 'perfect' starcraft right now. Even Flash said he can get better and overcome the 'stronger' protoss.
But ideally, there should be relative balance at all levels of play. In practice, this is hard to achieve and when push comes to shove, the higher end/pro balance is more important. But it doesn't mean that balance is not a problem if you can improve your play.
Let's say you are playing soccer, and one side has a smaller goal. Of course, if you are at an amateur level, you CAN improve/raise your level so you can overcome this imbalance and you aren't losing JUST because of that. But it is STILL an imbalance.
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On March 03 2014 13:53 pure.Wasted wrote:Show nested quote +On March 03 2014 12:28 ETisME wrote:On March 03 2014 11:36 vthree wrote:On March 03 2014 00:16 ETisME wrote:On March 02 2014 23:57 vthree wrote:On March 02 2014 23:32 ETisME wrote:On March 02 2014 23:26 TurboMaN wrote:On March 02 2014 09:40 plogamer wrote:On March 02 2014 09:30 _Epi_ wrote:
I think one of the core issue is the High Templar Oh but it has no attack. So it's perfectly reasonable that one or two high templars can dent 30+ supply against Terran opponents. It's the Terran's fault for eating storms. Good Terrans never eat storms but even the best protoss cannot dodge emps. Why? Because emp is instant damage. INSTANT. You know it's powerful because it's instant. I don't believe that Can you please provide us with a game of two high level player where the Terran doesn't eat a storms because he dodges every single storm? From what I've seen on Pro streams in many games is that even Teaja, Polt, Innovation, Byun, Marineking get their armies demolished by storms from time to time. No Terran can dodge every storm in a TvP vs an at least equally skilled Protoss. If EMP would have the same delay as storms it wouldn't make a difference because the Protoss army is way slower. However in my opinion the issue is not with the Templar but within the Warpgate design. Protoss players can use it to: - Offensively warp in units - Defensively to defend drops (additional to Photon Overcharge) - Spend a bank of money to instantly rebuild a strong army What is so strong about it: - Build time (faster than normal Gateway build time) - Chronoboost (makes the build time even faster) - Lack of opportunity costs (apart from proxy builds Gateways don't offer any advantage over Warpgates) He is joking Also one reason why storms are hitting more often is because protoss players are getting better, most kespa players are doing a lot of ht flanks, some would do warp prism ht storm and split up their hts. from the list of terrans you put up, only taeja really uses ghost heavy TvP style. It's understandable that storm is extremely good when terran is "forced" to play marine marauder mid game and has smaller room to add ghost tech. Warp in is fine. You have to remember it was never much of a problem back in WoL since gateway army is horrible against a nice bio ball anyway. Terran's heavy marauder ghost viking in WoL was pretty insanely powerful against anything protoss can throw at them. It's just that in hots, it is harder to survive until that stage and even if the terran does get to that stage, protoss can start having tempests out which makes things a lot harder for terran You can't compare HoTS with WoL. Gateway army is great against bio until stim and medivacs are out. In WoL, this forced the Protoss to make at least 5-6 sentries to defend that stim+2 medivac push. But with the MsC, that push is no longer effective because Protoss has MSC, so you see Protoss going with 1-2 sentries for guardian shield and going for early storm and quicker third. So by the time Terran has 6 medivacs to overcome the photon overcharge, Protoss already have storm. That is why Terrans have been having a hard time, the timing window to 'push' back is so small. this is why i said terran is "forced" to play marine marauder. warp gate tech is not the issue, it's the early game snowballing but early game warp gate tech is one of the reasons protoss get the early game snowballing. It is also one of the reasons that PvP needs a 60 second overcharge. Warp ins makes it so that if you get an early army advantage (even 1 or 2 stalkers), it just snowballs because your production can arrive so close to the base. Things like blink all-ins would be a lot weaker if the protoss needed to walk reinforcement stalkers across the map. Of course, it isn't just the warp in tech only. It is more a combination of warp in, MsC and the possibility of oracle play that is forcing the terran into very narrow tech paths/builds. That is true for most OP builds. BL/infestors was a combination of Queens, bigger maps, better creep spread, and then finally BL/infestors themselves. 1-1-1 was combination of banshee harass + marines + tank range + maps + terran wall off not allowing protoss to scout. The fact that blink all in in WoL is largely defendable even with warp gate tech is not because terran player is uber good or protoss player is horrible. It's just that in hots, blink all in is a lot stronger, with the current map and faster high ground vision unit that gives great support to blink stalkers. MSC vision is such a small part of the problem. The truth is there is no consequence for Protoss fucking up in early game PvT. A Protoss can lose a shitton of Stalkers and be FINE because he has PO and Time Warp to save him back home, which requires zero effort to use. A Protoss can proxy build an Oracle, lose the Oracle without doing damage, lose the Stargate and Pylon, and be perfectly fine, because he's already outexpanded the Terran because the Terran has no ability to punish greed because, say it with me now... PO and Time Warp! This is what needs to happen: -PO damage changed from 20 to 5+15 vs. Shields - just as good for PvP, but in PvT/Z there will be consequences for failed Protoss aggression. -Time Warp is a Cyber Core upgrade that slows friendly units as well as enemies - this spell is as broken as FG back in BL/Infestor, and just as no skill to use. It enables early Stalker pressure and shuts down Terran micro throughout the game. It needs to be tougher to get and tougher to use. The only thing wrong with early game PvT in WOL was that Protoss had no way of getting aggressive. All that's changed for Terran early game since WOL is Hellbats and Widow Mines, hardly game changers, so removing ALL Protoss HOTS early game changes would give us a perfectly functional, if boring, early game!!! It's that simple. But Protoss aggression is a good thing that should be encouraged, so the MSC can still scout, the MSC can still help early pressure builds, the MSC can still defend even in PvT, the MSC can recall a chunk of army back to base to defend against Medivac drops. Even TW will be around. But pressure builds, Oracle harass, and TW will all have consequences attached now -- if you do them, you better execute perfectly and catch the opponent off guard, or he'll have a huge window of opportunity to counter/get greedy. As it should be.
As Terran, we know that shield damage alone isn't enough against Protoss. The change to shield damage might make it look even at first glance, but once shields are removed, Photon Overcharge (as you suggest) now does a pithy 5 damage to a zealot per hit. Or stalker or whatever without shields. I think it should be a higher number, say 10 + 20 vs shields to overcome the fact that the damage gets reduced by a lot once shields are down.
That will stabilize the fuck out of PvP. Skilled Protosses can target-fire shielded units to maximize damage and distinguish themselves.
On March 03 2014 14:55 vthree wrote:Show nested quote +On March 03 2014 14:32 Zenbrez wrote:On March 03 2014 14:25 Talack wrote:On March 03 2014 13:59 FreeZEternal wrote:
LOL you guys should stop whining and just play the game. Nobody wants to play a game they don't enjoy is the problem... Then they should either stop playing or get better. There are slight imbalances (hardly though) at the highest of levels, however good the average TL player is, is low enough they shouldn't be blaming their losses on balance. I don't know why this argument gets thrown around so much. Do people just like to repeat things? No one is playing 'perfect' starcraft right now. Even Flash said he can get better and overcome the 'stronger' protoss. But ideally, there should be relative balance at all levels of play. In practice, this is hard to achieve and when push comes to shove, the higher end/pro balance is more important. But it doesn't mean that balance is not a problem if you can improve your play. Let's say you are playing soccer, and one side has a smaller goal. Of course, if you are at an amateur level, you CAN improve/raise your level so you can overcome this imbalance and you aren't losing JUST because of that. But it is STILL an imbalance.
And I have to 100% agree with this sentiment.
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On March 02 2014 22:26 Karpfen wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2014 07:36 ssxsilver wrote:On February 27 2014 19:18 submarine wrote:On February 27 2014 16:16 ssxsilver wrote:On February 27 2014 14:12 GinDo wrote:On February 27 2014 13:59 FrostedMiniWheats wrote:On February 27 2014 13:50 Havik_ wrote:
The Hydralisk change is bunk. What the hell prompted that!? From what I gathered from when it was first proposed to reduce the gas cost to 25, they want to break up the roach dominance in ZvZ by making the tech transition to roach/hydra easier and more desirable. Also to maybe encourage roach/hydra as a more viable option against bio in ZvT. Personally, I think they're missing the mark and this buff won't make much of a dent in either of those goals. 25 gas hydras are too good, while a 10% buff to dps isn't quite enough. They need a more reasonable middle ground. Maybe they should have considered a mineral reduction from 100 to 75? Or go with what so many pros have been asking for in +1 armor or +10ish HP. I don't understand why this suggestion pops up everywhere. Against which unit exactly would 1 Armor or 10 HP make any difference? This would be the most boring change ever. The hydra is a squishy unit that deals a lot of damage and needs other units in front to tank. That's its role. Buffing its tanking ability would make them a little bit better in direct trades, but would not at all help them to fill their intended role. Zerg has the perfect units to put in front of the Hydra. Right now they just don't do enough damage to be really worth it. I like this purposed change. The next thing i would change if they are still underused after the patch is: -Increase the base range to 6. -Add a hive requirement for the range increase upgrade. Because their DPS has never been an issue. By that same argument, there's no point to combat shields and you might as well give marines +1 attack or something instead. Obviously I'm speaking secondhand when I say it's what a lot of pros want, but those that do give feedback seem to come to the same consensus, the problem occurs once the game gets to the deathball stage. At that point, hydras can't effectively function as AA, because they die instantly to critical mass AOE. Don't say "by that same argument" if you use a different one. You don't put roaches or anything tanky infront of marines. It's not the same thing.
Christ it wasn't a marine vs hydras comp. It was an example of how a durability upgrade (combat shields) can have a positive effect on DPS units (which he argued against). Durability vs things that tend to snowball like AOE. Some people may feel more DPS= more micro. I do not. Agree to disagree. The end.
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On March 03 2014 13:53 pure.Wasted wrote:Show nested quote +On March 03 2014 12:28 ETisME wrote:On March 03 2014 11:36 vthree wrote:On March 03 2014 00:16 ETisME wrote:On March 02 2014 23:57 vthree wrote:On March 02 2014 23:32 ETisME wrote:On March 02 2014 23:26 TurboMaN wrote:On March 02 2014 09:40 plogamer wrote:On March 02 2014 09:30 _Epi_ wrote:
I think one of the core issue is the High Templar Oh but it has no attack. So it's perfectly reasonable that one or two high templars can dent 30+ supply against Terran opponents. It's the Terran's fault for eating storms. Good Terrans never eat storms but even the best protoss cannot dodge emps. Why? Because emp is instant damage. INSTANT. You know it's powerful because it's instant. I don't believe that Can you please provide us with a game of two high level player where the Terran doesn't eat a storms because he dodges every single storm? From what I've seen on Pro streams in many games is that even Teaja, Polt, Innovation, Byun, Marineking get their armies demolished by storms from time to time. No Terran can dodge every storm in a TvP vs an at least equally skilled Protoss. If EMP would have the same delay as storms it wouldn't make a difference because the Protoss army is way slower. However in my opinion the issue is not with the Templar but within the Warpgate design. Protoss players can use it to: - Offensively warp in units - Defensively to defend drops (additional to Photon Overcharge) - Spend a bank of money to instantly rebuild a strong army What is so strong about it: - Build time (faster than normal Gateway build time) - Chronoboost (makes the build time even faster) - Lack of opportunity costs (apart from proxy builds Gateways don't offer any advantage over Warpgates) He is joking Also one reason why storms are hitting more often is because protoss players are getting better, most kespa players are doing a lot of ht flanks, some would do warp prism ht storm and split up their hts. from the list of terrans you put up, only taeja really uses ghost heavy TvP style. It's understandable that storm is extremely good when terran is "forced" to play marine marauder mid game and has smaller room to add ghost tech. Warp in is fine. You have to remember it was never much of a problem back in WoL since gateway army is horrible against a nice bio ball anyway. Terran's heavy marauder ghost viking in WoL was pretty insanely powerful against anything protoss can throw at them. It's just that in hots, it is harder to survive until that stage and even if the terran does get to that stage, protoss can start having tempests out which makes things a lot harder for terran You can't compare HoTS with WoL. Gateway army is great against bio until stim and medivacs are out. In WoL, this forced the Protoss to make at least 5-6 sentries to defend that stim+2 medivac push. But with the MsC, that push is no longer effective because Protoss has MSC, so you see Protoss going with 1-2 sentries for guardian shield and going for early storm and quicker third. So by the time Terran has 6 medivacs to overcome the photon overcharge, Protoss already have storm. That is why Terrans have been having a hard time, the timing window to 'push' back is so small. this is why i said terran is "forced" to play marine marauder. warp gate tech is not the issue, it's the early game snowballing but early game warp gate tech is one of the reasons protoss get the early game snowballing. It is also one of the reasons that PvP needs a 60 second overcharge. Warp ins makes it so that if you get an early army advantage (even 1 or 2 stalkers), it just snowballs because your production can arrive so close to the base. Things like blink all-ins would be a lot weaker if the protoss needed to walk reinforcement stalkers across the map. Of course, it isn't just the warp in tech only. It is more a combination of warp in, MsC and the possibility of oracle play that is forcing the terran into very narrow tech paths/builds. That is true for most OP builds. BL/infestors was a combination of Queens, bigger maps, better creep spread, and then finally BL/infestors themselves. 1-1-1 was combination of banshee harass + marines + tank range + maps + terran wall off not allowing protoss to scout. The fact that blink all in in WoL is largely defendable even with warp gate tech is not because terran player is uber good or protoss player is horrible. It's just that in hots, blink all in is a lot stronger, with the current map and faster high ground vision unit that gives great support to blink stalkers. MSC vision is such a small part of the problem. The truth is there is no consequence for Protoss fucking up in early game PvT. A Protoss can lose a shitton of Stalkers and be FINE because he has PO and Time Warp to save him back home, which requires zero effort to use. A Protoss can proxy build an Oracle, lose the Oracle without doing damage, lose the Stargate and Pylon, and be perfectly fine, because he's already outexpanded the Terran because the Terran has no ability to punish greed because, say it with me now... PO and Time Warp! This is what needs to happen: -PO damage changed from 20 to 5+15 vs. Shields - just as good for PvP, but in PvT/Z there will be consequences for failed Protoss aggression. -Time Warp is a Cyber Core upgrade that slows friendly units as well as enemies - this spell is as broken as FG back in BL/Infestor, and just as no skill to use. It enables early Stalker pressure and shuts down Terran micro throughout the game. It needs to be tougher to get and tougher to use. The only thing wrong with early game PvT in WOL was that Protoss had no way of getting aggressive. All that's changed for Terran early game since WOL is Hellbats and Widow Mines, hardly game changers, so removing ALL Protoss HOTS early game changes would give us a perfectly functional, if boring, early game!!! It's that simple. But Protoss aggression is a good thing that should be encouraged, so the MSC can still scout, the MSC can still help early pressure builds, the MSC can still defend even in PvT, the MSC can recall a chunk of army back to base to defend against Medivac drops. Even TW will be around. But pressure builds, Oracle harass, and TW will all have consequences attached now -- if you do them, you better execute perfectly and catch the opponent off guard, or he'll have a huge window of opportunity to counter/get greedy. As it should be.
Half your post is wrong.
MSC vision is the most important part of early blink builds as it is available earlier than observers while being 75 gas cheaper. This is also the reason it's not feasible for Terran to proxy anything. With the MSC Protoss has an additional unit to scout half the map with on top of providing PO. I don't know what you consider a shitton of stalkers but let me assure you, you cannot lose a bunch of production cycles for free and be fine. You may take a bad fight and transition out of the attack because your stalkers have blink and it's still their strong period in the game.
And your PO change suggestion would just neuter the spell. It would have ⅔ of sentry DPS against non-shield. This doesn't defend anything in any matchup.
Maybe Terran should get a unit built from the OC. I mean Protoss has MSC, Zerg can build queens. Only Terran can't build a unit from their main building. I just have no idea what it should be capable of.
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On March 03 2014 14:55 vthree wrote:Show nested quote +On March 03 2014 14:32 Zenbrez wrote:On March 03 2014 14:25 Talack wrote:On March 03 2014 13:59 FreeZEternal wrote:
LOL you guys should stop whining and just play the game. Nobody wants to play a game they don't enjoy is the problem... Then they should either stop playing or get better. There are slight imbalances (hardly though) at the highest of levels, however good the average TL player is, is low enough they shouldn't be blaming their losses on balance. I don't know why this argument gets thrown around so much. Do people just like to repeat things? No one is playing 'perfect' starcraft right now. Even Flash said he can get better and overcome the 'stronger' protoss. But ideally, there should be relative balance at all levels of play. In practice, this is hard to achieve and when push comes to shove, the higher end/pro balance is more important. But it doesn't mean that balance is not a problem if you can improve your play. Let's say you are playing soccer, and one side has a smaller goal. Of course, if you are at an amateur level, you CAN improve/raise your level so you can overcome this imbalance and you aren't losing JUST because of that. But it is STILL an imbalance.
the only thing that matters is the pro level.
and i dont get why people talk about imbalance in lower levels.
on lower levels you can choose what builds you do and just because one build is easier to execute than another build doesnt mean that it is OP or whatever.
... i actually dont know what imbalance in lower levels means.
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United Kingdom20285 Posts
-PO damage changed from 20 to 5+15 vs. Shields
Goes from 8 hits to kill a zealot to 28 lol
Good fire support if you micro individual shots against protoss units but basically worthless for everything else, it would be niche at best instead of fulfilling a core *cough* role
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Russian Federation262 Posts
Maybe just close threads like this?
To stop all this stupid whining.
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EPT
