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On March 03 2014 15:46 75 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 03 2014 14:55 vthree wrote:On March 03 2014 14:32 Zenbrez wrote:On March 03 2014 14:25 Talack wrote:On March 03 2014 13:59 FreeZEternal wrote:
LOL you guys should stop whining and just play the game. Nobody wants to play a game they don't enjoy is the problem... Then they should either stop playing or get better. There are slight imbalances (hardly though) at the highest of levels, however good the average TL player is, is low enough they shouldn't be blaming their losses on balance. I don't know why this argument gets thrown around so much. Do people just like to repeat things? No one is playing 'perfect' starcraft right now. Even Flash said he can get better and overcome the 'stronger' protoss. But ideally, there should be relative balance at all levels of play. In practice, this is hard to achieve and when push comes to shove, the higher end/pro balance is more important. But it doesn't mean that balance is not a problem if you can improve your play. Let's say you are playing soccer, and one side has a smaller goal. Of course, if you are at an amateur level, you CAN improve/raise your level so you can overcome this imbalance and you aren't losing JUST because of that. But it is STILL an imbalance. the only thing that matters is the pro level. and i dont get why people talk about imbalance in lower levels. on lower levels you can choose what builds you do and just because one build is easier to execute than another build doesnt mean that it is OP or whatever. ... i actually dont know what imbalance in lower levels means.
That is such a narrow view. Yes, pro level matters more. But what 'defines' pro level? It is pretty obvious that 'pro' level now is very different from 'pro' level during early WoL. Does that mean we never should have tweaked WoL because the 'pro' level wasn't high enough?
Why do you think the WM was changed? At the 'pro' level, zergs shouldn't take game ending damage from WMs. I don't think anyone is trying to say all the builds should be the exact same in execution. But there shouldn't be a huge difference if possible. Or things like 11-11 won't have been nerfed because with perfect micro, 11-11 was definitely holdable. Things like margin of error are important.
Not sure why people think 'pros' play with 0 errors and mistakes.
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On March 03 2014 15:46 75 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 03 2014 14:55 vthree wrote:On March 03 2014 14:32 Zenbrez wrote:On March 03 2014 14:25 Talack wrote:On March 03 2014 13:59 FreeZEternal wrote:
LOL you guys should stop whining and just play the game. Nobody wants to play a game they don't enjoy is the problem... Then they should either stop playing or get better. There are slight imbalances (hardly though) at the highest of levels, however good the average TL player is, is low enough they shouldn't be blaming their losses on balance. I don't know why this argument gets thrown around so much. Do people just like to repeat things? No one is playing 'perfect' starcraft right now. Even Flash said he can get better and overcome the 'stronger' protoss. But ideally, there should be relative balance at all levels of play. In practice, this is hard to achieve and when push comes to shove, the higher end/pro balance is more important. But it doesn't mean that balance is not a problem if you can improve your play. Let's say you are playing soccer, and one side has a smaller goal. Of course, if you are at an amateur level, you CAN improve/raise your level so you can overcome this imbalance and you aren't losing JUST because of that. But it is STILL an imbalance. the only thing that matters is the pro level. and i dont get why people talk about imbalance in lower levels. on lower levels you can choose what builds you do and just because one build is easier to execute than another build doesnt mean that it is OP or whatever. ... i actually dont know what imbalance in lower levels means.
Ease of execution absolutely needs to be factored into balance
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On March 03 2014 15:29 Ravomat wrote:Show nested quote +On March 03 2014 13:53 pure.Wasted wrote:On March 03 2014 12:28 ETisME wrote:On March 03 2014 11:36 vthree wrote:On March 03 2014 00:16 ETisME wrote:On March 02 2014 23:57 vthree wrote:On March 02 2014 23:32 ETisME wrote:On March 02 2014 23:26 TurboMaN wrote:On March 02 2014 09:40 plogamer wrote:On March 02 2014 09:30 _Epi_ wrote:
I think one of the core issue is the High Templar Oh but it has no attack. So it's perfectly reasonable that one or two high templars can dent 30+ supply against Terran opponents. It's the Terran's fault for eating storms. Good Terrans never eat storms but even the best protoss cannot dodge emps. Why? Because emp is instant damage. INSTANT. You know it's powerful because it's instant. I don't believe that  Can you please provide us with a game of two high level player where the Terran doesn't eat a storms because he dodges every single storm? From what I've seen on Pro streams in many games is that even Teaja, Polt, Innovation, Byun, Marineking get their armies demolished by storms from time to time. No Terran can dodge every storm in a TvP vs an at least equally skilled Protoss. If EMP would have the same delay as storms it wouldn't make a difference because the Protoss army is way slower. However in my opinion the issue is not with the Templar but within the Warpgate design. Protoss players can use it to: - Offensively warp in units - Defensively to defend drops (additional to Photon Overcharge) - Spend a bank of money to instantly rebuild a strong army What is so strong about it: - Build time (faster than normal Gateway build time) - Chronoboost (makes the build time even faster) - Lack of opportunity costs (apart from proxy builds Gateways don't offer any advantage over Warpgates) He is joking  Also one reason why storms are hitting more often is because protoss players are getting better, most kespa players are doing a lot of ht flanks, some would do warp prism ht storm and split up their hts. from the list of terrans you put up, only taeja really uses ghost heavy TvP style. It's understandable that storm is extremely good when terran is "forced" to play marine marauder mid game and has smaller room to add ghost tech. Warp in is fine. You have to remember it was never much of a problem back in WoL since gateway army is horrible against a nice bio ball anyway. Terran's heavy marauder ghost viking in WoL was pretty insanely powerful against anything protoss can throw at them. It's just that in hots, it is harder to survive until that stage and even if the terran does get to that stage, protoss can start having tempests out which makes things a lot harder for terran You can't compare HoTS with WoL. Gateway army is great against bio until stim and medivacs are out. In WoL, this forced the Protoss to make at least 5-6 sentries to defend that stim+2 medivac push. But with the MsC, that push is no longer effective because Protoss has MSC, so you see Protoss going with 1-2 sentries for guardian shield and going for early storm and quicker third. So by the time Terran has 6 medivacs to overcome the photon overcharge, Protoss already have storm. That is why Terrans have been having a hard time, the timing window to 'push' back is so small. this is why i said terran is "forced" to play marine marauder. warp gate tech is not the issue, it's the early game snowballing but early game warp gate tech is one of the reasons protoss get the early game snowballing. It is also one of the reasons that PvP needs a 60 second overcharge. Warp ins makes it so that if you get an early army advantage (even 1 or 2 stalkers), it just snowballs because your production can arrive so close to the base. Things like blink all-ins would be a lot weaker if the protoss needed to walk reinforcement stalkers across the map. Of course, it isn't just the warp in tech only. It is more a combination of warp in, MsC and the possibility of oracle play that is forcing the terran into very narrow tech paths/builds. That is true for most OP builds. BL/infestors was a combination of Queens, bigger maps, better creep spread, and then finally BL/infestors themselves. 1-1-1 was combination of banshee harass + marines + tank range + maps + terran wall off not allowing protoss to scout. The fact that blink all in in WoL is largely defendable even with warp gate tech is not because terran player is uber good or protoss player is horrible. It's just that in hots, blink all in is a lot stronger, with the current map and faster high ground vision unit that gives great support to blink stalkers. MSC vision is such a small part of the problem. The truth is there is no consequence for Protoss fucking up in early game PvT. A Protoss can lose a shitton of Stalkers and be FINE because he has PO and Time Warp to save him back home, which requires zero effort to use. A Protoss can proxy build an Oracle, lose the Oracle without doing damage, lose the Stargate and Pylon, and be perfectly fine, because he's already outexpanded the Terran because the Terran has no ability to punish greed because, say it with me now... PO and Time Warp! This is what needs to happen: -PO damage changed from 20 to 5+15 vs. Shields - just as good for PvP, but in PvT/Z there will be consequences for failed Protoss aggression. -Time Warp is a Cyber Core upgrade that slows friendly units as well as enemies - this spell is as broken as FG back in BL/Infestor, and just as no skill to use. It enables early Stalker pressure and shuts down Terran micro throughout the game. It needs to be tougher to get and tougher to use. The only thing wrong with early game PvT in WOL was that Protoss had no way of getting aggressive. All that's changed for Terran early game since WOL is Hellbats and Widow Mines, hardly game changers, so removing ALL Protoss HOTS early game changes would give us a perfectly functional, if boring, early game!!! It's that simple. But Protoss aggression is a good thing that should be encouraged, so the MSC can still scout, the MSC can still help early pressure builds, the MSC can still defend even in PvT, the MSC can recall a chunk of army back to base to defend against Medivac drops. Even TW will be around. But pressure builds, Oracle harass, and TW will all have consequences attached now -- if you do them, you better execute perfectly and catch the opponent off guard, or he'll have a huge window of opportunity to counter/get greedy. As it should be. Half your post is wrong. MSC vision is the most important part of early blink builds as it is available earlier than observers while being 75 gas cheaper. This is also the reason it's not feasible for Terran to proxy anything. With the MSC Protoss has an additional unit to scout half the map with on top of providing PO. I don't know what you consider a shitton of stalkers but let me assure you, you cannot lose a bunch of production cycles for free and be fine. You may take a bad fight and transition out of the attack because your stalkers have blink and it's still their strong period in the game.
Protoss can't lose their Stalkers for free and be fine, but they can lose their Stalkers in a bad trade and be fine. Take game 3 from Polt vs. Classic at IEM, on Yeonsu. Classic loses 16 Probes to a runby, then loses over 20 Stalkers to a dedicated "all in" pressure build while killing nothing but 2/3 of Polt's army... and then actually does OK against Polt's counter attacks! Polt was in a dominant position after the Stalkers died, but if those 16 Probes hadn't died, there's absolutely no way that result happens. If he hadn't outsmarted and outmulti-tasked Classic, Classic would have come out of his failed pressure build on even footing.
And your PO change suggestion would just neuter the spell. It would have ⅔ of sentry DPS against non-shield. This doesn't defend anything in any matchup.
First of all, it defends just fine in PvP because I didn't change it for PvP, which is where every Protoss says it's needed. It's not needed in PvT, because Protoss were fine at holding Terran early aggression in late WOL, and Terran early aggression hasn't improved much but Protoss scouting, harassment, pressure, and defense has all improved even if we neuter PO. There's no reason why Protoss need it, so yes, I'm neutering it, because I want to see bad Protoss plays get punished by instantly dying like they did back in WOL. What was not fine about Protoss early game in WOL was limited ability to scout (fixed by existence of MSC), limited ability to harass/do pressure builds (fixed by MSC/Oracle/Blink Stalkers), and reliance on Obs (fixed by MSC/Halluc/Oracle). Neutering PO and TW doesn't change ANY of those things.
So I don't see how half of my post is wrong.
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On March 03 2014 17:16 pure.Wasted wrote:Show nested quote +On March 03 2014 15:29 Ravomat wrote:On March 03 2014 13:53 pure.Wasted wrote:On March 03 2014 12:28 ETisME wrote:On March 03 2014 11:36 vthree wrote:On March 03 2014 00:16 ETisME wrote:On March 02 2014 23:57 vthree wrote:On March 02 2014 23:32 ETisME wrote:On March 02 2014 23:26 TurboMaN wrote:On March 02 2014 09:40 plogamer wrote:
[quote]
Oh but it has no attack. So it's perfectly reasonable that one or two high templars can dent 30+ supply against Terran opponents. It's the Terran's fault for eating storms. Good Terrans never eat storms but even the best protoss cannot dodge emps. Why? Because emp is instant damage. INSTANT. You know it's powerful because it's instant. I don't believe that Can you please provide us with a game of two high level player where the Terran doesn't eat a storms because he dodges every single storm? From what I've seen on Pro streams in many games is that even Teaja, Polt, Innovation, Byun, Marineking get their armies demolished by storms from time to time. No Terran can dodge every storm in a TvP vs an at least equally skilled Protoss. If EMP would have the same delay as storms it wouldn't make a difference because the Protoss army is way slower. However in my opinion the issue is not with the Templar but within the Warpgate design. Protoss players can use it to: - Offensively warp in units - Defensively to defend drops (additional to Photon Overcharge) - Spend a bank of money to instantly rebuild a strong army What is so strong about it: - Build time (faster than normal Gateway build time) - Chronoboost (makes the build time even faster) - Lack of opportunity costs (apart from proxy builds Gateways don't offer any advantage over Warpgates) He is joking Also one reason why storms are hitting more often is because protoss players are getting better, most kespa players are doing a lot of ht flanks, some would do warp prism ht storm and split up their hts. from the list of terrans you put up, only taeja really uses ghost heavy TvP style. It's understandable that storm is extremely good when terran is "forced" to play marine marauder mid game and has smaller room to add ghost tech. Warp in is fine. You have to remember it was never much of a problem back in WoL since gateway army is horrible against a nice bio ball anyway. Terran's heavy marauder ghost viking in WoL was pretty insanely powerful against anything protoss can throw at them. It's just that in hots, it is harder to survive until that stage and even if the terran does get to that stage, protoss can start having tempests out which makes things a lot harder for terran You can't compare HoTS with WoL. Gateway army is great against bio until stim and medivacs are out. In WoL, this forced the Protoss to make at least 5-6 sentries to defend that stim+2 medivac push. But with the MsC, that push is no longer effective because Protoss has MSC, so you see Protoss going with 1-2 sentries for guardian shield and going for early storm and quicker third. So by the time Terran has 6 medivacs to overcome the photon overcharge, Protoss already have storm. That is why Terrans have been having a hard time, the timing window to 'push' back is so small. this is why i said terran is "forced" to play marine marauder. warp gate tech is not the issue, it's the early game snowballing but early game warp gate tech is one of the reasons protoss get the early game snowballing. It is also one of the reasons that PvP needs a 60 second overcharge. Warp ins makes it so that if you get an early army advantage (even 1 or 2 stalkers), it just snowballs because your production can arrive so close to the base. Things like blink all-ins would be a lot weaker if the protoss needed to walk reinforcement stalkers across the map. Of course, it isn't just the warp in tech only. It is more a combination of warp in, MsC and the possibility of oracle play that is forcing the terran into very narrow tech paths/builds. That is true for most OP builds. BL/infestors was a combination of Queens, bigger maps, better creep spread, and then finally BL/infestors themselves. 1-1-1 was combination of banshee harass + marines + tank range + maps + terran wall off not allowing protoss to scout. The fact that blink all in in WoL is largely defendable even with warp gate tech is not because terran player is uber good or protoss player is horrible. It's just that in hots, blink all in is a lot stronger, with the current map and faster high ground vision unit that gives great support to blink stalkers. MSC vision is such a small part of the problem. The truth is there is no consequence for Protoss fucking up in early game PvT. A Protoss can lose a shitton of Stalkers and be FINE because he has PO and Time Warp to save him back home, which requires zero effort to use. A Protoss can proxy build an Oracle, lose the Oracle without doing damage, lose the Stargate and Pylon, and be perfectly fine, because he's already outexpanded the Terran because the Terran has no ability to punish greed because, say it with me now... PO and Time Warp! This is what needs to happen: -PO damage changed from 20 to 5+15 vs. Shields - just as good for PvP, but in PvT/Z there will be consequences for failed Protoss aggression. -Time Warp is a Cyber Core upgrade that slows friendly units as well as enemies - this spell is as broken as FG back in BL/Infestor, and just as no skill to use. It enables early Stalker pressure and shuts down Terran micro throughout the game. It needs to be tougher to get and tougher to use. The only thing wrong with early game PvT in WOL was that Protoss had no way of getting aggressive. All that's changed for Terran early game since WOL is Hellbats and Widow Mines, hardly game changers, so removing ALL Protoss HOTS early game changes would give us a perfectly functional, if boring, early game!!! It's that simple. But Protoss aggression is a good thing that should be encouraged, so the MSC can still scout, the MSC can still help early pressure builds, the MSC can still defend even in PvT, the MSC can recall a chunk of army back to base to defend against Medivac drops. Even TW will be around. But pressure builds, Oracle harass, and TW will all have consequences attached now -- if you do them, you better execute perfectly and catch the opponent off guard, or he'll have a huge window of opportunity to counter/get greedy. As it should be. Half your post is wrong. MSC vision is the most important part of early blink builds as it is available earlier than observers while being 75 gas cheaper. This is also the reason it's not feasible for Terran to proxy anything. With the MSC Protoss has an additional unit to scout half the map with on top of providing PO. I don't know what you consider a shitton of stalkers but let me assure you, you cannot lose a bunch of production cycles for free and be fine. You may take a bad fight and transition out of the attack because your stalkers have blink and it's still their strong period in the game. Protoss can't lose their Stalkers for free and be fine, but they can lose their Stalkers in a bad trade and be fine. Take game 3 from Polt vs. Classic at IEM, on Yeonsu. Classic loses 16 Probes to a runby, then loses over 20 Stalkers to a dedicated "all in" pressure build while killing nothing but 2/3 of Polt's army... and then actually does OK against Polt's counter attacks! Polt was in a dominant position after the Stalkers died, but if those 16 Probes hadn't died, there's absolutely no way that result happens. If he hadn't outsmarted and outmulti-tasked Classic, Classic would have come out of his failed pressure build on even footing.
Dude, you need to think more about what you're saying. What the fuck is "dedicated "all in" pressure"? It cannot be both. If I didn't know how the game played out I'd have no idea what you're talking about. You just throw around terms like all-in and pressure build and it makes no sense whatsoever.
That being said Classic didn't do OK against Polts counterattack. He barely did anything. He barely could do anything. Polt stims, mindlessly chases 3 stalkers but only gets 1+1 zealot, stims again and now he's trapped in a corner by zealots who just now get charge. This attack was horribly bad.
The rest of this paragraph doesn't make any sense to me. If those 16 probes didn't die then either Polt didn't trade 10 army supply for them or Classic finds that group and kills it. Either way the outcome would have been obviously different. The next part is just weird. What is wrong with coming out even after applying pressure? I'd think coming out even is actually a fail, still fine but a fail nevertheless, since the whole point of pressuring is getting ahead. That last sentence is pure speculation and not worthy of any discussion.
Show nested quote +And your PO change suggestion would just neuter the spell. It would have ⅔ of sentry DPS against non-shield. This doesn't defend anything in any matchup. First of all, it defends just fine in PvP because I didn't change it for PvP, which is where every Protoss says it's needed. It's not needed in PvT, because Protoss were fine at holding Terran early aggression in late WOL, and Terran early aggression hasn't improved much but Protoss scouting, harassment, pressure, and defense has all improved even if we neuter PO. There's no reason why Protoss need it, so yes, I'm neutering it, because I want to see bad Protoss plays get punished by instantly dying like they did back in WOL. What was not fine about Protoss early game in WOL was limited ability to scout (fixed by existence of MSC), limited ability to harass/do pressure builds (fixed by MSC/Oracle/Blink Stalkers), and reliance on Obs (fixed by MSC/Halluc/Oracle). Neutering PO and TW doesn't change ANY of those things. So I don't see how half of my post is wrong.
Now we're talking. I do agree bad players should instantly lose for a single mistake. That certainly makes for a better game.
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First of all, it defends just fine in PvP because I didn't change it for PvP
+Shield damage means that it removes Shield, not extra damage to shielded units. Which means it will do the same damage to a Zealot untill it loses it's shield, then it does 5 damage.
Now we're talking. I do agree bad players should instantly lose for a single mistake. That certainly makes for a better game.
How big of an error are we talking Oo, we want to be able to see comeback games, actually most of the time.
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It seems a bit odd that mine splash is higher on protoss units than the friendly fire is on terran units.
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On March 03 2014 18:52 Ravomat wrote:Show nested quote +On March 03 2014 17:16 pure.Wasted wrote:On March 03 2014 15:29 Ravomat wrote:On March 03 2014 13:53 pure.Wasted wrote:On March 03 2014 12:28 ETisME wrote:On March 03 2014 11:36 vthree wrote:On March 03 2014 00:16 ETisME wrote:On March 02 2014 23:57 vthree wrote:On March 02 2014 23:32 ETisME wrote:On March 02 2014 23:26 TurboMaN wrote:[quote] I don't believe that Can you please provide us with a game of two high level player where the Terran doesn't eat a storms because he dodges every single storm? From what I've seen on Pro streams in many games is that even Teaja, Polt, Innovation, Byun, Marineking get their armies demolished by storms from time to time. No Terran can dodge every storm in a TvP vs an at least equally skilled Protoss. If EMP would have the same delay as storms it wouldn't make a difference because the Protoss army is way slower. However in my opinion the issue is not with the Templar but within the Warpgate design. Protoss players can use it to: - Offensively warp in units - Defensively to defend drops (additional to Photon Overcharge) - Spend a bank of money to instantly rebuild a strong army What is so strong about it: - Build time (faster than normal Gateway build time) - Chronoboost (makes the build time even faster) - Lack of opportunity costs (apart from proxy builds Gateways don't offer any advantage over Warpgates) He is joking Also one reason why storms are hitting more often is because protoss players are getting better, most kespa players are doing a lot of ht flanks, some would do warp prism ht storm and split up their hts. from the list of terrans you put up, only taeja really uses ghost heavy TvP style. It's understandable that storm is extremely good when terran is "forced" to play marine marauder mid game and has smaller room to add ghost tech. Warp in is fine. You have to remember it was never much of a problem back in WoL since gateway army is horrible against a nice bio ball anyway. Terran's heavy marauder ghost viking in WoL was pretty insanely powerful against anything protoss can throw at them. It's just that in hots, it is harder to survive until that stage and even if the terran does get to that stage, protoss can start having tempests out which makes things a lot harder for terran You can't compare HoTS with WoL. Gateway army is great against bio until stim and medivacs are out. In WoL, this forced the Protoss to make at least 5-6 sentries to defend that stim+2 medivac push. But with the MsC, that push is no longer effective because Protoss has MSC, so you see Protoss going with 1-2 sentries for guardian shield and going for early storm and quicker third. So by the time Terran has 6 medivacs to overcome the photon overcharge, Protoss already have storm. That is why Terrans have been having a hard time, the timing window to 'push' back is so small. this is why i said terran is "forced" to play marine marauder. warp gate tech is not the issue, it's the early game snowballing but early game warp gate tech is one of the reasons protoss get the early game snowballing. It is also one of the reasons that PvP needs a 60 second overcharge. Warp ins makes it so that if you get an early army advantage (even 1 or 2 stalkers), it just snowballs because your production can arrive so close to the base. Things like blink all-ins would be a lot weaker if the protoss needed to walk reinforcement stalkers across the map. Of course, it isn't just the warp in tech only. It is more a combination of warp in, MsC and the possibility of oracle play that is forcing the terran into very narrow tech paths/builds. That is true for most OP builds. BL/infestors was a combination of Queens, bigger maps, better creep spread, and then finally BL/infestors themselves. 1-1-1 was combination of banshee harass + marines + tank range + maps + terran wall off not allowing protoss to scout. The fact that blink all in in WoL is largely defendable even with warp gate tech is not because terran player is uber good or protoss player is horrible. It's just that in hots, blink all in is a lot stronger, with the current map and faster high ground vision unit that gives great support to blink stalkers. MSC vision is such a small part of the problem. The truth is there is no consequence for Protoss fucking up in early game PvT. A Protoss can lose a shitton of Stalkers and be FINE because he has PO and Time Warp to save him back home, which requires zero effort to use. A Protoss can proxy build an Oracle, lose the Oracle without doing damage, lose the Stargate and Pylon, and be perfectly fine, because he's already outexpanded the Terran because the Terran has no ability to punish greed because, say it with me now... PO and Time Warp! This is what needs to happen: -PO damage changed from 20 to 5+15 vs. Shields - just as good for PvP, but in PvT/Z there will be consequences for failed Protoss aggression. -Time Warp is a Cyber Core upgrade that slows friendly units as well as enemies - this spell is as broken as FG back in BL/Infestor, and just as no skill to use. It enables early Stalker pressure and shuts down Terran micro throughout the game. It needs to be tougher to get and tougher to use. The only thing wrong with early game PvT in WOL was that Protoss had no way of getting aggressive. All that's changed for Terran early game since WOL is Hellbats and Widow Mines, hardly game changers, so removing ALL Protoss HOTS early game changes would give us a perfectly functional, if boring, early game!!! It's that simple. But Protoss aggression is a good thing that should be encouraged, so the MSC can still scout, the MSC can still help early pressure builds, the MSC can still defend even in PvT, the MSC can recall a chunk of army back to base to defend against Medivac drops. Even TW will be around. But pressure builds, Oracle harass, and TW will all have consequences attached now -- if you do them, you better execute perfectly and catch the opponent off guard, or he'll have a huge window of opportunity to counter/get greedy. As it should be. Half your post is wrong. MSC vision is the most important part of early blink builds as it is available earlier than observers while being 75 gas cheaper. This is also the reason it's not feasible for Terran to proxy anything. With the MSC Protoss has an additional unit to scout half the map with on top of providing PO. I don't know what you consider a shitton of stalkers but let me assure you, you cannot lose a bunch of production cycles for free and be fine. You may take a bad fight and transition out of the attack because your stalkers have blink and it's still their strong period in the game. Protoss can't lose their Stalkers for free and be fine, but they can lose their Stalkers in a bad trade and be fine. Take game 3 from Polt vs. Classic at IEM, on Yeonsu. Classic loses 16 Probes to a runby, then loses over 20 Stalkers to a dedicated "all in" pressure build while killing nothing but 2/3 of Polt's army... and then actually does OK against Polt's counter attacks! Polt was in a dominant position after the Stalkers died, but if those 16 Probes hadn't died, there's absolutely no way that result happens. If he hadn't outsmarted and outmulti-tasked Classic, Classic would have come out of his failed pressure build on even footing. Dude, you need to think more about what you're saying. What the fuck is "dedicated "all in" pressure"? It cannot be both. If I didn't know how the game played out I'd have no idea what you're talking about. You just throw around terms like all-in and pressure build and it makes no sense whatsoever.
People (including me) incorrectly call early Blink Stalker pressure an "all in" when it has long, long since stopped being one. It's a heavy pressure build that has the game-ending potential of an all-in, but none of the commitment. Sorry if my flip-flop terms confused you.
The next part is just weird. What is wrong with coming out even after applying pressure? I'd think coming out even is actually a fail, still fine but a fail nevertheless, since the whole point of pressuring is getting ahead.
What's wrong is the ratio of risk/reward. If something has high risk, it should have a high reward. If something has low risk, it should have a low reward. This is very common sense stuff. If there is very little risk to applying heavy pressure with Blink Stalkers while expanding and teching to Templars at the same time, then it should not have the ability to end games at the drop of a hat.
That last sentence is pure speculation and not worthy of any discussion.
It's speculation that having 16 workers mining for over 5 minutes would have seriously helped Classic defend at the 14 minute mark? You cannot be serious.
On March 03 2014 19:33 ejozl wrote:Show nested quote +First of all, it defends just fine in PvP because I didn't change it for PvP +Shield damage means that it removes Shield, not extra damage to shielded units. Which means it will do the same damage to a Zealot untill it loses it's shield, then it does 5 damage.
Then have it deal 5+65 shield damage -- that would give the Nexus a lot more power at the beginning of engagements, and units killed early will snowball in the defense's favor.
How big of an error are we talking Oo, we want to be able to see comeback games, actually most of the time.
We want to be able to see worthy players make comebacks.
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Anyone noticed if burrowed widow mines are harder to see after the patch or is it just me?
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Yea, well, the game certainly needs tweaks. Your suggestion is still not good at all.
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As a gold leauge player I dont give to rats if its an even skill match (being balanced). Putting me against other gold leauge players is balancing the game for lower leauge players. So if that means it's easier to be gold as one race then another thats fine. You choose your race, change if you dont like it. It's for the top 50 odd players that play the game because I dont want to watch one race dominate no matter what it is, or who I go for.
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On March 03 2014 17:16 pure.Wasted wrote:
First of all, it defends just fine in PvP because I didn't change it for PvP, which is where every Protoss says it's needed. It's not needed in PvT, because Protoss were fine at holding Terran early aggression in late WOL, and Terran early aggression hasn't improved much but Protoss scouting, harassment, pressure, and defense has all improved even if we neuter PO. There's no reason why Protoss need it, so yes, I'm neutering it, because I want to see bad Protoss plays get punished by instantly dying like they did back in WOL. What was not fine about Protoss early game in WOL was limited ability to scout (fixed by existence of MSC), limited ability to harass/do pressure builds (fixed by MSC/Oracle/Blink Stalkers), and reliance on Obs (fixed by MSC/Halluc/Oracle). Neutering PO and TW doesn't change ANY of those things.
You're forgetting a rather important difference here. In WOL, Protoss didn't have to deal with medivac boost. Part of the reason Photon Overcharge exists is to deal with the fact that Protoss' ground-to-air anti-air is kinda bad and too slow compared to medivacs (it suffers from the same issue here as it does versus muta). Pro Terran drops would be practically unstoppable without Photon overcharge. It would pidgeonhole Protoss into opening phoenix or defensive blink pretty much every game in order to not completely die to drops.
Drops in WOL were manageable because they were slow enough that they offered Protoss an opportunity to catch them with stalkers, and made it reasonable to defend because there was that chance to snipe the medivacs. In HOTS, that simply isn't the case because the cooldown on boost is such that it allows Terran to boost in,drop, do damage, and when defence arrives, pick up and boost out.
This argument simply does not hold. WOL is a different game. An equivalent argument would be saying that Phoenix range should be reduced in HOTS because in WOL Protoss could defend mass muta with blink/storm. They're different games and what applied in one does not always apply in the other.
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United States7483 Posts
On March 03 2014 14:44 vthree wrote:Show nested quote +On March 03 2014 13:30 Whitewing wrote:On March 03 2014 12:45 vthree wrote:On March 03 2014 12:28 ETisME wrote:On March 03 2014 11:36 vthree wrote:On March 03 2014 00:16 ETisME wrote:On March 02 2014 23:57 vthree wrote:On March 02 2014 23:32 ETisME wrote:On March 02 2014 23:26 TurboMaN wrote:On March 02 2014 09:40 plogamer wrote:
[quote]
Oh but it has no attack. So it's perfectly reasonable that one or two high templars can dent 30+ supply against Terran opponents. It's the Terran's fault for eating storms. Good Terrans never eat storms but even the best protoss cannot dodge emps. Why? Because emp is instant damage. INSTANT. You know it's powerful because it's instant. I don't believe that Can you please provide us with a game of two high level player where the Terran doesn't eat a storms because he dodges every single storm? From what I've seen on Pro streams in many games is that even Teaja, Polt, Innovation, Byun, Marineking get their armies demolished by storms from time to time. No Terran can dodge every storm in a TvP vs an at least equally skilled Protoss. If EMP would have the same delay as storms it wouldn't make a difference because the Protoss army is way slower. However in my opinion the issue is not with the Templar but within the Warpgate design. Protoss players can use it to: - Offensively warp in units - Defensively to defend drops (additional to Photon Overcharge) - Spend a bank of money to instantly rebuild a strong army What is so strong about it: - Build time (faster than normal Gateway build time) - Chronoboost (makes the build time even faster) - Lack of opportunity costs (apart from proxy builds Gateways don't offer any advantage over Warpgates) He is joking Also one reason why storms are hitting more often is because protoss players are getting better, most kespa players are doing a lot of ht flanks, some would do warp prism ht storm and split up their hts. from the list of terrans you put up, only taeja really uses ghost heavy TvP style. It's understandable that storm is extremely good when terran is "forced" to play marine marauder mid game and has smaller room to add ghost tech. Warp in is fine. You have to remember it was never much of a problem back in WoL since gateway army is horrible against a nice bio ball anyway. Terran's heavy marauder ghost viking in WoL was pretty insanely powerful against anything protoss can throw at them. It's just that in hots, it is harder to survive until that stage and even if the terran does get to that stage, protoss can start having tempests out which makes things a lot harder for terran You can't compare HoTS with WoL. Gateway army is great against bio until stim and medivacs are out. In WoL, this forced the Protoss to make at least 5-6 sentries to defend that stim+2 medivac push. But with the MsC, that push is no longer effective because Protoss has MSC, so you see Protoss going with 1-2 sentries for guardian shield and going for early storm and quicker third. So by the time Terran has 6 medivacs to overcome the photon overcharge, Protoss already have storm. That is why Terrans have been having a hard time, the timing window to 'push' back is so small. this is why i said terran is "forced" to play marine marauder. warp gate tech is not the issue, it's the early game snowballing but early game warp gate tech is one of the reasons protoss get the early game snowballing. It is also one of the reasons that PvP needs a 60 second overcharge. Warp ins makes it so that if you get an early army advantage (even 1 or 2 stalkers), it just snowballs because your production can arrive so close to the base. Things like blink all-ins would be a lot weaker if the protoss needed to walk reinforcement stalkers across the map. Of course, it isn't just the warp in tech only. It is more a combination of warp in, MsC and the possibility of oracle play that is forcing the terran into very narrow tech paths/builds. That is true for most OP builds. BL/infestors was a combination of Queens, bigger maps, better creep spread, and then finally BL/infestors themselves. 1-1-1 was combination of banshee harass + marines + tank range + maps + terran wall off not allowing protoss to scout. PvP needs an overcharge is because how coin flipping it is. Warp in tech is a feature, you can't just say it is why protoss is doing great now. in WoL, generally Terran has a great map control when medivacs are out. Warp gate tech only helps in defending them and that part of the game is perfectly balance. (because splitting up protoss army is more complicated than splitting up marine marauder in two locations) The whole blink all in and how protoss is played out is warp in tech. there wouldn't even be blink all in if the stalkers needs to walk all the way from the home base. The fact that blink all in in WoL is largely defendable even with warp gate tech is not because terran player is uber good or protoss player is horrible. It's just that in hots, blink all in is a lot stronger, with the current map and faster high ground vision unit that gives great support to blink stalkers. also zvz micro also is about maintaining the concave. You can see how zerg keeps readjusting the army position to allow better concaves or punch through a weaker army positioning on one side (see tefel vs sort of yesterday zotac cup), especially more of repositioning when hydras are involved. Yes, but the game is a bit more complicated then that. BL/infestors were only a problem after the Queen buff and yet it was the fungal that was nerfed. Blizzard could have nerfed the Queen back down instead but then we are back to square one. Sure, you can bring back WoL early game balance in PvT if we just removed the MsC. But then we are back to WoL. When you add in a unit/buff a unit in the game, it creates synergy with features/units. And sometimes that synergy could be too much. One great example is hellbat drops. What made hellbats drops so good? 1) Medivac speed boost 2) Medivacs healing hellbats 3) Hellbat early game damage It wasn't only 1 thing that made it strong, it is the combination. For P, it is the offensive capabilities of forward warp gates plus the offensive/scouting capabilities of MsC that is making them strong early game. Infestor broodlord in PvZ had nothing to do with the queen buff. Nerfing queens back down would have helped in TvZ, but PvZ would have remained a horrific clusterfuck, so nerfing fungal was a better option. But Fungal nerf wasn't really that big for PvZ. The biggest affect was mainly that blink stalkers could blink out of fungal but it is not like zealots, sentries, voidrays could dodge out of the new fungals. And Queen's did affect PvZ (although not as much as TvZ), the additional range made probe scouting vs zerg harder so protoss had to play safer against things like bane bust/roach bust.
Um, stalkers could never blink out of fungal? Once they were hit they were stuck, still are. If you mean you could dodge them, then sure, but that didn't matter for the actual engagement.
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On March 03 2014 23:56 Whitewing wrote:Show nested quote +On March 03 2014 14:44 vthree wrote:On March 03 2014 13:30 Whitewing wrote:On March 03 2014 12:45 vthree wrote:On March 03 2014 12:28 ETisME wrote:On March 03 2014 11:36 vthree wrote:On March 03 2014 00:16 ETisME wrote:On March 02 2014 23:57 vthree wrote:On March 02 2014 23:32 ETisME wrote:On March 02 2014 23:26 TurboMaN wrote:[quote] I don't believe that Can you please provide us with a game of two high level player where the Terran doesn't eat a storms because he dodges every single storm? From what I've seen on Pro streams in many games is that even Teaja, Polt, Innovation, Byun, Marineking get their armies demolished by storms from time to time. No Terran can dodge every storm in a TvP vs an at least equally skilled Protoss. If EMP would have the same delay as storms it wouldn't make a difference because the Protoss army is way slower. However in my opinion the issue is not with the Templar but within the Warpgate design. Protoss players can use it to: - Offensively warp in units - Defensively to defend drops (additional to Photon Overcharge) - Spend a bank of money to instantly rebuild a strong army What is so strong about it: - Build time (faster than normal Gateway build time) - Chronoboost (makes the build time even faster) - Lack of opportunity costs (apart from proxy builds Gateways don't offer any advantage over Warpgates) He is joking Also one reason why storms are hitting more often is because protoss players are getting better, most kespa players are doing a lot of ht flanks, some would do warp prism ht storm and split up their hts. from the list of terrans you put up, only taeja really uses ghost heavy TvP style. It's understandable that storm is extremely good when terran is "forced" to play marine marauder mid game and has smaller room to add ghost tech. Warp in is fine. You have to remember it was never much of a problem back in WoL since gateway army is horrible against a nice bio ball anyway. Terran's heavy marauder ghost viking in WoL was pretty insanely powerful against anything protoss can throw at them. It's just that in hots, it is harder to survive until that stage and even if the terran does get to that stage, protoss can start having tempests out which makes things a lot harder for terran You can't compare HoTS with WoL. Gateway army is great against bio until stim and medivacs are out. In WoL, this forced the Protoss to make at least 5-6 sentries to defend that stim+2 medivac push. But with the MsC, that push is no longer effective because Protoss has MSC, so you see Protoss going with 1-2 sentries for guardian shield and going for early storm and quicker third. So by the time Terran has 6 medivacs to overcome the photon overcharge, Protoss already have storm. That is why Terrans have been having a hard time, the timing window to 'push' back is so small. this is why i said terran is "forced" to play marine marauder. warp gate tech is not the issue, it's the early game snowballing but early game warp gate tech is one of the reasons protoss get the early game snowballing. It is also one of the reasons that PvP needs a 60 second overcharge. Warp ins makes it so that if you get an early army advantage (even 1 or 2 stalkers), it just snowballs because your production can arrive so close to the base. Things like blink all-ins would be a lot weaker if the protoss needed to walk reinforcement stalkers across the map. Of course, it isn't just the warp in tech only. It is more a combination of warp in, MsC and the possibility of oracle play that is forcing the terran into very narrow tech paths/builds. That is true for most OP builds. BL/infestors was a combination of Queens, bigger maps, better creep spread, and then finally BL/infestors themselves. 1-1-1 was combination of banshee harass + marines + tank range + maps + terran wall off not allowing protoss to scout. PvP needs an overcharge is because how coin flipping it is. Warp in tech is a feature, you can't just say it is why protoss is doing great now. in WoL, generally Terran has a great map control when medivacs are out. Warp gate tech only helps in defending them and that part of the game is perfectly balance. (because splitting up protoss army is more complicated than splitting up marine marauder in two locations) The whole blink all in and how protoss is played out is warp in tech. there wouldn't even be blink all in if the stalkers needs to walk all the way from the home base. The fact that blink all in in WoL is largely defendable even with warp gate tech is not because terran player is uber good or protoss player is horrible. It's just that in hots, blink all in is a lot stronger, with the current map and faster high ground vision unit that gives great support to blink stalkers. also zvz micro also is about maintaining the concave. You can see how zerg keeps readjusting the army position to allow better concaves or punch through a weaker army positioning on one side (see tefel vs sort of yesterday zotac cup), especially more of repositioning when hydras are involved. Yes, but the game is a bit more complicated then that. BL/infestors were only a problem after the Queen buff and yet it was the fungal that was nerfed. Blizzard could have nerfed the Queen back down instead but then we are back to square one. Sure, you can bring back WoL early game balance in PvT if we just removed the MsC. But then we are back to WoL. When you add in a unit/buff a unit in the game, it creates synergy with features/units. And sometimes that synergy could be too much. One great example is hellbat drops. What made hellbats drops so good? 1) Medivac speed boost 2) Medivacs healing hellbats 3) Hellbat early game damage It wasn't only 1 thing that made it strong, it is the combination. For P, it is the offensive capabilities of forward warp gates plus the offensive/scouting capabilities of MsC that is making them strong early game. Infestor broodlord in PvZ had nothing to do with the queen buff. Nerfing queens back down would have helped in TvZ, but PvZ would have remained a horrific clusterfuck, so nerfing fungal was a better option. But Fungal nerf wasn't really that big for PvZ. The biggest affect was mainly that blink stalkers could blink out of fungal but it is not like zealots, sentries, voidrays could dodge out of the new fungals. And Queen's did affect PvZ (although not as much as TvZ), the additional range made probe scouting vs zerg harder so protoss had to play safer against things like bane bust/roach bust. Um, stalkers could never blink out of fungal? Once they were hit they were stuck, still are. If you mean you could dodge them, then sure, but that didn't matter for the actual engagement.
Long ago, stalkers could blink after thy were fungles. Then Blizzard upgraded Zergs acid-snot tech and the the stalkers were rooted in place.
Blink may be the most nerfed ability in SC2. Not that it is a bad thing, but it shows the utility of the ability.
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United States7483 Posts
On March 04 2014 00:40 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On March 03 2014 23:56 Whitewing wrote:On March 03 2014 14:44 vthree wrote:On March 03 2014 13:30 Whitewing wrote:On March 03 2014 12:45 vthree wrote:On March 03 2014 12:28 ETisME wrote:On March 03 2014 11:36 vthree wrote:On March 03 2014 00:16 ETisME wrote:On March 02 2014 23:57 vthree wrote:On March 02 2014 23:32 ETisME wrote:[quote] He is joking Also one reason why storms are hitting more often is because protoss players are getting better, most kespa players are doing a lot of ht flanks, some would do warp prism ht storm and split up their hts. from the list of terrans you put up, only taeja really uses ghost heavy TvP style. It's understandable that storm is extremely good when terran is "forced" to play marine marauder mid game and has smaller room to add ghost tech. Warp in is fine. You have to remember it was never much of a problem back in WoL since gateway army is horrible against a nice bio ball anyway. Terran's heavy marauder ghost viking in WoL was pretty insanely powerful against anything protoss can throw at them. It's just that in hots, it is harder to survive until that stage and even if the terran does get to that stage, protoss can start having tempests out which makes things a lot harder for terran You can't compare HoTS with WoL. Gateway army is great against bio until stim and medivacs are out. In WoL, this forced the Protoss to make at least 5-6 sentries to defend that stim+2 medivac push. But with the MsC, that push is no longer effective because Protoss has MSC, so you see Protoss going with 1-2 sentries for guardian shield and going for early storm and quicker third. So by the time Terran has 6 medivacs to overcome the photon overcharge, Protoss already have storm. That is why Terrans have been having a hard time, the timing window to 'push' back is so small. this is why i said terran is "forced" to play marine marauder. warp gate tech is not the issue, it's the early game snowballing but early game warp gate tech is one of the reasons protoss get the early game snowballing. It is also one of the reasons that PvP needs a 60 second overcharge. Warp ins makes it so that if you get an early army advantage (even 1 or 2 stalkers), it just snowballs because your production can arrive so close to the base. Things like blink all-ins would be a lot weaker if the protoss needed to walk reinforcement stalkers across the map. Of course, it isn't just the warp in tech only. It is more a combination of warp in, MsC and the possibility of oracle play that is forcing the terran into very narrow tech paths/builds. That is true for most OP builds. BL/infestors was a combination of Queens, bigger maps, better creep spread, and then finally BL/infestors themselves. 1-1-1 was combination of banshee harass + marines + tank range + maps + terran wall off not allowing protoss to scout. PvP needs an overcharge is because how coin flipping it is. Warp in tech is a feature, you can't just say it is why protoss is doing great now. in WoL, generally Terran has a great map control when medivacs are out. Warp gate tech only helps in defending them and that part of the game is perfectly balance. (because splitting up protoss army is more complicated than splitting up marine marauder in two locations) The whole blink all in and how protoss is played out is warp in tech. there wouldn't even be blink all in if the stalkers needs to walk all the way from the home base. The fact that blink all in in WoL is largely defendable even with warp gate tech is not because terran player is uber good or protoss player is horrible. It's just that in hots, blink all in is a lot stronger, with the current map and faster high ground vision unit that gives great support to blink stalkers. also zvz micro also is about maintaining the concave. You can see how zerg keeps readjusting the army position to allow better concaves or punch through a weaker army positioning on one side (see tefel vs sort of yesterday zotac cup), especially more of repositioning when hydras are involved. Yes, but the game is a bit more complicated then that. BL/infestors were only a problem after the Queen buff and yet it was the fungal that was nerfed. Blizzard could have nerfed the Queen back down instead but then we are back to square one. Sure, you can bring back WoL early game balance in PvT if we just removed the MsC. But then we are back to WoL. When you add in a unit/buff a unit in the game, it creates synergy with features/units. And sometimes that synergy could be too much. One great example is hellbat drops. What made hellbats drops so good? 1) Medivac speed boost 2) Medivacs healing hellbats 3) Hellbat early game damage It wasn't only 1 thing that made it strong, it is the combination. For P, it is the offensive capabilities of forward warp gates plus the offensive/scouting capabilities of MsC that is making them strong early game. Infestor broodlord in PvZ had nothing to do with the queen buff. Nerfing queens back down would have helped in TvZ, but PvZ would have remained a horrific clusterfuck, so nerfing fungal was a better option. But Fungal nerf wasn't really that big for PvZ. The biggest affect was mainly that blink stalkers could blink out of fungal but it is not like zealots, sentries, voidrays could dodge out of the new fungals. And Queen's did affect PvZ (although not as much as TvZ), the additional range made probe scouting vs zerg harder so protoss had to play safer against things like bane bust/roach bust. Um, stalkers could never blink out of fungal? Once they were hit they were stuck, still are. If you mean you could dodge them, then sure, but that didn't matter for the actual engagement. Long ago, stalkers could blink after thy were fungles. Then Blizzard upgraded Zergs acid-snot tech and the the stalkers were rooted in place. Blink may be the most nerfed ability in SC2. Not that it is a bad thing, but it shows the utility of the ability.
Yeah but that was way before the queen buff and way before broodlord infestor was an issue.
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On March 04 2014 00:41 Whitewing wrote:Show nested quote +On March 04 2014 00:40 Plansix wrote:On March 03 2014 23:56 Whitewing wrote:On March 03 2014 14:44 vthree wrote:On March 03 2014 13:30 Whitewing wrote:On March 03 2014 12:45 vthree wrote:On March 03 2014 12:28 ETisME wrote:On March 03 2014 11:36 vthree wrote:On March 03 2014 00:16 ETisME wrote:On March 02 2014 23:57 vthree wrote:
[quote]
You can't compare HoTS with WoL. Gateway army is great against bio until stim and medivacs are out. In WoL, this forced the Protoss to make at least 5-6 sentries to defend that stim+2 medivac push. But with the MsC, that push is no longer effective because Protoss has MSC, so you see Protoss going with 1-2 sentries for guardian shield and going for early storm and quicker third. So by the time Terran has 6 medivacs to overcome the photon overcharge, Protoss already have storm.
That is why Terrans have been having a hard time, the timing window to 'push' back is so small. this is why i said terran is "forced" to play marine marauder. warp gate tech is not the issue, it's the early game snowballing but early game warp gate tech is one of the reasons protoss get the early game snowballing. It is also one of the reasons that PvP needs a 60 second overcharge. Warp ins makes it so that if you get an early army advantage (even 1 or 2 stalkers), it just snowballs because your production can arrive so close to the base. Things like blink all-ins would be a lot weaker if the protoss needed to walk reinforcement stalkers across the map. Of course, it isn't just the warp in tech only. It is more a combination of warp in, MsC and the possibility of oracle play that is forcing the terran into very narrow tech paths/builds. That is true for most OP builds. BL/infestors was a combination of Queens, bigger maps, better creep spread, and then finally BL/infestors themselves. 1-1-1 was combination of banshee harass + marines + tank range + maps + terran wall off not allowing protoss to scout. PvP needs an overcharge is because how coin flipping it is. Warp in tech is a feature, you can't just say it is why protoss is doing great now. in WoL, generally Terran has a great map control when medivacs are out. Warp gate tech only helps in defending them and that part of the game is perfectly balance. (because splitting up protoss army is more complicated than splitting up marine marauder in two locations) The whole blink all in and how protoss is played out is warp in tech. there wouldn't even be blink all in if the stalkers needs to walk all the way from the home base. The fact that blink all in in WoL is largely defendable even with warp gate tech is not because terran player is uber good or protoss player is horrible. It's just that in hots, blink all in is a lot stronger, with the current map and faster high ground vision unit that gives great support to blink stalkers. also zvz micro also is about maintaining the concave. You can see how zerg keeps readjusting the army position to allow better concaves or punch through a weaker army positioning on one side (see tefel vs sort of yesterday zotac cup), especially more of repositioning when hydras are involved. Yes, but the game is a bit more complicated then that. BL/infestors were only a problem after the Queen buff and yet it was the fungal that was nerfed. Blizzard could have nerfed the Queen back down instead but then we are back to square one. Sure, you can bring back WoL early game balance in PvT if we just removed the MsC. But then we are back to WoL. When you add in a unit/buff a unit in the game, it creates synergy with features/units. And sometimes that synergy could be too much. One great example is hellbat drops. What made hellbats drops so good? 1) Medivac speed boost 2) Medivacs healing hellbats 3) Hellbat early game damage It wasn't only 1 thing that made it strong, it is the combination. For P, it is the offensive capabilities of forward warp gates plus the offensive/scouting capabilities of MsC that is making them strong early game. Infestor broodlord in PvZ had nothing to do with the queen buff. Nerfing queens back down would have helped in TvZ, but PvZ would have remained a horrific clusterfuck, so nerfing fungal was a better option. But Fungal nerf wasn't really that big for PvZ. The biggest affect was mainly that blink stalkers could blink out of fungal but it is not like zealots, sentries, voidrays could dodge out of the new fungals. And Queen's did affect PvZ (although not as much as TvZ), the additional range made probe scouting vs zerg harder so protoss had to play safer against things like bane bust/roach bust. Um, stalkers could never blink out of fungal? Once they were hit they were stuck, still are. If you mean you could dodge them, then sure, but that didn't matter for the actual engagement. Long ago, stalkers could blink after thy were fungles. Then Blizzard upgraded Zergs acid-snot tech and the the stalkers were rooted in place. Blink may be the most nerfed ability in SC2. Not that it is a bad thing, but it shows the utility of the ability. Yeah but that was way before the queen buff and way before broodlord infestor was an issue.
I can't remember the time frame, but it was around the time fungle got it's DPS upgraded. Either way, it was a blow to Protoss at the time. Still, fungles really kicked the shit out of sentries, which is way it was so awsome back in the day. It was the way to stop a bunch of timings.
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On March 04 2014 00:48 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On March 04 2014 00:41 Whitewing wrote:On March 04 2014 00:40 Plansix wrote:On March 03 2014 23:56 Whitewing wrote:On March 03 2014 14:44 vthree wrote:On March 03 2014 13:30 Whitewing wrote:On March 03 2014 12:45 vthree wrote:On March 03 2014 12:28 ETisME wrote:On March 03 2014 11:36 vthree wrote:On March 03 2014 00:16 ETisME wrote:
[quote]
this is why i said terran is "forced" to play marine marauder.
warp gate tech is not the issue, it's the early game snowballing but early game warp gate tech is one of the reasons protoss get the early game snowballing. It is also one of the reasons that PvP needs a 60 second overcharge. Warp ins makes it so that if you get an early army advantage (even 1 or 2 stalkers), it just snowballs because your production can arrive so close to the base. Things like blink all-ins would be a lot weaker if the protoss needed to walk reinforcement stalkers across the map. Of course, it isn't just the warp in tech only. It is more a combination of warp in, MsC and the possibility of oracle play that is forcing the terran into very narrow tech paths/builds. That is true for most OP builds. BL/infestors was a combination of Queens, bigger maps, better creep spread, and then finally BL/infestors themselves. 1-1-1 was combination of banshee harass + marines + tank range + maps + terran wall off not allowing protoss to scout. PvP needs an overcharge is because how coin flipping it is. Warp in tech is a feature, you can't just say it is why protoss is doing great now. in WoL, generally Terran has a great map control when medivacs are out. Warp gate tech only helps in defending them and that part of the game is perfectly balance. (because splitting up protoss army is more complicated than splitting up marine marauder in two locations) The whole blink all in and how protoss is played out is warp in tech. there wouldn't even be blink all in if the stalkers needs to walk all the way from the home base. The fact that blink all in in WoL is largely defendable even with warp gate tech is not because terran player is uber good or protoss player is horrible. It's just that in hots, blink all in is a lot stronger, with the current map and faster high ground vision unit that gives great support to blink stalkers. also zvz micro also is about maintaining the concave. You can see how zerg keeps readjusting the army position to allow better concaves or punch through a weaker army positioning on one side (see tefel vs sort of yesterday zotac cup), especially more of repositioning when hydras are involved. Yes, but the game is a bit more complicated then that. BL/infestors were only a problem after the Queen buff and yet it was the fungal that was nerfed. Blizzard could have nerfed the Queen back down instead but then we are back to square one. Sure, you can bring back WoL early game balance in PvT if we just removed the MsC. But then we are back to WoL. When you add in a unit/buff a unit in the game, it creates synergy with features/units. And sometimes that synergy could be too much. One great example is hellbat drops. What made hellbats drops so good? 1) Medivac speed boost 2) Medivacs healing hellbats 3) Hellbat early game damage It wasn't only 1 thing that made it strong, it is the combination. For P, it is the offensive capabilities of forward warp gates plus the offensive/scouting capabilities of MsC that is making them strong early game. Infestor broodlord in PvZ had nothing to do with the queen buff. Nerfing queens back down would have helped in TvZ, but PvZ would have remained a horrific clusterfuck, so nerfing fungal was a better option. But Fungal nerf wasn't really that big for PvZ. The biggest affect was mainly that blink stalkers could blink out of fungal but it is not like zealots, sentries, voidrays could dodge out of the new fungals. And Queen's did affect PvZ (although not as much as TvZ), the additional range made probe scouting vs zerg harder so protoss had to play safer against things like bane bust/roach bust. Um, stalkers could never blink out of fungal? Once they were hit they were stuck, still are. If you mean you could dodge them, then sure, but that didn't matter for the actual engagement. Long ago, stalkers could blink after thy were fungles. Then Blizzard upgraded Zergs acid-snot tech and the the stalkers were rooted in place. Blink may be the most nerfed ability in SC2. Not that it is a bad thing, but it shows the utility of the ability. Yeah but that was way before the queen buff and way before broodlord infestor was an issue. I can't remember the time frame, but it was around the time fungle got it's DPS upgraded. Either way, it was a blow to Protoss at the time. Still, fungles really kicked the shit out of sentries, which is way it was so awsome back in the day. It was the way to stop a bunch of timings.
Fungal prevented stalkers from blinking in a patch from October 2010, so very quickly after release. This was half a year before fungal dps was improved. The reason for the change was because it seemed to accentuate the rooting aspect of fungal and because infestors were seen as useless back then. And it wasn't a "blow to protoss", most protoss players didn't care because nobody made infestors.
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Ah, now I remember. My memory of blink nerfs is so fuzzy because there were been so many and all of them are so tiny. I thought it was a bigger deal, but that may have been the dps the dps buff and I am conflating the two.
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On March 03 2014 19:54 Grumbels wrote:
It seems a bit odd that mine splash is higher on protoss units than the friendly fire is on terran units.
how is that odd?
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On March 04 2014 01:42 Jerom wrote:Show nested quote +On March 03 2014 19:54 Grumbels wrote:
It seems a bit odd that mine splash is higher on protoss units than the friendly fire is on terran units. how is that odd?
what is odd is that the collosus does no friendly splash damage.
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On March 04 2014 02:26 Loccstana wrote:Show nested quote +On March 04 2014 01:42 Jerom wrote:On March 03 2014 19:54 Grumbels wrote:
It seems a bit odd that mine splash is higher on protoss units than the friendly fire is on terran units. how is that odd? what is odd is that the collosus does no friendly splash damage.
That's not odd at all.
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EPT
