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On March 03 2014 23:56 Whitewing wrote:Show nested quote +On March 03 2014 14:44 vthree wrote:On March 03 2014 13:30 Whitewing wrote:On March 03 2014 12:45 vthree wrote:On March 03 2014 12:28 ETisME wrote:On March 03 2014 11:36 vthree wrote:On March 03 2014 00:16 ETisME wrote:On March 02 2014 23:57 vthree wrote:On March 02 2014 23:32 ETisME wrote:On March 02 2014 23:26 TurboMaN wrote:[quote] I don't believe that  Can you please provide us with a game of two high level player where the Terran doesn't eat a storms because he dodges every single storm? From what I've seen on Pro streams in many games is that even Teaja, Polt, Innovation, Byun, Marineking get their armies demolished by storms from time to time. No Terran can dodge every storm in a TvP vs an at least equally skilled Protoss. If EMP would have the same delay as storms it wouldn't make a difference because the Protoss army is way slower. However in my opinion the issue is not with the Templar but within the Warpgate design. Protoss players can use it to: - Offensively warp in units - Defensively to defend drops (additional to Photon Overcharge) - Spend a bank of money to instantly rebuild a strong army What is so strong about it: - Build time (faster than normal Gateway build time) - Chronoboost (makes the build time even faster) - Lack of opportunity costs (apart from proxy builds Gateways don't offer any advantage over Warpgates) He is joking  Also one reason why storms are hitting more often is because protoss players are getting better, most kespa players are doing a lot of ht flanks, some would do warp prism ht storm and split up their hts. from the list of terrans you put up, only taeja really uses ghost heavy TvP style. It's understandable that storm is extremely good when terran is "forced" to play marine marauder mid game and has smaller room to add ghost tech. Warp in is fine. You have to remember it was never much of a problem back in WoL since gateway army is horrible against a nice bio ball anyway. Terran's heavy marauder ghost viking in WoL was pretty insanely powerful against anything protoss can throw at them. It's just that in hots, it is harder to survive until that stage and even if the terran does get to that stage, protoss can start having tempests out which makes things a lot harder for terran You can't compare HoTS with WoL. Gateway army is great against bio until stim and medivacs are out. In WoL, this forced the Protoss to make at least 5-6 sentries to defend that stim+2 medivac push. But with the MsC, that push is no longer effective because Protoss has MSC, so you see Protoss going with 1-2 sentries for guardian shield and going for early storm and quicker third. So by the time Terran has 6 medivacs to overcome the photon overcharge, Protoss already have storm. That is why Terrans have been having a hard time, the timing window to 'push' back is so small. this is why i said terran is "forced" to play marine marauder. warp gate tech is not the issue, it's the early game snowballing but early game warp gate tech is one of the reasons protoss get the early game snowballing. It is also one of the reasons that PvP needs a 60 second overcharge. Warp ins makes it so that if you get an early army advantage (even 1 or 2 stalkers), it just snowballs because your production can arrive so close to the base. Things like blink all-ins would be a lot weaker if the protoss needed to walk reinforcement stalkers across the map. Of course, it isn't just the warp in tech only. It is more a combination of warp in, MsC and the possibility of oracle play that is forcing the terran into very narrow tech paths/builds. That is true for most OP builds. BL/infestors was a combination of Queens, bigger maps, better creep spread, and then finally BL/infestors themselves. 1-1-1 was combination of banshee harass + marines + tank range + maps + terran wall off not allowing protoss to scout. PvP needs an overcharge is because how coin flipping it is. Warp in tech is a feature, you can't just say it is why protoss is doing great now. in WoL, generally Terran has a great map control when medivacs are out. Warp gate tech only helps in defending them and that part of the game is perfectly balance. (because splitting up protoss army is more complicated than splitting up marine marauder in two locations) The whole blink all in and how protoss is played out is warp in tech. there wouldn't even be blink all in if the stalkers needs to walk all the way from the home base. The fact that blink all in in WoL is largely defendable even with warp gate tech is not because terran player is uber good or protoss player is horrible. It's just that in hots, blink all in is a lot stronger, with the current map and faster high ground vision unit that gives great support to blink stalkers. also zvz micro also is about maintaining the concave. You can see how zerg keeps readjusting the army position to allow better concaves or punch through a weaker army positioning on one side (see tefel vs sort of yesterday zotac cup), especially more of repositioning when hydras are involved. Yes, but the game is a bit more complicated then that. BL/infestors were only a problem after the Queen buff and yet it was the fungal that was nerfed. Blizzard could have nerfed the Queen back down instead but then we are back to square one. Sure, you can bring back WoL early game balance in PvT if we just removed the MsC. But then we are back to WoL. When you add in a unit/buff a unit in the game, it creates synergy with features/units. And sometimes that synergy could be too much. One great example is hellbat drops. What made hellbats drops so good? 1) Medivac speed boost 2) Medivacs healing hellbats 3) Hellbat early game damage It wasn't only 1 thing that made it strong, it is the combination. For P, it is the offensive capabilities of forward warp gates plus the offensive/scouting capabilities of MsC that is making them strong early game. Infestor broodlord in PvZ had nothing to do with the queen buff. Nerfing queens back down would have helped in TvZ, but PvZ would have remained a horrific clusterfuck, so nerfing fungal was a better option. But Fungal nerf wasn't really that big for PvZ. The biggest affect was mainly that blink stalkers could blink out of fungal but it is not like zealots, sentries, voidrays could dodge out of the new fungals. And Queen's did affect PvZ (although not as much as TvZ), the additional range made probe scouting vs zerg harder so protoss had to play safer against things like bane bust/roach bust. Um, stalkers could never blink out of fungal? Once they were hit they were stuck, still are. If you mean you could dodge them, then sure, but that didn't matter for the actual engagement.
Yeah, I meant they could blink out before the fungals landed. And it does matter for 3 bases stalker colo pushes designed to hit before BLs. It is a pretty big deal to have your lead stalkers caught by fungals because then, you lose the anti air you need to kill the corruptors quickly when means you colossi are forced down fast.
As for splash damage working differently for each AoE, I think it is because AOEs are so powerful that you need to tweak it in order to make sure it is balance. Things like banes and colossus with friendly fire just couldn't work.
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On March 04 2014 02:40 vthree wrote:Show nested quote +On March 03 2014 23:56 Whitewing wrote:On March 03 2014 14:44 vthree wrote:On March 03 2014 13:30 Whitewing wrote:On March 03 2014 12:45 vthree wrote:On March 03 2014 12:28 ETisME wrote:On March 03 2014 11:36 vthree wrote:On March 03 2014 00:16 ETisME wrote:On March 02 2014 23:57 vthree wrote:On March 02 2014 23:32 ETisME wrote:[quote] He is joking Also one reason why storms are hitting more often is because protoss players are getting better, most kespa players are doing a lot of ht flanks, some would do warp prism ht storm and split up their hts. from the list of terrans you put up, only taeja really uses ghost heavy TvP style. It's understandable that storm is extremely good when terran is "forced" to play marine marauder mid game and has smaller room to add ghost tech. Warp in is fine. You have to remember it was never much of a problem back in WoL since gateway army is horrible against a nice bio ball anyway. Terran's heavy marauder ghost viking in WoL was pretty insanely powerful against anything protoss can throw at them. It's just that in hots, it is harder to survive until that stage and even if the terran does get to that stage, protoss can start having tempests out which makes things a lot harder for terran You can't compare HoTS with WoL. Gateway army is great against bio until stim and medivacs are out. In WoL, this forced the Protoss to make at least 5-6 sentries to defend that stim+2 medivac push. But with the MsC, that push is no longer effective because Protoss has MSC, so you see Protoss going with 1-2 sentries for guardian shield and going for early storm and quicker third. So by the time Terran has 6 medivacs to overcome the photon overcharge, Protoss already have storm. That is why Terrans have been having a hard time, the timing window to 'push' back is so small. this is why i said terran is "forced" to play marine marauder. warp gate tech is not the issue, it's the early game snowballing but early game warp gate tech is one of the reasons protoss get the early game snowballing. It is also one of the reasons that PvP needs a 60 second overcharge. Warp ins makes it so that if you get an early army advantage (even 1 or 2 stalkers), it just snowballs because your production can arrive so close to the base. Things like blink all-ins would be a lot weaker if the protoss needed to walk reinforcement stalkers across the map. Of course, it isn't just the warp in tech only. It is more a combination of warp in, MsC and the possibility of oracle play that is forcing the terran into very narrow tech paths/builds. That is true for most OP builds. BL/infestors was a combination of Queens, bigger maps, better creep spread, and then finally BL/infestors themselves. 1-1-1 was combination of banshee harass + marines + tank range + maps + terran wall off not allowing protoss to scout. PvP needs an overcharge is because how coin flipping it is. Warp in tech is a feature, you can't just say it is why protoss is doing great now. in WoL, generally Terran has a great map control when medivacs are out. Warp gate tech only helps in defending them and that part of the game is perfectly balance. (because splitting up protoss army is more complicated than splitting up marine marauder in two locations) The whole blink all in and how protoss is played out is warp in tech. there wouldn't even be blink all in if the stalkers needs to walk all the way from the home base. The fact that blink all in in WoL is largely defendable even with warp gate tech is not because terran player is uber good or protoss player is horrible. It's just that in hots, blink all in is a lot stronger, with the current map and faster high ground vision unit that gives great support to blink stalkers. also zvz micro also is about maintaining the concave. You can see how zerg keeps readjusting the army position to allow better concaves or punch through a weaker army positioning on one side (see tefel vs sort of yesterday zotac cup), especially more of repositioning when hydras are involved. Yes, but the game is a bit more complicated then that. BL/infestors were only a problem after the Queen buff and yet it was the fungal that was nerfed. Blizzard could have nerfed the Queen back down instead but then we are back to square one. Sure, you can bring back WoL early game balance in PvT if we just removed the MsC. But then we are back to WoL. When you add in a unit/buff a unit in the game, it creates synergy with features/units. And sometimes that synergy could be too much. One great example is hellbat drops. What made hellbats drops so good? 1) Medivac speed boost 2) Medivacs healing hellbats 3) Hellbat early game damage It wasn't only 1 thing that made it strong, it is the combination. For P, it is the offensive capabilities of forward warp gates plus the offensive/scouting capabilities of MsC that is making them strong early game. Infestor broodlord in PvZ had nothing to do with the queen buff. Nerfing queens back down would have helped in TvZ, but PvZ would have remained a horrific clusterfuck, so nerfing fungal was a better option. But Fungal nerf wasn't really that big for PvZ. The biggest affect was mainly that blink stalkers could blink out of fungal but it is not like zealots, sentries, voidrays could dodge out of the new fungals. And Queen's did affect PvZ (although not as much as TvZ), the additional range made probe scouting vs zerg harder so protoss had to play safer against things like bane bust/roach bust. Um, stalkers could never blink out of fungal? Once they were hit they were stuck, still are. If you mean you could dodge them, then sure, but that didn't matter for the actual engagement. Yeah, I meant they could blink out before the fungals landed. And it does matter for 3 bases stalker colo pushes designed to hit before BLs. It is a pretty big deal to have your lead stalkers caught by fungals because then, you lose the anti air you need to kill the corruptors quickly when means you colossi are forced down fast.
fungal was instant back in WoL, they can't blink out before it landed.
It had always been a commit or don't commit engagement when it comes to bl infestor.
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On March 04 2014 02:42 ETisME wrote:Show nested quote +On March 04 2014 02:40 vthree wrote:On March 03 2014 23:56 Whitewing wrote:On March 03 2014 14:44 vthree wrote:On March 03 2014 13:30 Whitewing wrote:On March 03 2014 12:45 vthree wrote:On March 03 2014 12:28 ETisME wrote:On March 03 2014 11:36 vthree wrote:On March 03 2014 00:16 ETisME wrote:On March 02 2014 23:57 vthree wrote:
[quote]
You can't compare HoTS with WoL. Gateway army is great against bio until stim and medivacs are out. In WoL, this forced the Protoss to make at least 5-6 sentries to defend that stim+2 medivac push. But with the MsC, that push is no longer effective because Protoss has MSC, so you see Protoss going with 1-2 sentries for guardian shield and going for early storm and quicker third. So by the time Terran has 6 medivacs to overcome the photon overcharge, Protoss already have storm.
That is why Terrans have been having a hard time, the timing window to 'push' back is so small. this is why i said terran is "forced" to play marine marauder. warp gate tech is not the issue, it's the early game snowballing but early game warp gate tech is one of the reasons protoss get the early game snowballing. It is also one of the reasons that PvP needs a 60 second overcharge. Warp ins makes it so that if you get an early army advantage (even 1 or 2 stalkers), it just snowballs because your production can arrive so close to the base. Things like blink all-ins would be a lot weaker if the protoss needed to walk reinforcement stalkers across the map. Of course, it isn't just the warp in tech only. It is more a combination of warp in, MsC and the possibility of oracle play that is forcing the terran into very narrow tech paths/builds. That is true for most OP builds. BL/infestors was a combination of Queens, bigger maps, better creep spread, and then finally BL/infestors themselves. 1-1-1 was combination of banshee harass + marines + tank range + maps + terran wall off not allowing protoss to scout. PvP needs an overcharge is because how coin flipping it is. Warp in tech is a feature, you can't just say it is why protoss is doing great now. in WoL, generally Terran has a great map control when medivacs are out. Warp gate tech only helps in defending them and that part of the game is perfectly balance. (because splitting up protoss army is more complicated than splitting up marine marauder in two locations) The whole blink all in and how protoss is played out is warp in tech. there wouldn't even be blink all in if the stalkers needs to walk all the way from the home base. The fact that blink all in in WoL is largely defendable even with warp gate tech is not because terran player is uber good or protoss player is horrible. It's just that in hots, blink all in is a lot stronger, with the current map and faster high ground vision unit that gives great support to blink stalkers. also zvz micro also is about maintaining the concave. You can see how zerg keeps readjusting the army position to allow better concaves or punch through a weaker army positioning on one side (see tefel vs sort of yesterday zotac cup), especially more of repositioning when hydras are involved. Yes, but the game is a bit more complicated then that. BL/infestors were only a problem after the Queen buff and yet it was the fungal that was nerfed. Blizzard could have nerfed the Queen back down instead but then we are back to square one. Sure, you can bring back WoL early game balance in PvT if we just removed the MsC. But then we are back to WoL. When you add in a unit/buff a unit in the game, it creates synergy with features/units. And sometimes that synergy could be too much. One great example is hellbat drops. What made hellbats drops so good? 1) Medivac speed boost 2) Medivacs healing hellbats 3) Hellbat early game damage It wasn't only 1 thing that made it strong, it is the combination. For P, it is the offensive capabilities of forward warp gates plus the offensive/scouting capabilities of MsC that is making them strong early game. Infestor broodlord in PvZ had nothing to do with the queen buff. Nerfing queens back down would have helped in TvZ, but PvZ would have remained a horrific clusterfuck, so nerfing fungal was a better option. But Fungal nerf wasn't really that big for PvZ. The biggest affect was mainly that blink stalkers could blink out of fungal but it is not like zealots, sentries, voidrays could dodge out of the new fungals. And Queen's did affect PvZ (although not as much as TvZ), the additional range made probe scouting vs zerg harder so protoss had to play safer against things like bane bust/roach bust. Um, stalkers could never blink out of fungal? Once they were hit they were stuck, still are. If you mean you could dodge them, then sure, but that didn't matter for the actual engagement. Yeah, I meant they could blink out before the fungals landed. And it does matter for 3 bases stalker colo pushes designed to hit before BLs. It is a pretty big deal to have your lead stalkers caught by fungals because then, you lose the anti air you need to kill the corruptors quickly when means you colossi are forced down fast. fungal was instant back in WoL, they can't blink out before it landed. It had always been a commit or don't commit engagement when it comes to bl infestor.
I always thought this was funny: fungal used to be a projectile, then it became instant cast, then it would root stalkers, then blizzard decided to increase the dps. Constant buffs because the community complained about how weak infestors were. Blizzard suggested to change fungal back to a projectile in 2011 and the zerg players revolted and demanded buffs. (the idra effect was strong back then)
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On March 04 2014 02:37 Zenbrez wrote:Show nested quote +On March 04 2014 02:26 Loccstana wrote:On March 04 2014 01:42 Jerom wrote:On March 03 2014 19:54 Grumbels wrote:
It seems a bit odd that mine splash is higher on protoss units than the friendly fire is on terran units. how is that odd? what is odd is that the collosus does no friendly splash damage. That's not odd at all.
If thats not odd, then its odd that tank does friendlyfire 😉
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On March 04 2014 01:42 Jerom wrote:Show nested quote +On March 03 2014 19:54 Grumbels wrote:
It seems a bit odd that mine splash is higher on protoss units than the friendly fire is on terran units. how is that odd?
Isn't that unprecedented? Previously it used to be equal friendly fire or zero friendly fire, but now it's in between. (maybe I'm missing one)
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On March 04 2014 03:35 Grumbels wrote:Show nested quote +On March 04 2014 02:42 ETisME wrote:On March 04 2014 02:40 vthree wrote:On March 03 2014 23:56 Whitewing wrote:On March 03 2014 14:44 vthree wrote:On March 03 2014 13:30 Whitewing wrote:On March 03 2014 12:45 vthree wrote:On March 03 2014 12:28 ETisME wrote:On March 03 2014 11:36 vthree wrote:On March 03 2014 00:16 ETisME wrote:
[quote]
this is why i said terran is "forced" to play marine marauder.
warp gate tech is not the issue, it's the early game snowballing but early game warp gate tech is one of the reasons protoss get the early game snowballing. It is also one of the reasons that PvP needs a 60 second overcharge. Warp ins makes it so that if you get an early army advantage (even 1 or 2 stalkers), it just snowballs because your production can arrive so close to the base. Things like blink all-ins would be a lot weaker if the protoss needed to walk reinforcement stalkers across the map. Of course, it isn't just the warp in tech only. It is more a combination of warp in, MsC and the possibility of oracle play that is forcing the terran into very narrow tech paths/builds. That is true for most OP builds. BL/infestors was a combination of Queens, bigger maps, better creep spread, and then finally BL/infestors themselves. 1-1-1 was combination of banshee harass + marines + tank range + maps + terran wall off not allowing protoss to scout. PvP needs an overcharge is because how coin flipping it is. Warp in tech is a feature, you can't just say it is why protoss is doing great now. in WoL, generally Terran has a great map control when medivacs are out. Warp gate tech only helps in defending them and that part of the game is perfectly balance. (because splitting up protoss army is more complicated than splitting up marine marauder in two locations) The whole blink all in and how protoss is played out is warp in tech. there wouldn't even be blink all in if the stalkers needs to walk all the way from the home base. The fact that blink all in in WoL is largely defendable even with warp gate tech is not because terran player is uber good or protoss player is horrible. It's just that in hots, blink all in is a lot stronger, with the current map and faster high ground vision unit that gives great support to blink stalkers. also zvz micro also is about maintaining the concave. You can see how zerg keeps readjusting the army position to allow better concaves or punch through a weaker army positioning on one side (see tefel vs sort of yesterday zotac cup), especially more of repositioning when hydras are involved. Yes, but the game is a bit more complicated then that. BL/infestors were only a problem after the Queen buff and yet it was the fungal that was nerfed. Blizzard could have nerfed the Queen back down instead but then we are back to square one. Sure, you can bring back WoL early game balance in PvT if we just removed the MsC. But then we are back to WoL. When you add in a unit/buff a unit in the game, it creates synergy with features/units. And sometimes that synergy could be too much. One great example is hellbat drops. What made hellbats drops so good? 1) Medivac speed boost 2) Medivacs healing hellbats 3) Hellbat early game damage It wasn't only 1 thing that made it strong, it is the combination. For P, it is the offensive capabilities of forward warp gates plus the offensive/scouting capabilities of MsC that is making them strong early game. Infestor broodlord in PvZ had nothing to do with the queen buff. Nerfing queens back down would have helped in TvZ, but PvZ would have remained a horrific clusterfuck, so nerfing fungal was a better option. But Fungal nerf wasn't really that big for PvZ. The biggest affect was mainly that blink stalkers could blink out of fungal but it is not like zealots, sentries, voidrays could dodge out of the new fungals. And Queen's did affect PvZ (although not as much as TvZ), the additional range made probe scouting vs zerg harder so protoss had to play safer against things like bane bust/roach bust. Um, stalkers could never blink out of fungal? Once they were hit they were stuck, still are. If you mean you could dodge them, then sure, but that didn't matter for the actual engagement. Yeah, I meant they could blink out before the fungals landed. And it does matter for 3 bases stalker colo pushes designed to hit before BLs. It is a pretty big deal to have your lead stalkers caught by fungals because then, you lose the anti air you need to kill the corruptors quickly when means you colossi are forced down fast. fungal was instant back in WoL, they can't blink out before it landed. It had always been a commit or don't commit engagement when it comes to bl infestor. I always thought this was funny: fungal used to be a projectile, then it became instant cast, then it would root stalkers, then blizzard decided to increase the dps. Constant buffs because the community complained about how weak infestors were. Blizzard suggested to change fungal back to a projectile in 2011 and the zerg players revolted and demanded buffs. (the idra effect was strong back then)
You mean it isn't strong now? It looks to have disseminated itself across the population like some virus.
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On March 04 2014 05:23 Grumbels wrote:Show nested quote +On March 04 2014 01:42 Jerom wrote:On March 03 2014 19:54 Grumbels wrote:
It seems a bit odd that mine splash is higher on protoss units than the friendly fire is on terran units. how is that odd? Isn't that unprecedented? Previously it used to be equal friendly fire or zero friendly fire, but now it's in between. (maybe I'm missing one)
Colossus can't do friendly fire since Protoss has Zealots which are melee units (Terran has no melee units). Zealots melt to Colossus fire in PvP, we'd stand no chance in PvT w/ friendly fire.
Plus I think you can justify it in the lore. Tank shells just explode, but Colossu lasers sweep from side to side thus it's totally feasible to splash sideways onto other marines but not on the Zealots :D THE SCIENCE OF LASERS
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United States7483 Posts
On March 04 2014 06:12 DinoMight wrote:Show nested quote +On March 04 2014 05:23 Grumbels wrote:On March 04 2014 01:42 Jerom wrote:On March 03 2014 19:54 Grumbels wrote:
It seems a bit odd that mine splash is higher on protoss units than the friendly fire is on terran units. how is that odd? Isn't that unprecedented? Previously it used to be equal friendly fire or zero friendly fire, but now it's in between. (maybe I'm missing one) Colossus can't do friendly fire since Protoss has Zealots which are melee units (Terran has no melee units). Zealots melt to Colossus fire in PvP, we'd stand no chance in PvT w/ friendly fire. Plus I think you can justify it in the lore. Tank shells just explode, but Colossu lasers sweep from side to side thus it's totally feasible to splash sideways onto other marines but not on the Zealots :D THE SCIENCE OF LASERS
Storm does splash to our own units as well. Banelings don't do friendly fire either. I think it's fine for some AoE to do friendly fire and some not to.
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On March 04 2014 06:12 DinoMight wrote:Show nested quote +On March 04 2014 05:23 Grumbels wrote:On March 04 2014 01:42 Jerom wrote:On March 03 2014 19:54 Grumbels wrote:
It seems a bit odd that mine splash is higher on protoss units than the friendly fire is on terran units. how is that odd? Isn't that unprecedented? Previously it used to be equal friendly fire or zero friendly fire, but now it's in between. (maybe I'm missing one) Colossus can't do friendly fire since Protoss has Zealots which are melee units (Terran has no melee units). Zealots melt to Colossus fire in PvP, we'd stand no chance in PvT w/ friendly fire.
And when Protoss goes heavy on the Stalkers while the Terran engages against Lings/Blings/Fungals from melee range, the excuse for the difference is...?
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On March 04 2014 06:31 pure.Wasted wrote:Show nested quote +On March 04 2014 06:12 DinoMight wrote:On March 04 2014 05:23 Grumbels wrote:On March 04 2014 01:42 Jerom wrote:On March 03 2014 19:54 Grumbels wrote:
It seems a bit odd that mine splash is higher on protoss units than the friendly fire is on terran units. how is that odd? Isn't that unprecedented? Previously it used to be equal friendly fire or zero friendly fire, but now it's in between. (maybe I'm missing one) Colossus can't do friendly fire since Protoss has Zealots which are melee units (Terran has no melee units). Zealots melt to Colossus fire in PvP, we'd stand no chance in PvT w/ friendly fire. And when Protoss goes heavy on the Stalkers while the Terran engages against Lings/Blings/Fungals from melee range, the excuse for the difference is...?
Made up for by the fact that storm has friendly fire, while fungle and EMP(which can drain mana to friendly units, but that never happens) can't damage their own units.
It's sort of the same reasons why medivacs auto heal the best target or why stim in on one button for two different units. Every race has it's weird perks.
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On March 04 2014 06:48 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On March 04 2014 06:31 pure.Wasted wrote:On March 04 2014 06:12 DinoMight wrote:On March 04 2014 05:23 Grumbels wrote:On March 04 2014 01:42 Jerom wrote:On March 03 2014 19:54 Grumbels wrote:
It seems a bit odd that mine splash is higher on protoss units than the friendly fire is on terran units. how is that odd? Isn't that unprecedented? Previously it used to be equal friendly fire or zero friendly fire, but now it's in between. (maybe I'm missing one) Colossus can't do friendly fire since Protoss has Zealots which are melee units (Terran has no melee units). Zealots melt to Colossus fire in PvP, we'd stand no chance in PvT w/ friendly fire. And when Protoss goes heavy on the Stalkers while the Terran engages against Lings/Blings/Fungals from melee range, the excuse for the difference is...? Made up for by the fact that storm has friendly fire, while fungle and EMP(which can drain mana to friendly units, but that never happens) can't damage their own units. It's sort of the same reasons why medivacs auto heal the best target or why stim in on one button for two different units. Every race has it's weird perks.
I think his point was that the point the first post tried to make is not valid.
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On March 04 2014 06:50 Foxxan wrote:Show nested quote +On March 04 2014 06:48 Plansix wrote:On March 04 2014 06:31 pure.Wasted wrote:On March 04 2014 06:12 DinoMight wrote:On March 04 2014 05:23 Grumbels wrote:On March 04 2014 01:42 Jerom wrote:On March 03 2014 19:54 Grumbels wrote:
It seems a bit odd that mine splash is higher on protoss units than the friendly fire is on terran units. how is that odd? Isn't that unprecedented? Previously it used to be equal friendly fire or zero friendly fire, but now it's in between. (maybe I'm missing one) Colossus can't do friendly fire since Protoss has Zealots which are melee units (Terran has no melee units). Zealots melt to Colossus fire in PvP, we'd stand no chance in PvT w/ friendly fire. And when Protoss goes heavy on the Stalkers while the Terran engages against Lings/Blings/Fungals from melee range, the excuse for the difference is...? Made up for by the fact that storm has friendly fire, while fungle and EMP(which can drain mana to friendly units, but that never happens) can't damage their own units. It's sort of the same reasons why medivacs auto heal the best target or why stim in on one button for two different units. Every race has it's weird perks. I think his point was that the point the first post tried to make is not valid.
It's not related to balance, I just thought it was curious that widow mine splash functions uniquely now. There is no other unit to my knowledge that does bonus damage for its splash(edit: forgot about the baneling), that does different damage depending on the unit as all protoss units have different shield values, and that doesn't do either full or zero splash for friendly fire but somewhere in between.
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On March 04 2014 06:12 DinoMight wrote:Show nested quote +On March 04 2014 05:23 Grumbels wrote:On March 04 2014 01:42 Jerom wrote:On March 03 2014 19:54 Grumbels wrote:
It seems a bit odd that mine splash is higher on protoss units than the friendly fire is on terran units. how is that odd? Isn't that unprecedented? Previously it used to be equal friendly fire or zero friendly fire, but now it's in between. (maybe I'm missing one) Colossus can't do friendly fire since Protoss has Zealots which are melee units (Terran has no melee units). Zealots melt to Colossus fire in PvP, we'd stand no chance in PvT w/ friendly fire. Plus I think you can justify it in the lore. Tank shells just explode, but Colossu lasers sweep from side to side thus it's totally feasible to splash sideways onto other marines but not on the Zealots :D THE SCIENCE OF LASERS
Lol. They don't do ff-splash because at some point in the past someone at blizzard decided that they don't. That's all there is to it. If the decision was right could be argued about. I would say a little bit more microsensitivity would not hurt toss, so I think they should do splash to the own units. I also doubt that FF on the colossus would make a big difference because of the form of the splash. The round splash of tanks and mines is far more problematic.
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On March 04 2014 06:31 pure.Wasted wrote:Show nested quote +On March 04 2014 06:12 DinoMight wrote:On March 04 2014 05:23 Grumbels wrote:On March 04 2014 01:42 Jerom wrote:On March 03 2014 19:54 Grumbels wrote:
It seems a bit odd that mine splash is higher on protoss units than the friendly fire is on terran units. how is that odd? Isn't that unprecedented? Previously it used to be equal friendly fire or zero friendly fire, but now it's in between. (maybe I'm missing one) Colossus can't do friendly fire since Protoss has Zealots which are melee units (Terran has no melee units). Zealots melt to Colossus fire in PvP, we'd stand no chance in PvT w/ friendly fire. And when Protoss goes heavy on the Stalkers while the Terran engages against Lings/Blings/Fungals from melee range, the excuse for the difference is...?
Going heavy on Stalkers in late game PvT is quite bad.
Zealots would have to be much stronger if there was friendly splash from Colossus. Storm splashes, but you're generally not casting it on top of that first line of marines that is getting charged at. You're usually pulling back your zealots and bringing out your Templar to storm the charging army.
I don't think its possible to "add more micro to protoss" by adding Colossus splash because then you'd never be able to have Zealots and Colossus attacking the same target (otherwise your Zealots would all get fried).
I don't think you can require all the races to function exactly the same. I mean, you can Stim Marines AND Marauders at the same time and when you do, all your medivacs immediately start healing them and following them around. What's the justification for that? Get my drift? SO the issue of Colossus splash is just a logisitcal one rather than a fairness one.
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On March 04 2014 06:48 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On March 04 2014 06:31 pure.Wasted wrote:On March 04 2014 06:12 DinoMight wrote:On March 04 2014 05:23 Grumbels wrote:On March 04 2014 01:42 Jerom wrote:On March 03 2014 19:54 Grumbels wrote:
It seems a bit odd that mine splash is higher on protoss units than the friendly fire is on terran units. how is that odd? Isn't that unprecedented? Previously it used to be equal friendly fire or zero friendly fire, but now it's in between. (maybe I'm missing one) Colossus can't do friendly fire since Protoss has Zealots which are melee units (Terran has no melee units). Zealots melt to Colossus fire in PvP, we'd stand no chance in PvT w/ friendly fire. And when Protoss goes heavy on the Stalkers while the Terran engages against Lings/Blings/Fungals from melee range, the excuse for the difference is...? Made up for by the fact that storm has friendly fire, while fungle and EMP(which can drain mana to friendly units, but that never happens) can't damage their own units.
EMP, Nukes, Tanks, Seeker Missiles all have FF... and this is made up for by the fact that EMP doesn't hurt friendly units in the current meta?
So I guess if Stalker/HT composition became viable, you'd be up in arms because Psionic Storm no longer damaged Protoss units?
It's sort of the same reasons why medivacs auto heal the best target or why stim in on one button for two different units. Every race has it's weird perks.
Um, I'm pretty sure that Stim is on the same button because it's the same ability. Just like Burrow is on the same button for every ground Zerg unit... because it's the same ability.
As for Medivac AI, the special AI for the Terran comes with special AI for the Terran's opponent - unlike BW Medics and Dropships, Medivacs have standard attack priority. No unfair advantages here.
At some point Blizzard decided that it would be cool if Terran armies were really hard to use, while Zerg and Protoss weren't. They were wrong. Then they accidentally made ZvT take the same amount of skill for both sides by introducing the WM. Then they realized what they'd done, gave a hearty laugh, and nerfed the WM into the ground.
Protoss and Zerg need to be every single bit as mechanically demanding as Terran. If a Protoss looks away from his army in PvT for 3 seconds, it should be able to melt the exact same way Terran bio melts against Banelings. If a Protoss A-moves his army, it should have the efficiency of an A-moved Terran mech army. HOTS TvZ proved that it is possible for asymmetric races to take roughly the same amount of mechanical skill to play in SC2. Settling for anything short of that, now that we've had conclusive proof, is disgustingly lazy. I disagreed with settling for it before we had proof. Now I don't see how the point can even be argued.
I don't think its possible to "add more micro to protoss" by adding Colossus splash because then you'd never be able to have Zealots and Colossus attacking the same target (otherwise your Zealots would all get fried).
Just like how Terrans aren't able to have Marines and Siege Tanks fighting waves of Ling/Bling?
If the design creates balance issues, those balance issues can be resolved. If it means Zealots will have to have 400 HP for the game to be fair, then so be it -- as long as it actually is fair.
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On March 04 2014 08:27 pure.Wasted wrote:
If the design creates balance issues, those balance issues can be resolved. If it means Zealots will have to have 400 HP for the game to be fair, then so be it -- as long as it actually is fair.
...
This is not imbalance. This is difference in design. If you don't want to micro against splash damage, don't play Terran. But don't expect that the races have to do everything exactly the same. The difference in how the races play is part of the charm of this game relative to other RTS games like Age of Empires, where only 1 unit/upgrade is different for each "race."
Asymmetry = not all races are given the same tools
Balance = all races can win if they use the tools they are given effectively
I think you will find that as far as RTS games go SC2 is quite balanced given how a symmetrical it is.
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On March 04 2014 08:59 DinoMight wrote:Show nested quote +On March 04 2014 08:27 pure.Wasted wrote:
If the design creates balance issues, those balance issues can be resolved. If it means Zealots will have to have 400 HP for the game to be fair, then so be it -- as long as it actually is fair. ... This is not imbalance. This is difference in design. If you don't want to micro against splash damage, don't play Terran. But don't expect that the races have to do everything exactly the same. The difference in how the races play is part of the charm of this game relative to other RTS games like Age of Empires, where only 1 unit/upgrade is different for each "race." Asymmetry = not all races are given the same tools Balance = all races can win if they use the tools they are given effectively I think you will find that as far as RTS games go SC2 is quite balanced given how a symmetrical it is.
He's arguing that the design of the races being fun and fair is paramount, not the "balance" per say.
Playing Terran is harder than playing Protoss, that isn't really up for debate. It doesn't make sense that Siege Tanks and Widow Mines do a large amount of friendly fire to the user's own units, while Colossi and Banelings do not. He's saying that it isn't fair that Protoss and Zerg are able to punish Terrans for small mistakes in ways that Terran cannot reciprocate.
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On March 04 2014 09:11 Lunareste wrote:Show nested quote +On March 04 2014 08:59 DinoMight wrote:On March 04 2014 08:27 pure.Wasted wrote:
If the design creates balance issues, those balance issues can be resolved. If it means Zealots will have to have 400 HP for the game to be fair, then so be it -- as long as it actually is fair. ... This is not imbalance. This is difference in design. If you don't want to micro against splash damage, don't play Terran. But don't expect that the races have to do everything exactly the same. The difference in how the races play is part of the charm of this game relative to other RTS games like Age of Empires, where only 1 unit/upgrade is different for each "race." Asymmetry = not all races are given the same tools Balance = all races can win if they use the tools they are given effectively I think you will find that as far as RTS games go SC2 is quite balanced given how a symmetrical it is. He's arguing that the design of the races being fun and fair is paramount, not the "balance" per say. Playing Terran is harder than playing Protoss, that isn't really up for debate. It doesn't make sense that Siege Tanks and Widow Mines do a large amount of friendly fire to the user's own units, while Colossi and Banelings do not. He's saying that it isn't fair that Protoss and Zerg are able to punish Terrans for small mistakes in ways that Terran cannot reciprocate.
I don't think Blizzard should balance the game based on what people find to be fun or peoples opinion on what is harder. I am sure there are some zergs out there who would love to talk about injects and how hard it was to get that down to a science. People are always going to have an ax to grind about the thing they do not do well at in the game and claim that the other races have it so easy. Terran and protoss are no different.
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hydra buff is stupid op... especially when every single zerg goes for hydra-ling... ya sure rush for colossus, but cmon... zealots and stalkers melt way too fast...
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On March 04 2014 09:43 Advantageous wrote:
hydra buff is stupid op... especially when every single zerg goes for hydra-ling... ya sure rush for colossus, but cmon... zealots and stalkers melt way too fast...
maybe your problem is you're fighting hydra-ling with literally the worst possible composition against it?? like if someone asked me for the perfect protoss army to fight with a bunch of hydra-ling i would probably say "zealots and stalkers." if you don't have good forcefield and sim city then it doesn't matter whether it's hydra-ling or 50 roaches, you're going to get rolled. force the hydra-ling to come to your base, then use photon overcharge + forcefields to trade acceptably while your tech comes out to push it away
hydra ling is meta against p because of stargate play, you can't just complain that when you open phoenix or a greedy third base 9/10 games zerg is going to start going into games planning to counter that
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EPT
