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Maniak_
France305 Posts
On February 16 2014 03:45 Zealously wrote: So most of what I'm seeing here is the French community pitchforking on behalf on the French organisations when their intial statements seem dubious at best =/ Only a (hopefully) small part of it  | ||
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Negius
Netherlands290 Posts
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OGamingTV SC2
France84 Posts
In 2013 Team aAa was allowed to Stream on Twitch during the 1st and 2nd WCS seasons, and tried to make it work with a minimalist production setup. The experience was far from being successful regarding community reach and financial viability. Team aAa droped the idea for Season 3, with fair reasons. Thoses concerns were the starting point of our discussions. The various actors (ESL and the French Structures) agreed the Twitch option was not viable for a french Community Streaming Project, in October 2013. In order to provide to an enlarged community with the highest production value, and give the best WCS experience to Starcraft 2 fans, we need to take into account faithful local actions and particularities. Our track record with international events (NASL's WCS 2013 S3 finals & RedBull BG) generated great feedbacks from our partners and French & worldwide communities. No agreement has been found with ESL since, despite our will to negociate and find a positive solution for every actor involved. However we had to renounce casting the first three WCS seasons, due to the latency in those ongoing discussions. We cannot comply with WCS 2014 following the same patern, which is why we call for community support. We have good faith community support can help reach this goal, and foster the passion we are all fighting for. We are eager to find a solution and pursue our common initial goal to keep strenghening the international Sc2 dynamics, Alexandre 'Pomf' Noci, Ogaming Chairman and CEO & Rémy "Llewellys" Chanson Director Millenium TV / Millenium Esport | ||
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miniskirt
France487 Posts
On February 16 2014 03:54 Negius wrote: To me this seems really easy: Twitch.tv has partnered with WCS, just like ESL. I think it is completely normal if you have the exclusive rights to broadcast WCS that other videostreaming sources are not allowed to do so. Can't really get what the fuss is all about... the thing is we're not even entirely sure it's about twitch/dailymotion since the initial statement doesn't describe the issue and just call for pitchfork on behalf of esl forbidding french from streaming (which according to carmack isn't true, and this is most likely true but we haven't heard from him either to tell us what the real issue is) and then kerri just gone mute (probably and preferably out of shame) not helping the french community's image not solving the issue at all hell, not even disclosing the real issue we know nothing apart from french organization being terrible at international PR, which we've always knew, it's just another confirmation [EDIT]oh, finally an answer, and still not clear on what is the real issue On February 16 2014 04:13 OGamingTV wrote: Thoses concerns were the starting point of our discussions. The various actors (ESL and the French Structures) agreed the Twitch option was not viable for a french Community Streaming Project, in October 2013. No agreement has been found with ESL since, despite our will to negociate and find a positive solution for every actor involved. However we had to renounce casting the first three WCS seasons, due to the latency in those ongoing discussions. We cannot comply with WCS 2014 following the same patern, which is why we call for community support. can you please say the reason you "call for our support" is that you refuse to stream on twitch and esl refuse to let you stream on DM (probably due to twitch sponsoring) and you want us to pressure esl into violating their agreement with twitch? | ||
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JustPassingBy
10776 Posts
On February 16 2014 04:13 OGamingTV wrote: The offer to cast on Twitch.tv was made by ESL from the beginning of the WCS 2013, approximatively 9 months ago. In 2013 Team aAa was allowed to Stream on Twitch during the 1st and 2nd WCS seasons, and tried to make it work with a minimalist production setup. The experience was far from being successful regarding community reach and financial viability. Team aAa droped the idea for Season 3, with fair reasons. Thoses concerns were the starting point of our discussions. The various actors (ESL and the French Structures) agreed the Twitch option was not viable for a french Community Streaming Project, in October 2013. In order to provide to an enlarged community with the highest production value, and give the best WCS experience to Starcraft 2 fans, we need to take into account faithful local actions and particularities. Our track record with international events (NASL's WCS 2013 S3 finals & RedBull BG) generated great feedbacks from our partners and French & worldwide communities. No agreement has been found with ESL since, despite our will to negociate and find a positive solution for every actor involved. However we had to renounce casting the first three WCS seasons, due to the latency in those ongoing discussions. We cannot comply with WCS 2014 following the same patern, which is why we call for community support. We have good faith community support can help reach this goal, and foster the passion we are all fighting for. We are eager to find a solution and pursue our common initial goal to keep strenghening the international Sc2 dynamics, Alexandre 'Pomf' Noci, Ogaming Chairman and CEO & Rémy "Llewellys" Chanson Director Millenium TV / Millenium Esport Obviously, I am not nearly as well informed in this matter as the people involved, but here are my two remarks: 1. ESL is not alone on WCS EU. Even if there is nothing against you streaming outside of Twitch.tv, Twitch.tv might not want to see that and enforce that all streams happen on Twitch exclusively. 2. Are you persistant on streaming on Dailymotion? If yes, then it's not surprising that no compromise can be found. Even though I understand your standpoint of wanting to stream on Dailymotion, I can also understand of Twitch enforcing that all streams are supposed to happen on their plattform. I really do hope that Dailymotion can grow and develop to be a solid competitor to Twitch. However approaching Twitch events and throwing a tantrum if they cannot be streamed on Dailymotion does not seem very adult like to me... | ||
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Melliflue
United Kingdom1389 Posts
On February 16 2014 04:13 OGamingTV wrote: The offer to cast on Twitch.tv was made by ESL from the beginning of the WCS 2013, approximatively 9 months ago. In 2013 Team aAa was allowed to Stream on Twitch during the 1st and 2nd WCS seasons, and tried to make it work with a minimalist production setup. The experience was far from being successful regarding community reach and financial viability. Team aAa droped the idea for Season 3, with fair reasons. Thoses concerns were the starting point of our discussions. The various actors (ESL and the French Structures) agreed the Twitch option was not viable for a french Community Streaming Project, in October 2013. In order to provide to an enlarged community with the highest production value, and give the best WCS experience to Starcraft 2 fans, we need to take into account faithful local actions and particularities. Our track record with international events (NASL's WCS 2013 S3 finals & RedBull BG) generated great feedbacks from our partners and French & worldwide communities. No agreement has been found with ESL since, despite our will to negociate and find a positive solution for every actor involved. However we had to renounce casting the first three WCS seasons, due to the latency in those ongoing discussions. We cannot comply with WCS 2014 following the same patern, which is why we call for community support. We have good faith community support can help reach this goal, and foster the passion we are all fighting for. We are eager to find a solution and pursue our common initial goal to keep strenghening the international Sc2 dynamics, Alexandre 'Pomf' Noci, Ogaming Chairman and CEO & Rémy "Llewellys" Chanson Director Millenium TV / Millenium Esport You're asking for support from the community but I still don't understand what the problem is. What is holding up the negotiations? Is it the twitch vs dailymotion issue? Or is there some other problem? If it is that twitch don't won't you using dailymotion and have a contractual agreement with Blizzard (or ESL or whoever it would be) about WCS EU then I fully understand twitch enforcing what they are entitled to. It sucks for the French scene but I don't know what the community can do. The only solution to this (hypothetical) twitch deal-breaker would be dailymotion (or someone on their behalf) paying for the rights to stream the WCS EU. Possibly by striking a deal with twitch, or by trying to negotiate with twitch and Blizzard (or ESL or whoever it would be) so that twitch pays less to Blizzard but don't have exclusive rights in France. | ||
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GL999et1000
France229 Posts
Also, all french companies which have a webtv Eclypsia, Millenium, aAa, O'Gaming, are based on the income of streaming on Dailymotion. They are employing professionnal streamers and this would not be possible if they were forced to stream on Twitch. Streaming WCS cost a lot because these companies must pay streamers for all the time spent to cast. But this is not cost effective, they would not make any profit. It is more profitable to stream on Dailymotion an other game. This is really stupid. There is no problem for LCS, LCS are streamed by aAa O'Gaming Eclypsia and Millenium on Dailymotion. And LCS are also produced by ESL. | ||
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JustPassingBy
10776 Posts
On February 16 2014 05:30 GL999et1000 wrote: Twitch do not remunerate enough french streamers. Twitch is not very involved in french market, they do not have a lot of contracts with french advertisers. Sometimes there is no add to send, then no money for the streamer. Also, all french companies which have a webtv Eclypsia, Millenium, aAa, O'Gaming, are based on the income of streaming on Dailymotion. They are employing professionnal streamers and this would not be possible if they were forced to stream on Twitch. Streaming WCS cost a lot because these companies must pay streamers for all the time spent to cast. But this is not cost effective, they would not make any profit. It is more profitable to stream on Dailymotion an other game. This is really stupid. There is no problem for LCS, LCS are streamed by aAa O'Gaming Eclypsia and Millenium on Dailymotion. And LCS are also produced by ESL. Stop blaming ESL. ESL is not the problem, as you said they allow streaming on Dailymotion in other events they produce. Twitch is an official partner of WCS and I imagine them enforcing the rules. | ||
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iknowthetrue
13 Posts
Blizzard wanted to supplement his end of month selling her ass twitch, now he pays. | ||
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Nouar
France3270 Posts
On February 16 2014 04:13 OGamingTV wrote: The offer to cast on Twitch.tv was made by ESL from the beginning of the WCS 2013, approximatively 9 months ago. In 2013 Team aAa was allowed to Stream on Twitch during the 1st and 2nd WCS seasons, and tried to make it work with a minimalist production setup. The experience was far from being successful regarding community reach and financial viability. Team aAa droped the idea for Season 3, with fair reasons. Thoses concerns were the starting point of our discussions. The various actors (ESL and the French Structures) agreed the Twitch option was not viable for a french Community Streaming Project, in October 2013. In order to provide to an enlarged community with the highest production value, and give the best WCS experience to Starcraft 2 fans, we need to take into account faithful local actions and particularities. Our track record with international events (NASL's WCS 2013 S3 finals & RedBull BG) generated great feedbacks from our partners and French & worldwide communities. No agreement has been found with ESL since, despite our will to negociate and find a positive solution for every actor involved. However we had to renounce casting the first three WCS seasons, due to the latency in those ongoing discussions. We cannot comply with WCS 2014 following the same patern, which is why we call for community support. We have good faith community support can help reach this goal, and foster the passion we are all fighting for. We are eager to find a solution and pursue our common initial goal to keep strenghening the international Sc2 dynamics, Alexandre 'Pomf' Noci, Ogaming Chairman and CEO & Rémy "Llewellys" Chanson Director Millenium TV / Millenium Esport And what do you want us to do... "Community support" as in : "Yeah, gogogo french casters !! Hmmm... We're rooting for you ! Why, I don't know, but... hell yeah !" Lwl you usually are a lot more clear in defining what the problem is... How can you expect to get useful support when people don't even know what the root of the problem is ? DM instead of Twitch IS a vital problem in France since Twitch is so unwatchable even with badass DSL lines, even without taking into account the contracts and sponsoring you get with DM. If you feel you need to make a statement, make a fucking statement, with facts in it, not weird "hey we are forbidden to stream" when you're not (well not completely), or "support us" when you don't say in WHAT. Or the best you're gonna get is an even weirder "Hey, ... hmmm yeah hu, good luck, go for it !!!" Is it so fucking hard to just tell plainly that French viewers are reluctant to go on twitch, plus we have a contract with dailymotion, can you let us bring what we have seen over the last year work for us, to the french community who is eager to watch your WCS, hey look : all these guys are supporting us and want us to cast those games. Instead of being awkward. Thank you. (If DM is indeed the problem) (btw, fuck Twitch and exclusivity. Anti-trust laws are there for a reason, specifically "Abus de position dominante" here in France.) | ||
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Hondelul
1999 Posts
On February 15 2014 04:54 SC2Kerri wrote: Dear Starcraft II community, My name is Sebastien « Kerri », I am the Starcraft II Tournament Director at O’Gaming TV. Today, ESL Decision was given to us: Access to the WCS is forbidden to French organizations. On February 16 2014 04:13 OGamingTV wrote: No agreement has been found with ESL since, despite our will to negociate and find a positive solution for every actor involved. However we had to renounce casting the first three WCS seasons, due to the latency in those ongoing discussions. We cannot comply with WCS 2014 following the same patern, which is why we call for community support. Alexandre 'Pomf' Noci, Ogaming Chairman and CEO & Rémy "Llewellys" Chanson Director Millenium TV / Millenium Esport These are for me totally different statements. To say "they forbid french organizations" and then changing to "we could not find an agreement" seems just like drama mongering. If I would be Carmac that would leave a sour taste... As I can always see huge interest in French stream I hope it resolves with all sides satisfied, but the way you started this feels wrong. Perhaps you felt pressured because little time left. | ||
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Radiag
Germany28 Posts
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Lonyo
United Kingdom3884 Posts
On February 16 2014 09:55 Radiag wrote: Its crazy how many French ppl say that the french scene would die if Millenium and O'gaming dont get their money through casting WCS, EVEN IF they would die off because of that (which i dont want to happen!), then there are still the english streams and other languages, take for example Russia, are there always Russian streams of the WCS, NO! Is the Russian SC2 scene dead, hell NO! If you cant agree to support the Partners of a tournament you shouldnt be allowed to stream it, simple as that! If Buisness would work this way the Financial World would've collapsed long ago. Maybe if the partners of the tournament were worth supporting, they would. Twitch should NOT be the only stream allowed for WCS or any event. It is not good enough as a streaming platform to be the only one available. Even if they want to be the "partner" of WCS, they shouldn't be allowed, simple as that. Maybe when Twitch is good enough to be the only stream required then they could be the partner and forbid other platforms, but as it is, Twitch is not good enough, and other streaming platforms should be allowed. It would also give Twitch an incentive to actually offer a worthwhile service. As it is they are effectively buying their way to controlling WCS by being the "partner". While I don't care about the French stream or how much money French casters make, saying that we should support the partners of a tournament just because they are the partner of the tournament is idiotic. TWITCH IS NOT GOOD ENOUGH TO DESERVE SUPPORT. WHY SHOULD I SUPPORT THEM? | ||
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Faust852
Luxembourg4004 Posts
The only example they gave was aAa streaming wcs S1 and 2, and having bad viewership ? WHO ARE YOU KIDDING ? aAa is a totally irrelevant and unprofessional structure, they have a fucking low viewer base to begin with, and they never stream with DM anyway. So as I said yesterday, you are just some ugly greedy ass that want money money and money. User was warned for this post | ||
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Melliflue
United Kingdom1389 Posts
On February 16 2014 17:47 Lonyo wrote: Twitch should NOT be the only stream allowed for WCS or any event. It is not good enough as a streaming platform to be the only one available. Even if they want to be the "partner" of WCS, they shouldn't be allowed, simple as that. Why not? Pretty much every sporting event is connected to a single TV channel, although this works by country rather than EU as a whole. It may be that an event is shown on multiple channels but then that would have been part of the agreement and it is not the case that any channel can broadcast coverage. Twitch have done a similar thing for streaming WCS. Maybe when Twitch is good enough to be the only stream required then they could be the partner and forbid other platforms, but as it is, Twitch is not good enough, and other streaming platforms should be allowed. It would also give Twitch an incentive to actually offer a worthwhile service. As it is they are effectively buying their way to controlling WCS by being the "partner". This is how business often works. To do something about this you would need either the EU or the French government to intervene. The alternative would be the French community convincing Blizzard that it would be in their best interests to allow streaming on dailymotion in France and so then Blizzard would make a different deal with twitch (and dailymotion) when the current deal expires. But that would be restricted to the French community rather than the whole community because it would be an issue of what is best for Blizzard in France, and so the opinions of people outside France are kinda irrelevant. Even then, OGaming has not gone about this in a very sympathetic way. While I don't care about the French stream or how much money French casters make, saying that we should support the partners of a tournament just because they are the partner of the tournament is idiotic. TWITCH IS NOT GOOD ENOUGH TO DESERVE SUPPORT. WHY SHOULD I SUPPORT THEM? You don't have to if you don't want to. You can choose to not watch WCS. If enough people in France choose to not watch WCS EU (and enough people in France explain to Blizzard why) then maybe Blizzard will change things when the current deal with twitch expires. You do not have to support twitch, but you also do not have the right to watch WCS on whatever streaming platform you desire. If Blizzard and twitch have an agreement that prohibits WCS from being streamed outside of twitch then your options are (1) watch WCS on twitch (2) don't watch WCS. | ||
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iknowthetrue
13 Posts
For those who want a French stream. For those who want the sc2 community survive. For all that must be reacted blizzard and esl. I suggest boycotting ESL stream and watch Take.tv For all those who say they do not understand German, then you understand why the French community want a French stream. User was warned for this post | ||
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.swz.
73 Posts
I think everyone knows that blizzard/twitch have a clear stance on streaming. If you do not use twitch: game over. Simple as that. This whole issue should be buried as fast as possible as it is just calling out for a random pitchfork hunt. Not classy at all. | ||
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RouaF
France4121 Posts
On February 15 2014 12:14 Boucot wrote: Last year ESL (and not Blizzard) gave the exclusive rights to aAa on Twitch without asking to the other websites. The average viewer count was something like 200-300 viewers the good days (it would have been at least 6-7000 on O'Gaming or Millenium). Fun fact : ESL France's boss is the creator of aAa. This is just false. Sunscorcher did not create aAa. | ||
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a3den
704 Posts
- Twitch service has been bad in western Europe and France for quite some time, it costs money to deploy infrastructure there and they can't monetize as well because too many languages (it's much more work to fill ads for EU compared to the US market). EU is somewhat low-prio to them even if they don't admit it (but did you notice how their last infographics were us-centric ?). - Most french orga have a sort of exclusivity with DM, they have to because otherwise they'd get shit CPM and few viewers (twitch's bandwidth is ass, etc...). French viewers used to complain about no double streams (dm+twitch) to Ogaming during the last year, that's how necessary DM is to some french esports viewers (depending on their ISP, it can make matters worse). Obviously DM servers are in France/EU so DM is watchable. - Technically, both Mill and Ogaming has been forbidden to stream on the only stream service they can use contractually, so this is not a lie. Nor is what Carmac said. If Mill or Ogaming can't stream it, there is no french stream coverage happening, simple as that. Personally, I chose option 2 aka "don't watch WCS". I don't like to fight against lag, that's a losing proposition. At least we still have french dota2 coverage that uses DM, so I can watch some esports. | ||
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JacobShock
Denmark2485 Posts
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