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As a Terran-biased spectator, I'm not sold on the Blink change. While I don't think it'll make Blink underpowered by any means, it does cut down on the unit's microability without really helping against PvT Blink "All In." Earlier someone proposed only allowing Stalkers to Blink one level up or down at a time and I think that would be a better catch-all solution.
On February 11 2014 14:23 BronzeKnee wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2014 14:10 AnonymousSC2 wrote:Yeah Mana is extremely biased. He thinks its ok for widowmine drops to kill 1 probe at a time? It's stupid. Very stupid. It was like BFH. It was never really an issue until Terrans started doing it to each other, then suddenly it became a big issue. Except it was always an issue. I don't know how many times I faced masses of Hellions in TvP trying to kill my workers, dropped or not. Then people do it in TvT, and suddenly it gets changed... it was imbalanced all a long.
4Gate becomes too good in PvP, Protoss get the earliest attacking flying unit in the game with 14 range, PO, Time Warp, and Recall.
BFH becomes too good in TvT, Terrans get... nerfed BFH.
Sounds about right. (Not saying that they shouldn't have been nerfed, though.)
What's wrong with WM harass? WM drops aren't the most skill-intensive strategy in the game, but they certainly take more skill to execute from a Terran than Oracle flybys or Storm drops do from a Protoss, because invariably you end up separately controlling a group of Marines and two WMs who have to burrow in good spots asafp or they die to Stalkers/MSC/PO.
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On February 11 2014 14:52 vthree wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2014 14:46 Entropy137 wrote:
As it is right now, blight stalkers can only barely get away from stimmed concussive bio by running and blinking every time it comes off cooldown, and even still, if the terran remains in pursuit, they can usually snag a stalker per blink. Increasing the cooldown of blink will destroy this relationship, and will allow any group of blink stalkers caught out on the map to get chased and gunned down by concussive marauders. The blink nerf is a massive nerf that will affect many aspects of each matchup. The only phase blink seems to be a problem is the pre-stim/medivac phase of tvp. To be fair, having blink stalkers being always able to get away after targeting down a unit without any way for the terran to respond was kind of weird, especially when protoss has shield regen.
Is that really that weird? Being able to retreat is a key part of being aggressive, if you can't retreat you have to guarantee that you can win any fight which is why both stim and speed medivacs exist in their current form.
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On February 11 2014 14:57 Dingobloo wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2014 14:52 vthree wrote:On February 11 2014 14:46 Entropy137 wrote:
As it is right now, blight stalkers can only barely get away from stimmed concussive bio by running and blinking every time it comes off cooldown, and even still, if the terran remains in pursuit, they can usually snag a stalker per blink. Increasing the cooldown of blink will destroy this relationship, and will allow any group of blink stalkers caught out on the map to get chased and gunned down by concussive marauders. The blink nerf is a massive nerf that will affect many aspects of each matchup. The only phase blink seems to be a problem is the pre-stim/medivac phase of tvp. To be fair, having blink stalkers being always able to get away after targeting down a unit without any way for the terran to respond was kind of weird, especially when protoss has shield regen. Is that really that weird? Being able to retreat is a key part of being aggressive, if you can't retreat you have to guarantee that you can win any fight which is why both stim and speed medivacs exist in their current form.
You are talking about doing damage without taking any damage being totally fair. I think that it is totally fair that you might lose some units if you are being aggressive. There should be defenders advantage and maybe toss players are too used to having total high ground vision basically for free with the MSC.
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On February 11 2014 14:57 Dingobloo wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2014 14:52 vthree wrote:On February 11 2014 14:46 Entropy137 wrote:
As it is right now, blight stalkers can only barely get away from stimmed concussive bio by running and blinking every time it comes off cooldown, and even still, if the terran remains in pursuit, they can usually snag a stalker per blink. Increasing the cooldown of blink will destroy this relationship, and will allow any group of blink stalkers caught out on the map to get chased and gunned down by concussive marauders. The blink nerf is a massive nerf that will affect many aspects of each matchup. The only phase blink seems to be a problem is the pre-stim/medivac phase of tvp. To be fair, having blink stalkers being always able to get away after targeting down a unit without any way for the terran to respond was kind of weird, especially when protoss has shield regen. Is that really that weird? Being able to retreat is a key part of being aggressive, if you can't retreat you have to guarantee that you can win any fight which is why both stim and speed medivacs exist in their current form.
If you don't want the Blink Stalker "All In" opening to be a COMMITMENT for the Protoss, then don't give it the game-ending power of a committed all-in.
If a Zerg goes for a Roach Nydus bust and it doesn't work, he's done. He can't just "retreat."
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On February 11 2014 14:57 Dingobloo wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2014 14:52 vthree wrote:On February 11 2014 14:46 Entropy137 wrote:
As it is right now, blight stalkers can only barely get away from stimmed concussive bio by running and blinking every time it comes off cooldown, and even still, if the terran remains in pursuit, they can usually snag a stalker per blink. Increasing the cooldown of blink will destroy this relationship, and will allow any group of blink stalkers caught out on the map to get chased and gunned down by concussive marauders. The blink nerf is a massive nerf that will affect many aspects of each matchup. The only phase blink seems to be a problem is the pre-stim/medivac phase of tvp. To be fair, having blink stalkers being always able to get away after targeting down a unit without any way for the terran to respond was kind of weird, especially when protoss has shield regen. Is that really that weird? Being able to retreat is a key part of being aggressive, if you can't retreat you have to guarantee that you can win any fight which is why both stim and speed medivacs exist in their current form.
It isn't a retreat though, it's guaranteed damage with a guarantee of no (permanent) damage in return. If you're out on the map with a group of units and you decide you want to try and snipe off an enemy unit or structure and then get out, there ought to be some risk involved in choosing to do so. Of course, units like stalkers are pretty shit in a straight up fight, which is why Protoss has so many get out of jail free cards like force fields, blink, and recall.
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Northern Ireland27464 Posts
Blink stalkers are all that Protoss can really retreat from stimmed bio, it's another reason IMO that the MSC aka 'The Ultimate Bandaid' was introduced.
Regardless we'll see if it stays and what impact it will have. I just feel it's a dumb change, informed by legitimate complaints about Blink builds when it is NOT the main problem with said builds.
That said, I don't know wtf the balance team are doing anymore anyway. MSC vision change was what the majority wanted last patch and though it didn't make it in the fact that RIDICULOUS hydra gas reduction was even brought up...
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On February 11 2014 15:03 pure.Wasted wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2014 14:57 Dingobloo wrote:On February 11 2014 14:52 vthree wrote:On February 11 2014 14:46 Entropy137 wrote:
As it is right now, blight stalkers can only barely get away from stimmed concussive bio by running and blinking every time it comes off cooldown, and even still, if the terran remains in pursuit, they can usually snag a stalker per blink. Increasing the cooldown of blink will destroy this relationship, and will allow any group of blink stalkers caught out on the map to get chased and gunned down by concussive marauders. The blink nerf is a massive nerf that will affect many aspects of each matchup. The only phase blink seems to be a problem is the pre-stim/medivac phase of tvp. To be fair, having blink stalkers being always able to get away after targeting down a unit without any way for the terran to respond was kind of weird, especially when protoss has shield regen. Is that really that weird? Being able to retreat is a key part of being aggressive, if you can't retreat you have to guarantee that you can win any fight which is why both stim and speed medivacs exist in their current form. If you don't want the Blink Stalker "All In" opening to be a COMMITMENT for the Protoss, then don't give it the game-ending power of a committed all-in. If a Zerg goes for a Roach Nydus bust and it doesn't work, he's done. He can't just "retreat."
No but if he goes for a burrow roach movement attack and gets forcefield, he can escape for example, there are plenty of examples in the game where abilities give you different ways of retreating, it's part of the way aggressive timings are meant to overlap.
if you guys are telling me you seriously believe that blink gets out "free" vs stim bio right now, I think you're kidding, it's pre-stim that's the problem, and where it's too strong, but this blink change affects both.
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1001 YEARS KESPAJAIL22272 Posts
On February 11 2014 15:05 Wombat_NI wrote:
That said, I don't know wtf the balance team are doing anymore anyway. MSC vision change was what the majority wanted last patch and though it didn't make it in the fact that RIDICULOUS hydra gas reduction was even brought up...
Balance is a lot more complicated that TL.net users think. If you don't try it, you'll never truly know how it will affect all the different matchups and their current metagames. I'm glad that they are using the balance test maps to try radical changes; at least it shows they are willing to try something.
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On February 11 2014 14:57 Dingobloo wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2014 14:52 vthree wrote:On February 11 2014 14:46 Entropy137 wrote:
As it is right now, blight stalkers can only barely get away from stimmed concussive bio by running and blinking every time it comes off cooldown, and even still, if the terran remains in pursuit, they can usually snag a stalker per blink. Increasing the cooldown of blink will destroy this relationship, and will allow any group of blink stalkers caught out on the map to get chased and gunned down by concussive marauders. The blink nerf is a massive nerf that will affect many aspects of each matchup. The only phase blink seems to be a problem is the pre-stim/medivac phase of tvp. To be fair, having blink stalkers being always able to get away after targeting down a unit without any way for the terran to respond was kind of weird, especially when protoss has shield regen. Is that really that weird? Being able to retreat is a key part of being aggressive, if you can't retreat you have to guarantee that you can win any fight which is why both stim and speed medivacs exist in their current form.
It isn't just about retreating, it is about taking no damage regardless of the action from your opponent. With marines, you can still get caught by forcefields. In TvZ, picking up has the risk of mutas picking the medivacs off.
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On February 11 2014 15:06 Dingobloo wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2014 15:03 pure.Wasted wrote:On February 11 2014 14:57 Dingobloo wrote:On February 11 2014 14:52 vthree wrote:On February 11 2014 14:46 Entropy137 wrote:
As it is right now, blight stalkers can only barely get away from stimmed concussive bio by running and blinking every time it comes off cooldown, and even still, if the terran remains in pursuit, they can usually snag a stalker per blink. Increasing the cooldown of blink will destroy this relationship, and will allow any group of blink stalkers caught out on the map to get chased and gunned down by concussive marauders. The blink nerf is a massive nerf that will affect many aspects of each matchup. The only phase blink seems to be a problem is the pre-stim/medivac phase of tvp. To be fair, having blink stalkers being always able to get away after targeting down a unit without any way for the terran to respond was kind of weird, especially when protoss has shield regen. Is that really that weird? Being able to retreat is a key part of being aggressive, if you can't retreat you have to guarantee that you can win any fight which is why both stim and speed medivacs exist in their current form. If you don't want the Blink Stalker "All In" opening to be a COMMITMENT for the Protoss, then don't give it the game-ending power of a committed all-in. If a Zerg goes for a Roach Nydus bust and it doesn't work, he's done. He can't just "retreat." No but if he goes for a burrow roach movement attack and gets forcefield, he can escape for example, there are plenty of examples in the game where abilities give you different ways of retreating, it's part of the way aggressive timings are meant to overlap. if you guys are telling me you seriously believe that blink gets out "free" vs stim bio right now, I think you're kidding, it's pre-stim that's the problem, and where it's too strong, but this blink change affects both.
Are you seeing some games that I'm not where unscouted "burrow roach movement attack" pushes are killing Zergs? Cause I'm talking about actual strats. Any pressure that has a serious chance to kill the opponent has a serious economic drawback -- a Cloak Banshee opening has to do damage, a Baneling bust has to kill or do very serious damage, a Nydus Roach bust has to kill or do very serious damage.
edit: I already said I'd prefer it if you couldn't Blink two levels.
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On February 11 2014 15:06 Dingobloo wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2014 15:03 pure.Wasted wrote:On February 11 2014 14:57 Dingobloo wrote:On February 11 2014 14:52 vthree wrote:On February 11 2014 14:46 Entropy137 wrote:
As it is right now, blight stalkers can only barely get away from stimmed concussive bio by running and blinking every time it comes off cooldown, and even still, if the terran remains in pursuit, they can usually snag a stalker per blink. Increasing the cooldown of blink will destroy this relationship, and will allow any group of blink stalkers caught out on the map to get chased and gunned down by concussive marauders. The blink nerf is a massive nerf that will affect many aspects of each matchup. The only phase blink seems to be a problem is the pre-stim/medivac phase of tvp. To be fair, having blink stalkers being always able to get away after targeting down a unit without any way for the terran to respond was kind of weird, especially when protoss has shield regen. Is that really that weird? Being able to retreat is a key part of being aggressive, if you can't retreat you have to guarantee that you can win any fight which is why both stim and speed medivacs exist in their current form. If you don't want the Blink Stalker "All In" opening to be a COMMITMENT for the Protoss, then don't give it the game-ending power of a committed all-in. If a Zerg goes for a Roach Nydus bust and it doesn't work, he's done. He can't just "retreat." No but if he goes for a burrow roach movement attack and gets forcefield, he can escape for example, there are plenty of examples in the game where abilities give you different ways of retreating, it's part of the way aggressive timings are meant to overlap. if you guys are telling me you seriously believe that blink gets out "free" vs stim bio right now, I think you're kidding, it's pre-stim that's the problem, and where it's too strong, but this blink change affects both.
But it is not guaranteed that yo can get away without losing anything. If toss has an observer you can bypass the FF but you still take damage. You were talking about how blink-stalkers should be able to escape without taking losses, basically you said that they should be able to do damage without taking damage which is totally stupid.
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Northern Ireland27464 Posts
On February 11 2014 15:07 lichter wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2014 15:05 Wombat_NI wrote:
That said, I don't know wtf the balance team are doing anymore anyway. MSC vision change was what the majority wanted last patch and though it didn't make it in the fact that RIDICULOUS hydra gas reduction was even brought up... Balance is a lot more complicated that TL.net users think. If you don't try it, you'll never truly know how it will affect all the different matchups and their current metagames. I'm glad that they are using the balance test maps to try radical changes; at least it shows they are willing to try something.
It's only the balance test map, but even suggesting that hydra change was insane.
If they want to do radical, revert some previous patch changes that don't make sense in the moden era, but still remain for no good reason. Stim research time for one, gives Terrans an easier time holding certain allins, doesn't enable them to just kill the other races with stim timings given huge map distance.
Sorry to bitch continually btw :p I just find their approach annoying. Their fix to BL/Infestor was to give Protoss a tool that completely annihilates the comp to the degree that it's near useless now
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On February 11 2014 15:13 Wombat_NI wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2014 15:07 lichter wrote:On February 11 2014 15:05 Wombat_NI wrote:
That said, I don't know wtf the balance team are doing anymore anyway. MSC vision change was what the majority wanted last patch and though it didn't make it in the fact that RIDICULOUS hydra gas reduction was even brought up... Balance is a lot more complicated that TL.net users think. If you don't try it, you'll never truly know how it will affect all the different matchups and their current metagames. I'm glad that they are using the balance test maps to try radical changes; at least it shows they are willing to try something. Sorry to bitch continually btw :p I just find their approach annoying. Their fix to BL/Infestor was to give Protoss a tool that completely annihilates the comp to the degree that it's near useless now
Weeelllll, that might not have been the best example, because, you know... BL/Infestor.
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Northern Ireland27464 Posts
On February 11 2014 15:15 pure.Wasted wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2014 15:13 Wombat_NI wrote:On February 11 2014 15:07 lichter wrote:On February 11 2014 15:05 Wombat_NI wrote:
That said, I don't know wtf the balance team are doing anymore anyway. MSC vision change was what the majority wanted last patch and though it didn't make it in the fact that RIDICULOUS hydra gas reduction was even brought up... Balance is a lot more complicated that TL.net users think. If you don't try it, you'll never truly know how it will affect all the different matchups and their current metagames. I'm glad that they are using the balance test maps to try radical changes; at least it shows they are willing to try something. Sorry to bitch continually btw :p I just find their approach annoying. Their fix to BL/Infestor was to give Protoss a tool that completely annihilates the comp to the degree that it's near useless now Weeelllll, that might not have been the best example, because, you know... BL/Infestor.
Well no and yes. People may have hated that comp, myself included but they just made airtoss far too good against it rather than look to keep it in the game but make it less potent. Fungal rework was a start, I wanted them to try broodlings without collision/attack priority. After that maybe give Protoss an anti broodllord unit
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On February 11 2014 15:21 Wombat_NI wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2014 15:15 pure.Wasted wrote:On February 11 2014 15:13 Wombat_NI wrote:On February 11 2014 15:07 lichter wrote:On February 11 2014 15:05 Wombat_NI wrote:
That said, I don't know wtf the balance team are doing anymore anyway. MSC vision change was what the majority wanted last patch and though it didn't make it in the fact that RIDICULOUS hydra gas reduction was even brought up... Balance is a lot more complicated that TL.net users think. If you don't try it, you'll never truly know how it will affect all the different matchups and their current metagames. I'm glad that they are using the balance test maps to try radical changes; at least it shows they are willing to try something. Sorry to bitch continually btw :p I just find their approach annoying. Their fix to BL/Infestor was to give Protoss a tool that completely annihilates the comp to the degree that it's near useless now Weeelllll, that might not have been the best example, because, you know... BL/Infestor. Well no and yes. People may have hated that comp, myself included but they just made airtoss far too good against it rather than look to keep it in the game but make it less potent. Fungal rework was a start, I wanted them to try broodlings without collision/attack priority. After that maybe give Protoss an anti broodllord unit
Yeah, but what about FG? Do you really miss fifteen Infestors chain-Fungalling everything in sight? I don't have a hard on for removing free units from the game the way some people do, but if the cost of Brood Lords being completely standard is mass Infestors being completely standard, I'm going to give it two pragmatic thumbs down.
Now if you want to see reworked BL/something else become standard, that's another story...
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Northern Ireland27464 Posts
Fungal growth was retarded, specially the instacast version. Part of the problem that was underlooked IMO was quite how much broodlings screwed with pathing and targetting as well, coulda been at least tried out.
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i think the widow mine buff will cause many more drops to happen in pvt. hope it won't kill zealot archon opening, by forcing you to go robo all the time for obs.
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China6332 Posts
I don't know, but maybe we shouldn't have so many maps that Stalkers can blink in so easily in the first place.
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On February 11 2014 15:38 digmouse wrote:
I don't know, but maybe we shouldn't have so many maps that Stalkers can blink in so easily in the first place.
Yes, so much this^
With different maps blink all-ins can be nerfed without changing the actual unit
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On February 11 2014 15:38 digmouse wrote:
I don't know, but maybe we shouldn't have so many maps that Stalkers can blink in so easily in the first place.
And there's the rub.
As a question, is the stalker's blink completely height independent? I.e. it doesn't matter if say you're 5 levels higher than the "low ground"? I assume it is.
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EPT
