On February 11 2014 11:56 BisuDagger wrote: Blink is one of the cool, micro intensive skills in the game. It is a skill that is clear to see when done flawlessly. I'd be super saddened as a spectator to see it nerfed. It is definitely not the way to go.
The thing people forget sometimes, is that to some of us Starcraft is a spectator sport. And fixing balance issues wrong can sometimes hurt the experience. Hellbat drops era was one of the most exciting periods of SC2 as a viewer. Innovation was amazing to watch hitting several bases simultaneously and actually had a chance to shine as a micro player. I believe nerfing blink is a step in that wrong direction for spectators.
Blink will remain spectacular for audiences still because it's always been the micro itself that was amazing to watch. There's an added 5 second delay after that amazing spectacle - but that would not be noticable to spectators at all.
If armies get run over more easily because blink isn't an option for another 5 seconds then it looks pretty dumb too. 5 seconds is huge.
So you cherry pick a vod of a random 4v4(?) game where the Protoss players do nothing but blink micro.
5 seconds is huge, yes, it makes blinking to enemy bases a much heavier commitment. But again, pure stalker armies are not the norm except in TvP all-ins - and I don't know if most people find that kind of play exciting.
Armies getting run over more easily because of the extra 5 cooldown on blink? That's just hyperbole.
It is not a hyperbole. In SC2 battles happen very quickly, units die much faster, and damage output is great. Blinking away from a speedling attack only to have them catch up and have to wait a whole 5 seconds extra taking hits before blinking back again is not an exaggeration. I am by no means trying to convince you to see it my way. I am just stating how I'm going to view it as someone who has been spectating starcraft for nearly a decade.
As someone who has been spectating games with blink stalkers for as long as they have existed, speedlings wreck blinkstalkers regardless of 5 seconds. Protoss have tools in their arsenal to deal with speedlings that do not require 100% cooldown usage on blink stalkers. And that's why it's hyperbole to say it will ruin blink play for spectators. Protoss reaction to speedlings is either zealots, or aoe.
Neither am I trying to convince only you, per say, but presenting counter arguments to your stance on this public forum for the consideration of our fellow posters and readers.
We shall see dear friend. I hope you're right if this change gets added. I'm such a fan of buffing the opposing races rather then nerfing the one race. I hate to see abilities weakened. When snipe became useless in WoL after that epic TvZ between July and MVP on metalopolis I died a little inside.
I really do agree like the first proposed WM nerf I don't think the FUll Nerf will go through. ..... I think 12-13 seconds MIGHT be ok even that might be a bit much....
On February 11 2014 11:56 BisuDagger wrote: Blink is one of the cool, micro intensive skills in the game. It is a skill that is clear to see when done flawlessly. I'd be super saddened as a spectator to see it nerfed. It is definitely not the way to go.
The thing people forget sometimes, is that to some of us Starcraft is a spectator sport. And fixing balance issues wrong can sometimes hurt the experience. Hellbat drops era was one of the most exciting periods of SC2 as a viewer. Innovation was amazing to watch hitting several bases simultaneously and actually had a chance to shine as a micro player. I believe nerfing blink is a step in that wrong direction for spectators.
Blink will remain spectacular for audiences still because it's always been the micro itself that was amazing to watch. There's an added 5 second delay after that amazing spectacle - but that would not be noticable to spectators at all.
If armies get run over more easily because blink isn't an option for another 5 seconds then it looks pretty dumb too. 5 seconds is huge.
So you cherry pick a vod of a random 4v4(?) game where the Protoss players do nothing but blink micro.
5 seconds is huge, yes, it makes blinking to enemy bases a much heavier commitment. But again, pure stalker armies are not the norm except in TvP all-ins - and I don't know if most people find that kind of play exciting.
Armies getting run over more easily because of the extra 5 cooldown on blink? That's just hyperbole.
It is not a hyperbole. In SC2 battles happen very quickly, units die much faster, and damage output is great. Blinking away from a speedling attack only to have them catch up and have to wait a whole 5 seconds extra taking hits before blinking back again is not an exaggeration. I am by no means trying to convince you to see it my way. I am just stating how I'm going to view it as someone who has been spectating starcraft for nearly a decade.
As someone who has been spectating games with blink stalkers for as long as they have existed, speedlings wreck blinkstalkers regardless of 5 seconds. Protoss have tools in their arsenal to deal with speedlings that do not require 100% cooldown usage on blink stalkers. And that's why it's hyperbole to say it will ruin blink play for spectators. Protoss reaction to speedlings is either zealots, or aoe.
Neither am I trying to convince only you, per say, but presenting counter arguments to your stance on this public forum for the consideration of our fellow posters and readers.
We shall see dear friend. I hope you're right if this change gets added. I'm such a fan of buffing the opposing races rather then nerfing the one race. I hate to see abilities weakened. When snipe became useless in WoL after that epic TvZ between July and MVP on metalopolis I died a little inside.
Can you guys stop having your reasonable and polite discussion? There's no place for that here.
It won't happen (and shouldn't happen by any second come to that). The last thing SC2 needs is a nerf of a cool skill intensive strategy/tactic across all match-ups. I don't believe Blizzard would be capable of so much stupidity at one time. Anyone, I am keen to play on the test map again - like I did with the last one. I do hope for a better quality of player though. With patch 2.1. you would run into total SC2 newbies which made some games a total waste of time (even if I did enjoy massing Tempests).
On February 11 2014 11:56 BisuDagger wrote: Blink is one of the cool, micro intensive skills in the game. It is a skill that is clear to see when done flawlessly. I'd be super saddened as a spectator to see it nerfed. It is definitely not the way to go.
The thing people forget sometimes, is that to some of us Starcraft is a spectator sport. And fixing balance issues wrong can sometimes hurt the experience. Hellbat drops era was one of the most exciting periods of SC2 as a viewer. Innovation was amazing to watch hitting several bases simultaneously and actually had a chance to shine as a micro player. I believe nerfing blink is a step in that wrong direction for spectators.
You have to be joking, the hellbat era was completely ruining TvT. That matchup was pure art in WoL and has become really good again in HotS since the nerf.
On February 11 2014 12:33 ArTiFaKs wrote: Everyone bitching about mech, and now looking at TvZ it's sooooooooooooooooo fucking boring now, just line up your units with static defense and wait 3 hours for the game to finish. So let's just hold off on all the complaining for now.
I'm not sure what TvZ you've been watching, but the mech that Flash and TY have been doing in Proleague against Zerg has been really fun to watch.
Blink nerf must not go through. Bilnk stalker isn't even a viable strategy on every map and on some map it is what it should be, a pressure and soft contain. 5 seconds is way too much, if you can't blink in and out, then the whole strategy will be scrapped.
just look at yesterday's rain PvZ, his blink stalker play was amazing, sniped at least 10 swarmhosts, just blink in and out when he saw the locusts are too far to protect the swarmhost.
It's nice to have one unit that you have to really micro to get the best of (along with Phoenixes).
It's not that I enjoy blink all-ins, in fact I'm probably the most vocal non-Terran against those. Just don't gut one of the few finesse units that Protoss have.
It won't make a difference with things like +2 blink stalker allins because of the critical mass of stalkers, but might make some of the cute harassment you can do with small numbers a bit weaker.
5 seconds cool to blink will most likely kill blink builds PvP, which aren't that good atm to begin with.
Have you been watching different PvP from everyone else?
I think most people tune out for PvP. It's a hard matchup to love.
I don't get that =/
It's the most varied matchup, lots of viable openers, and lately there have been a lot less build order auto wins as players adjust and account for new strats. You have everything from proxy rushes to crazy blink stalker battles to stargate openers to late game colossus/archon/tempest battles to 5 minute games to 30 minute games.
PvP is easily my favorite matchup now, we have come a VERY long way from the "4gate or die" days.
The design of most Protoss units and the way they interact with each other just isn't all that interesting to a lot of people. It doesn't matter to me how many openers there are or how long or short the games are.
5 seconds cool to blink will most likely kill blink builds PvP, which aren't that good atm to begin with.
Have you been watching different PvP from everyone else?
I think most people tune out for PvP. It's a hard matchup to love.
I don't get that =/
It's the most varied matchup, lots of viable openers, and lately there have been a lot less build order auto wins as players adjust and account for new strats. You have everything from proxy rushes to crazy blink stalker battles to stargate openers to late game colossus/archon/tempest battles to 5 minute games to 30 minute games.
PvP is easily my favorite matchup now, we have come a VERY long way from the "4gate or die" days.
The design of most Protoss units and the way they interact with each other just isn't all that interesting to a lot of people. It doesn't matter to me how many openers there are or how long or short the games are.
I guess its mostly protoss players that get the beauty of PvP once you move past the blind counter thing. How a player deals with being on the bad end of a build stick is great. I've seen players harass with 4 stalkers at a time to kill probes vs robo, and dt prism drops vs observer openings while expanding.
On maps that aren't chokey we get archon immortal chargelot, a mobile composition that can deny third bases and push and pull while harassing and dropping.
Even blink v blink micro battles are fantastic.
But you need to get past the hard counter and into the intricacy which a lot of casters dont introduce well. Its just as punishing a matchup as ZvZ but slower in pace early with positioning of TvT in the mid game when both players take 3rd and 4th bases. Its a very finesse based matchup and it doesnt come through when presented incorrectly. IMO anyway.
PvP is sick, literally it's Collosus lasers that can make it a bit shite to watch sometimes. Everything else I actually tend to really enjoy. Most Protoss units don't have the insane DPS of other races core comps, so the battles are a bit elongated sometimes (with the exception of laz0rs)
I've been calling PvP the most interesting matchup for a while now
Colossus-centric deathballs are almost a thing of the past. Chargelot immortal archon beats it, esp with glorious chargelot flanks. A sprinkling of tempests also dissuades Colossus armies. Protosses that abuse mobility and warp prisms often beat colossus players
On February 11 2014 13:33 lichter wrote: I've been calling PvP the most interesting matchup for a while now
Colossus-centric deathballs are almost a thing of the past. Chargelot immortal archon beats it, esp with glorious chargelot flanks. A sprinkling of tempests also dissuades Colossus armies. Protosses that abuse mobility and warp prisms often beat colossus players
I'm not yet ready to say that yet, we've seen some decent games recently, but sometimes on maps like Heavy Rain all you end up with are colossus tempest deathballs instead, it just seems to lack any mid game at all with canons being so good at fending off all types of protoss harassment.
5 seconds cool to blink will most likely kill blink builds PvP, which aren't that good atm to begin with.
Have you been watching different PvP from everyone else?
I think most people tune out for PvP. It's a hard matchup to love.
I don't get that =/
It's the most varied matchup, lots of viable openers, and lately there have been a lot less build order auto wins as players adjust and account for new strats. You have everything from proxy rushes to crazy blink stalker battles to stargate openers to late game colossus/archon/tempest battles to 5 minute games to 30 minute games.
PvP is easily my favorite matchup now, we have come a VERY long way from the "4gate or die" days.
The design of most Protoss units and the way they interact with each other just isn't all that interesting to a lot of people. It doesn't matter to me how many openers there are or how long or short the games are.
I guess its mostly protoss players that get the beauty of PvP once you move past the blind counter thing. How a player deals with being on the bad end of a build stick is great. I've seen players harass with 4 stalkers at a time to kill probes vs robo, and dt prism drops vs observer openings while expanding.
On maps that aren't chokey we get archon immortal chargelot, a mobile composition that can deny third bases and push and pull while harassing and dropping.
Even blink v blink micro battles are fantastic.
But you need to get past the hard counter and into the intricacy which a lot of casters dont introduce well. Its just as punishing a matchup as ZvZ but slower in pace early with positioning of TvT in the mid game when both players take 3rd and 4th bases. Its a very finesse based matchup and it doesnt come through when presented incorrectly. IMO anyway.
I'm not saying PvP isn't difficult or demanding, it very much is. Playing it against someone more experienced than you is usually an autoloss and playing it when I offrace as Protoss often makes me want to rip my hair out in frustration. That said, there isn't a stage of the game or army comp or whatever that I would come anywhere near to describing as "fantastic" because the units themselves and the armies you tend to make and fight against are just shit ass boring compared to anything I do with Terran, which became my main race a few months after I started playing SC2 (played Protoss initially as it was my main race in BW).
Here's a link to a video where Khaldor and Mana discuss the patch changes. Obviously Mana has Protoss point of view, but it's still good content from Khaldor (as usual).
On February 11 2014 13:15 ETisME wrote: Blink nerf must not go through. Bilnk stalker isn't even a viable strategy on every map and on some map it is what it should be, a pressure and soft contain. 5 seconds is way too much, if you can't blink in and out, then the whole strategy will be scrapped.
just look at yesterday's rain PvZ, his blink stalker play was amazing, sniped at least 10 swarmhosts, just blink in and out when he saw the locusts are too far to protect the swarmhost.
Why should it be viable on every map? God forbid Protoss has to choose a different cheese every once in a while..
On February 11 2014 13:17 Wombat_NI wrote: It's nice to have one unit that you have to really micro to get the best of (along with Phoenixes).
It's not that I enjoy blink all-ins, in fact I'm probably the most vocal non-Terran against those. Just don't gut one of the few finesse units that Protoss have.
It won't make a difference with things like +2 blink stalker allins because of the critical mass of stalkers, but might make some of the cute harassment you can do with small numbers a bit weaker.
We'll see how it works out when it goes through
I agree with blink, I don't think a direct nerf is needed since it awarded good micro. I would rather have something like having marauders shots reset the blink cooldown to 5. So protoss will lose 'some' stalkers each time they blink in. And terrans would be rewarded for targetting different stalkers with marauders.
EPT
