EPTFeb 10: Balance Test Map Coming - Page 32
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CCa1ss1e
Canada3231 Posts
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yokohama
United States1116 Posts
On February 11 2014 13:15 forsooth wrote: I'm not sure what TvZ you've been watching, but the mech that Flash and TY have been doing in Proleague against Zerg has been really fun to watch. He is probably talking about the Reality vs Soulkey game 1 from Proleague last night. | ||
BisuDagger
Bisutopia19306 Posts
On February 11 2014 13:11 forsooth wrote: You have to be joking, the hellbat era was completely ruining TvT. That matchup was pure art in WoL and has become really good again in HotS since the nerf. 4 drops simultaneously wasn't epic to watch? I guess I'm spoiled by watching boxer develop drop play in starcraft 1 and thought I was finally seeing it pioneered for sc2 also. TvT could have been fixed without ruining the epic drop play hellbats offered. As I said in one of my other posts, I would rather strengthen the opponent then weaken the single unit. | ||
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KrazyTrumpet
United States2520 Posts
On February 11 2014 13:26 ZeromuS wrote: I guess its mostly protoss players that get the beauty of PvP once you move past the blind counter thing. How a player deals with being on the bad end of a build stick is great. I've seen players harass with 4 stalkers at a time to kill probes vs robo, and dt prism drops vs observer openings while expanding. On maps that aren't chokey we get archon immortal chargelot, a mobile composition that can deny third bases and push and pull while harassing and dropping. Even blink v blink micro battles are fantastic. But you need to get past the hard counter and into the intricacy which a lot of casters dont introduce well. Its just as punishing a matchup as ZvZ but slower in pace early with positioning of TvT in the mid game when both players take 3rd and 4th bases. Its a very finesse based matchup and it doesnt come through when presented incorrectly. IMO anyway. I totally agree. It's interesting how, as you learn more about the game, you get more annoyed with casters lol | ||
lichter
1001 YEARS KESPAJAIL22272 Posts
On February 11 2014 14:00 yokohama wrote: He is probably talking about the Reality vs Soulkey game 1 from Proleague last night. All play styles can be un-entertaining and painful, it depends how you play it. It's just too bad both Reality and Soulkey decided to make us suffer at the same time. | ||
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iamcaustic
Canada1509 Posts
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Whitewing
United States7483 Posts
On February 11 2014 12:40 plogamer wrote: "Weaker choice in general" is really vague. I pointed out why blink isn't a weaker choice by comparing the proposed nerf against blink's current interaction with each of the Protoss stargate unit. It makes blink substantially weaker against fast expand builds of any kind, it makes it weaker to defend gateway pressure or all-ins with (since normally, if you defend right, blink finishes shortly after the attack starts and you use micro to barely hold it off), it makes it weaker against robo play, which, while rare, still occasionally happens. It makes blink a weaker opening against people going into Archon/chargelot/immortal midgames, it makes blink weaker vs. everything. It makes blink based attacks and all-ins weaker, and it makes it weaker against void rays. So yeah, it's a big hit. | ||
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Snake.69
Canada140 Posts
The only zerg counter ever had to ravens in wol got nerfed to the ground... yep the infestor. With all this in mind, i suggest this buff: -Infestors deal additionnal damage against caster units. (ravens, templars, mothership core,sentries etc). It would help the zerg defend against sentry heavy mid game toss *all in*. It would also force the terran to spread his ravens and vikings more; making them more easy to pick off with vipers and the *new and improved* hydras. It would make it a lot easier for the terran to make micro mistakes just as it is for the zerg if he doesnt go swarm hosts. And then with hydra vipers beeing more viable against a late game sky mech composition, the zerg would be more likely to put pressure all game with roach hydra. since with vipers and infestor, it would be alot more viable since raven clumps would be very risky. Same can be said about ZvP. Ground armies get melted super cost innefficiently against toss max armies with templars and immortals/colosus. Ultras are ok but as soon as spotted, toss walls up, adjust his composition while warp prism harassing and has a 100% guaranteed super cost efficient battle on the first engagement, then can recall home and adjust compositon again. Zerg needs a well rounded unit that can counter enemy spell casters from beeing overly massed. Ravens should be a support unit, not a massable unit. You should have 4-5 on your max army, not 12+. Think about it.. Energy based units that can kill and *free units* is what creates 2hours stale mates games. In order for casters to remain support units and not be massed, every race needs a anti caster. You dont see mass ravens turtle against protoss do you?? In fact, TvP is never a turtle based game. Because both races have anti casters so their caster cant be massed, therefor there is no need to wait for energy to fight good battles once you are maxed out. | ||
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KrazyTrumpet
United States2520 Posts
On February 11 2014 14:02 lichter wrote: All play styles can be un-entertaining and painful, it depends how you play it. It's just too bad both Reality and Soulkey decided to make us suffer at the same time. I really liked how aggressive Soulkey was with his swarm hosts initially in the second game, doing hit and runs. That's one of the ways I think swarm hosts can be used that's cool to see. But then he decided to just turtle up again -_- Thankfully, he had such a huge lead from his opening roach/bane attack that he was able to end the game more aggressively but yeah, this turtle nonsense is silly. I absolutely don't mind long games, but they can't just end up being two armies sitting around staring at each other for 1.5 hours waiting for someone to miss a PDD or a fungal. | ||
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AnonymousSC2
United States189 Posts
On February 11 2014 13:43 pak150 wrote: Here's a link to a video where Khaldor and Mana discuss the patch changes. Obviously Mana has Protoss point of view, but it's still good content from Khaldor (as usual). Yeah Mana is extremely biased. He thinks its ok for widowmine drops to kill 1 probe at a time? It's stupid. Very stupid. | ||
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BronzeKnee
United States5219 Posts
On February 11 2014 14:10 AnonymousSC2 wrote: Yeah Mana is extremely biased. He thinks its ok for widowmine drops to kill 1 probe at a time? It's stupid. Very stupid. I've never fully understood why Widow Mine drops should be even be a part of the game... Terran players can never fully experience them either, since they don't kill a mass of SCV's in one shot, since they do 40 damage... It was like BFH. It was never really an issue until Terrans started doing it to each other, then suddenly it became a big issue. Except it was always an issue. I don't know how many times I faced masses of Hellions in TvP trying to kill my workers, dropped or not. Then people do it in TvT, and suddenly it gets changed... it was imbalanced all a long. | ||
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GTPGlitch
5061 Posts
On February 11 2014 14:23 BronzeKnee wrote: I've never fully understood why Widow Mine drops should be even be a part of the game... Terran players can never fully experience them either, since they don't kill a mass of SCV's in one shot, since they do 40 damage... It was like BFH. It was never really an issue until Terrans started doing it to each other, then suddenly it became a big issue. Except it was always an issue. I don't know how many times I faced masses of Hellions in TvP trying to kill my workers, dropped or not. Then people do it in TvT, and suddenly it gets changed... it was imbalanced all a long. ahahahaha you're funny because that's totally wrong Here's what actually happened: http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/2011_MLG_Pro_Circuit/Anaheim Also known as three Terrans going a combined 19-2 against zergs | ||
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vthree
Hong Kong8039 Posts
On February 11 2014 14:00 BisuDagger wrote: 4 drops simultaneously wasn't epic to watch? I guess I'm spoiled by watching boxer develop drop play in starcraft 1 and thought I was finally seeing it pioneered for sc2 also. TvT could have been fixed without ruining the epic drop play hellbats offered. As I said in one of my other posts, I would rather strengthen the opponent then weaken the single unit. Yeah, I think the big issue with hellbat drops was that is pretty much always did damage unless you had 10-15 supply of units sitting right in the minerals lines. Harass defense should be able spotting and reacting and not having units sitting in the mineral lines. marines drops are a good example, you need 1 or 2 static defense to hold off while your armies comes in. With hellbats, your army had pretty much 0 time to react because they just ignored static defense and kill your workers. | ||
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vthree
Hong Kong8039 Posts
On February 11 2014 14:37 GTPGlitch wrote: ahahahaha you're funny because that's totally wrong Here's what actually happened: http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/2011_MLG_Pro_Circuit/Anaheim Also known as three Terrans going a combined 19-2 against zergs To be fair, that was MMA, Boxer, Mvp vs mostly NA zergs. | ||
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plogamer
Canada3132 Posts
On February 11 2014 14:05 Whitewing wrote: It makes blink substantially weaker against fast expand builds of any kind, it makes it weaker to defend gateway pressure or all-ins with (since normally, if you defend right, blink finishes shortly after the attack starts and you use micro to barely hold it off), it makes it weaker against robo play, which, while rare, still occasionally happens. It makes blink a weaker opening against people going into Archon/chargelot/immortal midgames, it makes blink weaker vs. everything. It makes blink based attacks and all-ins weaker, and it makes it weaker against void rays. So yeah, it's a big hit. And the nexus cannon just suddenly disappeared? Blink is still far superior to non-blink stalkers (in gateway pressure) even with the cooldown increased. Has blink ever been strong against charglot archon? Or even used against that composition? Chargelots negate a lot of blink mobility, unless used to near cliffs (which again means the 5 extra second is a non-issue). I wouldn't deny that it's a nerf. But let's not make a mountain of a mole hill. | ||
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Entropy137
Canada215 Posts
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plogamer
Canada3132 Posts
On February 11 2014 14:46 Entropy137 wrote: As it is right now, blight stalkers can only barely get away from stimmed concussive bio by running and blinking every time it comes off cooldown, and even still, if the terran remains in pursuit, they can usually snag a stalker per blink. Increasing the cooldown of blink will destroy this relationship, and will allow any group of blink stalkers caught out on the map to get chased and gunned down by concussive marauders. The blink nerf is a massive nerf that will affect many aspects of each matchup. The only phase blink seems to be a problem is the pre-stim/medivac phase of tvp. Now this seems like a really legitimate point. But I'm too tired to confirm if blink stalkers in the current patch do indeed barely get away, and heading to bed. | ||
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lichter
1001 YEARS KESPAJAIL22272 Posts
On February 11 2014 14:41 vthree wrote: Yeah, I think the big issue with hellbat drops was that is pretty much always did damage unless you had 10-15 supply of units sitting right in the minerals lines. Harass defense should be able spotting and reacting and not having units sitting in the mineral lines. The big issue was that Hellbats had high HP and high damage output, with their drawback being immobility. Paired with a medivac solves that, and it has no weakness as a harassment unit. Unless you intercept the medivac it was going to do damage no matter what because it was impossible to kill fast enough. The solution Blizzard chose was to reduce their high damage output, but it nerfed the strategy too hard because two in a 'vac could no longer do damage before SCVs could be pulled. It also nerfed the unit in other situations; they could not longer be used to counter zealots in TvP. An odd but more reasonable solution for it, in my opinion, would have been to make medivacs unable to boost with hellbats in them. Nerfing their mobility is more in line with the purpose of hellbats (tanky high DPS unit with short range and movement). | ||
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forsooth
United States3648 Posts
On February 11 2014 14:00 BisuDagger wrote: 4 drops simultaneously wasn't epic to watch? I guess I'm spoiled by watching boxer develop drop play in starcraft 1 and thought I was finally seeing it pioneered for sc2 also. TvT could have been fixed without ruining the epic drop play hellbats offered. As I said in one of my other posts, I would rather strengthen the opponent then weaken the single unit. No, it wasn't epic to watch because hellbat drops combined with medivac boost turned the entire matchup into nothing but trying frantically to defend your mineral lines against something that could instantly kill a quarter of your workers if you made a mistake. It took the focus completely off of what makes TvT great, which is the battle for control of space out on the map with siege tanks and the way players focus on trying to circumvent or punch holes in enemy lines. Epic is as far from what hellbats turned TvT into as I can think of. The way Blizzard went about nerfing them was probably not the best solution, but I'll take nerfed hellbats over the way they used to be without a second thought. | ||
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vthree
Hong Kong8039 Posts
On February 11 2014 14:46 Entropy137 wrote: As it is right now, blight stalkers can only barely get away from stimmed concussive bio by running and blinking every time it comes off cooldown, and even still, if the terran remains in pursuit, they can usually snag a stalker per blink. Increasing the cooldown of blink will destroy this relationship, and will allow any group of blink stalkers caught out on the map to get chased and gunned down by concussive marauders. The blink nerf is a massive nerf that will affect many aspects of each matchup. The only phase blink seems to be a problem is the pre-stim/medivac phase of tvp. To be fair, having blink stalkers being always able to get away after targeting down a unit without any way for the terran to respond was kind of weird, especially when protoss has shield regen. Will have to see how it goes, obviously, we don't want protoss to have to lose 3-4 stalkers either. But maybe they will have to plan their retreat path where they can use the terrain. | ||
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