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On February 11 2014 15:46 bittman wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2014 15:38 digmouse wrote:
I don't know, but maybe we shouldn't have so many maps that Stalkers can blink in so easily in the first place. And there's the rub. As a question, is the stalker's blink completely height independent? I.e. it doesn't matter if say you're 5 levels higher than the "low ground"? I assume it is.
afaik, in sc2 there's just higher and lower. you cannot actually have different hight lvls apart from that
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On February 11 2014 15:54 tar wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2014 15:46 bittman wrote:On February 11 2014 15:38 digmouse wrote:
I don't know, but maybe we shouldn't have so many maps that Stalkers can blink in so easily in the first place. And there's the rub. As a question, is the stalker's blink completely height independent? I.e. it doesn't matter if say you're 5 levels higher than the "low ground"? I assume it is. afaik, in sc2 there's just higher and lower. you cannot actually have different hight lvls apart from that
What? There are definitely more then 2 height levels, reapers for instance need that "step" on Yeonsu for instance because they can only go up one level and part of the main is down lower then the natural is even. Stalkers can blink up regardless, they're not just limited to only 1 cliff level like the colossus or the reaper.
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On February 11 2014 15:54 tar wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2014 15:46 bittman wrote:On February 11 2014 15:38 digmouse wrote:
I don't know, but maybe we shouldn't have so many maps that Stalkers can blink in so easily in the first place. And there's the rub. As a question, is the stalker's blink completely height independent? I.e. it doesn't matter if say you're 5 levels higher than the "low ground"? I assume it is. afaik, in sc2 there's just higher and lower. you cannot actually have different hight lvls apart from that
Since you can make cliffs too high for reapers to jump, one could give blink the same restriction.
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On February 11 2014 15:54 tar wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2014 15:46 bittman wrote:On February 11 2014 15:38 digmouse wrote:
I don't know, but maybe we shouldn't have so many maps that Stalkers can blink in so easily in the first place. And there's the rub. As a question, is the stalker's blink completely height independent? I.e. it doesn't matter if say you're 5 levels higher than the "low ground"? I assume it is. afaik, in sc2 there's just higher and lower. you cannot actually have different hight lvls apart from that
Not true, for example Colossi and Reapers can only walk over cliffs of 1 level. e.g. Antiga Shipyard base was 2 levels higher than the paths.
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1001 YEARS KESPAJAIL22272 Posts
On February 11 2014 16:02 Dingobloo wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2014 15:54 tar wrote:On February 11 2014 15:46 bittman wrote:On February 11 2014 15:38 digmouse wrote:
I don't know, but maybe we shouldn't have so many maps that Stalkers can blink in so easily in the first place. And there's the rub. As a question, is the stalker's blink completely height independent? I.e. it doesn't matter if say you're 5 levels higher than the "low ground"? I assume it is. afaik, in sc2 there's just higher and lower. you cannot actually have different hight lvls apart from that What? There are definitely more then 2 height levels, reapers for instance need that "step" on Yeonsu for instance because they can only go up one level and part of the main is down lower then the natural is even. Stalkers can blink up regardless, they're not just limited to only 1 cliff level like the colossus or the reaper.
Teleportation isn't limited by gravity (reaper booster packs) nor flexibility (walking range of Colossus legs) so it makes sense that it is not bound by height levels.
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On February 11 2014 16:04 lichter wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2014 16:02 Dingobloo wrote:On February 11 2014 15:54 tar wrote:On February 11 2014 15:46 bittman wrote:On February 11 2014 15:38 digmouse wrote:
I don't know, but maybe we shouldn't have so many maps that Stalkers can blink in so easily in the first place. And there's the rub. As a question, is the stalker's blink completely height independent? I.e. it doesn't matter if say you're 5 levels higher than the "low ground"? I assume it is. afaik, in sc2 there's just higher and lower. you cannot actually have different hight lvls apart from that What? There are definitely more then 2 height levels, reapers for instance need that "step" on Yeonsu for instance because they can only go up one level and part of the main is down lower then the natural is even. Stalkers can blink up regardless, they're not just limited to only 1 cliff level like the colossus or the reaper. Teleportation isn't limited by gravity (reaper booster packs) nor flexibility (walking range of Colossus legs) so it makes sense that it is not bound by height levels.
Stalkers have to use extra computational power to conceptualize the trajectory of their teleportation when they are unable to see their destination.
Where's my cookie?
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On February 11 2014 16:04 pure.Wasted wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2014 15:54 tar wrote:On February 11 2014 15:46 bittman wrote:On February 11 2014 15:38 digmouse wrote:
I don't know, but maybe we shouldn't have so many maps that Stalkers can blink in so easily in the first place. And there's the rub. As a question, is the stalker's blink completely height independent? I.e. it doesn't matter if say you're 5 levels higher than the "low ground"? I assume it is. afaik, in sc2 there's just higher and lower. you cannot actually have different hight lvls apart from that Reapers can't double jump.
there are map elements that are not passable for certain units. I don't think they are hight lvls though since you can place an element right next to them which is passable and leads to the same plateau.
edit: this might have the effect of hight lvls but they aren't technically. you can still create a map where you go 3 ramps up and one down and you'll be right back on the lvl you originally started (ie no real hight lvl system)
just ignore what I said. I haven't used the editor since early WoL and I am not sure if I am confusing things or not. sorry.
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Blink change is too far. Try MSC range first, and at most 10 to 12 not 15.
But come on no swarm host change? Come on.
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China6331 Posts
Reapers need the extra platform to jump into the main on Yeonsu but Stalkers can blink in regardless if I remeber correctly (I don't play Blink that much on Yeonsu), Reapers can't jump into the main on Bel'Shir from the low ground below, they need to go through the nat but Stalkers can blink in directly.
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On February 11 2014 14:49 plogamer wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2014 14:46 Entropy137 wrote:
As it is right now, blight stalkers can only barely get away from stimmed concussive bio by running and blinking every time it comes off cooldown, and even still, if the terran remains in pursuit, they can usually snag a stalker per blink. Increasing the cooldown of blink will destroy this relationship, and will allow any group of blink stalkers caught out on the map to get chased and gunned down by concussive marauders. The blink nerf is a massive nerf that will affect many aspects of each matchup. The only phase blink seems to be a problem is the pre-stim/medivac phase of tvp. Now this seems like a really legitimate point. But I'm too tired to confirm if blink stalkers in the current patch do indeed barely get away, and heading to bed.
They have always barely gotten away for two stims worth or so. Past that it's not usually worth stimming anymore. But with 5 extra seconds of cooldown, yikes!
On February 11 2014 15:37 SCguineapig wrote:
i think the widow mine buff will cause many more drops to happen in pvt. hope it won't kill zealot archon opening, by forcing you to go robo all the time for obs.
Even for templar/charge openings you still usually see a robo dropped pretty early on, I don't really think it will be an issue. Protoss players have always had to account for widow mine drops.
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The hydra change is like nothing. Zerg anti-air is still too weak, void ray has still no real counter but spore/infest turtle behind wave of locusts. And they buff again skytoss. Hydra need +1 range vs air and bonus dommage vs air aswell being immune to pdd.
And about the SH, a lot including DK blaming zerg for being too defensive while they have just no other way to deal with deathball/sky. If you just nerf SH without nerfing deathball you just say : ok zerg you're the worse race for winning in the early/mid game in non mirror match up but now you have a timer : if T/P goes for camping deathball style you lose 100% past 18-20 min.
Reality would have 100% win vs the best zerg of the world without SH while he just camp and mass mech until he has critical number.
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so the mothership (big one) still has 14 vision? quite important in pvz against vipers
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Russian Federation262 Posts
I must consider another changes:
1. Re-design of swarmhosts to kill turtling style
2. Give Zerg something to deal with late-game T mech army, especially, air.
3. Give Zerg something to deal with Protoss Deathballs
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What I think SwarmHosts should've looked like even back from day1:
1 - Decrease cost of the unit - it's a Lair-tech hive unit - i.e. - the kind that requires an extra base in order to not be all-in with it
2 - Decrease the spawn-time period a bit - like maybe 2-3 seconds ?? (yeah, that's what I think that's probably necessary amount of time to reduce vulnerability without the upgrade to not make them useless without it)
3 - Remove the EL Upgrade.. Like seriously - just remove the upgrade.. No-one uses the unit without the upgrade, which means it IS the thing that makes it OP.. OR -->
3.a. - Reduce the amount of lifetime the EL upgrade gives to the locusts - make it 5 seconds instead of 10..
Once that is dealt with:
4 - Make Locusts spawn a bit further at the start - i.e. - at the "head" area from the SwarmHost instead from it's back (though that won't make sense, lore-wise, still - will give the ability to instantly unburrow and retreat them without the AI screwing up with it)
5 - This is a very small subtle change - a bit of UI improvement regarding the unit --> don't allow to use both burrowed and unburrowed SHs to be used on the same rally.. Or give some "tabbing" feel to it - just as the sieged and unsieged Tanks are ATM
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This is a "suggestion" that I'd go with as far as engagements are concerned - assuming that Swarm-Hosts are dealt with
6 - Think that MAYBE, just maybe - increase the abduct cast range - like - increase it for 3 range or so, but add a small casting delay to it.. Viper should "stay still" while doing it - like a second or so - giving a small amount of time being vulnerable to get FB-ed or EMP-ed
6.a - Seriously - Make the Mothership being immune to spells.. Not the Core, but just the Mothership.. Like - feedbacking the Core in PvP or EMP-ing it in TvP is cool, but the Mothership itself should probably be immune to spells I think
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If you buff the Viper's abduct range - then the SwarmHost can easily be nerfed - in terms increasing it's period of vulnerability a bit - without making Zerg necessarily too vulnerable and having nothing else to deal with the opponent's simultaneously.. The Zerg will still have the Viper as the "first-engaging" unit
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A bit of a bonus: I'm surprised Protosses not talking about the PvZ impact on the nerf of blink.. Like - they seem far more concerned with the PvP.. 
But yah - to all the Terrans who say that the Blink-nerf isn't a big deal - please - know that will ruin PvZ Blink timings COMPLETELY and destroy all the things best blinkers can bring to us as viewers.. NOT ONLY THAT, but combine it with the Hydra buff and you get the idea.. yep - no PvZ gonna be played without the Colossus in the Protoss army composition.. Like - none at all
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msc vision range reduction sounds the only reasonable fix but swarm host should have a higher priority right now (imo)
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Good changes overall. I understand that they want to do something about hydras but imo their dps is fine. Maybe remove range upgrade and give them that range from the start instead. And perhaps slightly faster offcreep? Its so easy to clear creep in PvZ compared to TvZ.
The WM buff vs shield is ok I guess but as far as WM is concerned they should focus on finding a middle ground between pre nerf and post nerf WM that makes it good in TvZ again.
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On February 11 2014 04:55 Adreme wrote:
Wait they are finally going to test the vision change that people have been suggesting for months. I cant believe what I am reading, I mean they are doing it very begrudgingly but they are still doing it.
Note that they are TESTING it. That means when they KNOW it doesn't fit into what they want from the game, they're not gonna add it ever.
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On February 11 2014 06:08 Existor wrote:And here is a banner!  ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/fMN6JIr.png)
God that's freakin' cool! I wish I had this as 1920 x 1080
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i wish they would at least try to find a new role for the hydralisk
changing the gas cost was a good idea but they needed to adjust the units damage and hp accordingly so it would get a slight net buff in the end but not be overpowered as it was in the previous map
that change was at least interesting as in it would open up new ways to play, new builds to explore etc
this new change is just dull
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EPT
