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Feb 10: Balance Test Map Coming - Page 36

Forum Index > SC2 General
992 CommentsPost a Reply
Prev 1 34 35 36 37 38 50 Next All
goody153
Profile Blog Joined April 2013
44119 Posts
February 11 2014 10:54 GMT
#701
On February 11 2014 19:24 Destructicon wrote:
Ok, stealing this from reddit. This is how the proposed nerfs would look in game.
http://imgur.com/a/Wn9rN

This should be added in the OP..

Anyways from the GIF's..

>The MSC vision nerf is pretty good.
>Whoa I think the blink decrease is too much. That cannot go through or at least just maybe 12 sec cd. Not 15 i think that would be too much
>Thinking that widow mines normally don't set off against protoss deathball due to colossus and stalkers so the change will not be devastating. And it will only add to the effectiveness of WM vs toss means this could finally mean a area control unit that is not ghost that can be used vs toss. And widow mines will no longer be a harrassment unit anymore. This won't change much WM rarely hits protoss deathball anyways.
>Hydra attack speed increase doesn't change much. Still it could be more powerful.
> Well the tempest change hinders turtling a little. That is for sure but why don't just blizzard redesign SH instead of buffing tempest. It would be much better.

this is a quote
MasterOfPuppets
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
Romania6942 Posts
February 11 2014 10:56 GMT
#702
On February 11 2014 19:49 MasterOfPuppets wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 11 2014 19:26 ETisME wrote:
On February 11 2014 19:24 Destructicon wrote:
Ok, stealing this from reddit. This is how the proposed nerfs would look in game.
http://imgur.com/a/Wn9rN

that mine hit against immortals is crazy good, a few immortals shield were completely gone

also the vision nerf is a bit too much for my taste.


I thought the buff to damage vs shields was only for the one target you directly hit, and not the splash as well?

"my shaft scares me too" - strenx 2014
goody153
Profile Blog Joined April 2013
44119 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-02-11 10:58:38
February 11 2014 10:58 GMT
#703
On February 11 2014 19:56 MasterOfPuppets wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 11 2014 19:49 MasterOfPuppets wrote:
On February 11 2014 19:26 ETisME wrote:
On February 11 2014 19:24 Destructicon wrote:
Ok, stealing this from reddit. This is how the proposed nerfs would look in game.
http://imgur.com/a/Wn9rN

that mine hit against immortals is crazy good, a few immortals shield were completely gone

also the vision nerf is a bit too much for my taste.


I thought the buff to damage vs shields was only for the one target you directly hit, and not the splash as well?


then the buff would actually be useless if that were the case since against toss widow-mines hardly ever triggers due to colossi and stalkers.
this is a quote
syriuszonito
Profile Joined June 2011
Poland332 Posts
February 11 2014 10:59 GMT
#704
On February 11 2014 19:24 Destructicon wrote:
Ok, stealing this from reddit. This is how the proposed nerfs would look in game.
http://imgur.com/a/Wn9rN


Great that you posted it here, it should open eyes to all those who are bitching about hydra buff, difference is really small and lets face it hydra needs some kind of a buff.
The only change that is questionable is blink nerf but I think protoss are just overreatcting here as it shuts down one of their favourite all in strat.
The one || My stream http://www.teamliquid.net/video/streams/syriuszonito
boxerfred
Profile Blog Joined December 2012
Germany8360 Posts
February 11 2014 10:59 GMT
#705
On February 11 2014 19:25 TheDwf wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 11 2014 19:19 boxerfred wrote:
On February 11 2014 18:58 TheDwf wrote:
On February 11 2014 18:55 maXX_CZ wrote:
WM:
Dunno, i dont see this somewhat effective in later stages (obs). So it basically buffs only marine medivac mine drop early?

Nope, it would also (re)make 4M viable or somewhat viable against Templar openings.


No terran ever will rely on widow mines vs a protoss. As a harassment option, yep, but not as a component in your main army. Storm outranges WM, Colossi outrange WM, the additional gas will be taken out of medivac/viking/marauder production etc.

Why? Splash damage + zone control is what bio desperately needs against mass Zealots. Storm outranging Mines doesn't matter since you can spread them the way you would do vs Zerg; plus it takes 2 Storms to kill a Mine. Colossi or Stalkers outranging Mines doesn't matter since you only play them against Templar openings.


Protoss has a auto-split (charge) which will ofc not ever work fine but will reduce the widow mine's efficiency due to the already weak damage distribution in the projectile's hit radius.

Then again, you're right, you can pre-spread your mines, but the protoss might just snipe them with long range colossus (assumend you have enough mines to spread, protoss will at least have colossus or templar tech available). If no colossus available (which is kind of unrealistic since early mine harass is much stronger and will enforce more robo openings), protoss can still fall back on his bases and turtle on 2-3 bases (or, just use one of the strengths of the race and go all-in). Yes, it takes two storms to kill a mine, but at the same time, storms are great for zoning out the bio army, which would make stalkers able to snipe the remaining hitpoints. But I think our argumentation goes too hard into detailed theorycrafting, we will have to see how the meta game develops. Then again, DK won't give the meta game time to develop, since this game appears to still be in a beta test. I think DK's goal should just be to keep the game interesteing (as I said repeatedly, address the swarm host/mech turtle/stupid long games without any excitement issue) and use LotV to change this in a greater scope. But ofc he won't do this
NovaMB
Profile Joined February 2013
Germany9534 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-02-11 11:02:56
February 11 2014 11:01 GMT
#706
On February 11 2014 19:56 MasterOfPuppets wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 11 2014 19:49 MasterOfPuppets wrote:
On February 11 2014 19:26 ETisME wrote:
On February 11 2014 19:24 Destructicon wrote:
Ok, stealing this from reddit. This is how the proposed nerfs would look in game.
http://imgur.com/a/Wn9rN

that mine hit against immortals is crazy good, a few immortals shield were completely gone

also the vision nerf is a bit too much for my taste.


I thought the buff to damage vs shields was only for the one target you directly hit, and not the splash as well?


Its only for the splash.

That has me thinking, is the splash damage considered a spell aswell? Or does the +40 shields ignore hardened shields regardless of being spell damage or not?
MidnightZL
Profile Joined August 2012
Sweden203 Posts
February 11 2014 11:02 GMT
#707
Many just whining without even having tried the new balance changes, So what if you cant go with your old build you have used for 2 decades? so what? Maybe it's time to try something new? And i'm pretty sure blink will work even with a 15s cd, its not out of the game like some here may think... But i'll have to admit that i didn't see the blink cd change coming. And as always, it's for testing purpose.
- I'm fairly certain YOLO is just Carpe Diem for stupid people - Jack Black
MasterOfPuppets
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
Romania6942 Posts
February 11 2014 11:03 GMT
#708
On February 11 2014 20:01 NovaMB wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 11 2014 19:56 MasterOfPuppets wrote:
On February 11 2014 19:49 MasterOfPuppets wrote:
On February 11 2014 19:26 ETisME wrote:
On February 11 2014 19:24 Destructicon wrote:
Ok, stealing this from reddit. This is how the proposed nerfs would look in game.
http://imgur.com/a/Wn9rN

that mine hit against immortals is crazy good, a few immortals shield were completely gone

also the vision nerf is a bit too much for my taste.


I thought the buff to damage vs shields was only for the one target you directly hit, and not the splash as well?


Its only for the splash.


Couple of months later down the line and all we see is a different type of 1/1/1 timing.... zzz
"my shaft scares me too" - strenx 2014
wishr
Profile Joined February 2012
Russian Federation262 Posts
February 11 2014 11:06 GMT
#709
On February 11 2014 20:02 MidnightZL wrote:
Many just whining without even having tried the new balance changes, So what if you cant go with your old build you have used for 2 decades? so what? Maybe it's time to try something new? And i'm pretty sure blink will work even with a 15s cd, its not out of the game like some here may think... But i'll have to admit that i didn't see the blink cd change coming. And as always, it's for testing purpose.

Totally agree. Everyone must act in a good manner.
* Only girls complain about balance! *
shin_toss
Profile Joined May 2010
Philippines2589 Posts
February 11 2014 11:17 GMT
#710
Lol if this is the only reason to shut the Z and T QQ'ers (that actually needs to l2p). I'm all for it
AKMU / IU
SC2Toastie
Profile Blog Joined October 2013
Netherlands5725 Posts
February 11 2014 11:20 GMT
#711
On February 11 2014 20:17 shin_toss wrote:
Lol if this is the only reason to shut the Z and T QQ'ers (that actually needs to l2p). I'm all for it

Don't check the stats bro :O!
Mura Ma Man, Dark Da Dude, Super Shot Sos!
Destructicon
Profile Blog Joined September 2011
4713 Posts
February 11 2014 11:21 GMT
#712
On February 11 2014 19:54 goody153 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 11 2014 19:24 Destructicon wrote:
Ok, stealing this from reddit. This is how the proposed nerfs would look in game.
http://imgur.com/a/Wn9rN

This should be added in the OP..

Anyways from the GIF's..

>The MSC vision nerf is pretty good.
>Whoa I think the blink decrease is too much. That cannot go through or at least just maybe 12 sec cd. Not 15 i think that would be too much
>Thinking that widow mines normally don't set off against protoss deathball due to colossus and stalkers so the change will not be devastating. And it will only add to the effectiveness of WM vs toss means this could finally mean a area control unit that is not ghost that can be used vs toss. And widow mines will no longer be a harrassment unit anymore. This won't change much WM rarely hits protoss deathball anyways.
>Hydra attack speed increase doesn't change much. Still it could be more powerful.
> Well the tempest change hinders turtling a little. That is for sure but why don't just blizzard redesign SH instead of buffing tempest. It would be much better.



I think WM might be way better then Hellbats in against chargelot archon strats, a couple of shots could absolutely devastate a group of chargelots. However late game you probably still will want to phase them out and get a mass of ghosts and vikings to support the bio army.

Also WM might be a lot better at shutting down zealot harass now in conjuncture with sim cities and static defense.
WriterNever give up, never surrender! https://www.youtube.com/user/DestructiconSC
SC2Toastie
Profile Blog Joined October 2013
Netherlands5725 Posts
February 11 2014 11:22 GMT
#713
On February 11 2014 19:59 boxerfred wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 11 2014 19:25 TheDwf wrote:
On February 11 2014 19:19 boxerfred wrote:
On February 11 2014 18:58 TheDwf wrote:
On February 11 2014 18:55 maXX_CZ wrote:
WM:
Dunno, i dont see this somewhat effective in later stages (obs). So it basically buffs only marine medivac mine drop early?

Nope, it would also (re)make 4M viable or somewhat viable against Templar openings.


No terran ever will rely on widow mines vs a protoss. As a harassment option, yep, but not as a component in your main army. Storm outranges WM, Colossi outrange WM, the additional gas will be taken out of medivac/viking/marauder production etc.

Why? Splash damage + zone control is what bio desperately needs against mass Zealots. Storm outranging Mines doesn't matter since you can spread them the way you would do vs Zerg; plus it takes 2 Storms to kill a Mine. Colossi or Stalkers outranging Mines doesn't matter since you only play them against Templar openings.


Protoss has a auto-split (charge) which will ofc not ever work fine but will reduce the widow mine's efficiency due to the already weak damage distribution in the projectile's hit radius.

Then again, you're right, you can pre-spread your mines, but the protoss might just snipe them with long range colossus (assumend you have enough mines to spread, protoss will at least have colossus or templar tech available). If no colossus available (which is kind of unrealistic since early mine harass is much stronger and will enforce more robo openings), protoss can still fall back on his bases and turtle on 2-3 bases (or, just use one of the strengths of the race and go all-in). Yes, it takes two storms to kill a mine, but at the same time, storms are great for zoning out the bio army, which would make stalkers able to snipe the remaining hitpoints. But I think our argumentation goes too hard into detailed theorycrafting, we will have to see how the meta game develops. Then again, DK won't give the meta game time to develop, since this game appears to still be in a beta test. I think DK's goal should just be to keep the game interesteing (as I said repeatedly, address the swarm host/mech turtle/stupid long games without any excitement issue) and use LotV to change this in a greater scope. But ofc he won't do this

No you are missing the window in which mines are used.

You can get a reactor on your factory after you have 3 rax + 1 SP up. If Toss opened storm, observers or at least anti-mine is hard to come by: Mines zone Protoss out.

Offcourse you'll transition out of them when they don't work anymore.
Mura Ma Man, Dark Da Dude, Super Shot Sos!
shin_toss
Profile Joined May 2010
Philippines2589 Posts
February 11 2014 11:22 GMT
#714
On February 11 2014 20:20 SC2Toastie wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 11 2014 20:17 shin_toss wrote:
Lol if this is the only reason to shut the Z and T QQ'ers (that actually needs to l2p). I'm all for it

Don't check the stats bro :O!



because only the games of pro gamers matters? sure.
AKMU / IU
goody153
Profile Blog Joined April 2013
44119 Posts
February 11 2014 11:24 GMT
#715
On February 11 2014 20:21 Destructicon wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 11 2014 19:54 goody153 wrote:
On February 11 2014 19:24 Destructicon wrote:
Ok, stealing this from reddit. This is how the proposed nerfs would look in game.
http://imgur.com/a/Wn9rN

This should be added in the OP..

Anyways from the GIF's..

>The MSC vision nerf is pretty good.
>Whoa I think the blink decrease is too much. That cannot go through or at least just maybe 12 sec cd. Not 15 i think that would be too much
>Thinking that widow mines normally don't set off against protoss deathball due to colossus and stalkers so the change will not be devastating. And it will only add to the effectiveness of WM vs toss means this could finally mean a area control unit that is not ghost that can be used vs toss. And widow mines will no longer be a harrassment unit anymore. This won't change much WM rarely hits protoss deathball anyways.
>Hydra attack speed increase doesn't change much. Still it could be more powerful.
> Well the tempest change hinders turtling a little. That is for sure but why don't just blizzard redesign SH instead of buffing tempest. It would be much better.



I think WM might be way better then Hellbats in against chargelot archon strats, a couple of shots could absolutely devastate a group of chargelots. However late game you probably still will want to phase them out and get a mass of ghosts and vikings to support the bio army.

Also WM might be a lot better at shutting down zealot harass now in conjuncture with sim cities and static defense.

Uhm uh~uh .. Hellbat is way better since they don't have a a huge chance to blow your own marines and Hellbats are a guarantee to deal damage. Widow Mines will normally get outranged. but yeah this will work vs chargelot heavy comps.
this is a quote
SC2Toastie
Profile Blog Joined October 2013
Netherlands5725 Posts
February 11 2014 11:24 GMT
#716
On February 11 2014 20:22 shin_toss wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 11 2014 20:20 SC2Toastie wrote:
On February 11 2014 20:17 shin_toss wrote:
Lol if this is the only reason to shut the Z and T QQ'ers (that actually needs to l2p). I'm all for it

Don't check the stats bro :O!



because only the games of pro gamers matters? sure.

What exactly are you arguing?

You say David patches this just because Terran and Zerg players are qqing.
I say you should take a look at the stats and see some change is warranted.

Are you gonna tell me progamer statistics are not indicative of balance problems?
Mura Ma Man, Dark Da Dude, Super Shot Sos!
MasterOfPuppets
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
Romania6942 Posts
February 11 2014 11:24 GMT
#717
On February 11 2014 20:22 shin_toss wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 11 2014 20:20 SC2Toastie wrote:
On February 11 2014 20:17 shin_toss wrote:
Lol if this is the only reason to shut the Z and T QQ'ers (that actually needs to l2p). I'm all for it

Don't check the stats bro :O!



because only the games of pro gamers matters? sure.


Well yeah...
"my shaft scares me too" - strenx 2014
SC2Toastie
Profile Blog Joined October 2013
Netherlands5725 Posts
February 11 2014 11:25 GMT
#718
On February 11 2014 20:24 goody153 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 11 2014 20:21 Destructicon wrote:
On February 11 2014 19:54 goody153 wrote:
On February 11 2014 19:24 Destructicon wrote:
Ok, stealing this from reddit. This is how the proposed nerfs would look in game.
http://imgur.com/a/Wn9rN

This should be added in the OP..

Anyways from the GIF's..

>The MSC vision nerf is pretty good.
>Whoa I think the blink decrease is too much. That cannot go through or at least just maybe 12 sec cd. Not 15 i think that would be too much
>Thinking that widow mines normally don't set off against protoss deathball due to colossus and stalkers so the change will not be devastating. And it will only add to the effectiveness of WM vs toss means this could finally mean a area control unit that is not ghost that can be used vs toss. And widow mines will no longer be a harrassment unit anymore. This won't change much WM rarely hits protoss deathball anyways.
>Hydra attack speed increase doesn't change much. Still it could be more powerful.
> Well the tempest change hinders turtling a little. That is for sure but why don't just blizzard redesign SH instead of buffing tempest. It would be much better.



I think WM might be way better then Hellbats in against chargelot archon strats, a couple of shots could absolutely devastate a group of chargelots. However late game you probably still will want to phase them out and get a mass of ghosts and vikings to support the bio army.

Also WM might be a lot better at shutting down zealot harass now in conjuncture with sim cities and static defense.

Uhm uh~uh .. Hellbat is way better since they don't have a a huge chance to blow your own marines and Hellbats are a guarantee to deal damage. Widow Mines will normally get outranged. but yeah this will work vs chargelot heavy comps.

We're talking low hellbat count and bio armies which get micro-d here, in which hellbats are more of a liability.
Mura Ma Man, Dark Da Dude, Super Shot Sos!
TheDwf
Profile Joined November 2011
France19747 Posts
February 11 2014 11:27 GMT
#719
On February 11 2014 19:59 boxerfred wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 11 2014 19:25 TheDwf wrote:
On February 11 2014 19:19 boxerfred wrote:
On February 11 2014 18:58 TheDwf wrote:
On February 11 2014 18:55 maXX_CZ wrote:
WM:
Dunno, i dont see this somewhat effective in later stages (obs). So it basically buffs only marine medivac mine drop early?

Nope, it would also (re)make 4M viable or somewhat viable against Templar openings.


No terran ever will rely on widow mines vs a protoss. As a harassment option, yep, but not as a component in your main army. Storm outranges WM, Colossi outrange WM, the additional gas will be taken out of medivac/viking/marauder production etc.

Why? Splash damage + zone control is what bio desperately needs against mass Zealots. Storm outranging Mines doesn't matter since you can spread them the way you would do vs Zerg; plus it takes 2 Storms to kill a Mine. Colossi or Stalkers outranging Mines doesn't matter since you only play them against Templar openings.


Protoss has a auto-split (charge) which will ofc not ever work fine but will reduce the widow mine's efficiency due to the already weak damage distribution in the projectile's hit radius.

Then again, you're right, you can pre-spread your mines, but the protoss might just snipe them with long range colossus (assumend you have enough mines to spread, protoss will at least have colossus or templar tech available). If no colossus available (which is kind of unrealistic since early mine harass is much stronger and will enforce more robo openings), protoss can still fall back on his bases and turtle on 2-3 bases (or, just use one of the strengths of the race and go all-in). Yes, it takes two storms to kill a mine, but at the same time, storms are great for zoning out the bio army, which would make stalkers able to snipe the remaining hitpoints. But I think our argumentation goes too hard into detailed theorycrafting, we will have to see how the meta game develops. Then again, DK won't give the meta game time to develop, since this game appears to still be in a beta test. I think DK's goal should just be to keep the game interesteing (as I said repeatedly, address the swarm host/mech turtle/stupid long games without any excitement issue) and use LotV to change this in a greater scope. But ofc he won't do this

Personally I am not theorycrafting, I used to play 4M vs Templar before the Mine nerf and it worked decently. There are no Colossi on the field for several minuts when Protoss opens Templar, and robo for detection doesn't mean Protoss is forced to go Colossi afterwards (not to mention Oracles or Cannons protect against Mine drops too).
Destructicon
Profile Blog Joined September 2011
4713 Posts
February 11 2014 11:28 GMT
#720
On February 11 2014 20:24 goody153 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 11 2014 20:21 Destructicon wrote:
On February 11 2014 19:54 goody153 wrote:
On February 11 2014 19:24 Destructicon wrote:
Ok, stealing this from reddit. This is how the proposed nerfs would look in game.
http://imgur.com/a/Wn9rN

This should be added in the OP..

Anyways from the GIF's..

>The MSC vision nerf is pretty good.
>Whoa I think the blink decrease is too much. That cannot go through or at least just maybe 12 sec cd. Not 15 i think that would be too much
>Thinking that widow mines normally don't set off against protoss deathball due to colossus and stalkers so the change will not be devastating. And it will only add to the effectiveness of WM vs toss means this could finally mean a area control unit that is not ghost that can be used vs toss. And widow mines will no longer be a harrassment unit anymore. This won't change much WM rarely hits protoss deathball anyways.
>Hydra attack speed increase doesn't change much. Still it could be more powerful.
> Well the tempest change hinders turtling a little. That is for sure but why don't just blizzard redesign SH instead of buffing tempest. It would be much better.



I think WM might be way better then Hellbats in against chargelot archon strats, a couple of shots could absolutely devastate a group of chargelots. However late game you probably still will want to phase them out and get a mass of ghosts and vikings to support the bio army.

Also WM might be a lot better at shutting down zealot harass now in conjuncture with sim cities and static defense.

Uhm uh~uh .. Hellbat is way better since they don't have a a huge chance to blow your own marines and Hellbats are a guarantee to deal damage. Widow Mines will normally get outranged. but yeah this will work vs chargelot heavy comps.


Well, if you say, bait out a charge from all the zealots on top of a WM, the splash to your own units will be minimal while their army takes massive damage. And yes, regularly WM gets outranged hard by protoss, so what I said only affects that small window of time until protoss can transition into robo, obs, colossus and some stalkers. As in, this could maybe be a timing to kill the toss before the transition can happen, or just gain a small lead.
WriterNever give up, never surrender! https://www.youtube.com/user/DestructiconSC
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