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On February 11 2014 19:24 Destructicon wrote:Ok, stealing this from reddit. This is how the proposed nerfs would look in game. http://imgur.com/a/Wn9rN
This should be added in the OP..
Anyways from the GIF's..
>The MSC vision nerf is pretty good.
>Whoa I think the blink decrease is too much. That cannot go through or at least just maybe 12 sec cd. Not 15 i think that would be too much
>Thinking that widow mines normally don't set off against protoss deathball due to colossus and stalkers so the change will not be devastating. And it will only add to the effectiveness of WM vs toss means this could finally mean a area control unit that is not ghost that can be used vs toss. And widow mines will no longer be a harrassment unit anymore. This won't change much WM rarely hits protoss deathball anyways.
>Hydra attack speed increase doesn't change much. Still it could be more powerful.
> Well the tempest change hinders turtling a little. That is for sure but why don't just blizzard redesign SH instead of buffing tempest. It would be much better.
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On February 11 2014 19:49 MasterOfPuppets wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2014 19:26 ETisME wrote:On February 11 2014 19:24 Destructicon wrote:Ok, stealing this from reddit. This is how the proposed nerfs would look in game. http://imgur.com/a/Wn9rN that mine hit against immortals is crazy good, a few immortals shield were completely gone also the vision nerf is a bit too much for my taste.
I thought the buff to damage vs shields was only for the one target you directly hit, and not the splash as well?
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On February 11 2014 19:56 MasterOfPuppets wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2014 19:49 MasterOfPuppets wrote:On February 11 2014 19:26 ETisME wrote:On February 11 2014 19:24 Destructicon wrote:Ok, stealing this from reddit. This is how the proposed nerfs would look in game. http://imgur.com/a/Wn9rN that mine hit against immortals is crazy good, a few immortals shield were completely gone also the vision nerf is a bit too much for my taste.
I thought the buff to damage vs shields was only for the one target you directly hit, and not the splash as well?
then the buff would actually be useless if that were the case since against toss widow-mines hardly ever triggers due to colossi and stalkers.
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On February 11 2014 19:24 Destructicon wrote:Ok, stealing this from reddit. This is how the proposed nerfs would look in game. http://imgur.com/a/Wn9rN
Great that you posted it here, it should open eyes to all those who are bitching about hydra buff, difference is really small and lets face it hydra needs some kind of a buff.
The only change that is questionable is blink nerf but I think protoss are just overreatcting here as it shuts down one of their favourite all in strat.
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On February 11 2014 19:25 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2014 19:19 boxerfred wrote:On February 11 2014 18:58 TheDwf wrote:On February 11 2014 18:55 maXX_CZ wrote:
WM:
Dunno, i dont see this somewhat effective in later stages (obs). So it basically buffs only marine medivac mine drop early? Nope, it would also (re)make 4M viable or somewhat viable against Templar openings. No terran ever will rely on widow mines vs a protoss. As a harassment option, yep, but not as a component in your main army. Storm outranges WM, Colossi outrange WM, the additional gas will be taken out of medivac/viking/marauder production etc. Why? Splash damage + zone control is what bio desperately needs against mass Zealots. Storm outranging Mines doesn't matter since you can spread them the way you would do vs Zerg; plus it takes 2 Storms to kill a Mine. Colossi or Stalkers outranging Mines doesn't matter since you only play them against Templar openings.
Protoss has a auto-split (charge) which will ofc not ever work fine but will reduce the widow mine's efficiency due to the already weak damage distribution in the projectile's hit radius.
Then again, you're right, you can pre-spread your mines, but the protoss might just snipe them with long range colossus (assumend you have enough mines to spread, protoss will at least have colossus or templar tech available). If no colossus available (which is kind of unrealistic since early mine harass is much stronger and will enforce more robo openings), protoss can still fall back on his bases and turtle on 2-3 bases (or, just use one of the strengths of the race and go all-in). Yes, it takes two storms to kill a mine, but at the same time, storms are great for zoning out the bio army, which would make stalkers able to snipe the remaining hitpoints. But I think our argumentation goes too hard into detailed theorycrafting, we will have to see how the meta game develops. Then again, DK won't give the meta game time to develop, since this game appears to still be in a beta test. I think DK's goal should just be to keep the game interesteing (as I said repeatedly, address the swarm host/mech turtle/stupid long games without any excitement issue) and use LotV to change this in a greater scope. But ofc he won't do this
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On February 11 2014 19:56 MasterOfPuppets wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2014 19:49 MasterOfPuppets wrote:On February 11 2014 19:26 ETisME wrote:On February 11 2014 19:24 Destructicon wrote:Ok, stealing this from reddit. This is how the proposed nerfs would look in game. http://imgur.com/a/Wn9rN that mine hit against immortals is crazy good, a few immortals shield were completely gone also the vision nerf is a bit too much for my taste.
I thought the buff to damage vs shields was only for the one target you directly hit, and not the splash as well?
Its only for the splash.
That has me thinking, is the splash damage considered a spell aswell? Or does the +40 shields ignore hardened shields regardless of being spell damage or not?
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Many just whining without even having tried the new balance changes, So what if you cant go with your old build you have used for 2 decades? so what? Maybe it's time to try something new? And i'm pretty sure blink will work even with a 15s cd, its not out of the game like some here may think... But i'll have to admit that i didn't see the blink cd change coming. And as always, it's for testing purpose.
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On February 11 2014 20:01 NovaMB wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2014 19:56 MasterOfPuppets wrote:On February 11 2014 19:49 MasterOfPuppets wrote:On February 11 2014 19:26 ETisME wrote:On February 11 2014 19:24 Destructicon wrote:Ok, stealing this from reddit. This is how the proposed nerfs would look in game. http://imgur.com/a/Wn9rN that mine hit against immortals is crazy good, a few immortals shield were completely gone also the vision nerf is a bit too much for my taste.
I thought the buff to damage vs shields was only for the one target you directly hit, and not the splash as well? Its only for the splash.
Couple of months later down the line and all we see is a different type of 1/1/1 timing.... zzz
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Russian Federation262 Posts
On February 11 2014 20:02 MidnightZL wrote:
Many just whining without even having tried the new balance changes, So what if you cant go with your old build you have used for 2 decades? so what? Maybe it's time to try something new? And i'm pretty sure blink will work even with a 15s cd, its not out of the game like some here may think... But i'll have to admit that i didn't see the blink cd change coming. And as always, it's for testing purpose.
Totally agree. Everyone must act in a good manner.
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Lol if this is the only reason to shut the Z and T QQ'ers (that actually needs to l2p). I'm all for it 
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On February 11 2014 20:17 shin_toss wrote:Lol if this is the only reason to shut the Z and T QQ'ers (that actually needs to l2p). I'm all for it
Don't check the stats bro :O!
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4713 Posts
On February 11 2014 19:54 goody153 wrote:This should be added in the OP.. Anyways from the GIF's.. >The MSC vision nerf is pretty good. >Whoa I think the blink decrease is too much. That cannot go through or at least just maybe 12 sec cd. Not 15 i think that would be too much >Thinking that widow mines normally don't set off against protoss deathball due to colossus and stalkers so the change will not be devastating. And it will only add to the effectiveness of WM vs toss means this could finally mean a area control unit that is not ghost that can be used vs toss. And widow mines will no longer be a harrassment unit anymore. This won't change much WM rarely hits protoss deathball anyways. >Hydra attack speed increase doesn't change much. Still it could be more powerful. > Well the tempest change hinders turtling a little. That is for sure but why don't just blizzard redesign SH instead of buffing tempest. It would be much better.
I think WM might be way better then Hellbats in against chargelot archon strats, a couple of shots could absolutely devastate a group of chargelots. However late game you probably still will want to phase them out and get a mass of ghosts and vikings to support the bio army.
Also WM might be a lot better at shutting down zealot harass now in conjuncture with sim cities and static defense.
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On February 11 2014 19:59 boxerfred wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2014 19:25 TheDwf wrote:On February 11 2014 19:19 boxerfred wrote:On February 11 2014 18:58 TheDwf wrote:On February 11 2014 18:55 maXX_CZ wrote:
WM:
Dunno, i dont see this somewhat effective in later stages (obs). So it basically buffs only marine medivac mine drop early? Nope, it would also (re)make 4M viable or somewhat viable against Templar openings. No terran ever will rely on widow mines vs a protoss. As a harassment option, yep, but not as a component in your main army. Storm outranges WM, Colossi outrange WM, the additional gas will be taken out of medivac/viking/marauder production etc. Why? Splash damage + zone control is what bio desperately needs against mass Zealots. Storm outranging Mines doesn't matter since you can spread them the way you would do vs Zerg; plus it takes 2 Storms to kill a Mine. Colossi or Stalkers outranging Mines doesn't matter since you only play them against Templar openings. Protoss has a auto-split (charge) which will ofc not ever work fine but will reduce the widow mine's efficiency due to the already weak damage distribution in the projectile's hit radius. Then again, you're right, you can pre-spread your mines, but the protoss might just snipe them with long range colossus (assumend you have enough mines to spread, protoss will at least have colossus or templar tech available). If no colossus available (which is kind of unrealistic since early mine harass is much stronger and will enforce more robo openings), protoss can still fall back on his bases and turtle on 2-3 bases (or, just use one of the strengths of the race and go all-in). Yes, it takes two storms to kill a mine, but at the same time, storms are great for zoning out the bio army, which would make stalkers able to snipe the remaining hitpoints. But I think our argumentation goes too hard into detailed theorycrafting, we will have to see how the meta game develops. Then again, DK won't give the meta game time to develop, since this game appears to still be in a beta test. I think DK's goal should just be to keep the game interesteing (as I said repeatedly, address the swarm host/mech turtle/stupid long games without any excitement issue) and use LotV to change this in a greater scope. But ofc he won't do this
No you are missing the window in which mines are used.
You can get a reactor on your factory after you have 3 rax + 1 SP up. If Toss opened storm, observers or at least anti-mine is hard to come by: Mines zone Protoss out.
Offcourse you'll transition out of them when they don't work anymore.
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On February 11 2014 20:20 SC2Toastie wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2014 20:17 shin_toss wrote:Lol if this is the only reason to shut the Z and T QQ'ers (that actually needs to l2p). I'm all for it Don't check the stats bro :O!
because only the games of pro gamers matters? sure.
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On February 11 2014 20:21 Destructicon wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2014 19:54 goody153 wrote:On February 11 2014 19:24 Destructicon wrote:Ok, stealing this from reddit. This is how the proposed nerfs would look in game. http://imgur.com/a/Wn9rN This should be added in the OP.. Anyways from the GIF's.. >The MSC vision nerf is pretty good. >Whoa I think the blink decrease is too much. That cannot go through or at least just maybe 12 sec cd. Not 15 i think that would be too much >Thinking that widow mines normally don't set off against protoss deathball due to colossus and stalkers so the change will not be devastating. And it will only add to the effectiveness of WM vs toss means this could finally mean a area control unit that is not ghost that can be used vs toss. And widow mines will no longer be a harrassment unit anymore. This won't change much WM rarely hits protoss deathball anyways. >Hydra attack speed increase doesn't change much. Still it could be more powerful. > Well the tempest change hinders turtling a little. That is for sure but why don't just blizzard redesign SH instead of buffing tempest. It would be much better. I think WM might be way better then Hellbats in against chargelot archon strats, a couple of shots could absolutely devastate a group of chargelots. However late game you probably still will want to phase them out and get a mass of ghosts and vikings to support the bio army. Also WM might be a lot better at shutting down zealot harass now in conjuncture with sim cities and static defense.
Uhm uh~uh .. Hellbat is way better since they don't have a a huge chance to blow your own marines and Hellbats are a guarantee to deal damage. Widow Mines will normally get outranged. but yeah this will work vs chargelot heavy comps.
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On February 11 2014 20:22 shin_toss wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2014 20:20 SC2Toastie wrote:On February 11 2014 20:17 shin_toss wrote:Lol if this is the only reason to shut the Z and T QQ'ers (that actually needs to l2p). I'm all for it Don't check the stats bro :O! because only the games of pro gamers matters? sure.
What exactly are you arguing?
You say David patches this just because Terran and Zerg players are qqing.
I say you should take a look at the stats and see some change is warranted.
Are you gonna tell me progamer statistics are not indicative of balance problems?
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On February 11 2014 20:22 shin_toss wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2014 20:20 SC2Toastie wrote:On February 11 2014 20:17 shin_toss wrote:Lol if this is the only reason to shut the Z and T QQ'ers (that actually needs to l2p). I'm all for it Don't check the stats bro :O! because only the games of pro gamers matters? sure.
Well yeah...
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On February 11 2014 20:24 goody153 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2014 20:21 Destructicon wrote:On February 11 2014 19:54 goody153 wrote:On February 11 2014 19:24 Destructicon wrote:Ok, stealing this from reddit. This is how the proposed nerfs would look in game. http://imgur.com/a/Wn9rN This should be added in the OP.. Anyways from the GIF's.. >The MSC vision nerf is pretty good. >Whoa I think the blink decrease is too much. That cannot go through or at least just maybe 12 sec cd. Not 15 i think that would be too much >Thinking that widow mines normally don't set off against protoss deathball due to colossus and stalkers so the change will not be devastating. And it will only add to the effectiveness of WM vs toss means this could finally mean a area control unit that is not ghost that can be used vs toss. And widow mines will no longer be a harrassment unit anymore. This won't change much WM rarely hits protoss deathball anyways. >Hydra attack speed increase doesn't change much. Still it could be more powerful. > Well the tempest change hinders turtling a little. That is for sure but why don't just blizzard redesign SH instead of buffing tempest. It would be much better. I think WM might be way better then Hellbats in against chargelot archon strats, a couple of shots could absolutely devastate a group of chargelots. However late game you probably still will want to phase them out and get a mass of ghosts and vikings to support the bio army. Also WM might be a lot better at shutting down zealot harass now in conjuncture with sim cities and static defense. Uhm uh~uh .. Hellbat is way better since they don't have a a huge chance to blow your own marines and Hellbats are a guarantee to deal damage. Widow Mines will normally get outranged. but yeah this will work vs chargelot heavy comps.
We're talking low hellbat count and bio armies which get micro-d here, in which hellbats are more of a liability.
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On February 11 2014 19:59 boxerfred wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2014 19:25 TheDwf wrote:On February 11 2014 19:19 boxerfred wrote:On February 11 2014 18:58 TheDwf wrote:On February 11 2014 18:55 maXX_CZ wrote:
WM:
Dunno, i dont see this somewhat effective in later stages (obs). So it basically buffs only marine medivac mine drop early? Nope, it would also (re)make 4M viable or somewhat viable against Templar openings. No terran ever will rely on widow mines vs a protoss. As a harassment option, yep, but not as a component in your main army. Storm outranges WM, Colossi outrange WM, the additional gas will be taken out of medivac/viking/marauder production etc. Why? Splash damage + zone control is what bio desperately needs against mass Zealots. Storm outranging Mines doesn't matter since you can spread them the way you would do vs Zerg; plus it takes 2 Storms to kill a Mine. Colossi or Stalkers outranging Mines doesn't matter since you only play them against Templar openings. Protoss has a auto-split (charge) which will ofc not ever work fine but will reduce the widow mine's efficiency due to the already weak damage distribution in the projectile's hit radius. Then again, you're right, you can pre-spread your mines, but the protoss might just snipe them with long range colossus (assumend you have enough mines to spread, protoss will at least have colossus or templar tech available). If no colossus available (which is kind of unrealistic since early mine harass is much stronger and will enforce more robo openings), protoss can still fall back on his bases and turtle on 2-3 bases (or, just use one of the strengths of the race and go all-in). Yes, it takes two storms to kill a mine, but at the same time, storms are great for zoning out the bio army, which would make stalkers able to snipe the remaining hitpoints. But I think our argumentation goes too hard into detailed theorycrafting, we will have to see how the meta game develops. Then again, DK won't give the meta game time to develop, since this game appears to still be in a beta test. I think DK's goal should just be to keep the game interesteing (as I said repeatedly, address the swarm host/mech turtle/stupid long games without any excitement issue) and use LotV to change this in a greater scope. But ofc he won't do this
Personally I am not theorycrafting, I used to play 4M vs Templar before the Mine nerf and it worked decently. There are no Colossi on the field for several minuts when Protoss opens Templar, and robo for detection doesn't mean Protoss is forced to go Colossi afterwards (not to mention Oracles or Cannons protect against Mine drops too).
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4713 Posts
On February 11 2014 20:24 goody153 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2014 20:21 Destructicon wrote:On February 11 2014 19:54 goody153 wrote:On February 11 2014 19:24 Destructicon wrote:Ok, stealing this from reddit. This is how the proposed nerfs would look in game. http://imgur.com/a/Wn9rN This should be added in the OP.. Anyways from the GIF's.. >The MSC vision nerf is pretty good. >Whoa I think the blink decrease is too much. That cannot go through or at least just maybe 12 sec cd. Not 15 i think that would be too much >Thinking that widow mines normally don't set off against protoss deathball due to colossus and stalkers so the change will not be devastating. And it will only add to the effectiveness of WM vs toss means this could finally mean a area control unit that is not ghost that can be used vs toss. And widow mines will no longer be a harrassment unit anymore. This won't change much WM rarely hits protoss deathball anyways. >Hydra attack speed increase doesn't change much. Still it could be more powerful. > Well the tempest change hinders turtling a little. That is for sure but why don't just blizzard redesign SH instead of buffing tempest. It would be much better. I think WM might be way better then Hellbats in against chargelot archon strats, a couple of shots could absolutely devastate a group of chargelots. However late game you probably still will want to phase them out and get a mass of ghosts and vikings to support the bio army. Also WM might be a lot better at shutting down zealot harass now in conjuncture with sim cities and static defense. Uhm uh~uh .. Hellbat is way better since they don't have a a huge chance to blow your own marines and Hellbats are a guarantee to deal damage. Widow Mines will normally get outranged. but yeah this will work vs chargelot heavy comps.
Well, if you say, bait out a charge from all the zealots on top of a WM, the splash to your own units will be minimal while their army takes massive damage. And yes, regularly WM gets outranged hard by protoss, so what I said only affects that small window of time until protoss can transition into robo, obs, colossus and some stalkers. As in, this could maybe be a timing to kill the toss before the transition can happen, or just gain a small lead.
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EPT
