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On February 11 2014 20:25 SC2Toastie wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2014 20:24 goody153 wrote:On February 11 2014 20:21 Destructicon wrote:On February 11 2014 19:54 goody153 wrote:On February 11 2014 19:24 Destructicon wrote:Ok, stealing this from reddit. This is how the proposed nerfs would look in game. http://imgur.com/a/Wn9rN This should be added in the OP.. Anyways from the GIF's.. >The MSC vision nerf is pretty good. >Whoa I think the blink decrease is too much. That cannot go through or at least just maybe 12 sec cd. Not 15 i think that would be too much >Thinking that widow mines normally don't set off against protoss deathball due to colossus and stalkers so the change will not be devastating. And it will only add to the effectiveness of WM vs toss means this could finally mean a area control unit that is not ghost that can be used vs toss. And widow mines will no longer be a harrassment unit anymore. This won't change much WM rarely hits protoss deathball anyways. >Hydra attack speed increase doesn't change much. Still it could be more powerful. > Well the tempest change hinders turtling a little. That is for sure but why don't just blizzard redesign SH instead of buffing tempest. It would be much better. I think WM might be way better then Hellbats in against chargelot archon strats, a couple of shots could absolutely devastate a group of chargelots. However late game you probably still will want to phase them out and get a mass of ghosts and vikings to support the bio army. Also WM might be a lot better at shutting down zealot harass now in conjuncture with sim cities and static defense. Uhm uh~uh .. Hellbat is way better since they don't have a a huge chance to blow your own marines and Hellbats are a guarantee to deal damage. Widow Mines will normally get outranged. but yeah this will work vs chargelot heavy comps. We're talking low hellbat count and bio armies which get micro-d here, in which hellbats are more of a liability.
Oh ok i agree. Widow mines will help zone out. Maybe this will be a clever buff since this will force toss not to be so greedy with one tech and open robo all the time if not reuse oracle. So that toss doesn't take devastating hits from clumped mines.
I think this will be good. Since you know all terrans complain about is that they can't punish toss if they go greedy while if they do they get punished so easily. This will force protoss to not always have the economic advantage since they will need detection.
Just my assumption though.
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On February 11 2014 20:24 goody153 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2014 20:21 Destructicon wrote:On February 11 2014 19:54 goody153 wrote:On February 11 2014 19:24 Destructicon wrote:Ok, stealing this from reddit. This is how the proposed nerfs would look in game. http://imgur.com/a/Wn9rN This should be added in the OP.. Anyways from the GIF's.. >The MSC vision nerf is pretty good. >Whoa I think the blink decrease is too much. That cannot go through or at least just maybe 12 sec cd. Not 15 i think that would be too much >Thinking that widow mines normally don't set off against protoss deathball due to colossus and stalkers so the change will not be devastating. And it will only add to the effectiveness of WM vs toss means this could finally mean a area control unit that is not ghost that can be used vs toss. And widow mines will no longer be a harrassment unit anymore. This won't change much WM rarely hits protoss deathball anyways. >Hydra attack speed increase doesn't change much. Still it could be more powerful. > Well the tempest change hinders turtling a little. That is for sure but why don't just blizzard redesign SH instead of buffing tempest. It would be much better. I think WM might be way better then Hellbats in against chargelot archon strats, a couple of shots could absolutely devastate a group of chargelots. However late game you probably still will want to phase them out and get a mass of ghosts and vikings to support the bio army. Also WM might be a lot better at shutting down zealot harass now in conjuncture with sim cities and static defense. Uhm uh~uh .. Hellbat is way better since they don't have a a huge chance to blow your own marines and Hellbats are a guarantee to deal damage. Widow Mines will normally get outranged. but yeah this will work vs chargelot heavy comps.
Hellbats are really bad against Zealots/Archons/Storm. Even the current Mine outperforms them.
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Northern Ireland27287 Posts
People who are complaining about the potential impact of the blink change tend to be the ones who dislike blink allins
With a big amount of stalkers, 10+ it's not actually going to make a big difference anyway because you blink ones at the front to the back and cooldown will reset. Especially the case of blink allins vs Zerg
What it does do is mess with Twilight PvP, things like the 4 stalker harass to snipe probes and general play when you split your stalkers from your main army. In short the stuff skilled players can do to separate themselves from the 60 APM, A-move heroes. Protoss needs more finesse/skill rewarding units, not nerfs to the one we have.
Even looking at the gif that MSC vision change is massive, you have a lot less intell as to what you'll be blinking up into
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On February 11 2014 20:28 Destructicon wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2014 20:24 goody153 wrote:On February 11 2014 20:21 Destructicon wrote:On February 11 2014 19:54 goody153 wrote:On February 11 2014 19:24 Destructicon wrote:Ok, stealing this from reddit. This is how the proposed nerfs would look in game. http://imgur.com/a/Wn9rN This should be added in the OP.. Anyways from the GIF's.. >The MSC vision nerf is pretty good. >Whoa I think the blink decrease is too much. That cannot go through or at least just maybe 12 sec cd. Not 15 i think that would be too much >Thinking that widow mines normally don't set off against protoss deathball due to colossus and stalkers so the change will not be devastating. And it will only add to the effectiveness of WM vs toss means this could finally mean a area control unit that is not ghost that can be used vs toss. And widow mines will no longer be a harrassment unit anymore. This won't change much WM rarely hits protoss deathball anyways. >Hydra attack speed increase doesn't change much. Still it could be more powerful. > Well the tempest change hinders turtling a little. That is for sure but why don't just blizzard redesign SH instead of buffing tempest. It would be much better. I think WM might be way better then Hellbats in against chargelot archon strats, a couple of shots could absolutely devastate a group of chargelots. However late game you probably still will want to phase them out and get a mass of ghosts and vikings to support the bio army. Also WM might be a lot better at shutting down zealot harass now in conjuncture with sim cities and static defense. Uhm uh~uh .. Hellbat is way better since they don't have a a huge chance to blow your own marines and Hellbats are a guarantee to deal damage. Widow Mines will normally get outranged. but yeah this will work vs chargelot heavy comps. Well, if you say, bait out a charge from all the zealots on top of a WM, the splash to your own units will be minimal while their army takes massive damage. And yes, regularly WM gets outranged hard by protoss, so what I said only affects that small window of time until protoss can transition into robo, obs, colossus and some stalkers. As in, this could maybe be a timing to kill the toss before the transition can happen, or just gain a small lead.
Good point. This will still help terran more vs toss. At least building a couple mines won't be stupid anymore.
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On February 11 2014 20:30 goody153 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2014 20:25 SC2Toastie wrote:On February 11 2014 20:24 goody153 wrote:On February 11 2014 20:21 Destructicon wrote:On February 11 2014 19:54 goody153 wrote:On February 11 2014 19:24 Destructicon wrote:Ok, stealing this from reddit. This is how the proposed nerfs would look in game. http://imgur.com/a/Wn9rN This should be added in the OP.. Anyways from the GIF's.. >The MSC vision nerf is pretty good. >Whoa I think the blink decrease is too much. That cannot go through or at least just maybe 12 sec cd. Not 15 i think that would be too much >Thinking that widow mines normally don't set off against protoss deathball due to colossus and stalkers so the change will not be devastating. And it will only add to the effectiveness of WM vs toss means this could finally mean a area control unit that is not ghost that can be used vs toss. And widow mines will no longer be a harrassment unit anymore. This won't change much WM rarely hits protoss deathball anyways. >Hydra attack speed increase doesn't change much. Still it could be more powerful. > Well the tempest change hinders turtling a little. That is for sure but why don't just blizzard redesign SH instead of buffing tempest. It would be much better. I think WM might be way better then Hellbats in against chargelot archon strats, a couple of shots could absolutely devastate a group of chargelots. However late game you probably still will want to phase them out and get a mass of ghosts and vikings to support the bio army. Also WM might be a lot better at shutting down zealot harass now in conjuncture with sim cities and static defense. Uhm uh~uh .. Hellbat is way better since they don't have a a huge chance to blow your own marines and Hellbats are a guarantee to deal damage. Widow Mines will normally get outranged. but yeah this will work vs chargelot heavy comps. We're talking low hellbat count and bio armies which get micro-d here, in which hellbats are more of a liability. Oh ok i agree. Widow mines will help zone out. Maybe this will be a clever buff since this will force toss not to be so greedy with one tech and open robo all the time if not reuse oracle. So that toss doesn't take devastating hits from clumped mines. I think this will be good. Since you know all terrans complain about is that they can't punish toss if they go greedy while if they do they get punished so easily. This will force protoss to not always have the economic advantage since they will need detection. Just my assumption though.
No - this allows Terran to far more easilly deny the third base AND/OR forces Immortal/Stalker production out of the Protoss player. And it helps vs unmicr'd zealot 1a's.
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Damn that would be a great patch for TvP !!!
Hope all changes come.
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On February 11 2014 20:32 SC2Toastie wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2014 20:30 goody153 wrote:On February 11 2014 20:25 SC2Toastie wrote:On February 11 2014 20:24 goody153 wrote:On February 11 2014 20:21 Destructicon wrote:On February 11 2014 19:54 goody153 wrote:On February 11 2014 19:24 Destructicon wrote:Ok, stealing this from reddit. This is how the proposed nerfs would look in game. http://imgur.com/a/Wn9rN This should be added in the OP.. Anyways from the GIF's.. >The MSC vision nerf is pretty good. >Whoa I think the blink decrease is too much. That cannot go through or at least just maybe 12 sec cd. Not 15 i think that would be too much >Thinking that widow mines normally don't set off against protoss deathball due to colossus and stalkers so the change will not be devastating. And it will only add to the effectiveness of WM vs toss means this could finally mean a area control unit that is not ghost that can be used vs toss. And widow mines will no longer be a harrassment unit anymore. This won't change much WM rarely hits protoss deathball anyways. >Hydra attack speed increase doesn't change much. Still it could be more powerful. > Well the tempest change hinders turtling a little. That is for sure but why don't just blizzard redesign SH instead of buffing tempest. It would be much better. I think WM might be way better then Hellbats in against chargelot archon strats, a couple of shots could absolutely devastate a group of chargelots. However late game you probably still will want to phase them out and get a mass of ghosts and vikings to support the bio army. Also WM might be a lot better at shutting down zealot harass now in conjuncture with sim cities and static defense. Uhm uh~uh .. Hellbat is way better since they don't have a a huge chance to blow your own marines and Hellbats are a guarantee to deal damage. Widow Mines will normally get outranged. but yeah this will work vs chargelot heavy comps. We're talking low hellbat count and bio armies which get micro-d here, in which hellbats are more of a liability. Oh ok i agree. Widow mines will help zone out. Maybe this will be a clever buff since this will force toss not to be so greedy with one tech and open robo all the time if not reuse oracle. So that toss doesn't take devastating hits from clumped mines. I think this will be good. Since you know all terrans complain about is that they can't punish toss if they go greedy while if they do they get punished so easily. This will force protoss to not always have the economic advantage since they will need detection. Just my assumption though. No - this allows Terran to far more easilly deny the third base AND/OR forces Immortal/Stalker production out of the Protoss player. And it helps vs unmicr'd zealot 1a's.
Well what you are pointing out is what i was pointing out in the first paragraph i wrote.
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On February 11 2014 20:24 SC2Toastie wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2014 20:22 shin_toss wrote:On February 11 2014 20:20 SC2Toastie wrote:On February 11 2014 20:17 shin_toss wrote:Lol if this is the only reason to shut the Z and T QQ'ers (that actually needs to l2p). I'm all for it  Don't check the stats bro :O! because only the games of pro gamers matters? sure. What exactly are you arguing? You say David patches this just because Terran and Zerg players are qqing. I say you should take a look at the stats and see some change is warranted. Are you gonna tell me progamer statistics are not indicative of balance problems?
im saying the number of progamers and games are very small compared to the rest of the sc2 population.
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On February 11 2014 20:46 shin_toss wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2014 20:24 SC2Toastie wrote:On February 11 2014 20:22 shin_toss wrote:On February 11 2014 20:20 SC2Toastie wrote:On February 11 2014 20:17 shin_toss wrote:Lol if this is the only reason to shut the Z and T QQ'ers (that actually needs to l2p). I'm all for it Don't check the stats bro :O! because only the games of pro gamers matters? sure. What exactly are you arguing? You say David patches this just because Terran and Zerg players are qqing. I say you should take a look at the stats and see some change is warranted. Are you gonna tell me progamer statistics are not indicative of balance problems? im saying the number of progamers and games are very small compared to the rest of the sc2 population.
Should we balance by bronze level standards then?
Progames are the closest to perfection we can get, if you are going to argue that progames are not a good source for balance information I advise you to go to reddit or battlenet forums.
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On February 11 2014 20:37 goody153 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2014 20:32 SC2Toastie wrote:On February 11 2014 20:30 goody153 wrote:On February 11 2014 20:25 SC2Toastie wrote:On February 11 2014 20:24 goody153 wrote:On February 11 2014 20:21 Destructicon wrote:On February 11 2014 19:54 goody153 wrote:On February 11 2014 19:24 Destructicon wrote:Ok, stealing this from reddit. This is how the proposed nerfs would look in game. http://imgur.com/a/Wn9rN This should be added in the OP.. Anyways from the GIF's.. >The MSC vision nerf is pretty good. >Whoa I think the blink decrease is too much. That cannot go through or at least just maybe 12 sec cd. Not 15 i think that would be too much >Thinking that widow mines normally don't set off against protoss deathball due to colossus and stalkers so the change will not be devastating. And it will only add to the effectiveness of WM vs toss means this could finally mean a area control unit that is not ghost that can be used vs toss. And widow mines will no longer be a harrassment unit anymore. This won't change much WM rarely hits protoss deathball anyways. >Hydra attack speed increase doesn't change much. Still it could be more powerful. > Well the tempest change hinders turtling a little. That is for sure but why don't just blizzard redesign SH instead of buffing tempest. It would be much better. I think WM might be way better then Hellbats in against chargelot archon strats, a couple of shots could absolutely devastate a group of chargelots. However late game you probably still will want to phase them out and get a mass of ghosts and vikings to support the bio army. Also WM might be a lot better at shutting down zealot harass now in conjuncture with sim cities and static defense. Uhm uh~uh .. Hellbat is way better since they don't have a a huge chance to blow your own marines and Hellbats are a guarantee to deal damage. Widow Mines will normally get outranged. but yeah this will work vs chargelot heavy comps. We're talking low hellbat count and bio armies which get micro-d here, in which hellbats are more of a liability. Oh ok i agree. Widow mines will help zone out. Maybe this will be a clever buff since this will force toss not to be so greedy with one tech and open robo all the time if not reuse oracle. So that toss doesn't take devastating hits from clumped mines. I think this will be good. Since you know all terrans complain about is that they can't punish toss if they go greedy while if they do they get punished so easily. This will force protoss to not always have the economic advantage since they will need detection. Just my assumption though. No - this allows Terran to far more easilly deny the third base AND/OR forces Immortal/Stalker production out of the Protoss player. And it helps vs unmicr'd zealot 1a's. Well what you are pointing out is what i was pointing out in the first paragraph i wrote.
Sort of; it doesn't force extra tech per say, but it forces heavy commitments down the natural ramp. No more poking and forcefielding sections off if you risk losing all your zealots.
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I think a better solution is for blink research to take an extra 30-60 seconds.
I don't really think this is an option as Blink together with Stim research are currently the longest researches in the game (except tier 2,3 unit upgrade.)
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Finally some decent changes but I really dislike the blink nerf. The msc nerf is already enough regarding blink all-ins.
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On February 11 2014 20:49 SC2Toastie wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2014 20:46 shin_toss wrote:On February 11 2014 20:24 SC2Toastie wrote:On February 11 2014 20:22 shin_toss wrote:On February 11 2014 20:20 SC2Toastie wrote:On February 11 2014 20:17 shin_toss wrote:Lol if this is the only reason to shut the Z and T QQ'ers (that actually needs to l2p). I'm all for it Don't check the stats bro :O! because only the games of pro gamers matters? sure. What exactly are you arguing? You say David patches this just because Terran and Zerg players are qqing. I say you should take a look at the stats and see some change is warranted. Are you gonna tell me progamer statistics are not indicative of balance problems? im saying the number of progamers and games are very small compared to the rest of the sc2 population. Should we balance by bronze level standards then? Progames are the closest to perfection we can get, if you are going to argue that progames are not a good source for balance information I advise you to go to reddit or battlenet forums.
sorry but not all players besides Progamers are bronze league. I get the MSC nerf but Seriously? Blink nerf and hydra buff (which is perfectly fine atm) at the same time? Even its just a test map its kinda ridiculous already. Stalker from a bad core unit to a potential trash unit .I won't even mention that blink plays require good timings and execution. Most z/t players complain about deathball, then collosus should be nerfed not stalkers -_-
Lol feels like sc2 isn't a strategy game anymore, people complain more abt stuff that are perfectly fine, instead of finding a way.
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On February 11 2014 20:57 shin_toss wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2014 20:49 SC2Toastie wrote:On February 11 2014 20:46 shin_toss wrote:On February 11 2014 20:24 SC2Toastie wrote:On February 11 2014 20:22 shin_toss wrote:On February 11 2014 20:20 SC2Toastie wrote:On February 11 2014 20:17 shin_toss wrote:Lol if this is the only reason to shut the Z and T QQ'ers (that actually needs to l2p). I'm all for it Don't check the stats bro :O! because only the games of pro gamers matters? sure. What exactly are you arguing? You say David patches this just because Terran and Zerg players are qqing. I say you should take a look at the stats and see some change is warranted. Are you gonna tell me progamer statistics are not indicative of balance problems? im saying the number of progamers and games are very small compared to the rest of the sc2 population. Should we balance by bronze level standards then? Progames are the closest to perfection we can get, if you are going to argue that progames are not a good source for balance information I advise you to go to reddit or battlenet forums. sorry but not all players besides Progamers are bronze league. I get the MSC nerf but Seriously? Blink nerf and hydra buff (which is perfectly fine atm) at the same time? Even its just a test map its kinda ridiculous already. I won't even mention that blink plays require good timings and execution. Lol feels like sc2 isn't a strategy game anymore, people complain more abt stuff that are perfectly fine, instead of finding a way.
The point is that if you balance around master league, diamond etc you are going to have a horribly imbalanced game for the best players in the world (progamers). You should work your way out of your low skill problems instead of asking specific balance for you. I do agree about the direct blink nerf: the msc nerf already covers the blink all-in vsT and the direct nerf just completely kills it vs Z (and it is already not that used).
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Yeah blink is obviously perflectly fine in TvP. Almost every game sees a blink opening being on 1 base 2 bases or a fast 3rd, because it's safe and you can either all in or put lots of pressure or just fast tech without terran having a way to tell reliably. So nerfing the all-in part a bit would be cool, maybe they pushed it too far though. Blink is an incredibly good spell if used right, even in ZvP. And even if the CD is higher, you'll still be able to save each of your stalkers at least one time via blink micro which is still huge. We'll see if it goes through, but I don't feel like it's that awful of a change (nothing like the 25 gas hydra anyway).
The mine change seems huge to me though, it would be a giant nerf to early chargelot archons plays. I'm afraid that adding buffs like that and the ghost change back to back they'll end up breaking the matchup as they did by adding protoss harass buffs back to back too..
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On February 11 2014 20:57 shin_toss wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2014 20:49 SC2Toastie wrote:On February 11 2014 20:46 shin_toss wrote:On February 11 2014 20:24 SC2Toastie wrote:On February 11 2014 20:22 shin_toss wrote:On February 11 2014 20:20 SC2Toastie wrote:On February 11 2014 20:17 shin_toss wrote:Lol if this is the only reason to shut the Z and T QQ'ers (that actually needs to l2p). I'm all for it Don't check the stats bro :O! because only the games of pro gamers matters? sure. What exactly are you arguing? You say David patches this just because Terran and Zerg players are qqing. I say you should take a look at the stats and see some change is warranted. Are you gonna tell me progamer statistics are not indicative of balance problems? im saying the number of progamers and games are very small compared to the rest of the sc2 population. Should we balance by bronze level standards then? Progames are the closest to perfection we can get, if you are going to argue that progames are not a good source for balance information I advise you to go to reddit or battlenet forums. sorry but not all players besides Progamers are bronze league. I get the MSC nerf but Seriously? Blink nerf and hydra buff (which is perfectly fine atm) at the same time? Even its just a test map its kinda ridiculous already. Stalker from a bad core unit to a potential trash unit .I won't even mention that blink plays require good timings and execution. Most z/t players complain about deathball, then collosus should be nerfed not stalkers -_- Lol feels like sc2 isn't a strategy game anymore, people complain more abt stuff that are perfectly fine, instead of finding a way.
The only thing I can pick up out of this is you being butthurt about losing your ladderpoints.
Protoss shows dominance at every level.
At levels below pro level, there's tons of other variables like execution that affect winrates.
Hydra isn't fine because it's underused and the lack of Zerg AA forces Swarmhost play.
Blink is not fine given how easy Blink all ins are, is the vision change enough, maybe. Nothing changes about stalkers in big engagements.
Collosi can't be nerfed because Protoss is badly designed.
Do you even understand what you are typing. Jeesz.
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I don't agree on making blink a 1 level cliff height spell. It will make chasing small mutalisk flocks at home impossible, allowing mutalisk flocks to grow even faster and do more damage.
I also don't like seeing the only microable protoss tool to get nerfed even though I hate blink all-ins. Wouldn't delaying the blink upgrade a minute help?
I don't agree on buffing the tempest, but I do agree with all other buffs/nerfs.
Swarm Hosts should be nerfed, as well as the mutalisk regen rate. One way to make mutalisks die less fast with the regen rate reverted is to allow queens to area heal, but ofcourse not too much and only after lair tech + an upgrade. This way flocks have to search for queens to get healed allowing the terrans and protosses the catch a breath for a moment. It will also help skyzerg survive a bit longer. In return the Swarm Host must be weakened, either reducing the locust spawn duration or their speed or making them energy based.
I just hate watching games where they mass up certain units.
Of course I can be wrong since I'm just a spectator.
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I'm going to love seeing a much more snipable MSC is that change goes through. It might be enough to challenge blink allins at my MMR in ladder.
Unsure about the blink change. Widow mine change huh? Maybe a boon for people that open mine drops. Tempest change IF and only IF they're right about EU style ZvP (I haven't even seen). I'll have to practice against friends to see if that hydra change is enough to make roach/hydra ZvT become a major player again. Otherwise I usually just play careful with bio tank and win.
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On February 11 2014 21:07 Djangoobie wrote:
I don't agree on making blink a 1 level cliff height spell. It will make chasing small mutalisk flocks at home impossible, allowing mutalisk flocks to grow even faster and do more damage.
I also don't like seeing the only microable protoss tool to get nerfed even though I hate blink all-ins. Wouldn't delaying the blink upgrade a minute help?
I don't agree on buffing the tempest, but I do agree with all other buffs/nerfs.
Swarm Hosts should be nerfed, as well as the mutalisk regen rate. One way to make mutalisks die less fast with the regen rate reverted is to allow queens to area heal, but ofcourse not too much and only after lair tech + an upgrade. This way flocks have to search for queens to get healed allowing the terrans and protosses the catch a breath for a moment. It will also help skyzerg survive a bit longer. In return the Swarm Host must be weakened, either reducing the locust spawn duration or their speed or making them energy based.
I just hate watching games where they mass up certain units.
Of course I can be wrong since I'm just a spectator.
The problem with nerfing muta and host is making Zerg midgame completely uncompetitive verse Protoss. That's why they buff the hydra. If Zerg is given a reliable option to stave off the Protoss, they can change other units.
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I think blink will still be good after this! You just have to be smarter about when you blink! (no joke)
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EPT
