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plogamer
Canada3132 Posts
On February 11 2014 12:27 seak99 wrote: + Show Spoiler + Ya, don't really see how + shields for widow mine will break anything in Tvp. One thing they should do for Terran is make the Hellions/Hell bats not auto group together now when you Ctl click one. Yes, please. I find it so irritating to have them grouped together on ctrl + click. | ||
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sagefreke
United States241 Posts
On February 11 2014 12:03 Cloak wrote: I'm willing to put money down that if Hydra gets that buff, and Stalkers get that nerf, Colossi will need to be buffed or at the very least become the dominant meta. Are people okay with that? The Hydra steamroll will hit before Storm and the only other way Protoss can adequately respond to that is with everybody's favorite. If Proxy Tempests is a thing, let that meta evolve before we squash it. Talk is cheap. Link paypal by PM if you're serious. The Hydra attack speed buff does more for ZvZ than it does for ZvP. Hydras will still melt to storms and collossus late game, which means ZvP will still turn into games of attrition thanks to SH and the fact that Zerg won't be able to trade evenly against Toss without free units. It moderately helps their AA which Zergs have been asking for months now. | ||
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Cloak
United States816 Posts
On February 11 2014 12:04 plogamer wrote: Right, like blink stalkers are used to hold hydra timings in the current patch. Nor will blink stalkers be used even if blink wasn't nerfed. They're not specifically designed to hold Hydra timings, but they are good follow-up and general slush for composition transition. | ||
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Dingobloo
Australia1903 Posts
On February 11 2014 12:27 seak99 wrote: Ya, don't really see how + shields for widow mine will break anything in Tvp. One thing they should do for Terran is make the Hellions/Hell bats not auto group together now when you Ctl click one. For the hellion/hellbat thing, it was like that up until the most recent patch, and they changed it intentionally who knows why. As for how it could break TvP, both sentries and high templar are 40/40 shields and health, we might see some hilarious games of whole groups of sentries or high templar being taken out by single mines for a while. | ||
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ArTiFaKs
United States1229 Posts
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Whitewing
United States7483 Posts
On February 11 2014 11:56 plogamer wrote: I don't think it makes stargate play that much stronger - when you watch games currently, it's usually one blink to chase off that pesky oracle. Or blinking back individual stalkers against voids (more often the case it's just one giant blink forward to snipe it if possible). It just means the Protoss has to disengage for 5 seconds more with blink stalkers on retreat against void rays before they can execute blink micro again. Same with phoenix, it's usually just one blink to chase them off. Phoenix and oracle are fast enough that currently blink isn't enough to chase them down. And, both Protoss have access to stargate! Phoenix kind of hard counter oracles (oracles being light armored and unable to shoot air). So while game meta might shift, balance should not be an issue given its a mirror match up. It makes stargate a better choice because it makes blink a weaker choice in general, and therefore less likely to be the initial build choice. The only build that has a build order advantage against stargate is blink. | ||
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plogamer
Canada3132 Posts
On February 11 2014 12:31 Dingobloo wrote: For the hellion/hellbat thing, it was like that up until the most recent patch, and they changed it intentionally who knows why. As for how it could break TvP, both sentries and high templar are 40/40 shields and health, we might see some hilarious games of whole groups of sentries or high templar being taken out by single mines for a while. I wouldn't call that "breaking" TvP. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland27464 Posts
On February 11 2014 12:31 Dingobloo wrote: For the hellion/hellbat thing, it was like that up until the most recent patch, and they changed it intentionally who knows why. As for how it could break TvP, both sentries and high templar are 40/40 shields and health, we might see some hilarious games of whole groups of sentries or high templar being taken out by single mines for a while. I don't see that as being too likely, given that having an obs with your army is pretty much obligatory in TvP, or at the very least it might take a few horror shows to hafe those who aren't doing this, start doing this  ZvP Hydra timings will stagnate the matchup if that goes through imo. I'm not usually wrong for some reason, despite sucking at the game. I don't see how you'll be able to hold those 3 base Roach/Hydra/Ling timings without rushing out a few Collosi, which is pretty much WoL turtling PvZ all over again. | ||
BisuDagger
Bisutopia19394 Posts
On February 11 2014 11:59 plogamer wrote: Blink will remain spectacular for audiences still because it's always been the micro itself that was amazing to watch. There's an added 5 second delay after that amazing spectacle - but that would not be noticable to spectators at all. If armies get run over more easily because blink isn't an option for another 5 seconds then it looks pretty dumb too. 5 seconds is huge. | ||
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plogamer
Canada3132 Posts
On February 11 2014 12:34 Whitewing wrote: It makes stargate a better choice because it makes blink a weaker choice in general, and therefore less likely to be the initial build choice. The only build that has a build order advantage against stargate is blink. "Weaker choice in general" is really vague. I pointed out why blink isn't a weaker choice by comparing the proposed nerf against blink's current interaction with each of the Protoss stargate unit. | ||
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Cloak
United States816 Posts
On February 11 2014 12:30 sagefreke wrote: Talk is cheap. Link paypal by PM if you're serious. The Hydra attack speed buff does more for ZvZ than it does for ZvP. Hydras will still melt to storms and collossus late game, which means ZvP will still turn into games of attrition thanks to SH and the fact that Zerg won't be able to trade evenly against Toss without free units. It moderately helps their AA which Zergs have been asking for months now. Fair enough, PMd. It will likely be moot because both conditions must be met. Blink nerf already has too much pushback; will get attenuated. | ||
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plogamer
Canada3132 Posts
On February 11 2014 12:38 BisuDagger wrote: If armies get run over more easily because blink isn't an option for another 5 seconds then it looks pretty dumb too. 5 seconds is huge. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vWbCBKa8bOM So you cherry pick a vod of a random 4v4(?) game where the Protoss players do nothing but blink micro. 5 seconds is huge, yes, it makes blinking to enemy bases a much heavier commitment. But again, pure stalker armies are not the norm except in TvP all-ins - and I don't know if most people find that kind of play exciting. Armies getting run over more easily because of the extra 5 cooldown on blink? That's just hyperbole. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland27464 Posts
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AnonymousSC2
United States189 Posts
"We currently feel this would be a helpful change, but we’re worried that a vision radius decrease doesn’t really nerf the highest end Protoss players who are positioning the Mothership Core perfectly already. We’ll talk to professional Protoss players about this one once the test map goes live." There's so much stupidity in this statement. The 14 vision radius is OP because it takes no positioning or difficulty to get the effect. They can see way further than their opponents without any risk to the mothership core. Why ask PROTOSS players? No one wants their race nerfed.. | ||
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BisuDagger
Bisutopia19394 Posts
On February 11 2014 12:46 plogamer wrote: So you cherry pick a vod of a random 4v4(?) game where the Protoss players do nothing but blink micro. 5 seconds is huge, yes, it makes blinking to enemy bases a much heavier commitment. But again, pure stalker armies are not the norm except in TvP all-ins - and I don't know if most people find that kind of play exciting. Armies getting run over more easily because of the extra 5 cooldown on blink? That's just hyperbole. It is not a hyperbole. In SC2 battles happen very quickly, units die much faster, and damage output is great. Blinking away from a speedling attack only to have them catch up and have to wait a whole 5 seconds extra taking hits before blinking back again is not an exaggeration. I am by no means trying to convince you to see it my way. I am just stating how I'm going to view it as someone who has been spectating starcraft for nearly a decade. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland27464 Posts
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Dingobloo
Australia1903 Posts
On February 11 2014 12:53 AnonymousSC2 wrote: Mothership Core vision radius decreased from 14 to 9 "We currently feel this would be a helpful change, but we’re worried that a vision radius decrease doesn’t really nerf the highest end Protoss players who are positioning the Mothership Core perfectly already. We’ll talk to professional Protoss players about this one once the test map goes live." There's so much stupidity in this statement. The 14 vision radius is OP because it takes no positioning or difficulty to get the effect. They can see way further than their opponents without any risk to the mothership core. Why ask PROTOSS players? No one wants their race nerfed.. I think you've read this the wrong way around, they're saying that this might not have the impact it needs to because the kinds of players that are good at positioning their mothership cores are going to keep it from dying with 14 or 9 range regardless so it might not effect blink all ins as much as people think, this is why they have the extra blink nerf in there. | ||
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KrazyTrumpet
United States2520 Posts
On February 11 2014 11:59 mostevil wrote: I think most people tune out for PvP. It's a hard matchup to love. I don't get that =/ It's the most varied matchup, lots of viable openers, and lately there have been a lot less build order auto wins as players adjust and account for new strats. You have everything from proxy rushes to crazy blink stalker battles to stargate openers to late game colossus/archon/tempest battles to 5 minute games to 30 minute games. PvP is easily my favorite matchup now, we have come a VERY long way from the "4gate or die" days. | ||
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plogamer
Canada3132 Posts
On February 11 2014 12:53 BisuDagger wrote: It is not a hyperbole. In SC2 battles happen very quickly, units die much faster, and damage output is great. Blinking away from a speedling attack only to have them catch up and have to wait a whole 5 seconds extra taking hits before blinking back again is not an exaggeration. I am by no means trying to convince you to see it my way. I am just stating how I'm going to view it as someone who has been spectating starcraft for nearly a decade. As someone who has been spectating games with blink stalkers for as long as they have existed, speedlings wreck blinkstalkers regardless of 5 seconds. Protoss have tools in their arsenal to deal with speedlings that do not require 100% cooldown usage on blink stalkers. And that's why it's hyperbole to say it will ruin blink play for spectators. Protoss reaction to speedlings is either zealots, or aoe. Neither am I trying to convince only you, per say, but presenting counter arguments to your stance on this public forum for the consideration of our fellow posters and readers. | ||
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KrazyTrumpet
United States2520 Posts
On February 11 2014 12:24 Clbull wrote: I like the Widow Mine change. They will be so much more effective versus Zealots, Immortals and Archons which at the moment wreck Mech armies. It will mean that Tier 3 deathballs will have to think twice about engaging a minefield reinforced by tanks through just a simple a-move. Instead, they'll have to move Stalkers and an Observer in, take a few volleys to whittle down their Stalker count and eliminate the minefield before moving the rest of their army in. Or just use obs/envision and Colossus. In the late game widow mines will obviously start to lose their effectiveness, but early and mid game, they should be serving the same role spider mines used to serve in BW, which is slowing the opponent down and buying Terran time. | ||
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