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Bisutopia19300 Posts
eSF really helped SC a lot when it need it. Thanks to the organizers.
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On January 28 2014 23:39 Milkis wrote:
man thinking about it now i wonder what would have happened if blizzard didn't do all of this nonsense transition stuff and just let kespa teams run SC2 and BW teams separately
Well they had to sue to protect their copyright in Korea before selling SC2, since copyright law works similar to that in the US(from my understanding). I think that the rise of ESf and GOM put pressure on Kespa to reform some of their disliked practices and not be the only broadcaster on the block. Both Blizzard and Kespa seem to have come a long way since 2010.
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Since StarTale isn't in Proleague, Life will just have to win every GSL this year to keep up the exposure. It's k, npnp.
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On January 28 2014 23:35 Kheve wrote:Show nested quote +On January 28 2014 23:11 Crytash wrote:On January 28 2014 23:01 Kheve wrote:On January 28 2014 22:39 Plansix wrote:On January 28 2014 22:24 Ammanas wrote:On January 28 2014 21:18 opterown wrote:On January 28 2014 20:56 Kheve wrote:
Finally this arrogant fake organization bites the dust. Their only act in their existence was to bully Slayers just to show that they are a real organization. No rules no tournament no nothing, just gang up to bully someone. All stick and no carrot. Bleh now finally sc2 have a chance (tiny one) in korea. don't be an idiot, they saved sc2 by manfighting kespa over the GSL boycotting issue On January 28 2014 20:22 Ammanas wrote:On January 28 2014 20:17 JustPassingBy wrote:On January 28 2014 19:53 Ammanas wrote:On January 28 2014 18:47 RoninKenshin wrote:
I don't think it's a bad thing, but people really aren't giving esf any credit. They were the ones that put Starcraft 2 first, while Kespa refused to join out of stubbornness and spite. Then while esf put out open arms when kespa switched over, kespa instead refused to cooperate and demanded control, slowly killing the scene. Esf and gom have only tried to make SC2 great, and laid the foundation for what it is today.
While their power was small, I think esf was a great orgnization with heart. Thanks for your hard work esf!! lol no, they didn't join because Blizzard gave GOM exclusive rights... Eh, you make it sound as if Blizzard gave GOM exclusive rights after KespA transitioned to sc2, is that really right? :o Such a long time ago, and my memory isn't the best... nah, they gave GOM exclusive rights before SC2 was released, meaning Kespa was unable to switch as their partners at the time were OnGameNet and MBC Game. That was all done because Blizzard asked Kespa to give them money for BW tournaments when they realized it existed about a year or two before SC2 was released. Obviously Kespa didn't want to as they were the ones who nurtured the BW scene from the ground. They sued Kespa afaik (was eventually solved outside of court) and gave GOM the exclusive rights in order to manipulate Kespa out of SC2 scene. Basically a Blizzard power struggle with Kespa is to be blamed for SC2 not being as big as it could/should in Korea. or you could see it as a kespa power struggle for not paying dues *shrug Problem is, Kespa doesn't have money. They are non-profit organization sanctioned by government, everything they earn goes straight back to esport scene. What more, Kespa tournaments are for sure not profitable for them nowadays, they are only running on sponsorships. And I believe that was also most probably true in BW. Also, Blizzard didn't have ANY rights for any money from Korean BW scene. Even if Kespa would be turning billions of profit, it was them who made the BW esports. Yes, Blizzard made the game, but other than that nothing. They were not at all interested in that scene even, until SC2 development started. It's like if some heir to the guy who 'invented' tennis was asking for money from ATP or football/FIFA or golf/PGA or any other comparison you want to think about. In the end, I want to speculate - after the matchfixing scandal, I believe nobody would be happier more than Kespa to switch to SC2 asap. But Blizzard tried to push them into corner and they unfortunately couldn't. So yes, I blame Blizzard for eSF existing in the first place and what's worse I blame them for the state of SC2 in Korea right now even though now they are doing their best to save anything that's left. I wonder if it will be enough though. Kespa doesn't have money? Lol? You do know that all the oil companies I the would could form a non-profit and as long as they don't make a profit at the end of the year they still qualify. Even if they are loaded. Ahh thats because of the corporate practices in the west. In the west accounting practise generally allows u to cook the books as long as u are not caught. Enron and such were exceptions because they sucks at cheating otherwise its fine. Thats western culture. And its accepted evidenced by the huge amount of Ponzis like Madoff. So long as you;re not caught, its the right thing to do. Rules and regulations tend to be frowned on because it infringes on free market (suckers will be suckered). Even the banking crisis was not sufficient impetus for federal oversight. In the Korea sadly such things are frowned upon, whistleblowing will happen and ppl will go to jail. In china corporate malpractice can even earn a bullet (And stay of executions are usually for mere months instead of years). Furthermore Kespa is not owned by anyone thus every stakeholder have equal rights (though some are more equal). The current Kespa president is a congressman. Plenty of of willing whistleblower who would love a scandal if there were even any hanky panky they are supposed to be involved in. Is this a troll? Bribing has a huge history in China, i would argue that there is "cheating" in every country of the world and let us not talk about Korea, i just have to say Lee Kun-hee! 130 million $ in slush funds was it, right? Organised crime is always a problem. In every country - to claim other wise is gullible. No one said china is a paradise -_-. Its the consequence and social acceptability. Bribing is called lobbying in the west and the bribes are called gifts. Its legal in the west. Its illegal in china and 20 years ago, every few months we see some politician gets a bullet (China has the biggest civil service in the world due to its population). These days China are becoming more westernised and only gets jail. 20 years later maybe lobbying can be legal and gifts can even be publicly recorded and accepted. Accounting practices in china is very strict. lots of government restrictions and rules. Thats also why lots of big china company prefer to list in western markets. The western accounting practice is very open-minded and cheating (by asian confucian standards) is not frowned upon. That is the most important difference between Kespa and western companies. No one owns kespa. The organization is powerful but no one owns it but the esports scene itself. Its exactly like FIFA etc who have billions in revenue but all that money MUST be funneled back into the football. Sepp Blater might be very powerful but he is no way touching the billions of FIFA revenue. He might get a lot of gifts etc but he certainly cant use any of the FIFA revenues.
First of all, i did not say that it would be a paradise (that was the other poster), second to that there is still (legal) lobbying in China. Please stop posting false information. Guanxi is one of the most important things to understand when you are doing business in China and saying that lobbying is illigal, esp. soft lobbying like sharing studys of think tanks, etc. is afaik still huge.
Those gifts you are talking about still exist, just as bribes and is wide spread.
You want to talk to a german about rules/laws and obidience? Realy?
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France9034 Posts
Though I'm grateful for what they did sometimes (esp. wrt the GSL boycott), I think it's for the greater good that they disband. I hope that with the KeSPA changes that happened some time ago (which I seem to remember were quite good with less opportunities to fuck up the players and teams), this can lead to a better and more coherent scene.
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With more and more team leaving it seemed like only a matter of time. ESF did help out a lot in the early days of sc2 but not with out issues and controversy. Hopefully the few remaining teams will be able to join kespa.
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Expected, but still unfortunate seeing it being officially announced.
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Rest in peace. They did a fantastic job during their tenure
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I guess they kind of achieved their goal by getting kespa to change it's attitude towards the sc2 teams and players, so this is less a "failure" in my opinion. Still, we will have to wait and see if Kespa goes back to the bad old ways without any alternative structure for teams.
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On January 28 2014 23:59 Crytash wrote:Show nested quote +On January 28 2014 23:35 Kheve wrote:On January 28 2014 23:11 Crytash wrote:On January 28 2014 23:01 Kheve wrote:On January 28 2014 22:39 Plansix wrote:On January 28 2014 22:24 Ammanas wrote:On January 28 2014 21:18 opterown wrote:On January 28 2014 20:56 Kheve wrote:
Finally this arrogant fake organization bites the dust. Their only act in their existence was to bully Slayers just to show that they are a real organization. No rules no tournament no nothing, just gang up to bully someone. All stick and no carrot. Bleh now finally sc2 have a chance (tiny one) in korea. don't be an idiot, they saved sc2 by manfighting kespa over the GSL boycotting issue On January 28 2014 20:22 Ammanas wrote:On January 28 2014 20:17 JustPassingBy wrote:On January 28 2014 19:53 Ammanas wrote:
[quote]
lol no, they didn't join because Blizzard gave GOM exclusive rights... Eh, you make it sound as if Blizzard gave GOM exclusive rights after KespA transitioned to sc2, is that really right? :o Such a long time ago, and my memory isn't the best... nah, they gave GOM exclusive rights before SC2 was released, meaning Kespa was unable to switch as their partners at the time were OnGameNet and MBC Game. That was all done because Blizzard asked Kespa to give them money for BW tournaments when they realized it existed about a year or two before SC2 was released. Obviously Kespa didn't want to as they were the ones who nurtured the BW scene from the ground. They sued Kespa afaik (was eventually solved outside of court) and gave GOM the exclusive rights in order to manipulate Kespa out of SC2 scene. Basically a Blizzard power struggle with Kespa is to be blamed for SC2 not being as big as it could/should in Korea. or you could see it as a kespa power struggle for not paying dues *shrug Problem is, Kespa doesn't have money. They are non-profit organization sanctioned by government, everything they earn goes straight back to esport scene. What more, Kespa tournaments are for sure not profitable for them nowadays, they are only running on sponsorships. And I believe that was also most probably true in BW. Also, Blizzard didn't have ANY rights for any money from Korean BW scene. Even if Kespa would be turning billions of profit, it was them who made the BW esports. Yes, Blizzard made the game, but other than that nothing. They were not at all interested in that scene even, until SC2 development started. It's like if some heir to the guy who 'invented' tennis was asking for money from ATP or football/FIFA or golf/PGA or any other comparison you want to think about. In the end, I want to speculate - after the matchfixing scandal, I believe nobody would be happier more than Kespa to switch to SC2 asap. But Blizzard tried to push them into corner and they unfortunately couldn't. So yes, I blame Blizzard for eSF existing in the first place and what's worse I blame them for the state of SC2 in Korea right now even though now they are doing their best to save anything that's left. I wonder if it will be enough though. Kespa doesn't have money? Lol? You do know that all the oil companies I the would could form a non-profit and as long as they don't make a profit at the end of the year they still qualify. Even if they are loaded. Ahh thats because of the corporate practices in the west. In the west accounting practise generally allows u to cook the books as long as u are not caught. Enron and such were exceptions because they sucks at cheating otherwise its fine. Thats western culture. And its accepted evidenced by the huge amount of Ponzis like Madoff. So long as you;re not caught, its the right thing to do. Rules and regulations tend to be frowned on because it infringes on free market (suckers will be suckered). Even the banking crisis was not sufficient impetus for federal oversight. In the Korea sadly such things are frowned upon, whistleblowing will happen and ppl will go to jail. In china corporate malpractice can even earn a bullet (And stay of executions are usually for mere months instead of years). Furthermore Kespa is not owned by anyone thus every stakeholder have equal rights (though some are more equal). The current Kespa president is a congressman. Plenty of of willing whistleblower who would love a scandal if there were even any hanky panky they are supposed to be involved in. Is this a troll? Bribing has a huge history in China, i would argue that there is "cheating" in every country of the world and let us not talk about Korea, i just have to say Lee Kun-hee! 130 million $ in slush funds was it, right? Organised crime is always a problem. In every country - to claim other wise is gullible. No one said china is a paradise -_-. Its the consequence and social acceptability. Bribing is called lobbying in the west and the bribes are called gifts. Its legal in the west. Its illegal in china and 20 years ago, every few months we see some politician gets a bullet (China has the biggest civil service in the world due to its population). These days China are becoming more westernised and only gets jail. 20 years later maybe lobbying can be legal and gifts can even be publicly recorded and accepted. Accounting practices in china is very strict. lots of government restrictions and rules. Thats also why lots of big china company prefer to list in western markets. The western accounting practice is very open-minded and cheating (by asian confucian standards) is not frowned upon. That is the most important difference between Kespa and western companies. No one owns kespa. The organization is powerful but no one owns it but the esports scene itself. Its exactly like FIFA etc who have billions in revenue but all that money MUST be funneled back into the football. Sepp Blater might be very powerful but he is no way touching the billions of FIFA revenue. He might get a lot of gifts etc but he certainly cant use any of the FIFA revenues. First of all, i did not say that it would be a paradise (that was the other poster), second to that there is still (legal) lobbying in China. Please stop posting false information. Guanxi is one of the most important things to understand when you are doing business in China and saying that lobbying is illigal, esp. soft lobbying like sharing studys of think tanks, etc. is afaik still huge. Those gifts you are talking about still exist, just as bribes and is wide spread. You want to talk to a german about rules/laws and obidience? Realy?
Guanxi merely means 'relationship'. It exist everywhere. Foreigners who make it in china likes to make it like a unique science when its just relationship. Dick Cheney is a stakeholder in an oil company which got projects in iraq. These things happen everywhere. However in china, the moment personal gain can be found, it is corruption regardless of whether you sincerely like that guys proposal and thus accepted it. Thus the rules for guanxi is a lot stricter than western 'relationship'.
In Example, there was a business selling liquor and alcohol in china. The cheapest cigarette was 100,000 RMB which is about 16-17k USD. The business had a 99% refund policy no questions asked. Liquors lists for above 1million RMB per case. This was a very very successful business for about 2+ years. Everything was legal about it the accounts are impeccably transparent. It has its own brand for all its items. It started in south china (cant remember which province though its prolly guangdong) and expanded to 3 branches.Yet this was finally closed down using a money-laundering law. the reason? Coz it was used mainly by ppl who presents gifts thus its bribery by chinese standards. It is perfectly legal mind you, the owner was finally released with no charge since he maintained he does not know any of his customers personally and had no idea of their doings. But the business was shut down by the government. It goes to show that in china you cant get away with merely being legal, you have to be right too. Even funnier example, one 4rd generation retired politburo son crashed a ferrari (the son is 40+ years old btw) recently. No crime took place. The retired politician immediately publicly disowns his son. Even the sign of wealth (even if u r not intentionally flaunting it) is not considered acceptable. That is how strict old chinese were.
Kespa in all its history never showed even a single financial irregularity. Blizzard was caught cheating time and time again (Counterstrike, commercial license etc etc) scamming its partners with creative accounting. The best part is, they even delayed payment after a court judgement was given.. Its normal in the west society dont make a hoohah out of it. In korea before the judgement is even handed down, ppl involved bow their head and apologize (hypocrite imo). But it goes to show wat society can/cannot accept in korea.
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Goodbye eSF! You served your purpose well while you were needed. Thanks for your contributions to changing the SC2 landscape
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On January 29 2014 00:35 Kheve wrote:Show nested quote +On January 28 2014 23:59 Crytash wrote:On January 28 2014 23:35 Kheve wrote:On January 28 2014 23:11 Crytash wrote:On January 28 2014 23:01 Kheve wrote:On January 28 2014 22:39 Plansix wrote:On January 28 2014 22:24 Ammanas wrote:On January 28 2014 21:18 opterown wrote:On January 28 2014 20:56 Kheve wrote:
Finally this arrogant fake organization bites the dust. Their only act in their existence was to bully Slayers just to show that they are a real organization. No rules no tournament no nothing, just gang up to bully someone. All stick and no carrot. Bleh now finally sc2 have a chance (tiny one) in korea. don't be an idiot, they saved sc2 by manfighting kespa over the GSL boycotting issue On January 28 2014 20:22 Ammanas wrote:On January 28 2014 20:17 JustPassingBy wrote:
[quote]
Eh, you make it sound as if Blizzard gave GOM exclusive rights after KespA transitioned to sc2, is that really right? :o
Such a long time ago, and my memory isn't the best... nah, they gave GOM exclusive rights before SC2 was released, meaning Kespa was unable to switch as their partners at the time were OnGameNet and MBC Game. That was all done because Blizzard asked Kespa to give them money for BW tournaments when they realized it existed about a year or two before SC2 was released. Obviously Kespa didn't want to as they were the ones who nurtured the BW scene from the ground. They sued Kespa afaik (was eventually solved outside of court) and gave GOM the exclusive rights in order to manipulate Kespa out of SC2 scene. Basically a Blizzard power struggle with Kespa is to be blamed for SC2 not being as big as it could/should in Korea. or you could see it as a kespa power struggle for not paying dues *shrug Problem is, Kespa doesn't have money. They are non-profit organization sanctioned by government, everything they earn goes straight back to esport scene. What more, Kespa tournaments are for sure not profitable for them nowadays, they are only running on sponsorships. And I believe that was also most probably true in BW. Also, Blizzard didn't have ANY rights for any money from Korean BW scene. Even if Kespa would be turning billions of profit, it was them who made the BW esports. Yes, Blizzard made the game, but other than that nothing. They were not at all interested in that scene even, until SC2 development started. It's like if some heir to the guy who 'invented' tennis was asking for money from ATP or football/FIFA or golf/PGA or any other comparison you want to think about. In the end, I want to speculate - after the matchfixing scandal, I believe nobody would be happier more than Kespa to switch to SC2 asap. But Blizzard tried to push them into corner and they unfortunately couldn't. So yes, I blame Blizzard for eSF existing in the first place and what's worse I blame them for the state of SC2 in Korea right now even though now they are doing their best to save anything that's left. I wonder if it will be enough though. Kespa doesn't have money? Lol? You do know that all the oil companies I the would could form a non-profit and as long as they don't make a profit at the end of the year they still qualify. Even if they are loaded. Ahh thats because of the corporate practices in the west. In the west accounting practise generally allows u to cook the books as long as u are not caught. Enron and such were exceptions because they sucks at cheating otherwise its fine. Thats western culture. And its accepted evidenced by the huge amount of Ponzis like Madoff. So long as you;re not caught, its the right thing to do. Rules and regulations tend to be frowned on because it infringes on free market (suckers will be suckered). Even the banking crisis was not sufficient impetus for federal oversight. In the Korea sadly such things are frowned upon, whistleblowing will happen and ppl will go to jail. In china corporate malpractice can even earn a bullet (And stay of executions are usually for mere months instead of years). Furthermore Kespa is not owned by anyone thus every stakeholder have equal rights (though some are more equal). The current Kespa president is a congressman. Plenty of of willing whistleblower who would love a scandal if there were even any hanky panky they are supposed to be involved in. Is this a troll? Bribing has a huge history in China, i would argue that there is "cheating" in every country of the world and let us not talk about Korea, i just have to say Lee Kun-hee! 130 million $ in slush funds was it, right? Organised crime is always a problem. In every country - to claim other wise is gullible. No one said china is a paradise -_-. Its the consequence and social acceptability. Bribing is called lobbying in the west and the bribes are called gifts. Its legal in the west. Its illegal in china and 20 years ago, every few months we see some politician gets a bullet (China has the biggest civil service in the world due to its population). These days China are becoming more westernised and only gets jail. 20 years later maybe lobbying can be legal and gifts can even be publicly recorded and accepted. Accounting practices in china is very strict. lots of government restrictions and rules. Thats also why lots of big china company prefer to list in western markets. The western accounting practice is very open-minded and cheating (by asian confucian standards) is not frowned upon. That is the most important difference between Kespa and western companies. No one owns kespa. The organization is powerful but no one owns it but the esports scene itself. Its exactly like FIFA etc who have billions in revenue but all that money MUST be funneled back into the football. Sepp Blater might be very powerful but he is no way touching the billions of FIFA revenue. He might get a lot of gifts etc but he certainly cant use any of the FIFA revenues. First of all, i did not say that it would be a paradise (that was the other poster), second to that there is still (legal) lobbying in China. Please stop posting false information. Guanxi is one of the most important things to understand when you are doing business in China and saying that lobbying is illigal, esp. soft lobbying like sharing studys of think tanks, etc. is afaik still huge. Those gifts you are talking about still exist, just as bribes and is wide spread. You want to talk to a german about rules/laws and obidience? Realy? Guanxi merely means 'relationship'. It exist everywhere. Foreigners who make it in china likes to make it like a unique science when its just relationship. Dick Cheney is a stakeholder in an oil company which got projects in iraq. These things happen everywhere. However in china, the moment personal gain can be found, it is corruption regardless of whether you sincerely like that guys proposal and thus accepted it. Thus the rules for guanxi is a lot stricter than western 'relationship'. In Example, there was a business selling liquor and alcohol in china. The cheapest cigarette was 100,000 RMB which is about 16-17k USD. The business had a 99% refund policy no questions asked. Liquors lists for above 1million RMB per case. This was a very very successful business for about 2+ years. Everything was legal about it the accounts are impeccably transparent. It has its own brand for all its items. It started in south china (cant remember which province though its prolly guangdong) and expanded to 3 branches.Yet this was finally closed down using a money-laundering law. the reason? Coz it was used mainly by ppl who presents gifts thus its bribery by chinese standards. It is perfectly legal mind you, the owner was finally released with no charge since he maintained he does not know any of his customers personally and had no idea of their doings. But the business was shut down by the government. It goes to show that in china you cant get away with merely being legal, you have to be right too. Even funnier example, one 4rd generation retired politburo son crashed a ferrari (the son is 40+ years old btw) recently. No crime took place. The retired politician immediately publicly disowns his son. Even the sign of wealth (even if u r not intentionally flaunting it) is not considered acceptable. That is how strict old chinese were. Kespa in all its history never showed even a single financial irregularity. Blizzard was caught cheating time and time again (Counterstrike, commercial license etc etc) scamming its partners with creative accounting. The best part is, they even delayed payment after a court judgement was given.. Its normal in the west society dont make a hoohah out of it. In korea before the judgement is even handed down, ppl involved bow their head and apologize (hypocrite imo). But it goes to show wat society can/cannot accept in korea.
My god, these are the most trolly posts I have seen in a while. The whole argument boils down to "Asian culture is magic and prevents corruption. Because of this, Kespa has been and always will be great. Blizzard isn't because it suffers the burden of Wester culture."
Seriously, take this nonsense someplace else.
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Kheve writes some pretty decent arguments but it's quite clearly biased against everything about Blizzard and what they stand for, while everything Kespa does is unquestionably good.
On January 28 2014 23:58 VisonKai wrote:
Since StarTale isn't in Proleague, Life will just have to win every GSL this year to keep up the exposure. It's k, npnp.
yeah just realized the implications for ST if they don't join PL....imagining startale fading into some background team that I vaguely remember existing, but don't know who the players are. Life had better keep things up
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Sad for esf, but really, there is nothing left that they could've achieved. In the end we all knew that only one of the two organizations would survive, and it turns out that Kespa was the one.
On January 29 2014 00:45 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On January 29 2014 00:35 Kheve wrote:On January 28 2014 23:59 Crytash wrote:On January 28 2014 23:35 Kheve wrote:On January 28 2014 23:11 Crytash wrote:On January 28 2014 23:01 Kheve wrote:On January 28 2014 22:39 Plansix wrote:On January 28 2014 22:24 Ammanas wrote:On January 28 2014 21:18 opterown wrote:On January 28 2014 20:56 Kheve wrote:
Finally this arrogant fake organization bites the dust. Their only act in their existence was to bully Slayers just to show that they are a real organization. No rules no tournament no nothing, just gang up to bully someone. All stick and no carrot. Bleh now finally sc2 have a chance (tiny one) in korea. don't be an idiot, they saved sc2 by manfighting kespa over the GSL boycotting issue On January 28 2014 20:22 Ammanas wrote:
[quote]
nah, they gave GOM exclusive rights before SC2 was released, meaning Kespa was unable to switch as their partners at the time were OnGameNet and MBC Game. That was all done because Blizzard asked Kespa to give them money for BW tournaments when they realized it existed about a year or two before SC2 was released. Obviously Kespa didn't want to as they were the ones who nurtured the BW scene from the ground. They sued Kespa afaik (was eventually solved outside of court) and gave GOM the exclusive rights in order to manipulate Kespa out of SC2 scene. Basically a Blizzard power struggle with Kespa is to be blamed for SC2 not being as big as it could/should in Korea. or you could see it as a kespa power struggle for not paying dues *shrug Problem is, Kespa doesn't have money. They are non-profit organization sanctioned by government, everything they earn goes straight back to esport scene. What more, Kespa tournaments are for sure not profitable for them nowadays, they are only running on sponsorships. And I believe that was also most probably true in BW. Also, Blizzard didn't have ANY rights for any money from Korean BW scene. Even if Kespa would be turning billions of profit, it was them who made the BW esports. Yes, Blizzard made the game, but other than that nothing. They were not at all interested in that scene even, until SC2 development started. It's like if some heir to the guy who 'invented' tennis was asking for money from ATP or football/FIFA or golf/PGA or any other comparison you want to think about. In the end, I want to speculate - after the matchfixing scandal, I believe nobody would be happier more than Kespa to switch to SC2 asap. But Blizzard tried to push them into corner and they unfortunately couldn't. So yes, I blame Blizzard for eSF existing in the first place and what's worse I blame them for the state of SC2 in Korea right now even though now they are doing their best to save anything that's left. I wonder if it will be enough though. Kespa doesn't have money? Lol? You do know that all the oil companies I the would could form a non-profit and as long as they don't make a profit at the end of the year they still qualify. Even if they are loaded. Ahh thats because of the corporate practices in the west. In the west accounting practise generally allows u to cook the books as long as u are not caught. Enron and such were exceptions because they sucks at cheating otherwise its fine. Thats western culture. And its accepted evidenced by the huge amount of Ponzis like Madoff. So long as you;re not caught, its the right thing to do. Rules and regulations tend to be frowned on because it infringes on free market (suckers will be suckered). Even the banking crisis was not sufficient impetus for federal oversight. In the Korea sadly such things are frowned upon, whistleblowing will happen and ppl will go to jail. In china corporate malpractice can even earn a bullet (And stay of executions are usually for mere months instead of years). Furthermore Kespa is not owned by anyone thus every stakeholder have equal rights (though some are more equal). The current Kespa president is a congressman. Plenty of of willing whistleblower who would love a scandal if there were even any hanky panky they are supposed to be involved in. Is this a troll? Bribing has a huge history in China, i would argue that there is "cheating" in every country of the world and let us not talk about Korea, i just have to say Lee Kun-hee! 130 million $ in slush funds was it, right? Organised crime is always a problem. In every country - to claim other wise is gullible. No one said china is a paradise -_-. Its the consequence and social acceptability. Bribing is called lobbying in the west and the bribes are called gifts. Its legal in the west. Its illegal in china and 20 years ago, every few months we see some politician gets a bullet (China has the biggest civil service in the world due to its population). These days China are becoming more westernised and only gets jail. 20 years later maybe lobbying can be legal and gifts can even be publicly recorded and accepted. Accounting practices in china is very strict. lots of government restrictions and rules. Thats also why lots of big china company prefer to list in western markets. The western accounting practice is very open-minded and cheating (by asian confucian standards) is not frowned upon. That is the most important difference between Kespa and western companies. No one owns kespa. The organization is powerful but no one owns it but the esports scene itself. Its exactly like FIFA etc who have billions in revenue but all that money MUST be funneled back into the football. Sepp Blater might be very powerful but he is no way touching the billions of FIFA revenue. He might get a lot of gifts etc but he certainly cant use any of the FIFA revenues. First of all, i did not say that it would be a paradise (that was the other poster), second to that there is still (legal) lobbying in China. Please stop posting false information. Guanxi is one of the most important things to understand when you are doing business in China and saying that lobbying is illigal, esp. soft lobbying like sharing studys of think tanks, etc. is afaik still huge. Those gifts you are talking about still exist, just as bribes and is wide spread. You want to talk to a german about rules/laws and obidience? Realy? Guanxi merely means 'relationship'. It exist everywhere. Foreigners who make it in china likes to make it like a unique science when its just relationship. Dick Cheney is a stakeholder in an oil company which got projects in iraq. These things happen everywhere. However in china, the moment personal gain can be found, it is corruption regardless of whether you sincerely like that guys proposal and thus accepted it. Thus the rules for guanxi is a lot stricter than western 'relationship'. In Example, there was a business selling liquor and alcohol in china. The cheapest cigarette was 100,000 RMB which is about 16-17k USD. The business had a 99% refund policy no questions asked. Liquors lists for above 1million RMB per case. This was a very very successful business for about 2+ years. Everything was legal about it the accounts are impeccably transparent. It has its own brand for all its items. It started in south china (cant remember which province though its prolly guangdong) and expanded to 3 branches.Yet this was finally closed down using a money-laundering law. the reason? Coz it was used mainly by ppl who presents gifts thus its bribery by chinese standards. It is perfectly legal mind you, the owner was finally released with no charge since he maintained he does not know any of his customers personally and had no idea of their doings. But the business was shut down by the government. It goes to show that in china you cant get away with merely being legal, you have to be right too. Even funnier example, one 4rd generation retired politburo son crashed a ferrari (the son is 40+ years old btw) recently. No crime took place. The retired politician immediately publicly disowns his son. Even the sign of wealth (even if u r not intentionally flaunting it) is not considered acceptable. That is how strict old chinese were. Kespa in all its history never showed even a single financial irregularity. Blizzard was caught cheating time and time again (Counterstrike, commercial license etc etc) scamming its partners with creative accounting. The best part is, they even delayed payment after a court judgement was given.. Its normal in the west society dont make a hoohah out of it. In korea before the judgement is even handed down, ppl involved bow their head and apologize (hypocrite imo). But it goes to show wat society can/cannot accept in korea. My god, these are the most trolly posts I have seen in a while. The whole argument boils down to "Asian culture is magic and prevents corruption. Because of this, Kespa has been and always will be great. Blizzard isn't because it suffers the burden of Wester culture." Seriously, take this nonsense someplace else.
Hey, it's fun to read at least, they probably don't even notice how nationalistic they sound 
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Canada16217 Posts
On January 28 2014 18:05 JustPassingBy wrote:Show nested quote +On January 28 2014 15:57 lichter wrote:
But how will Azubu remind us that they are a real team now? Wait, are you sure Azubu was even part of the eSF?
they were apart of esf
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On January 29 2014 01:16 xAdra wrote:Kheve writes some pretty decent arguments but it's quite clearly biased against everything about Blizzard and what they stand for, while everything Kespa does is unquestionably good. Show nested quote +On January 28 2014 23:58 VisonKai wrote:
Since StarTale isn't in Proleague, Life will just have to win every GSL this year to keep up the exposure. It's k, npnp. yeah just realized the implications for ST if they don't join PL....imagining startale fading into some background team that I vaguely remember existing, but don't know who the players are. Life had better keep things up
Thats because the news of blizzard suing BW tournaments shocked me to hell. Up to that point I was sympathetic to Blizzard trying to get into Korean Esports. After that, everything blizzard has been saying up to that point has been dispelled as fake. Blizzards official reasoning of why they sue BW? Because BW is competing with SC2. What happened to wanting to promote esports better in korea?
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One league to rule them all.
KeSPA master race.
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On January 29 2014 01:30 Kheve wrote:Show nested quote +On January 29 2014 01:16 xAdra wrote:Kheve writes some pretty decent arguments but it's quite clearly biased against everything about Blizzard and what they stand for, while everything Kespa does is unquestionably good. On January 28 2014 23:58 VisonKai wrote:
Since StarTale isn't in Proleague, Life will just have to win every GSL this year to keep up the exposure. It's k, npnp. yeah just realized the implications for ST if they don't join PL....imagining startale fading into some background team that I vaguely remember existing, but don't know who the players are. Life had better keep things up Thats because the news of blizzard suing BW tournaments shocked me to hell. Up to that point I was sympathetic to Blizzard trying to get into Korean Esports. After that, everything blizzard has been saying up to that point has been dispelled as fake. Blizzards official reasoning of why they sue BW? Because BW is competing with SC2. What happened to wanting to promote esports better in korea?
It has nothing to do with BW competing with SC2. It was about protecting their trademarks and copyrights to the story, art, characters and world of SC2. Copyright and trademark laws require the the holder defend their copyrights and trademarks to keep them. Blizzard had to go to court to confirm that they held the rights to all of SC2, or they risked losing it.
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On January 29 2014 01:39 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On January 29 2014 01:30 Kheve wrote:On January 29 2014 01:16 xAdra wrote:Kheve writes some pretty decent arguments but it's quite clearly biased against everything about Blizzard and what they stand for, while everything Kespa does is unquestionably good. On January 28 2014 23:58 VisonKai wrote:
Since StarTale isn't in Proleague, Life will just have to win every GSL this year to keep up the exposure. It's k, npnp. yeah just realized the implications for ST if they don't join PL....imagining startale fading into some background team that I vaguely remember existing, but don't know who the players are. Life had better keep things up Thats because the news of blizzard suing BW tournaments shocked me to hell. Up to that point I was sympathetic to Blizzard trying to get into Korean Esports. After that, everything blizzard has been saying up to that point has been dispelled as fake. Blizzards official reasoning of why they sue BW? Because BW is competing with SC2. What happened to wanting to promote esports better in korea? It has nothing to do with BW competing with SC2. It was about protecting their trademarks and copyrights to the story, art, characters and world of SC2. Copyright and trademark laws require the the holder defend their copyrights and trademarks to keep them. Blizzard had to go to court to confirm that they held the rights to all of SC2, or they risked losing it.
Thats wrong. Blizzard suit was about BW tournaments being detrimental to SC2 thus seeks damages and injunction against holding BW tournaments.
The suit was seeking an injunction to stop the BW tournaments. And damages due to detriment to SC2. NOT a declaration of copyright and trademarks (It was never disputed by Kespa). The law of copyright and trademarks quite clear cut. A person who buys a BMW and then subsequently rents it out for a particular advert requiring a luxurious car is entitled to the fee. BMW have no rights on the fee received. Copyright and trademark violations is when they replicate your product/ claim to be your product/ claim to be you/ thats when copyright and trademarks damages come into play.
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Looks like no ones cares about the players here.
eSF was the firewall against the old Kespa ways, who is now the only and dominant organization.
They can do whatever they want now and there is zero guarantee it will be better for the players.
I'm actually a little worried for them...
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EPT
