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Full Statement from the eSports Federation:
"Hello esports fans.
The eSports Federation was founded in March of 2012 to help protect the rights and interests of StarCraft 2 teams and progamers. Through cooperation with our chairman company in GomTV, we sponsored the GSTL, planned online preliminaries for foreign tournaments like MLG and IPL, and tried to create Dota2 teams to diversify eSports disciplines.
However, with the industry going through rough times recently, and because teams could not solve their financial problems, it came to a situation where many teams disbanded. Additionally, it has come to be that the GSTL cannot be held anymore.
The eSF has put the rights and interests of the players first, and is working on getting the players signed to KeSPA and international teams. Also, we are cooperating with KeSPA so that players can attend educational seminars etc. so eSF players can receive KeSPA progamer licenses.
We would like to thank GOM eXP's Mr. Kwak Jong Wook who gave the federation so much help, and send out a heartfelt thank you to the eSF teams, staff, and players. Also, we want to thank the developers, media, and members of the community.
The eSF is disbanding as of January 28th.
We apologize for being unable to live up to the expectations of the fans, and we thank all of you for giving us your endless love and support."
eSF disbanding does not mean Startale or Azubu are disbanding.
The e-Sports federation was founded on 03/30/12. More information on it can be found: >here
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probably not much. what do they even do at this point.
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actually, I only care about life getting a good team.
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I thought this was a given with all those old ESF teams swapping to KeSPA (MVP, IM, Prime)... A less fractured scene is a better one i think
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hmmm startale in PL? that the best we can hope for i guess o and axiom in there
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opterown
Australia54643 Posts
only inevitable I guess, they did what they had to when they were around, and kespa is a bit less anal these days so it's ok
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Korea (South)11232 Posts
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United Kingdom31934 Posts
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All I want is for Life to join a proleague team
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They should've done this 3 months ago so ST got to join PL.
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Fiddler's Green42661 Posts
It says ESF to disband. Why are you guys assuming Life is leaving ST?
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Was inevitable. Startale by itself doesn't really warrant an "E-sports Federation." Think of it as a natural transition rather than a sad ending.
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I hope StarTale will not disband and join SPL. It would be nice if they could join Round 2 but the schedule and other other thigs are already prepared so it is almost impossible to happen
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I wonder if ST will give in and join Kespa
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1001 YEARS KESPAJAIL22271 Posts
But how will Azubu remind us that they are a real team now?
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What teams are left in eSF?
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United States11390 Posts
On January 28 2014 15:55 iLoveKT wrote: They should've done this 3 months ago so ST got to join PL. They didnt join PL because their manager (or was it former?) hates kespa. He was or is the head of eSF.
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Good thing, imo. Scene shouldn't be fractured, Korea is too small. KeSPA doesn't seem to be the tyrannical organization of old, either.
In the end, I don't think it matters who belongs to what organization, the more important question is "Are there enough tournaments?"
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On January 28 2014 15:57 lichter wrote: But how will Azubu remind us that they are a real team now?
Supernova winning Code S should do it
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Kind of expected, they only have Claufzubu and Startale left. I wonder if both will join Kespa or remain independent.
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Great news. A players union was a good idea but eSF and its amateurish operation has caused way more scandals & harm to the scene other than its initial purpose.
Whats so good about this thing going kaputt is that GOM could finally bury the hatchet and figure out something else with KeSPA
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I know we all saw it coming and everything, but I'm gonna be so nostalgic over staying up till 2 a.m and watching the GSL someday.. I think I already am
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On January 28 2014 16:13 Wafflelisk wrote:I know we all saw it coming and everything, but I'm gonna be so nostalgic over staying up till 2 a.m and watching the GSL someday.. I think I already am
You can always stay up till 2 am to watch proleague, which is still good.
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On January 28 2014 16:13 Wafflelisk wrote:I know we all saw it coming and everything, but I'm gonna be so nostalgic over staying up till 2 a.m and watching the GSL someday.. I think I already am
Uh, dude, just cause esf died doesn't mean GSL is dead?_?
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Saw it from a mile away, but still kinda sad Just hope all the teams and players find a good place
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Were Axiom-Acer affiliated with eSF or just participating in GSTL?
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opterown
Australia54643 Posts
On January 28 2014 16:19 ivancype wrote: Were Axiom-Acer affiliated with eSF or just participating in GSTL? just GSTL
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On January 28 2014 16:17 GTPGlitch wrote:Show nested quote +On January 28 2014 16:13 Wafflelisk wrote:I know we all saw it coming and everything, but I'm gonna be so nostalgic over staying up till 2 a.m and watching the GSL someday.. I think I already am Uh, dude, just cause esf died doesn't mean GSL is dead?_?
Yes, just to clarify: eSF is run by the team managers and organizers of non-kespa teams. GSL is run by GOMTV which is completely independent. This means, more than likely, the ultimate end to GSTL as there is proleague. However, qualifiers for WCS are run through GOMTV (Code A/S) so they will stuff have a lot of content to provide on that front.
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On January 28 2014 16:25 -Kyo- wrote:Show nested quote +On January 28 2014 16:17 GTPGlitch wrote:On January 28 2014 16:13 Wafflelisk wrote:I know we all saw it coming and everything, but I'm gonna be so nostalgic over staying up till 2 a.m and watching the GSL someday.. I think I already am Uh, dude, just cause esf died doesn't mean GSL is dead?_? Yes, just to clarify: eSF is run by the team managers and organizers of non-kespa teams. GSL is run by GOMTV which is completely independent. This means, more than likely, the ultimate end to GSTL as there is proleague. However, qualifiers for WCS are run through GOMTV (Code A/S) so they will stuff have a lot of content to provide on that front. I can still see GSTL as a shorter special event kind of league during Proleague's off-season assuming GOM can negotiate a nice deal with KeSPA.
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On January 28 2014 16:28 Nerevar wrote:Show nested quote +On January 28 2014 16:25 -Kyo- wrote:On January 28 2014 16:17 GTPGlitch wrote:On January 28 2014 16:13 Wafflelisk wrote:I know we all saw it coming and everything, but I'm gonna be so nostalgic over staying up till 2 a.m and watching the GSL someday.. I think I already am Uh, dude, just cause esf died doesn't mean GSL is dead?_? Yes, just to clarify: eSF is run by the team managers and organizers of non-kespa teams. GSL is run by GOMTV which is completely independent. This means, more than likely, the ultimate end to GSTL as there is proleague. However, qualifiers for WCS are run through GOMTV (Code A/S) so they will stuff have a lot of content to provide on that front. I can still see GSTL as a shorter special event kind of league during Proleague's off-season assuming GOM can negotiate a nice deal with KeSPA.
I doubt the teams would mind either as it would give them more exposure which is always nice.
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Well, there wasn't much left of it anyway. Was a good idea at the time, that wasn't executed well and ran it's course.
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even though I saw it coming, seeing the news is still quite heart breaking
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Hopefully this opens more options for Korea. I don't see this news as anything but a good thing.
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Seeker
Where dat snitch at?36621 Posts
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TLADT24917 Posts
Not really surprising. Most eSF teams moved to KeSPA, some closed down and there's like 2-3 left now? ST and Azubu come to mind, can't remember third lol
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I don't want to sound like an ass, but what did they actually DO?
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shit. Now we have to hope for blizzard to put all their influence behind GSLs survival, else Kespa will probably just turn it off the moment they find a date for a tournament of their own.
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Not unexpected. I hope Startale and AZUBU will survive that.
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On January 28 2014 15:52 opterown wrote: only inevitable I guess, they did what they had to when they were around, and kespa is a bit less anal these days so it's ok
Yeah spot on. They provided the right flex and pulled some great plays to get KeSPA into line at the start of the SC2 transition.
(That GSL Season 5/MLG shit was classic)
But ultimately their job is done.
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On January 28 2014 15:57 lichter wrote: But how will Azubu remind us that they are a real team now?
Wait, are you sure Azubu was even part of the eSF?
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wrong thread.
Sorry for you loss.
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Australia18228 Posts
They stopped KeSPA from killing GSL, but now with OGN gone and WCS security, not much reason for them to exist.
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so no more GSTL
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only real team left was st right ? i dont count azubu ^^
On January 28 2014 17:08 Shinta) wrote: Hopefully this opens more options for Korea. I don't see this news as anything but a good thing.
you my freind for sure dont know the kespa policy ...
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Sad to hear but pretty much expected.
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expected... i hope players/teams will find a new home :/
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Yeah.. I don't know. Inevitable I suppose, and I guess KeSPA doesn't seem like the monster it used to be. Still the end of an era. Bye GSTL.
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opterown
Australia54643 Posts
On January 28 2014 18:05 JustPassingBy wrote:Show nested quote +On January 28 2014 15:57 lichter wrote: But how will Azubu remind us that they are a real team now? Wait, are you sure Azubu was even part of the eSF? it was, dno about now
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The screams of "THIS. IS. E-SPOOOOORTS!" still echoes in my mind...
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On January 28 2014 18:08 shin_toss wrote: so no more GSTL
It was rumored to be dead awhile back.
I mean, even with how well GSTL still did the season after IM, MVP, and Prime left I didn't think it could last like it used to. The amount of team stability just wasn't there anymore.
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Well that was expected since all those teams left esf to kespa.
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you fulfilled your role esf, be proud
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On January 28 2014 15:56 DiMano wrote:I hope StarTale will not disband and join SPL. It would be nice if they could join Round 2 but the schedule and other other thigs are already prepared so it is almost impossible to happen
Couldn't they just participate alongside another Team (Probably an ex-eSF team) starting round 2? I mean... The rosters wiill be updated anyway, what would change if they just include the StarTale players as part of a cooperation between two teams. Of course I don't know if that's a good thing for StarTale, but it might be better than having absolutely no exposure in any Teamleague.
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WHAAAAAT ? No gsl ? seriously ? é_è sad pandas everywhere
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Nothing sad here, its just another stepping stone for the advancement of SC2 esports
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the esf prevented kespa from fucking gom in the ass at the beginning of the transition to sc2. so im sad to see them gone and kespa still around.
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opterown
Australia54643 Posts
On January 28 2014 18:35 Nyarly wrote: WHAAAAAT ? No gsl ? seriously ? é_è sad pandas everywhere eSF =/= GOM, there will still be GSL
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I don't think it's a bad thing, but people really aren't giving esf any credit. They were the ones that put Starcraft 2 first, while Kespa refused to join out of stubbornness and spite. Then while esf put out open arms when kespa switched over, kespa instead refused to cooperate and demanded control, slowly killing the scene. Esf and gom have only tried to make SC2 great, and laid the foundation for what it is today.
While their power was small, I think esf was a great orgnization with heart. Thanks for your hard work esf!!
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I dont think this is a bad thing either. eSF did very good work for the time being, I wonder however what will happen to Startale now? Will they automaticly disband because of this? I really hope to see Life participate in Proleague. But will it be under the wings of Startale?
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Lets just hope KesPA doesn't go full on with the power-plays again and going control mad and trying to stomp out the GSL now that eSF is out of the way. -_-
On January 28 2014 16:15 SetGuitarsToKill wrote:Show nested quote +On January 28 2014 16:13 Wafflelisk wrote:I know we all saw it coming and everything, but I'm gonna be so nostalgic over staying up till 2 a.m and watching the GSL someday.. I think I already am You can always stay up till 2 am to watch proleague, which is still good.
Not the same. Personally I really, really dislike the format for Proleague to the point that I just don't find it interesting to watch.
This confirmation that GSTL is basically completely dead is pretty devastating. No team league to watch anymore.
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On January 28 2014 17:33 Big J wrote: shit. Now we have to hope for blizzard to put all their influence behind GSLs survival, else Kespa will probably just turn it off the moment they find a date for a tournament of their own. Nvm
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does this mean no more GSL?
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I really really really don't get all this eSF vs KespA thing. I don't see why KespA teams don't participate in the GSTL, what do they have to lose? They have a lot of b-teamers that could gain booth experience and that would probably never see the booth from the inside in Proleague, especially after the format has shrunk to a bo5.
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On January 28 2014 19:02 JustPassingBy wrote: I really really really don't get all this eSF vs KespA thing. I don't see why KespA teams don't participate in the GSTL, what do they have to lose? They have a lot of b-teamers that could gain booth experience and that would probably never see the booth from the inside in Proleague, especially after the format has shrunk to a bo5. There is just no time really, they have to prepare for proleague and the individual tournaments already, no way another teamleague would be able to run at the same time
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does this mean azubu, startale, and other esf team will be joining kespa?
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This was for the best, lets hope the ex-eSF teams join KespA.
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Even though I've quit sc2, both in terms of playing and watching, I can't help but feel a pang of sadness seeing the news. We all saw it coming, but remember back then when eSF was first formed? It felt so cool having an organization protecting rights of the teams without being dictator-ish like KESPA. Remember the eSF vs Kespa rivalry, no matter how brief it was?
I will probably remember eSF for the good times. Feels like the disbanding is due to no major fault on their part- the industry just couldn't support having a scene with two major giants. Sad for eSF, sad for GSTL, sad for past memories. Hope everyone at eSF gets good jobs they love and eSF teams and players get good spots elsewhere, be it Kespa or not.
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On January 28 2014 19:03 The_Red_Viper wrote:Show nested quote +On January 28 2014 19:02 JustPassingBy wrote: I really really really don't get all this eSF vs KespA thing. I don't see why KespA teams don't participate in the GSTL, what do they have to lose? They have a lot of b-teamers that could gain booth experience and that would probably never see the booth from the inside in Proleague, especially after the format has shrunk to a bo5. There is just no time really, they have to prepare for proleague and the individual tournaments already, no way another teamleague would be able to run at the same time
I am referring to the players who do not participate in Proleague and individual tournaments because they are not good enough. In the past, trainers have - as far as i know - repeatedly justified sending out weaker players in Proleague by saying that they want to give them booth experience. And now they have the GSTL, which is a opportunity for the weaker players to gather the experience of playing under pressure that does not have the risk of ruin their Proleague result, and they do not use it! :o
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Honestly, to the general public it never seemed like eSF actually did anything. The only thing I've ever heard about eSF was that whole SlayerS drama.
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opterown
Australia54643 Posts
On January 28 2014 19:39 bokchoi wrote: Honestly, to the general public it never seemed like eSF actually did anything. The only thing I've ever heard about eSF was that whole SlayerS drama. that wasn't even really the esf lol - esf's main public action was to block kespa from muscling their way into sc2 by threatening to boycott OSL if kespa boycotted GSL, among other things
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On January 28 2014 19:39 bokchoi wrote: Honestly, to the general public it never seemed like eSF actually did anything. The only thing I've ever heard about eSF was that whole SlayerS drama. If I recall correctly eSF played a major role in softening the impact of KeSPa's transition to sc2 on the existing teams and players. They did this by representing the rights and interests of all the teams within, and could negotiate terms with KeSPA regarding anything related if need be. I'd imagine that without eSF KeSPA's transition would have been way more cataclysmic since they would have been able to get away with crap like boycotting GSL as opterown mentioned, as well as probably buying players from eSF teams straight off the bat.
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On January 28 2014 18:47 RoninKenshin wrote: I don't think it's a bad thing, but people really aren't giving esf any credit. They were the ones that put Starcraft 2 first, while Kespa refused to join out of stubbornness and spite. Then while esf put out open arms when kespa switched over, kespa instead refused to cooperate and demanded control, slowly killing the scene. Esf and gom have only tried to make SC2 great, and laid the foundation for what it is today.
While their power was small, I think esf was a great orgnization with heart. Thanks for your hard work esf!! lol no, they didn't join because Blizzard gave GOM exclusive rights...
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Will this affect GSL and GSTL in any way?
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On January 28 2014 19:53 Ammanas wrote:Show nested quote +On January 28 2014 18:47 RoninKenshin wrote: I don't think it's a bad thing, but people really aren't giving esf any credit. They were the ones that put Starcraft 2 first, while Kespa refused to join out of stubbornness and spite. Then while esf put out open arms when kespa switched over, kespa instead refused to cooperate and demanded control, slowly killing the scene. Esf and gom have only tried to make SC2 great, and laid the foundation for what it is today.
While their power was small, I think esf was a great orgnization with heart. Thanks for your hard work esf!! lol no, they didn't join because Blizzard gave GOM exclusive rights...
Eh, you make it sound as if Blizzard gave GOM exclusive rights after KespA transitioned to sc2, is that really right? :o I always thought that GOM still had the exclusive rights because of a previous deal. Such a long time ago, and my memory isn't the best...
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On January 28 2014 20:17 JustPassingBy wrote:Show nested quote +On January 28 2014 19:53 Ammanas wrote:On January 28 2014 18:47 RoninKenshin wrote: I don't think it's a bad thing, but people really aren't giving esf any credit. They were the ones that put Starcraft 2 first, while Kespa refused to join out of stubbornness and spite. Then while esf put out open arms when kespa switched over, kespa instead refused to cooperate and demanded control, slowly killing the scene. Esf and gom have only tried to make SC2 great, and laid the foundation for what it is today.
While their power was small, I think esf was a great orgnization with heart. Thanks for your hard work esf!! lol no, they didn't join because Blizzard gave GOM exclusive rights... Eh, you make it sound as if Blizzard gave GOM exclusive rights after KespA transitioned to sc2, is that really right? :o Such a long time ago, and my memory isn't the best... nah, they gave GOM exclusive rights before SC2 was released, meaning Kespa was unable to switch as their partners at the time were OnGameNet and MBC Game. That was all done because Blizzard asked Kespa to give them money for BW tournaments when they realized it existed about a year or two before SC2 was released. Obviously Kespa didn't want to as they were the ones who nurtured the BW scene from the ground. They sued Kespa afaik (was eventually solved outside of court) and gave GOM the exclusive rights in order to manipulate Kespa out of SC2 scene. Basically a Blizzard power struggle with Kespa is to be blamed for SC2 not being as big as it could/should in Korea.
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On January 28 2014 20:10 Big-t wrote: Will this affect GSL and GSTL in any way? Well GSTL has been basically confirmed as dead since there were only 2 teams in it this season.
GSL shouldn't be affected, but it might affect the last remaining eSF players.
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Well kinda sucks for ST/Azubu as they could have just joined PL if this would have happened earlier. Lets just pray that they'll manage to stay around long enough to participate in the 2015 PL.
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Finally this arrogant fake organization bites the dust. Their only act in their existence was to bully Slayers just to show that they are a real organization. No rules no tournament no nothing, just gang up to bully someone. All stick and no carrot. Bleh now finally sc2 have a chance (tiny one) in korea.
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opterown
Australia54643 Posts
On January 28 2014 20:56 Kheve wrote: Finally this arrogant fake organization bites the dust. Their only act in their existence was to bully Slayers just to show that they are a real organization. No rules no tournament no nothing, just gang up to bully someone. All stick and no carrot. Bleh now finally sc2 have a chance (tiny one) in korea. don't be an idiot, they saved sc2 by manfighting kespa over the GSL boycotting issue
On January 28 2014 20:22 Ammanas wrote:Show nested quote +On January 28 2014 20:17 JustPassingBy wrote:On January 28 2014 19:53 Ammanas wrote:On January 28 2014 18:47 RoninKenshin wrote: I don't think it's a bad thing, but people really aren't giving esf any credit. They were the ones that put Starcraft 2 first, while Kespa refused to join out of stubbornness and spite. Then while esf put out open arms when kespa switched over, kespa instead refused to cooperate and demanded control, slowly killing the scene. Esf and gom have only tried to make SC2 great, and laid the foundation for what it is today.
While their power was small, I think esf was a great orgnization with heart. Thanks for your hard work esf!! lol no, they didn't join because Blizzard gave GOM exclusive rights... Eh, you make it sound as if Blizzard gave GOM exclusive rights after KespA transitioned to sc2, is that really right? :o Such a long time ago, and my memory isn't the best... nah, they gave GOM exclusive rights before SC2 was released, meaning Kespa was unable to switch as their partners at the time were OnGameNet and MBC Game. That was all done because Blizzard asked Kespa to give them money for BW tournaments when they realized it existed about a year or two before SC2 was released. Obviously Kespa didn't want to as they were the ones who nurtured the BW scene from the ground. They sued Kespa afaik (was eventually solved outside of court) and gave GOM the exclusive rights in order to manipulate Kespa out of SC2 scene. Basically a Blizzard power struggle with Kespa is to be blamed for SC2 not being as big as it could/should in Korea. or you could see it as a kespa power struggle for not paying dues *shrug
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That's good news for me. Two esports federations always was bad for korean esports. I hope all teams and players can go to KeSPA and that this unity will strengthen the scene.
Hope that StarTale and Azubu can join KeSPA and ProLeague as soon as possible. Maybe even in season. 10 teams ProLeague again would be very nice.
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On January 28 2014 20:56 Kheve wrote: Finally this arrogant fake organization bites the dust. Their only act in their existence was to bully Slayers just to show that they are a real organization. No rules no tournament no nothing, just gang up to bully someone. All stick and no carrot. Bleh now finally sc2 have a chance (tiny one) in korea. Talk about ignorance
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Bad things happen sometimes, but it could not have been avoided.
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On January 28 2014 15:57 lichter wrote: But how will Azubu remind us that they are a real team now?
buy themself into ProLeague and win it all.
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This is a step in the right direction. It didn't make sense eSF and KesPA co-existing after the majority of eSF teams switched over.
Throughout SC2 teams have come and gone with extraordinary pace, and it has been unsustainable. Some of the Kespa teams are more stable because of the big telecommunications sponsors, and eventually it will probably only be the major sponsored teams left.
Players will have to dedicate themselves 100% to ensure they're picked up by a decent team.
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On January 28 2014 21:18 opterown wrote:Show nested quote +On January 28 2014 20:56 Kheve wrote: Finally this arrogant fake organization bites the dust. Their only act in their existence was to bully Slayers just to show that they are a real organization. No rules no tournament no nothing, just gang up to bully someone. All stick and no carrot. Bleh now finally sc2 have a chance (tiny one) in korea. don't be an idiot, they saved sc2 by manfighting kespa over the GSL boycotting issue Show nested quote +On January 28 2014 20:22 Ammanas wrote:On January 28 2014 20:17 JustPassingBy wrote:On January 28 2014 19:53 Ammanas wrote:On January 28 2014 18:47 RoninKenshin wrote: I don't think it's a bad thing, but people really aren't giving esf any credit. They were the ones that put Starcraft 2 first, while Kespa refused to join out of stubbornness and spite. Then while esf put out open arms when kespa switched over, kespa instead refused to cooperate and demanded control, slowly killing the scene. Esf and gom have only tried to make SC2 great, and laid the foundation for what it is today.
While their power was small, I think esf was a great orgnization with heart. Thanks for your hard work esf!! lol no, they didn't join because Blizzard gave GOM exclusive rights... Eh, you make it sound as if Blizzard gave GOM exclusive rights after KespA transitioned to sc2, is that really right? :o Such a long time ago, and my memory isn't the best... nah, they gave GOM exclusive rights before SC2 was released, meaning Kespa was unable to switch as their partners at the time were OnGameNet and MBC Game. That was all done because Blizzard asked Kespa to give them money for BW tournaments when they realized it existed about a year or two before SC2 was released. Obviously Kespa didn't want to as they were the ones who nurtured the BW scene from the ground. They sued Kespa afaik (was eventually solved outside of court) and gave GOM the exclusive rights in order to manipulate Kespa out of SC2 scene. Basically a Blizzard power struggle with Kespa is to be blamed for SC2 not being as big as it could/should in Korea. or you could see it as a kespa power struggle for not paying dues *shrug
Paying wat dues? U think kespa cant afford to pay? Or perhaps blizzard wanted the accounts of kespa even though kespa is a non-profit organizastion sanctioned by the korean government. All revenue generated by kespa MUST be funneled back into esports by law (team payouts, prizepool, holding tournaments awards etc) No matter how blizzard trys to spin it, no developer in the world ever sued someone for holding tournaments for their game. Blizzard was trying to take money from the korean esports scene. When that failed spectacularly with the korean public suddenly they changed their tune and say they want to support esports and start sponsoring prizemoney.
Blizzard reap wat they sow. Instead of a thriving game (at no costs) with free publicity and goodwill, now they have to spend their money just to keep the scene afloat not to mention the view that blizzard wants to own esports. No amount of spin on copyright ip rights can hide the fact that they want esports money to belong to them. Esports is and have always been for the gamers.
Compare it to Valves approach. Valve takes a % of in game tickets sold. They want it they are honest about it AND they ARE providing a service that provides a lot more dollars per viewer to esports. Thus its an EXTRA revenue stream for esports at no costs to the esports scene. Thus organisers know valve profit if esports profit. Thus its a beneficial partnership. Whether just good business model alone can fight lol is to be seen but one thing for sure, everyone is doing their best towards it and even if they cant beat lol, they can easily still survive as an indepedent ecosystem where everyone profits. The lastest revenue shows dota at 80 million compared to lol nearing 700 million. A % of that goes back to the scene which means easily 10-20 million extra for the scene at no cost to valve and the organisers. This number is projected to continue growing for at least 2-3 years. Valve generated that much extra revenue for esports directly and made money out of it.
Kespa is also investing in dota with nexons money because Kespa understands that if they profit, valve will profit a lot more thus wouldnt be greedy and want more. This is inspite of lol being so damned popular in korea that any sane man would not touch other games. This is because Kespa is for esports. No matter how bad the scene is, kespa must always be neutral and support all scenes. Someone mentioned that its actually lol who is subsidizing esports now which is very true especially in korea.
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not exactly impactful at this point
Hopefully startale will get to compete in other team leagues.
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On January 28 2014 21:18 opterown wrote:Show nested quote +On January 28 2014 20:56 Kheve wrote: Finally this arrogant fake organization bites the dust. Their only act in their existence was to bully Slayers just to show that they are a real organization. No rules no tournament no nothing, just gang up to bully someone. All stick and no carrot. Bleh now finally sc2 have a chance (tiny one) in korea. don't be an idiot, they saved sc2 by manfighting kespa over the GSL boycotting issue Show nested quote +On January 28 2014 20:22 Ammanas wrote:On January 28 2014 20:17 JustPassingBy wrote:On January 28 2014 19:53 Ammanas wrote:On January 28 2014 18:47 RoninKenshin wrote: I don't think it's a bad thing, but people really aren't giving esf any credit. They were the ones that put Starcraft 2 first, while Kespa refused to join out of stubbornness and spite. Then while esf put out open arms when kespa switched over, kespa instead refused to cooperate and demanded control, slowly killing the scene. Esf and gom have only tried to make SC2 great, and laid the foundation for what it is today.
While their power was small, I think esf was a great orgnization with heart. Thanks for your hard work esf!! lol no, they didn't join because Blizzard gave GOM exclusive rights... Eh, you make it sound as if Blizzard gave GOM exclusive rights after KespA transitioned to sc2, is that really right? :o Such a long time ago, and my memory isn't the best... nah, they gave GOM exclusive rights before SC2 was released, meaning Kespa was unable to switch as their partners at the time were OnGameNet and MBC Game. That was all done because Blizzard asked Kespa to give them money for BW tournaments when they realized it existed about a year or two before SC2 was released. Obviously Kespa didn't want to as they were the ones who nurtured the BW scene from the ground. They sued Kespa afaik (was eventually solved outside of court) and gave GOM the exclusive rights in order to manipulate Kespa out of SC2 scene. Basically a Blizzard power struggle with Kespa is to be blamed for SC2 not being as big as it could/should in Korea. or you could see it as a kespa power struggle for not paying dues *shrug Problem is, Kespa doesn't have money. They are non-profit organization sanctioned by government, everything they earn goes straight back to esport scene. What more, Kespa tournaments are for sure not profitable for them nowadays, they are only running on sponsorships. And I believe that was also most probably true in BW.
Also, Blizzard didn't have ANY rights for any money from Korean BW scene. Even if Kespa would be turning billions of profit, it was them who made the BW esports. Yes, Blizzard made the game, but other than that nothing. They were not at all interested in that scene even, until SC2 development started. It's like if some heir to the guy who 'invented' tennis was asking for money from ATP or football/FIFA or golf/PGA or any other comparison you want to think about.
In the end, I want to speculate - after the matchfixing scandal, I believe nobody would be happier more than Kespa to switch to SC2 asap. But Blizzard tried to push them into corner and they unfortunately couldn't. So yes, I blame Blizzard for eSF existing in the first place and what's worse I blame them for the state of SC2 in Korea right now even though now they are doing their best to save anything that's left. I wonder if it will be enough though.
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Well now we can have one great team league and (at least) one great singles tournament with out all this esf vs kespa nonsense.
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I love how half of the comments confuse GSTL, ESF and GOMTV on a number 1 western website dedicated to starcraft. Or keep talking about Azubu who never was part of ESF and has nothing to do with ESF disbanding. Are you guys even trying to pretend you are interested in starcraft proscene?
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On January 28 2014 22:24 Ammanas wrote:Show nested quote +On January 28 2014 21:18 opterown wrote:On January 28 2014 20:56 Kheve wrote: Finally this arrogant fake organization bites the dust. Their only act in their existence was to bully Slayers just to show that they are a real organization. No rules no tournament no nothing, just gang up to bully someone. All stick and no carrot. Bleh now finally sc2 have a chance (tiny one) in korea. don't be an idiot, they saved sc2 by manfighting kespa over the GSL boycotting issue On January 28 2014 20:22 Ammanas wrote:On January 28 2014 20:17 JustPassingBy wrote:On January 28 2014 19:53 Ammanas wrote:On January 28 2014 18:47 RoninKenshin wrote: I don't think it's a bad thing, but people really aren't giving esf any credit. They were the ones that put Starcraft 2 first, while Kespa refused to join out of stubbornness and spite. Then while esf put out open arms when kespa switched over, kespa instead refused to cooperate and demanded control, slowly killing the scene. Esf and gom have only tried to make SC2 great, and laid the foundation for what it is today.
While their power was small, I think esf was a great orgnization with heart. Thanks for your hard work esf!! lol no, they didn't join because Blizzard gave GOM exclusive rights... Eh, you make it sound as if Blizzard gave GOM exclusive rights after KespA transitioned to sc2, is that really right? :o Such a long time ago, and my memory isn't the best... nah, they gave GOM exclusive rights before SC2 was released, meaning Kespa was unable to switch as their partners at the time were OnGameNet and MBC Game. That was all done because Blizzard asked Kespa to give them money for BW tournaments when they realized it existed about a year or two before SC2 was released. Obviously Kespa didn't want to as they were the ones who nurtured the BW scene from the ground. They sued Kespa afaik (was eventually solved outside of court) and gave GOM the exclusive rights in order to manipulate Kespa out of SC2 scene. Basically a Blizzard power struggle with Kespa is to be blamed for SC2 not being as big as it could/should in Korea. or you could see it as a kespa power struggle for not paying dues *shrug Problem is, Kespa doesn't have money. They are non-profit organization sanctioned by government, everything they earn goes straight back to esport scene. What more, Kespa tournaments are for sure not profitable for them nowadays, they are only running on sponsorships. And I believe that was also most probably true in BW. Also, Blizzard didn't have ANY rights for any money from Korean BW scene. Even if Kespa would be turning billions of profit, it was them who made the BW esports. Yes, Blizzard made the game, but other than that nothing. They were not at all interested in that scene even, until SC2 development started. It's like if some heir to the guy who 'invented' tennis was asking for money from ATP or football/FIFA or golf/PGA or any other comparison you want to think about. In the end, I want to speculate - after the matchfixing scandal, I believe nobody would be happier more than Kespa to switch to SC2 asap. But Blizzard tried to push them into corner and they unfortunately couldn't. So yes, I blame Blizzard for eSF existing in the first place and what's worse I blame them for the state of SC2 in Korea right now even though now they are doing their best to save anything that's left. I wonder if it will be enough though. Kespa doesn't have money? Lol? You do know that all the oil companies I the would could form a non-profit and as long as they don't make a profit at the end of the year they still qualify. Even if they are loaded.
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On January 28 2014 22:39 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On January 28 2014 22:24 Ammanas wrote:On January 28 2014 21:18 opterown wrote:On January 28 2014 20:56 Kheve wrote: Finally this arrogant fake organization bites the dust. Their only act in their existence was to bully Slayers just to show that they are a real organization. No rules no tournament no nothing, just gang up to bully someone. All stick and no carrot. Bleh now finally sc2 have a chance (tiny one) in korea. don't be an idiot, they saved sc2 by manfighting kespa over the GSL boycotting issue On January 28 2014 20:22 Ammanas wrote:On January 28 2014 20:17 JustPassingBy wrote:On January 28 2014 19:53 Ammanas wrote:On January 28 2014 18:47 RoninKenshin wrote: I don't think it's a bad thing, but people really aren't giving esf any credit. They were the ones that put Starcraft 2 first, while Kespa refused to join out of stubbornness and spite. Then while esf put out open arms when kespa switched over, kespa instead refused to cooperate and demanded control, slowly killing the scene. Esf and gom have only tried to make SC2 great, and laid the foundation for what it is today.
While their power was small, I think esf was a great orgnization with heart. Thanks for your hard work esf!! lol no, they didn't join because Blizzard gave GOM exclusive rights... Eh, you make it sound as if Blizzard gave GOM exclusive rights after KespA transitioned to sc2, is that really right? :o Such a long time ago, and my memory isn't the best... nah, they gave GOM exclusive rights before SC2 was released, meaning Kespa was unable to switch as their partners at the time were OnGameNet and MBC Game. That was all done because Blizzard asked Kespa to give them money for BW tournaments when they realized it existed about a year or two before SC2 was released. Obviously Kespa didn't want to as they were the ones who nurtured the BW scene from the ground. They sued Kespa afaik (was eventually solved outside of court) and gave GOM the exclusive rights in order to manipulate Kespa out of SC2 scene. Basically a Blizzard power struggle with Kespa is to be blamed for SC2 not being as big as it could/should in Korea. or you could see it as a kespa power struggle for not paying dues *shrug Problem is, Kespa doesn't have money. They are non-profit organization sanctioned by government, everything they earn goes straight back to esport scene. What more, Kespa tournaments are for sure not profitable for them nowadays, they are only running on sponsorships. And I believe that was also most probably true in BW. Also, Blizzard didn't have ANY rights for any money from Korean BW scene. Even if Kespa would be turning billions of profit, it was them who made the BW esports. Yes, Blizzard made the game, but other than that nothing. They were not at all interested in that scene even, until SC2 development started. It's like if some heir to the guy who 'invented' tennis was asking for money from ATP or football/FIFA or golf/PGA or any other comparison you want to think about. In the end, I want to speculate - after the matchfixing scandal, I believe nobody would be happier more than Kespa to switch to SC2 asap. But Blizzard tried to push them into corner and they unfortunately couldn't. So yes, I blame Blizzard for eSF existing in the first place and what's worse I blame them for the state of SC2 in Korea right now even though now they are doing their best to save anything that's left. I wonder if it will be enough though. Kespa doesn't have money? Lol? You do know that all the oil companies I the would could form a non-profit and as long as they don't make a profit at the end of the year they still qualify. Even if they are loaded.
Ahh thats because of the corporate practices in the west. In the west accounting practise generally allows u to cook the books as long as u are not caught. Enron and such were exceptions because they sucks at cheating otherwise its fine. Thats western culture. And its accepted evidenced by the huge amount of Ponzis like Madoff. So long as you;re not caught, its the right thing to do. Rules and regulations tend to be frowned on because it infringes on free market (suckers will be suckered). Even the banking crisis was not sufficient impetus for federal oversight.
In the Korea sadly such things are frowned upon, whistleblowing will happen and ppl will go to jail. In china corporate malpractice can even earn a bullet (And stay of executions are usually for mere months instead of years). Furthermore Kespa is not owned by anyone thus every stakeholder have equal rights (though some are more equal). The current Kespa president is a congressman. Plenty of of willing whistleblower who would love a scandal if there were even any hanky panky they are supposed to be involved in.
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I'm not really solid that Kespa is a magical, nice nonprofit because of Korean culture and public oversight. They are still a group created by the companies that find Esports in Korea to represent their intrest. I don't think they are evil, but they are no less business minded than Blizzard or any other company.
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On January 28 2014 23:01 Kheve wrote:Show nested quote +On January 28 2014 22:39 Plansix wrote:On January 28 2014 22:24 Ammanas wrote:On January 28 2014 21:18 opterown wrote:On January 28 2014 20:56 Kheve wrote: Finally this arrogant fake organization bites the dust. Their only act in their existence was to bully Slayers just to show that they are a real organization. No rules no tournament no nothing, just gang up to bully someone. All stick and no carrot. Bleh now finally sc2 have a chance (tiny one) in korea. don't be an idiot, they saved sc2 by manfighting kespa over the GSL boycotting issue On January 28 2014 20:22 Ammanas wrote:On January 28 2014 20:17 JustPassingBy wrote:On January 28 2014 19:53 Ammanas wrote:On January 28 2014 18:47 RoninKenshin wrote: I don't think it's a bad thing, but people really aren't giving esf any credit. They were the ones that put Starcraft 2 first, while Kespa refused to join out of stubbornness and spite. Then while esf put out open arms when kespa switched over, kespa instead refused to cooperate and demanded control, slowly killing the scene. Esf and gom have only tried to make SC2 great, and laid the foundation for what it is today.
While their power was small, I think esf was a great orgnization with heart. Thanks for your hard work esf!! lol no, they didn't join because Blizzard gave GOM exclusive rights... Eh, you make it sound as if Blizzard gave GOM exclusive rights after KespA transitioned to sc2, is that really right? :o Such a long time ago, and my memory isn't the best... nah, they gave GOM exclusive rights before SC2 was released, meaning Kespa was unable to switch as their partners at the time were OnGameNet and MBC Game. That was all done because Blizzard asked Kespa to give them money for BW tournaments when they realized it existed about a year or two before SC2 was released. Obviously Kespa didn't want to as they were the ones who nurtured the BW scene from the ground. They sued Kespa afaik (was eventually solved outside of court) and gave GOM the exclusive rights in order to manipulate Kespa out of SC2 scene. Basically a Blizzard power struggle with Kespa is to be blamed for SC2 not being as big as it could/should in Korea. or you could see it as a kespa power struggle for not paying dues *shrug Problem is, Kespa doesn't have money. They are non-profit organization sanctioned by government, everything they earn goes straight back to esport scene. What more, Kespa tournaments are for sure not profitable for them nowadays, they are only running on sponsorships. And I believe that was also most probably true in BW. Also, Blizzard didn't have ANY rights for any money from Korean BW scene. Even if Kespa would be turning billions of profit, it was them who made the BW esports. Yes, Blizzard made the game, but other than that nothing. They were not at all interested in that scene even, until SC2 development started. It's like if some heir to the guy who 'invented' tennis was asking for money from ATP or football/FIFA or golf/PGA or any other comparison you want to think about. In the end, I want to speculate - after the matchfixing scandal, I believe nobody would be happier more than Kespa to switch to SC2 asap. But Blizzard tried to push them into corner and they unfortunately couldn't. So yes, I blame Blizzard for eSF existing in the first place and what's worse I blame them for the state of SC2 in Korea right now even though now they are doing their best to save anything that's left. I wonder if it will be enough though. Kespa doesn't have money? Lol? You do know that all the oil companies I the would could form a non-profit and as long as they don't make a profit at the end of the year they still qualify. Even if they are loaded. Ahh thats because of the corporate practices in the west. In the west accounting practise generally allows u to cook the books as long as u are not caught. Enron and such were exceptions because they sucks at cheating otherwise its fine. Thats western culture. And its accepted evidenced by the huge amount of Ponzis like Madoff. So long as you;re not caught, its the right thing to do. Rules and regulations tend to be frowned on because it infringes on free market (suckers will be suckered). Even the banking crisis was not sufficient impetus for federal oversight. In the Korea sadly such things are frowned upon, whistleblowing will happen and ppl will go to jail. In china corporate malpractice can even earn a bullet (And stay of executions are usually for mere months instead of years). Furthermore Kespa is not owned by anyone thus every stakeholder have equal rights (though some are more equal). The current Kespa president is a congressman. Plenty of of willing whistleblower who would love a scandal if there were even any hanky panky they are supposed to be involved in.
Is this a troll? Bribing has a huge history in China, i would argue that there is "cheating" in every country of the world and let us not talk about Korea, i just have to say Lee Kun-hee! 130 million $ in slush funds was it, right?
Organised crime is always a problem. In every country - to claim other wise is gullible.
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Was waiting for this to happen.
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On January 28 2014 16:28 Nerevar wrote:Show nested quote +On January 28 2014 16:25 -Kyo- wrote:On January 28 2014 16:17 GTPGlitch wrote:On January 28 2014 16:13 Wafflelisk wrote:I know we all saw it coming and everything, but I'm gonna be so nostalgic over staying up till 2 a.m and watching the GSL someday.. I think I already am Uh, dude, just cause esf died doesn't mean GSL is dead?_? Yes, just to clarify: eSF is run by the team managers and organizers of non-kespa teams. GSL is run by GOMTV which is completely independent. This means, more than likely, the ultimate end to GSTL as there is proleague. However, qualifiers for WCS are run through GOMTV (Code A/S) so they will stuff have a lot of content to provide on that front. I can still see GSTL as a shorter special event kind of league during Proleague's off-season assuming GOM can negotiate a nice deal with KeSPA.
This almost certainly won't happen. OGN surely has exclusive rights to content provided by KeSPA teams and there is no way GOM would pay OGN's asking price for their own mini-league.
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pls introduce 2 new challenger teams for the Proleague. 10 man proleague would be intense.
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On January 28 2014 23:11 Crytash wrote:Show nested quote +On January 28 2014 23:01 Kheve wrote:On January 28 2014 22:39 Plansix wrote:On January 28 2014 22:24 Ammanas wrote:On January 28 2014 21:18 opterown wrote:On January 28 2014 20:56 Kheve wrote: Finally this arrogant fake organization bites the dust. Their only act in their existence was to bully Slayers just to show that they are a real organization. No rules no tournament no nothing, just gang up to bully someone. All stick and no carrot. Bleh now finally sc2 have a chance (tiny one) in korea. don't be an idiot, they saved sc2 by manfighting kespa over the GSL boycotting issue On January 28 2014 20:22 Ammanas wrote:On January 28 2014 20:17 JustPassingBy wrote:On January 28 2014 19:53 Ammanas wrote:On January 28 2014 18:47 RoninKenshin wrote: I don't think it's a bad thing, but people really aren't giving esf any credit. They were the ones that put Starcraft 2 first, while Kespa refused to join out of stubbornness and spite. Then while esf put out open arms when kespa switched over, kespa instead refused to cooperate and demanded control, slowly killing the scene. Esf and gom have only tried to make SC2 great, and laid the foundation for what it is today.
While their power was small, I think esf was a great orgnization with heart. Thanks for your hard work esf!! lol no, they didn't join because Blizzard gave GOM exclusive rights... Eh, you make it sound as if Blizzard gave GOM exclusive rights after KespA transitioned to sc2, is that really right? :o Such a long time ago, and my memory isn't the best... nah, they gave GOM exclusive rights before SC2 was released, meaning Kespa was unable to switch as their partners at the time were OnGameNet and MBC Game. That was all done because Blizzard asked Kespa to give them money for BW tournaments when they realized it existed about a year or two before SC2 was released. Obviously Kespa didn't want to as they were the ones who nurtured the BW scene from the ground. They sued Kespa afaik (was eventually solved outside of court) and gave GOM the exclusive rights in order to manipulate Kespa out of SC2 scene. Basically a Blizzard power struggle with Kespa is to be blamed for SC2 not being as big as it could/should in Korea. or you could see it as a kespa power struggle for not paying dues *shrug Problem is, Kespa doesn't have money. They are non-profit organization sanctioned by government, everything they earn goes straight back to esport scene. What more, Kespa tournaments are for sure not profitable for them nowadays, they are only running on sponsorships. And I believe that was also most probably true in BW. Also, Blizzard didn't have ANY rights for any money from Korean BW scene. Even if Kespa would be turning billions of profit, it was them who made the BW esports. Yes, Blizzard made the game, but other than that nothing. They were not at all interested in that scene even, until SC2 development started. It's like if some heir to the guy who 'invented' tennis was asking for money from ATP or football/FIFA or golf/PGA or any other comparison you want to think about. In the end, I want to speculate - after the matchfixing scandal, I believe nobody would be happier more than Kespa to switch to SC2 asap. But Blizzard tried to push them into corner and they unfortunately couldn't. So yes, I blame Blizzard for eSF existing in the first place and what's worse I blame them for the state of SC2 in Korea right now even though now they are doing their best to save anything that's left. I wonder if it will be enough though. Kespa doesn't have money? Lol? You do know that all the oil companies I the would could form a non-profit and as long as they don't make a profit at the end of the year they still qualify. Even if they are loaded. Ahh thats because of the corporate practices in the west. In the west accounting practise generally allows u to cook the books as long as u are not caught. Enron and such were exceptions because they sucks at cheating otherwise its fine. Thats western culture. And its accepted evidenced by the huge amount of Ponzis like Madoff. So long as you;re not caught, its the right thing to do. Rules and regulations tend to be frowned on because it infringes on free market (suckers will be suckered). Even the banking crisis was not sufficient impetus for federal oversight. In the Korea sadly such things are frowned upon, whistleblowing will happen and ppl will go to jail. In china corporate malpractice can even earn a bullet (And stay of executions are usually for mere months instead of years). Furthermore Kespa is not owned by anyone thus every stakeholder have equal rights (though some are more equal). The current Kespa president is a congressman. Plenty of of willing whistleblower who would love a scandal if there were even any hanky panky they are supposed to be involved in. Is this a troll? Bribing has a huge history in China, i would argue that there is "cheating" in every country of the world and let us not talk about Korea, i just have to say Lee Kun-hee! 130 million $ in slush funds was it, right? Organised crime is always a problem. In every country - to claim other wise is gullible.
No one said china is a paradise -_-. Its the consequence and social acceptability. Bribing is called lobbying in the west and the bribes are called gifts. Its legal in the west. Its illegal in china and 20 years ago, every few months we see some politician gets a bullet (China has the biggest civil service in the world due to its population). These days China are becoming more westernised and only gets jail. 20 years later maybe lobbying can be legal and gifts can even be publicly recorded and accepted.
Accounting practices in china is very strict. lots of government restrictions and rules. Thats also why lots of big china company prefer to list in western markets. The western accounting practice is very open-minded and cheating (by asian confucian standards) is not frowned upon.
That is the most important difference between Kespa and western companies. No one owns kespa. The organization is powerful but no one owns it but the esports scene itself. Its exactly like FIFA etc who have billions in revenue but all that money MUST be funneled back into the football. Sepp Blater might be very powerful but he is no way touching the billions of FIFA revenue. He might get a lot of gifts etc but he certainly cant use any of the FIFA revenues.
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5003 Posts
man thinking about it now i wonder what would have happened if blizzard didn't do all of this nonsense transition stuff and just let kespa teams run SC2 and BW teams separately
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Bisutopia18992 Posts
eSF really helped SC a lot when it need it. Thanks to the organizers.
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On January 28 2014 23:39 Milkis wrote: man thinking about it now i wonder what would have happened if blizzard didn't do all of this nonsense transition stuff and just let kespa teams run SC2 and BW teams separately Well they had to sue to protect their copyright in Korea before selling SC2, since copyright law works similar to that in the US(from my understanding). I think that the rise of ESf and GOM put pressure on Kespa to reform some of their disliked practices and not be the only broadcaster on the block. Both Blizzard and Kespa seem to have come a long way since 2010.
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Since StarTale isn't in Proleague, Life will just have to win every GSL this year to keep up the exposure. It's k, npnp.
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On January 28 2014 23:35 Kheve wrote:Show nested quote +On January 28 2014 23:11 Crytash wrote:On January 28 2014 23:01 Kheve wrote:On January 28 2014 22:39 Plansix wrote:On January 28 2014 22:24 Ammanas wrote:On January 28 2014 21:18 opterown wrote:On January 28 2014 20:56 Kheve wrote: Finally this arrogant fake organization bites the dust. Their only act in their existence was to bully Slayers just to show that they are a real organization. No rules no tournament no nothing, just gang up to bully someone. All stick and no carrot. Bleh now finally sc2 have a chance (tiny one) in korea. don't be an idiot, they saved sc2 by manfighting kespa over the GSL boycotting issue On January 28 2014 20:22 Ammanas wrote:On January 28 2014 20:17 JustPassingBy wrote:On January 28 2014 19:53 Ammanas wrote:On January 28 2014 18:47 RoninKenshin wrote: I don't think it's a bad thing, but people really aren't giving esf any credit. They were the ones that put Starcraft 2 first, while Kespa refused to join out of stubbornness and spite. Then while esf put out open arms when kespa switched over, kespa instead refused to cooperate and demanded control, slowly killing the scene. Esf and gom have only tried to make SC2 great, and laid the foundation for what it is today.
While their power was small, I think esf was a great orgnization with heart. Thanks for your hard work esf!! lol no, they didn't join because Blizzard gave GOM exclusive rights... Eh, you make it sound as if Blizzard gave GOM exclusive rights after KespA transitioned to sc2, is that really right? :o Such a long time ago, and my memory isn't the best... nah, they gave GOM exclusive rights before SC2 was released, meaning Kespa was unable to switch as their partners at the time were OnGameNet and MBC Game. That was all done because Blizzard asked Kespa to give them money for BW tournaments when they realized it existed about a year or two before SC2 was released. Obviously Kespa didn't want to as they were the ones who nurtured the BW scene from the ground. They sued Kespa afaik (was eventually solved outside of court) and gave GOM the exclusive rights in order to manipulate Kespa out of SC2 scene. Basically a Blizzard power struggle with Kespa is to be blamed for SC2 not being as big as it could/should in Korea. or you could see it as a kespa power struggle for not paying dues *shrug Problem is, Kespa doesn't have money. They are non-profit organization sanctioned by government, everything they earn goes straight back to esport scene. What more, Kespa tournaments are for sure not profitable for them nowadays, they are only running on sponsorships. And I believe that was also most probably true in BW. Also, Blizzard didn't have ANY rights for any money from Korean BW scene. Even if Kespa would be turning billions of profit, it was them who made the BW esports. Yes, Blizzard made the game, but other than that nothing. They were not at all interested in that scene even, until SC2 development started. It's like if some heir to the guy who 'invented' tennis was asking for money from ATP or football/FIFA or golf/PGA or any other comparison you want to think about. In the end, I want to speculate - after the matchfixing scandal, I believe nobody would be happier more than Kespa to switch to SC2 asap. But Blizzard tried to push them into corner and they unfortunately couldn't. So yes, I blame Blizzard for eSF existing in the first place and what's worse I blame them for the state of SC2 in Korea right now even though now they are doing their best to save anything that's left. I wonder if it will be enough though. Kespa doesn't have money? Lol? You do know that all the oil companies I the would could form a non-profit and as long as they don't make a profit at the end of the year they still qualify. Even if they are loaded. Ahh thats because of the corporate practices in the west. In the west accounting practise generally allows u to cook the books as long as u are not caught. Enron and such were exceptions because they sucks at cheating otherwise its fine. Thats western culture. And its accepted evidenced by the huge amount of Ponzis like Madoff. So long as you;re not caught, its the right thing to do. Rules and regulations tend to be frowned on because it infringes on free market (suckers will be suckered). Even the banking crisis was not sufficient impetus for federal oversight. In the Korea sadly such things are frowned upon, whistleblowing will happen and ppl will go to jail. In china corporate malpractice can even earn a bullet (And stay of executions are usually for mere months instead of years). Furthermore Kespa is not owned by anyone thus every stakeholder have equal rights (though some are more equal). The current Kespa president is a congressman. Plenty of of willing whistleblower who would love a scandal if there were even any hanky panky they are supposed to be involved in. Is this a troll? Bribing has a huge history in China, i would argue that there is "cheating" in every country of the world and let us not talk about Korea, i just have to say Lee Kun-hee! 130 million $ in slush funds was it, right? Organised crime is always a problem. In every country - to claim other wise is gullible. No one said china is a paradise -_-. Its the consequence and social acceptability. Bribing is called lobbying in the west and the bribes are called gifts. Its legal in the west. Its illegal in china and 20 years ago, every few months we see some politician gets a bullet (China has the biggest civil service in the world due to its population). These days China are becoming more westernised and only gets jail. 20 years later maybe lobbying can be legal and gifts can even be publicly recorded and accepted. Accounting practices in china is very strict. lots of government restrictions and rules. Thats also why lots of big china company prefer to list in western markets. The western accounting practice is very open-minded and cheating (by asian confucian standards) is not frowned upon. That is the most important difference between Kespa and western companies. No one owns kespa. The organization is powerful but no one owns it but the esports scene itself. Its exactly like FIFA etc who have billions in revenue but all that money MUST be funneled back into the football. Sepp Blater might be very powerful but he is no way touching the billions of FIFA revenue. He might get a lot of gifts etc but he certainly cant use any of the FIFA revenues.
First of all, i did not say that it would be a paradise (that was the other poster), second to that there is still (legal) lobbying in China. Please stop posting false information. Guanxi is one of the most important things to understand when you are doing business in China and saying that lobbying is illigal, esp. soft lobbying like sharing studys of think tanks, etc. is afaik still huge.
Those gifts you are talking about still exist, just as bribes and is wide spread.
You want to talk to a german about rules/laws and obidience? Realy?
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France9034 Posts
Though I'm grateful for what they did sometimes (esp. wrt the GSL boycott), I think it's for the greater good that they disband. I hope that with the KeSPA changes that happened some time ago (which I seem to remember were quite good with less opportunities to fuck up the players and teams), this can lead to a better and more coherent scene.
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With more and more team leaving it seemed like only a matter of time. ESF did help out a lot in the early days of sc2 but not with out issues and controversy. Hopefully the few remaining teams will be able to join kespa.
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Expected, but still unfortunate seeing it being officially announced.
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Rest in peace. They did a fantastic job during their tenure
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I guess they kind of achieved their goal by getting kespa to change it's attitude towards the sc2 teams and players, so this is less a "failure" in my opinion. Still, we will have to wait and see if Kespa goes back to the bad old ways without any alternative structure for teams.
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On January 28 2014 23:59 Crytash wrote:Show nested quote +On January 28 2014 23:35 Kheve wrote:On January 28 2014 23:11 Crytash wrote:On January 28 2014 23:01 Kheve wrote:On January 28 2014 22:39 Plansix wrote:On January 28 2014 22:24 Ammanas wrote:On January 28 2014 21:18 opterown wrote:On January 28 2014 20:56 Kheve wrote: Finally this arrogant fake organization bites the dust. Their only act in their existence was to bully Slayers just to show that they are a real organization. No rules no tournament no nothing, just gang up to bully someone. All stick and no carrot. Bleh now finally sc2 have a chance (tiny one) in korea. don't be an idiot, they saved sc2 by manfighting kespa over the GSL boycotting issue On January 28 2014 20:22 Ammanas wrote:On January 28 2014 20:17 JustPassingBy wrote:On January 28 2014 19:53 Ammanas wrote: [quote] lol no, they didn't join because Blizzard gave GOM exclusive rights... Eh, you make it sound as if Blizzard gave GOM exclusive rights after KespA transitioned to sc2, is that really right? :o Such a long time ago, and my memory isn't the best... nah, they gave GOM exclusive rights before SC2 was released, meaning Kespa was unable to switch as their partners at the time were OnGameNet and MBC Game. That was all done because Blizzard asked Kespa to give them money for BW tournaments when they realized it existed about a year or two before SC2 was released. Obviously Kespa didn't want to as they were the ones who nurtured the BW scene from the ground. They sued Kespa afaik (was eventually solved outside of court) and gave GOM the exclusive rights in order to manipulate Kespa out of SC2 scene. Basically a Blizzard power struggle with Kespa is to be blamed for SC2 not being as big as it could/should in Korea. or you could see it as a kespa power struggle for not paying dues *shrug Problem is, Kespa doesn't have money. They are non-profit organization sanctioned by government, everything they earn goes straight back to esport scene. What more, Kespa tournaments are for sure not profitable for them nowadays, they are only running on sponsorships. And I believe that was also most probably true in BW. Also, Blizzard didn't have ANY rights for any money from Korean BW scene. Even if Kespa would be turning billions of profit, it was them who made the BW esports. Yes, Blizzard made the game, but other than that nothing. They were not at all interested in that scene even, until SC2 development started. It's like if some heir to the guy who 'invented' tennis was asking for money from ATP or football/FIFA or golf/PGA or any other comparison you want to think about. In the end, I want to speculate - after the matchfixing scandal, I believe nobody would be happier more than Kespa to switch to SC2 asap. But Blizzard tried to push them into corner and they unfortunately couldn't. So yes, I blame Blizzard for eSF existing in the first place and what's worse I blame them for the state of SC2 in Korea right now even though now they are doing their best to save anything that's left. I wonder if it will be enough though. Kespa doesn't have money? Lol? You do know that all the oil companies I the would could form a non-profit and as long as they don't make a profit at the end of the year they still qualify. Even if they are loaded. Ahh thats because of the corporate practices in the west. In the west accounting practise generally allows u to cook the books as long as u are not caught. Enron and such were exceptions because they sucks at cheating otherwise its fine. Thats western culture. And its accepted evidenced by the huge amount of Ponzis like Madoff. So long as you;re not caught, its the right thing to do. Rules and regulations tend to be frowned on because it infringes on free market (suckers will be suckered). Even the banking crisis was not sufficient impetus for federal oversight. In the Korea sadly such things are frowned upon, whistleblowing will happen and ppl will go to jail. In china corporate malpractice can even earn a bullet (And stay of executions are usually for mere months instead of years). Furthermore Kespa is not owned by anyone thus every stakeholder have equal rights (though some are more equal). The current Kespa president is a congressman. Plenty of of willing whistleblower who would love a scandal if there were even any hanky panky they are supposed to be involved in. Is this a troll? Bribing has a huge history in China, i would argue that there is "cheating" in every country of the world and let us not talk about Korea, i just have to say Lee Kun-hee! 130 million $ in slush funds was it, right? Organised crime is always a problem. In every country - to claim other wise is gullible. No one said china is a paradise -_-. Its the consequence and social acceptability. Bribing is called lobbying in the west and the bribes are called gifts. Its legal in the west. Its illegal in china and 20 years ago, every few months we see some politician gets a bullet (China has the biggest civil service in the world due to its population). These days China are becoming more westernised and only gets jail. 20 years later maybe lobbying can be legal and gifts can even be publicly recorded and accepted. Accounting practices in china is very strict. lots of government restrictions and rules. Thats also why lots of big china company prefer to list in western markets. The western accounting practice is very open-minded and cheating (by asian confucian standards) is not frowned upon. That is the most important difference between Kespa and western companies. No one owns kespa. The organization is powerful but no one owns it but the esports scene itself. Its exactly like FIFA etc who have billions in revenue but all that money MUST be funneled back into the football. Sepp Blater might be very powerful but he is no way touching the billions of FIFA revenue. He might get a lot of gifts etc but he certainly cant use any of the FIFA revenues. First of all, i did not say that it would be a paradise (that was the other poster), second to that there is still (legal) lobbying in China. Please stop posting false information. Guanxi is one of the most important things to understand when you are doing business in China and saying that lobbying is illigal, esp. soft lobbying like sharing studys of think tanks, etc. is afaik still huge. Those gifts you are talking about still exist, just as bribes and is wide spread. You want to talk to a german about rules/laws and obidience? Realy?
Guanxi merely means 'relationship'. It exist everywhere. Foreigners who make it in china likes to make it like a unique science when its just relationship. Dick Cheney is a stakeholder in an oil company which got projects in iraq. These things happen everywhere. However in china, the moment personal gain can be found, it is corruption regardless of whether you sincerely like that guys proposal and thus accepted it. Thus the rules for guanxi is a lot stricter than western 'relationship'.
In Example, there was a business selling liquor and alcohol in china. The cheapest cigarette was 100,000 RMB which is about 16-17k USD. The business had a 99% refund policy no questions asked. Liquors lists for above 1million RMB per case. This was a very very successful business for about 2+ years. Everything was legal about it the accounts are impeccably transparent. It has its own brand for all its items. It started in south china (cant remember which province though its prolly guangdong) and expanded to 3 branches.Yet this was finally closed down using a money-laundering law. the reason? Coz it was used mainly by ppl who presents gifts thus its bribery by chinese standards. It is perfectly legal mind you, the owner was finally released with no charge since he maintained he does not know any of his customers personally and had no idea of their doings. But the business was shut down by the government. It goes to show that in china you cant get away with merely being legal, you have to be right too. Even funnier example, one 4rd generation retired politburo son crashed a ferrari (the son is 40+ years old btw) recently. No crime took place. The retired politician immediately publicly disowns his son. Even the sign of wealth (even if u r not intentionally flaunting it) is not considered acceptable. That is how strict old chinese were.
Kespa in all its history never showed even a single financial irregularity. Blizzard was caught cheating time and time again (Counterstrike, commercial license etc etc) scamming its partners with creative accounting. The best part is, they even delayed payment after a court judgement was given.. Its normal in the west society dont make a hoohah out of it. In korea before the judgement is even handed down, ppl involved bow their head and apologize (hypocrite imo). But it goes to show wat society can/cannot accept in korea.
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Goodbye eSF! You served your purpose well while you were needed. Thanks for your contributions to changing the SC2 landscape
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On January 29 2014 00:35 Kheve wrote:Show nested quote +On January 28 2014 23:59 Crytash wrote:On January 28 2014 23:35 Kheve wrote:On January 28 2014 23:11 Crytash wrote:On January 28 2014 23:01 Kheve wrote:On January 28 2014 22:39 Plansix wrote:On January 28 2014 22:24 Ammanas wrote:On January 28 2014 21:18 opterown wrote:On January 28 2014 20:56 Kheve wrote: Finally this arrogant fake organization bites the dust. Their only act in their existence was to bully Slayers just to show that they are a real organization. No rules no tournament no nothing, just gang up to bully someone. All stick and no carrot. Bleh now finally sc2 have a chance (tiny one) in korea. don't be an idiot, they saved sc2 by manfighting kespa over the GSL boycotting issue On January 28 2014 20:22 Ammanas wrote:On January 28 2014 20:17 JustPassingBy wrote: [quote]
Eh, you make it sound as if Blizzard gave GOM exclusive rights after KespA transitioned to sc2, is that really right? :o Such a long time ago, and my memory isn't the best... nah, they gave GOM exclusive rights before SC2 was released, meaning Kespa was unable to switch as their partners at the time were OnGameNet and MBC Game. That was all done because Blizzard asked Kespa to give them money for BW tournaments when they realized it existed about a year or two before SC2 was released. Obviously Kespa didn't want to as they were the ones who nurtured the BW scene from the ground. They sued Kespa afaik (was eventually solved outside of court) and gave GOM the exclusive rights in order to manipulate Kespa out of SC2 scene. Basically a Blizzard power struggle with Kespa is to be blamed for SC2 not being as big as it could/should in Korea. or you could see it as a kespa power struggle for not paying dues *shrug Problem is, Kespa doesn't have money. They are non-profit organization sanctioned by government, everything they earn goes straight back to esport scene. What more, Kespa tournaments are for sure not profitable for them nowadays, they are only running on sponsorships. And I believe that was also most probably true in BW. Also, Blizzard didn't have ANY rights for any money from Korean BW scene. Even if Kespa would be turning billions of profit, it was them who made the BW esports. Yes, Blizzard made the game, but other than that nothing. They were not at all interested in that scene even, until SC2 development started. It's like if some heir to the guy who 'invented' tennis was asking for money from ATP or football/FIFA or golf/PGA or any other comparison you want to think about. In the end, I want to speculate - after the matchfixing scandal, I believe nobody would be happier more than Kespa to switch to SC2 asap. But Blizzard tried to push them into corner and they unfortunately couldn't. So yes, I blame Blizzard for eSF existing in the first place and what's worse I blame them for the state of SC2 in Korea right now even though now they are doing their best to save anything that's left. I wonder if it will be enough though. Kespa doesn't have money? Lol? You do know that all the oil companies I the would could form a non-profit and as long as they don't make a profit at the end of the year they still qualify. Even if they are loaded. Ahh thats because of the corporate practices in the west. In the west accounting practise generally allows u to cook the books as long as u are not caught. Enron and such were exceptions because they sucks at cheating otherwise its fine. Thats western culture. And its accepted evidenced by the huge amount of Ponzis like Madoff. So long as you;re not caught, its the right thing to do. Rules and regulations tend to be frowned on because it infringes on free market (suckers will be suckered). Even the banking crisis was not sufficient impetus for federal oversight. In the Korea sadly such things are frowned upon, whistleblowing will happen and ppl will go to jail. In china corporate malpractice can even earn a bullet (And stay of executions are usually for mere months instead of years). Furthermore Kespa is not owned by anyone thus every stakeholder have equal rights (though some are more equal). The current Kespa president is a congressman. Plenty of of willing whistleblower who would love a scandal if there were even any hanky panky they are supposed to be involved in. Is this a troll? Bribing has a huge history in China, i would argue that there is "cheating" in every country of the world and let us not talk about Korea, i just have to say Lee Kun-hee! 130 million $ in slush funds was it, right? Organised crime is always a problem. In every country - to claim other wise is gullible. No one said china is a paradise -_-. Its the consequence and social acceptability. Bribing is called lobbying in the west and the bribes are called gifts. Its legal in the west. Its illegal in china and 20 years ago, every few months we see some politician gets a bullet (China has the biggest civil service in the world due to its population). These days China are becoming more westernised and only gets jail. 20 years later maybe lobbying can be legal and gifts can even be publicly recorded and accepted. Accounting practices in china is very strict. lots of government restrictions and rules. Thats also why lots of big china company prefer to list in western markets. The western accounting practice is very open-minded and cheating (by asian confucian standards) is not frowned upon. That is the most important difference between Kespa and western companies. No one owns kespa. The organization is powerful but no one owns it but the esports scene itself. Its exactly like FIFA etc who have billions in revenue but all that money MUST be funneled back into the football. Sepp Blater might be very powerful but he is no way touching the billions of FIFA revenue. He might get a lot of gifts etc but he certainly cant use any of the FIFA revenues. First of all, i did not say that it would be a paradise (that was the other poster), second to that there is still (legal) lobbying in China. Please stop posting false information. Guanxi is one of the most important things to understand when you are doing business in China and saying that lobbying is illigal, esp. soft lobbying like sharing studys of think tanks, etc. is afaik still huge. Those gifts you are talking about still exist, just as bribes and is wide spread. You want to talk to a german about rules/laws and obidience? Realy? Guanxi merely means 'relationship'. It exist everywhere. Foreigners who make it in china likes to make it like a unique science when its just relationship. Dick Cheney is a stakeholder in an oil company which got projects in iraq. These things happen everywhere. However in china, the moment personal gain can be found, it is corruption regardless of whether you sincerely like that guys proposal and thus accepted it. Thus the rules for guanxi is a lot stricter than western 'relationship'. In Example, there was a business selling liquor and alcohol in china. The cheapest cigarette was 100,000 RMB which is about 16-17k USD. The business had a 99% refund policy no questions asked. Liquors lists for above 1million RMB per case. This was a very very successful business for about 2+ years. Everything was legal about it the accounts are impeccably transparent. It has its own brand for all its items. It started in south china (cant remember which province though its prolly guangdong) and expanded to 3 branches.Yet this was finally closed down using a money-laundering law. the reason? Coz it was used mainly by ppl who presents gifts thus its bribery by chinese standards. It is perfectly legal mind you, the owner was finally released with no charge since he maintained he does not know any of his customers personally and had no idea of their doings. But the business was shut down by the government. It goes to show that in china you cant get away with merely being legal, you have to be right too. Even funnier example, one 4rd generation retired politburo son crashed a ferrari (the son is 40+ years old btw) recently. No crime took place. The retired politician immediately publicly disowns his son. Even the sign of wealth (even if u r not intentionally flaunting it) is not considered acceptable. That is how strict old chinese were. Kespa in all its history never showed even a single financial irregularity. Blizzard was caught cheating time and time again (Counterstrike, commercial license etc etc) scamming its partners with creative accounting. The best part is, they even delayed payment after a court judgement was given.. Its normal in the west society dont make a hoohah out of it. In korea before the judgement is even handed down, ppl involved bow their head and apologize (hypocrite imo). But it goes to show wat society can/cannot accept in korea. My god, these are the most trolly posts I have seen in a while. The whole argument boils down to "Asian culture is magic and prevents corruption. Because of this, Kespa has been and always will be great. Blizzard isn't because it suffers the burden of Wester culture."
Seriously, take this nonsense someplace else.
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Kheve writes some pretty decent arguments but it's quite clearly biased against everything about Blizzard and what they stand for, while everything Kespa does is unquestionably good.
On January 28 2014 23:58 VisonKai wrote: Since StarTale isn't in Proleague, Life will just have to win every GSL this year to keep up the exposure. It's k, npnp. yeah just realized the implications for ST if they don't join PL....imagining startale fading into some background team that I vaguely remember existing, but don't know who the players are. Life had better keep things up
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Sad for esf, but really, there is nothing left that they could've achieved. In the end we all knew that only one of the two organizations would survive, and it turns out that Kespa was the one.
On January 29 2014 00:45 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On January 29 2014 00:35 Kheve wrote:On January 28 2014 23:59 Crytash wrote:On January 28 2014 23:35 Kheve wrote:On January 28 2014 23:11 Crytash wrote:On January 28 2014 23:01 Kheve wrote:On January 28 2014 22:39 Plansix wrote:On January 28 2014 22:24 Ammanas wrote:On January 28 2014 21:18 opterown wrote:On January 28 2014 20:56 Kheve wrote: Finally this arrogant fake organization bites the dust. Their only act in their existence was to bully Slayers just to show that they are a real organization. No rules no tournament no nothing, just gang up to bully someone. All stick and no carrot. Bleh now finally sc2 have a chance (tiny one) in korea. don't be an idiot, they saved sc2 by manfighting kespa over the GSL boycotting issue On January 28 2014 20:22 Ammanas wrote: [quote] nah, they gave GOM exclusive rights before SC2 was released, meaning Kespa was unable to switch as their partners at the time were OnGameNet and MBC Game. That was all done because Blizzard asked Kespa to give them money for BW tournaments when they realized it existed about a year or two before SC2 was released. Obviously Kespa didn't want to as they were the ones who nurtured the BW scene from the ground. They sued Kespa afaik (was eventually solved outside of court) and gave GOM the exclusive rights in order to manipulate Kespa out of SC2 scene. Basically a Blizzard power struggle with Kespa is to be blamed for SC2 not being as big as it could/should in Korea. or you could see it as a kespa power struggle for not paying dues *shrug Problem is, Kespa doesn't have money. They are non-profit organization sanctioned by government, everything they earn goes straight back to esport scene. What more, Kespa tournaments are for sure not profitable for them nowadays, they are only running on sponsorships. And I believe that was also most probably true in BW. Also, Blizzard didn't have ANY rights for any money from Korean BW scene. Even if Kespa would be turning billions of profit, it was them who made the BW esports. Yes, Blizzard made the game, but other than that nothing. They were not at all interested in that scene even, until SC2 development started. It's like if some heir to the guy who 'invented' tennis was asking for money from ATP or football/FIFA or golf/PGA or any other comparison you want to think about. In the end, I want to speculate - after the matchfixing scandal, I believe nobody would be happier more than Kespa to switch to SC2 asap. But Blizzard tried to push them into corner and they unfortunately couldn't. So yes, I blame Blizzard for eSF existing in the first place and what's worse I blame them for the state of SC2 in Korea right now even though now they are doing their best to save anything that's left. I wonder if it will be enough though. Kespa doesn't have money? Lol? You do know that all the oil companies I the would could form a non-profit and as long as they don't make a profit at the end of the year they still qualify. Even if they are loaded. Ahh thats because of the corporate practices in the west. In the west accounting practise generally allows u to cook the books as long as u are not caught. Enron and such were exceptions because they sucks at cheating otherwise its fine. Thats western culture. And its accepted evidenced by the huge amount of Ponzis like Madoff. So long as you;re not caught, its the right thing to do. Rules and regulations tend to be frowned on because it infringes on free market (suckers will be suckered). Even the banking crisis was not sufficient impetus for federal oversight. In the Korea sadly such things are frowned upon, whistleblowing will happen and ppl will go to jail. In china corporate malpractice can even earn a bullet (And stay of executions are usually for mere months instead of years). Furthermore Kespa is not owned by anyone thus every stakeholder have equal rights (though some are more equal). The current Kespa president is a congressman. Plenty of of willing whistleblower who would love a scandal if there were even any hanky panky they are supposed to be involved in. Is this a troll? Bribing has a huge history in China, i would argue that there is "cheating" in every country of the world and let us not talk about Korea, i just have to say Lee Kun-hee! 130 million $ in slush funds was it, right? Organised crime is always a problem. In every country - to claim other wise is gullible. No one said china is a paradise -_-. Its the consequence and social acceptability. Bribing is called lobbying in the west and the bribes are called gifts. Its legal in the west. Its illegal in china and 20 years ago, every few months we see some politician gets a bullet (China has the biggest civil service in the world due to its population). These days China are becoming more westernised and only gets jail. 20 years later maybe lobbying can be legal and gifts can even be publicly recorded and accepted. Accounting practices in china is very strict. lots of government restrictions and rules. Thats also why lots of big china company prefer to list in western markets. The western accounting practice is very open-minded and cheating (by asian confucian standards) is not frowned upon. That is the most important difference between Kespa and western companies. No one owns kespa. The organization is powerful but no one owns it but the esports scene itself. Its exactly like FIFA etc who have billions in revenue but all that money MUST be funneled back into the football. Sepp Blater might be very powerful but he is no way touching the billions of FIFA revenue. He might get a lot of gifts etc but he certainly cant use any of the FIFA revenues. First of all, i did not say that it would be a paradise (that was the other poster), second to that there is still (legal) lobbying in China. Please stop posting false information. Guanxi is one of the most important things to understand when you are doing business in China and saying that lobbying is illigal, esp. soft lobbying like sharing studys of think tanks, etc. is afaik still huge. Those gifts you are talking about still exist, just as bribes and is wide spread. You want to talk to a german about rules/laws and obidience? Realy? Guanxi merely means 'relationship'. It exist everywhere. Foreigners who make it in china likes to make it like a unique science when its just relationship. Dick Cheney is a stakeholder in an oil company which got projects in iraq. These things happen everywhere. However in china, the moment personal gain can be found, it is corruption regardless of whether you sincerely like that guys proposal and thus accepted it. Thus the rules for guanxi is a lot stricter than western 'relationship'. In Example, there was a business selling liquor and alcohol in china. The cheapest cigarette was 100,000 RMB which is about 16-17k USD. The business had a 99% refund policy no questions asked. Liquors lists for above 1million RMB per case. This was a very very successful business for about 2+ years. Everything was legal about it the accounts are impeccably transparent. It has its own brand for all its items. It started in south china (cant remember which province though its prolly guangdong) and expanded to 3 branches.Yet this was finally closed down using a money-laundering law. the reason? Coz it was used mainly by ppl who presents gifts thus its bribery by chinese standards. It is perfectly legal mind you, the owner was finally released with no charge since he maintained he does not know any of his customers personally and had no idea of their doings. But the business was shut down by the government. It goes to show that in china you cant get away with merely being legal, you have to be right too. Even funnier example, one 4rd generation retired politburo son crashed a ferrari (the son is 40+ years old btw) recently. No crime took place. The retired politician immediately publicly disowns his son. Even the sign of wealth (even if u r not intentionally flaunting it) is not considered acceptable. That is how strict old chinese were. Kespa in all its history never showed even a single financial irregularity. Blizzard was caught cheating time and time again (Counterstrike, commercial license etc etc) scamming its partners with creative accounting. The best part is, they even delayed payment after a court judgement was given.. Its normal in the west society dont make a hoohah out of it. In korea before the judgement is even handed down, ppl involved bow their head and apologize (hypocrite imo). But it goes to show wat society can/cannot accept in korea. My god, these are the most trolly posts I have seen in a while. The whole argument boils down to "Asian culture is magic and prevents corruption. Because of this, Kespa has been and always will be great. Blizzard isn't because it suffers the burden of Wester culture." Seriously, take this nonsense someplace else. Hey, it's fun to read at least, they probably don't even notice how nationalistic they sound
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Canada16217 Posts
On January 28 2014 18:05 JustPassingBy wrote:Show nested quote +On January 28 2014 15:57 lichter wrote: But how will Azubu remind us that they are a real team now? Wait, are you sure Azubu was even part of the eSF? they were apart of esf
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On January 29 2014 01:16 xAdra wrote:Kheve writes some pretty decent arguments but it's quite clearly biased against everything about Blizzard and what they stand for, while everything Kespa does is unquestionably good. Show nested quote +On January 28 2014 23:58 VisonKai wrote: Since StarTale isn't in Proleague, Life will just have to win every GSL this year to keep up the exposure. It's k, npnp. yeah just realized the implications for ST if they don't join PL....imagining startale fading into some background team that I vaguely remember existing, but don't know who the players are. Life had better keep things up
Thats because the news of blizzard suing BW tournaments shocked me to hell. Up to that point I was sympathetic to Blizzard trying to get into Korean Esports. After that, everything blizzard has been saying up to that point has been dispelled as fake. Blizzards official reasoning of why they sue BW? Because BW is competing with SC2. What happened to wanting to promote esports better in korea?
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One league to rule them all.
KeSPA master race.
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On January 29 2014 01:30 Kheve wrote:Show nested quote +On January 29 2014 01:16 xAdra wrote:Kheve writes some pretty decent arguments but it's quite clearly biased against everything about Blizzard and what they stand for, while everything Kespa does is unquestionably good. On January 28 2014 23:58 VisonKai wrote: Since StarTale isn't in Proleague, Life will just have to win every GSL this year to keep up the exposure. It's k, npnp. yeah just realized the implications for ST if they don't join PL....imagining startale fading into some background team that I vaguely remember existing, but don't know who the players are. Life had better keep things up Thats because the news of blizzard suing BW tournaments shocked me to hell. Up to that point I was sympathetic to Blizzard trying to get into Korean Esports. After that, everything blizzard has been saying up to that point has been dispelled as fake. Blizzards official reasoning of why they sue BW? Because BW is competing with SC2. What happened to wanting to promote esports better in korea? It has nothing to do with BW competing with SC2. It was about protecting their trademarks and copyrights to the story, art, characters and world of SC2. Copyright and trademark laws require the the holder defend their copyrights and trademarks to keep them. Blizzard had to go to court to confirm that they held the rights to all of SC2, or they risked losing it.
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On January 29 2014 01:39 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On January 29 2014 01:30 Kheve wrote:On January 29 2014 01:16 xAdra wrote:Kheve writes some pretty decent arguments but it's quite clearly biased against everything about Blizzard and what they stand for, while everything Kespa does is unquestionably good. On January 28 2014 23:58 VisonKai wrote: Since StarTale isn't in Proleague, Life will just have to win every GSL this year to keep up the exposure. It's k, npnp. yeah just realized the implications for ST if they don't join PL....imagining startale fading into some background team that I vaguely remember existing, but don't know who the players are. Life had better keep things up Thats because the news of blizzard suing BW tournaments shocked me to hell. Up to that point I was sympathetic to Blizzard trying to get into Korean Esports. After that, everything blizzard has been saying up to that point has been dispelled as fake. Blizzards official reasoning of why they sue BW? Because BW is competing with SC2. What happened to wanting to promote esports better in korea? It has nothing to do with BW competing with SC2. It was about protecting their trademarks and copyrights to the story, art, characters and world of SC2. Copyright and trademark laws require the the holder defend their copyrights and trademarks to keep them. Blizzard had to go to court to confirm that they held the rights to all of SC2, or they risked losing it.
Thats wrong. Blizzard suit was about BW tournaments being detrimental to SC2 thus seeks damages and injunction against holding BW tournaments.
The suit was seeking an injunction to stop the BW tournaments. And damages due to detriment to SC2. NOT a declaration of copyright and trademarks (It was never disputed by Kespa). The law of copyright and trademarks quite clear cut. A person who buys a BMW and then subsequently rents it out for a particular advert requiring a luxurious car is entitled to the fee. BMW have no rights on the fee received. Copyright and trademark violations is when they replicate your product/ claim to be your product/ claim to be you/ thats when copyright and trademarks damages come into play.
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Looks like no ones cares about the players here.
eSF was the firewall against the old Kespa ways, who is now the only and dominant organization. They can do whatever they want now and there is zero guarantee it will be better for the players.
I'm actually a little worried for them...
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so an asian guy posts a couple of examples of what is considered corruption in korea and china which would not be a deal at all anywhere in the west, and he just gets called a troll, laughed at and called nationalistic. really nice there.
i would like some juridical papers backing his examples up though.
except for that, i think he is entirely right. western lobbying is corruption. in some countries it's more transparent and thus less dangerous. in sweden though, "the worlds least corrupted country", it's illegal to spread information about what lobbying groups do or where they get their funding. guess USA wouldn't have been able to get their market lobbyism through here (no conspiracy, the social democratic party, largest and almost always ruling party in sweden, were bought by american lobbyists in the 80's. of course swedens technology, health, equality, richness and happiness levels plummeted since then) without first enforcing these fascist laws. corporate malpractice and political corruption should, of course, be the most severe crimes of all, because of the range of damage they cause and the power relation between the perpetrator and the victim. there is no way of preotecting yourself.
in fact, it's the only cases where i'd vote for death penalty.
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On January 29 2014 01:41 Kheve wrote:Show nested quote +On January 29 2014 01:39 Plansix wrote:On January 29 2014 01:30 Kheve wrote:On January 29 2014 01:16 xAdra wrote:Kheve writes some pretty decent arguments but it's quite clearly biased against everything about Blizzard and what they stand for, while everything Kespa does is unquestionably good. On January 28 2014 23:58 VisonKai wrote: Since StarTale isn't in Proleague, Life will just have to win every GSL this year to keep up the exposure. It's k, npnp. yeah just realized the implications for ST if they don't join PL....imagining startale fading into some background team that I vaguely remember existing, but don't know who the players are. Life had better keep things up Thats because the news of blizzard suing BW tournaments shocked me to hell. Up to that point I was sympathetic to Blizzard trying to get into Korean Esports. After that, everything blizzard has been saying up to that point has been dispelled as fake. Blizzards official reasoning of why they sue BW? Because BW is competing with SC2. What happened to wanting to promote esports better in korea? It has nothing to do with BW competing with SC2. It was about protecting their trademarks and copyrights to the story, art, characters and world of SC2. Copyright and trademark laws require the the holder defend their copyrights and trademarks to keep them. Blizzard had to go to court to confirm that they held the rights to all of SC2, or they risked losing it. Thats wrong. Blizzard suit was about BW tournaments being detrimental to SC2 thus seeks damages and injunction against holding BW tournaments. The suit was seeking an injunction to stop the BW tournaments. And damages due to detriment to SC2. NOT a declaration of copyright and trademarks (It was never disputed by Kespa). Yes, it was to confirm that Blizzard held the right to decide who broadcast SC2. If they didn't sue, they would lose the right to decide who broadcast SC2. It's a defend to or lose it system.
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I think we all knew this day would eventually come.
Hopefully the players and teams will find safe and successful working conditions. My heart breaks a little every time I read about how Player X got screwed out of his hard-earned winnings, or how Team Y is abusing their players.
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On January 29 2014 01:41 Kheve wrote:Show nested quote +On January 29 2014 01:39 Plansix wrote:On January 29 2014 01:30 Kheve wrote:On January 29 2014 01:16 xAdra wrote:Kheve writes some pretty decent arguments but it's quite clearly biased against everything about Blizzard and what they stand for, while everything Kespa does is unquestionably good. On January 28 2014 23:58 VisonKai wrote: Since StarTale isn't in Proleague, Life will just have to win every GSL this year to keep up the exposure. It's k, npnp. yeah just realized the implications for ST if they don't join PL....imagining startale fading into some background team that I vaguely remember existing, but don't know who the players are. Life had better keep things up Thats because the news of blizzard suing BW tournaments shocked me to hell. Up to that point I was sympathetic to Blizzard trying to get into Korean Esports. After that, everything blizzard has been saying up to that point has been dispelled as fake. Blizzards official reasoning of why they sue BW? Because BW is competing with SC2. What happened to wanting to promote esports better in korea? It has nothing to do with BW competing with SC2. It was about protecting their trademarks and copyrights to the story, art, characters and world of SC2. Copyright and trademark laws require the the holder defend their copyrights and trademarks to keep them. Blizzard had to go to court to confirm that they held the rights to all of SC2, or they risked losing it. Thats wrong. Blizzard suit was about BW tournaments being detrimental to SC2 thus seeks damages and injunction against holding BW tournaments. The suit was seeking an injunction to stop the BW tournaments. And damages due to detriment to SC2. NOT a declaration of copyright and trademarks (It was never disputed by Kespa). Please get your facts straight before posting nonsense. Kespa even used to charge for Starcraft broadcasting licenses within Korea (= making money with Blizzard IP without paying anything to them), which was one of the causes for the original law suit. Of course it got more prominent when SC2 was released and this was when Blizzard really started to push the charges, because, like Plansix said, they needed to do that to keep their trademark claims for the new game. Blizzard certainly could have and should have handled the transition to SC2 more smoothly, but acting as if Kespa did everything right back then is just silly.
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cannot say i am terribly surprised, writing's been on the wall for months.
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On January 29 2014 01:47 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On January 29 2014 01:41 Kheve wrote:On January 29 2014 01:39 Plansix wrote:On January 29 2014 01:30 Kheve wrote:On January 29 2014 01:16 xAdra wrote:Kheve writes some pretty decent arguments but it's quite clearly biased against everything about Blizzard and what they stand for, while everything Kespa does is unquestionably good. On January 28 2014 23:58 VisonKai wrote: Since StarTale isn't in Proleague, Life will just have to win every GSL this year to keep up the exposure. It's k, npnp. yeah just realized the implications for ST if they don't join PL....imagining startale fading into some background team that I vaguely remember existing, but don't know who the players are. Life had better keep things up Thats because the news of blizzard suing BW tournaments shocked me to hell. Up to that point I was sympathetic to Blizzard trying to get into Korean Esports. After that, everything blizzard has been saying up to that point has been dispelled as fake. Blizzards official reasoning of why they sue BW? Because BW is competing with SC2. What happened to wanting to promote esports better in korea? It has nothing to do with BW competing with SC2. It was about protecting their trademarks and copyrights to the story, art, characters and world of SC2. Copyright and trademark laws require the the holder defend their copyrights and trademarks to keep them. Blizzard had to go to court to confirm that they held the rights to all of SC2, or they risked losing it. Thats wrong. Blizzard suit was about BW tournaments being detrimental to SC2 thus seeks damages and injunction against holding BW tournaments. The suit was seeking an injunction to stop the BW tournaments. And damages due to detriment to SC2. NOT a declaration of copyright and trademarks (It was never disputed by Kespa). Yes, it was to confirm that Blizzard held the right to decide who broadcast SC2. If they didn't sue, they would lose the right to decide who broadcast SC2. It's a defend to or lose it system.
No you are wrong. The cause of action (the legal basis) for the suit was that BW was detrimental to SC2. Thus Blizzard seek an injunction against BW tournaments being held plus damages for SC2 losses. Kespa never hold SC2 tournaments. At that point in time, Kespa doesnt care about SC2.
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I'm going to ignore all the posts about teams that were in esf disbanding, and just say that it kind of had to happen. The division between kespa and esf didn't help anyone
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Get your facts right.
Blizzard knows their copyright and ip was NOT violated by kespa. Kespa never reproduced blizzard products. Never claim to be blizzard. Never claim to be holding tournaments in Blizzards name. Thus there was virtually nothing blizzard can do to claim from Kespa.
The only basis finally was that BW tournaments was in detriment to SC2.
In the advert example where a BMW owner rents out his car for a commercial shoot, IF the advert uses the car in such a way that is detriment to BMW then yes BMW can sue (though wat sort of situation it might succeed depends on the law). The fee for using the BMW for the advert nevertheless belongs to the car OWNER.
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On January 29 2014 02:05 Kheve wrote:Show nested quote +On January 29 2014 01:47 Plansix wrote:On January 29 2014 01:41 Kheve wrote:On January 29 2014 01:39 Plansix wrote:On January 29 2014 01:30 Kheve wrote:On January 29 2014 01:16 xAdra wrote:Kheve writes some pretty decent arguments but it's quite clearly biased against everything about Blizzard and what they stand for, while everything Kespa does is unquestionably good. On January 28 2014 23:58 VisonKai wrote: Since StarTale isn't in Proleague, Life will just have to win every GSL this year to keep up the exposure. It's k, npnp. yeah just realized the implications for ST if they don't join PL....imagining startale fading into some background team that I vaguely remember existing, but don't know who the players are. Life had better keep things up Thats because the news of blizzard suing BW tournaments shocked me to hell. Up to that point I was sympathetic to Blizzard trying to get into Korean Esports. After that, everything blizzard has been saying up to that point has been dispelled as fake. Blizzards official reasoning of why they sue BW? Because BW is competing with SC2. What happened to wanting to promote esports better in korea? It has nothing to do with BW competing with SC2. It was about protecting their trademarks and copyrights to the story, art, characters and world of SC2. Copyright and trademark laws require the the holder defend their copyrights and trademarks to keep them. Blizzard had to go to court to confirm that they held the rights to all of SC2, or they risked losing it. Thats wrong. Blizzard suit was about BW tournaments being detrimental to SC2 thus seeks damages and injunction against holding BW tournaments. The suit was seeking an injunction to stop the BW tournaments. And damages due to detriment to SC2. NOT a declaration of copyright and trademarks (It was never disputed by Kespa). Yes, it was to confirm that Blizzard held the right to decide who broadcast SC2. If they didn't sue, they would lose the right to decide who broadcast SC2. It's a defend to or lose it system. No you are wrong. The cause of action (the legal basis) for the suit was that BW was detrimental to SC2. Thus Blizzard seek an injunction against BW tournaments being held plus damages for SC2 losses. Kespa never hold SC2 tournaments. At that point in time, Kespa doesnt care about SC2. If you do a google search for "Blizzard sues Kespa" the first two articles say and quote Blizzard as only caring about their trademarks, copyrights and confirming that SC2 was not public domain. You really need to read up on the subject, rather than spouting nonsense.
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On January 29 2014 01:49 ACrow wrote:Show nested quote +On January 29 2014 01:41 Kheve wrote:On January 29 2014 01:39 Plansix wrote:On January 29 2014 01:30 Kheve wrote:On January 29 2014 01:16 xAdra wrote:Kheve writes some pretty decent arguments but it's quite clearly biased against everything about Blizzard and what they stand for, while everything Kespa does is unquestionably good. On January 28 2014 23:58 VisonKai wrote: Since StarTale isn't in Proleague, Life will just have to win every GSL this year to keep up the exposure. It's k, npnp. yeah just realized the implications for ST if they don't join PL....imagining startale fading into some background team that I vaguely remember existing, but don't know who the players are. Life had better keep things up Thats because the news of blizzard suing BW tournaments shocked me to hell. Up to that point I was sympathetic to Blizzard trying to get into Korean Esports. After that, everything blizzard has been saying up to that point has been dispelled as fake. Blizzards official reasoning of why they sue BW? Because BW is competing with SC2. What happened to wanting to promote esports better in korea? It has nothing to do with BW competing with SC2. It was about protecting their trademarks and copyrights to the story, art, characters and world of SC2. Copyright and trademark laws require the the holder defend their copyrights and trademarks to keep them. Blizzard had to go to court to confirm that they held the rights to all of SC2, or they risked losing it. Thats wrong. Blizzard suit was about BW tournaments being detrimental to SC2 thus seeks damages and injunction against holding BW tournaments. The suit was seeking an injunction to stop the BW tournaments. And damages due to detriment to SC2. NOT a declaration of copyright and trademarks (It was never disputed by Kespa). Please get your facts straight before posting nonsense. Kespa even used to charge for Starcraft broadcasting licenses within Korea (= making money with Blizzard IP without paying anything to them), which was one of the causes for the original law suit. Of course it got more prominent when SC2 was released and this was when Blizzard really started to push the charges, because, like Plansix said, they needed to do that to keep their trademark claims for the new game. Blizzard certainly could have and should have handled the transition to SC2 more smoothly, but acting as if Kespa did everything right back then is just silly.
Thats where you are wrong. Like i said. In advertising renting a car for a commercial shoot is very common. The owner of the BMW holds the rights to renting out the car to the producers. This is undisputed.
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Hooray, KeSPA!
Consolidation to a more stable and venerated organization ftw.
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not sure what this actually means (if it really means anything?)
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On January 29 2014 02:16 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On January 29 2014 02:05 Kheve wrote:On January 29 2014 01:47 Plansix wrote:On January 29 2014 01:41 Kheve wrote:On January 29 2014 01:39 Plansix wrote:On January 29 2014 01:30 Kheve wrote:On January 29 2014 01:16 xAdra wrote:Kheve writes some pretty decent arguments but it's quite clearly biased against everything about Blizzard and what they stand for, while everything Kespa does is unquestionably good. On January 28 2014 23:58 VisonKai wrote: Since StarTale isn't in Proleague, Life will just have to win every GSL this year to keep up the exposure. It's k, npnp. yeah just realized the implications for ST if they don't join PL....imagining startale fading into some background team that I vaguely remember existing, but don't know who the players are. Life had better keep things up Thats because the news of blizzard suing BW tournaments shocked me to hell. Up to that point I was sympathetic to Blizzard trying to get into Korean Esports. After that, everything blizzard has been saying up to that point has been dispelled as fake. Blizzards official reasoning of why they sue BW? Because BW is competing with SC2. What happened to wanting to promote esports better in korea? It has nothing to do with BW competing with SC2. It was about protecting their trademarks and copyrights to the story, art, characters and world of SC2. Copyright and trademark laws require the the holder defend their copyrights and trademarks to keep them. Blizzard had to go to court to confirm that they held the rights to all of SC2, or they risked losing it. Thats wrong. Blizzard suit was about BW tournaments being detrimental to SC2 thus seeks damages and injunction against holding BW tournaments. The suit was seeking an injunction to stop the BW tournaments. And damages due to detriment to SC2. NOT a declaration of copyright and trademarks (It was never disputed by Kespa). Yes, it was to confirm that Blizzard held the right to decide who broadcast SC2. If they didn't sue, they would lose the right to decide who broadcast SC2. It's a defend to or lose it system. No you are wrong. The cause of action (the legal basis) for the suit was that BW was detrimental to SC2. Thus Blizzard seek an injunction against BW tournaments being held plus damages for SC2 losses. Kespa never hold SC2 tournaments. At that point in time, Kespa doesnt care about SC2. If you do a google search for "Blizzard sues Kespa" the first two articles say and quote Blizzard as only caring about their trademarks, copyrights and confirming that SC2 was not public domain. You really need to read up on the subject, rather than spouting nonsense.
Read the articles properly. Blizzard sues Kespa because they claim to have signed away the rights to GomTV to broadcast. What right is this? Copyright and trademarks laws are very clear cut. No violation of copyright was ever mentioned. The right to broadcast was signed many years after BW and there is no such rights in law concerning such issues. The only law they can use is copyright and trademarks. In which the law is very clear, the owners of the product holds the rights to the fees collected for that product he owns. Unless there is a detriment to the copyright holder, the holder is unable to stop the commercial from going on. Even if there is a detriment, the commercial MAY be stopped but the fee collected BELONGS to the owner.
The cause of action IS that BW tournaments are held to the detriment of blizzard SC2. Thus they can apply for an injunction to stop it and seek damages.
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On January 29 2014 02:25 Kheve wrote:Show nested quote +On January 29 2014 02:16 Plansix wrote:On January 29 2014 02:05 Kheve wrote:On January 29 2014 01:47 Plansix wrote:On January 29 2014 01:41 Kheve wrote:On January 29 2014 01:39 Plansix wrote:On January 29 2014 01:30 Kheve wrote:On January 29 2014 01:16 xAdra wrote:Kheve writes some pretty decent arguments but it's quite clearly biased against everything about Blizzard and what they stand for, while everything Kespa does is unquestionably good. On January 28 2014 23:58 VisonKai wrote: Since StarTale isn't in Proleague, Life will just have to win every GSL this year to keep up the exposure. It's k, npnp. yeah just realized the implications for ST if they don't join PL....imagining startale fading into some background team that I vaguely remember existing, but don't know who the players are. Life had better keep things up Thats because the news of blizzard suing BW tournaments shocked me to hell. Up to that point I was sympathetic to Blizzard trying to get into Korean Esports. After that, everything blizzard has been saying up to that point has been dispelled as fake. Blizzards official reasoning of why they sue BW? Because BW is competing with SC2. What happened to wanting to promote esports better in korea? It has nothing to do with BW competing with SC2. It was about protecting their trademarks and copyrights to the story, art, characters and world of SC2. Copyright and trademark laws require the the holder defend their copyrights and trademarks to keep them. Blizzard had to go to court to confirm that they held the rights to all of SC2, or they risked losing it. Thats wrong. Blizzard suit was about BW tournaments being detrimental to SC2 thus seeks damages and injunction against holding BW tournaments. The suit was seeking an injunction to stop the BW tournaments. And damages due to detriment to SC2. NOT a declaration of copyright and trademarks (It was never disputed by Kespa). Yes, it was to confirm that Blizzard held the right to decide who broadcast SC2. If they didn't sue, they would lose the right to decide who broadcast SC2. It's a defend to or lose it system. No you are wrong. The cause of action (the legal basis) for the suit was that BW was detrimental to SC2. Thus Blizzard seek an injunction against BW tournaments being held plus damages for SC2 losses. Kespa never hold SC2 tournaments. At that point in time, Kespa doesnt care about SC2. If you do a google search for "Blizzard sues Kespa" the first two articles say and quote Blizzard as only caring about their trademarks, copyrights and confirming that SC2 was not public domain. You really need to read up on the subject, rather than spouting nonsense. Read the articles properly. Blizzard sues Kespa because they claim to have signed away the rights to GomTV to broadcast. What right is this? Copyright and trademarks laws are very clear cut. No violation of copyright was ever mentioned. The right to broadcast was signed many years after BW and there is no such rights in law concerning such issues. The only law they can use is copyright and trademarks. In which the law is very clear, the owners of the product holds the rights to the fees collected for that product he owns. Unless there is a detriment to the copyright holder, the holder is unable to stop the commercial from going on. Even if there is a detriment, the commercial MAY be stopped but the fee collected BELONGS to the owner. The cause of action IS that BW tournaments are held to the detriment of blizzard SC2. Thus they can apply for an injunction to stop it and seek damages. All right, I think we all need to accept that you dot understand how copyright laws work or that the holder of the copyright must defend it or lose it. Good day sir.
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On January 29 2014 02:29 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On January 29 2014 02:25 Kheve wrote:On January 29 2014 02:16 Plansix wrote:On January 29 2014 02:05 Kheve wrote:On January 29 2014 01:47 Plansix wrote:On January 29 2014 01:41 Kheve wrote:On January 29 2014 01:39 Plansix wrote:On January 29 2014 01:30 Kheve wrote:On January 29 2014 01:16 xAdra wrote:Kheve writes some pretty decent arguments but it's quite clearly biased against everything about Blizzard and what they stand for, while everything Kespa does is unquestionably good. On January 28 2014 23:58 VisonKai wrote: Since StarTale isn't in Proleague, Life will just have to win every GSL this year to keep up the exposure. It's k, npnp. yeah just realized the implications for ST if they don't join PL....imagining startale fading into some background team that I vaguely remember existing, but don't know who the players are. Life had better keep things up Thats because the news of blizzard suing BW tournaments shocked me to hell. Up to that point I was sympathetic to Blizzard trying to get into Korean Esports. After that, everything blizzard has been saying up to that point has been dispelled as fake. Blizzards official reasoning of why they sue BW? Because BW is competing with SC2. What happened to wanting to promote esports better in korea? It has nothing to do with BW competing with SC2. It was about protecting their trademarks and copyrights to the story, art, characters and world of SC2. Copyright and trademark laws require the the holder defend their copyrights and trademarks to keep them. Blizzard had to go to court to confirm that they held the rights to all of SC2, or they risked losing it. Thats wrong. Blizzard suit was about BW tournaments being detrimental to SC2 thus seeks damages and injunction against holding BW tournaments. The suit was seeking an injunction to stop the BW tournaments. And damages due to detriment to SC2. NOT a declaration of copyright and trademarks (It was never disputed by Kespa). Yes, it was to confirm that Blizzard held the right to decide who broadcast SC2. If they didn't sue, they would lose the right to decide who broadcast SC2. It's a defend to or lose it system. No you are wrong. The cause of action (the legal basis) for the suit was that BW was detrimental to SC2. Thus Blizzard seek an injunction against BW tournaments being held plus damages for SC2 losses. Kespa never hold SC2 tournaments. At that point in time, Kespa doesnt care about SC2. If you do a google search for "Blizzard sues Kespa" the first two articles say and quote Blizzard as only caring about their trademarks, copyrights and confirming that SC2 was not public domain. You really need to read up on the subject, rather than spouting nonsense. Read the articles properly. Blizzard sues Kespa because they claim to have signed away the rights to GomTV to broadcast. What right is this? Copyright and trademarks laws are very clear cut. No violation of copyright was ever mentioned. The right to broadcast was signed many years after BW and there is no such rights in law concerning such issues. The only law they can use is copyright and trademarks. In which the law is very clear, the owners of the product holds the rights to the fees collected for that product he owns. Unless there is a detriment to the copyright holder, the holder is unable to stop the commercial from going on. Even if there is a detriment, the commercial MAY be stopped but the fee collected BELONGS to the owner. The cause of action IS that BW tournaments are held to the detriment of blizzard SC2. Thus they can apply for an injunction to stop it and seek damages. All right, I think we all need to accept that you dot understand how copyright laws work or that the holder of the copyright must defend it or lose it. Good day sir.
I have LLB qualifications though I do not practice. I'm certainly well versed on points of law I assure you.
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Also all the exclusive rights were so much bullshit anyway. Imagine someone somewhere would be giving exclusive licenses to broadcast ALL of hockey or football or basketball or fucking chess... All those games (because that's what they are afterall) were created by someone somewhere, but the broadcasting licenses (or any licenses for that matter) belong to the creators of leagues, not creators of that game...
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Startale in proleague would be awesome!
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On January 29 2014 02:16 Plansix wrote: You really need to read up on the subject, rather than spouting nonsense.
That should apply to you. From what kheve is saying looks like he was reading about the subject as it was actually happening back in the day. Don't use google, the sites it brings are only taking on what blizzard told them about and didn't bother to contact the other side and have the two sides of the story because of the language barrier. Instead look on TL for milkis updates and translations about the whole issue.
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On January 29 2014 02:37 Golondrin wrote:Show nested quote +On January 29 2014 02:16 Plansix wrote: You really need to read up on the subject, rather than spouting nonsense. That should apply to you. From what kheve is saying looks like he was reading about the subject as it was actually happening back in the day. Don't use google, the sites it brings are only taking on what blizzard told them about and didn't bother to contact the other side and have the two sides of the story because of the language barrier. Instead look on TL for milkis updates and translations about the whole issue. Wait, so I should trade one bias point of view for another? I think I will form my own opinion on the subject by listening to everything and then deciding which is correct.
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On January 29 2014 02:37 Golondrin wrote:Show nested quote +On January 29 2014 02:16 Plansix wrote: You really need to read up on the subject, rather than spouting nonsense. That should apply to you. From what kheve is saying looks like he was reading about the subject as it was actually happening back in the day. Don't use google, the sites it brings are only taking on what blizzard told them about and didn't bother to contact the other side and have the two sides of the story because of the language barrier. Instead look on TL for milkis updates and translations about the whole issue.
Thanks. Im not trying claim blizzard is devil incarnate. But I am trying to set some facts out straight to those who gets even the facts wrong. Blizzard cause of action was that BW tournaments was to the detriment of SC2 thus seeking an injunction against Kespa holding BW tournaments and damages from Kespa.
As for plainsix, he is entitled to his opinion like everyone else. But I just wish he gets the facts right at least and not base his opinions on wrong facts.
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On January 29 2014 02:53 Kheve wrote:Show nested quote +On January 29 2014 02:37 Golondrin wrote:On January 29 2014 02:16 Plansix wrote: You really need to read up on the subject, rather than spouting nonsense. That should apply to you. From what kheve is saying looks like he was reading about the subject as it was actually happening back in the day. Don't use google, the sites it brings are only taking on what blizzard told them about and didn't bother to contact the other side and have the two sides of the story because of the language barrier. Instead look on TL for milkis updates and translations about the whole issue. Thanks. Im not trying claim blizzard is devil incarnate. But I am trying to set some facts out straight to those who gets even the facts wrong. Blizzard cause of action was that BW tournaments was to the detriment of SC2 thus seeking an injunction against Kespa holding BW tournaments and damages from Kespa. As for plainsix, he is entitled to his opinion like everyone else. But I just wish he gets the facts right at least and not base his opinions on wrong facts. Blizzards internal reasoning for bringing the lawsuit are not known fact. You think it's to stop BW events and I think it was to secure broadcast rights and protect their IP. Both were things that could have happened during the law suit. You can't just declare that only one half of that mattered.
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On January 29 2014 02:35 Ammanas wrote: Also all the exclusive rights were so much bullshit anyway. Imagine someone somewhere would be giving exclusive licenses to broadcast ALL of hockey or football or basketball or fucking chess... All those games (because that's what they are afterall) were created by someone somewhere, but the broadcasting licenses (or any licenses for that matter) belong to the creators of leagues, not creators of that game...
Hate to tell you this, but the rights to broadcast all those sports ARE exclusive. in the UK, until 3 years ago, only Sky Sports could broadcast live Premiership matches, everyone else could only show highlights and they all had to state "Video courtesy of Sky Sports". In most countries, the rights to broadcast sporting events are exactly exclusive, thats how they make money selling the rights and how companies recoup money from advertising, if you want to watch X sport, you have to watch it on X channel.
It might not be that way in the US, but I'd bet that there is one organisation, maybe 2, that have the rights to broadcast live american football, hockey, baseball and that they sub-let the rights to other companies within each state, or they simply broadcast on their syndicated networks.
If you want to broadcast a sport, you have to pay their sporting board for the rights, wanna broadcast English football? Gotta pay the English FA. Wanna broadcast snooker? gotta pay the World Snooker Association. Wanna broadcast live snowboarding? Gotta pay the World Snowboard Association. Notice a pattern yet?
Someone holds the rights to everything you see on TV and someone else had to pay for the right to broadcast it. If we knew exactly who created Soccer, I promise you that person would claim the rights to it and you would have to pay them instead of the FA or whomever, more liekly the FA would have to pay that person, then they would sell on the rights to Sky Sports etc.
but in the case of Kespa vs Blizzard, Blizzard were the appropriate holder of any rights to Starcraft or Starcraft 2. All the sports u mentioned were being broadcast long before IP laws went in to effect, if a new sport was invented tomorrow, and one person, collection of people or company could prove they created it, they could easily trademark the game and have exclusive rights to its use. Board games work this way, everything else works this way, so why should an eSport be any different? The company who make the game have all the rights to its use and rightly so.
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On January 29 2014 03:01 emythrel wrote:Show nested quote +On January 29 2014 02:35 Ammanas wrote: Also all the exclusive rights were so much bullshit anyway. Imagine someone somewhere would be giving exclusive licenses to broadcast ALL of hockey or football or basketball or fucking chess... All those games (because that's what they are afterall) were created by someone somewhere, but the broadcasting licenses (or any licenses for that matter) belong to the creators of leagues, not creators of that game... Hate to tell you this, but the rights to broadcast all those sports ARE exclusive. in the UK, until 3 years ago, only Sky Sports could broadcast live Premiership matches, everyone else could only show highlights and they all had to state "Video courtesy of Sky Sports". In most countries, the rights to broadcast sporting events are exactly exclusive, thats how they make money selling the rights and how companies recoup money from advertising, if you want to watch X sport, you have to watch it on X channel. It might not be that way in the US, but I'd bet that there is one organisation, maybe 2, that have the rights to broadcast live american football, hockey, baseball and that they sub-let the rights to other companies within each state, or they simply broadcast on their syndicated networks. If you want to broadcast a sport, you have to pay their sporting board for the rights, wanna broadcast English football? Gotta pay the English FA. Wanna broadcast snooker? gotta pay the World Snooker Association. Wanna broadcast live snowboarding? Gotta pay the World Snowboard Association. Notice a pattern yet? Someone holds the rights to everything you see on TV and someone else had to pay for the right to broadcast it. If we knew exactly who created Soccer, I promise you that person would claim the rights to it and you would have to pay them instead of the FA or whomever, more liekly the FA would have to pay that person, then they would sell on the rights to Sky Sports etc. but in the case of Kespa vs Blizzard, Blizzard were the appropriate holder of any rights to Starcraft or Starcraft 2 The thing is, it was PREMIERSHIP who sold those rights. Not the person who created football, their heir or FIFA. It was the league. Same for Kespa - they create league, they can give the rights to broadcast to anyone. The sport creator shouldn't hold the rights for broadcast of said sport everywhere in the world, the leagues should. And they always are.
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On January 29 2014 02:59 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On January 29 2014 02:53 Kheve wrote:On January 29 2014 02:37 Golondrin wrote:On January 29 2014 02:16 Plansix wrote: You really need to read up on the subject, rather than spouting nonsense. That should apply to you. From what kheve is saying looks like he was reading about the subject as it was actually happening back in the day. Don't use google, the sites it brings are only taking on what blizzard told them about and didn't bother to contact the other side and have the two sides of the story because of the language barrier. Instead look on TL for milkis updates and translations about the whole issue. Thanks. Im not trying claim blizzard is devil incarnate. But I am trying to set some facts out straight to those who gets even the facts wrong. Blizzard cause of action was that BW tournaments was to the detriment of SC2 thus seeking an injunction against Kespa holding BW tournaments and damages from Kespa. As for plainsix, he is entitled to his opinion like everyone else. But I just wish he gets the facts right at least and not base his opinions on wrong facts. Blizzards internal reasoning for bringing the lawsuit are not known fact. You think it's to stop BW events and I think it was to secure broadcast rights and protect their IP. Both were things that could have happened during the law suit. You can't just declare that only one half of that mattered.
Cause of action is the legal basis (Ive already mentioned it when I first brought up this term). If I sue under contract law for breach of contract, my cause of action would go X actions breach Y terms of the contract causing me damages, thus I ask for damages or specific performance (a type of judgement to compel the defendant to do something). That would be my cause of action. Lots of details involved (is the defendant the correct party, terms constant, interpretation of the terms, causation, actual damage assessment etc).
Cause of action is the legal term of the writs contents. It has to be specific concise otherwise the court will throw it out. Blizzard internal/public reasoning does not come into play at all. It is what is claims to the courts.
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On January 29 2014 03:11 Ammanas wrote:Show nested quote +On January 29 2014 03:01 emythrel wrote:On January 29 2014 02:35 Ammanas wrote: Also all the exclusive rights were so much bullshit anyway. Imagine someone somewhere would be giving exclusive licenses to broadcast ALL of hockey or football or basketball or fucking chess... All those games (because that's what they are afterall) were created by someone somewhere, but the broadcasting licenses (or any licenses for that matter) belong to the creators of leagues, not creators of that game... Hate to tell you this, but the rights to broadcast all those sports ARE exclusive. in the UK, until 3 years ago, only Sky Sports could broadcast live Premiership matches, everyone else could only show highlights and they all had to state "Video courtesy of Sky Sports". In most countries, the rights to broadcast sporting events are exactly exclusive, thats how they make money selling the rights and how companies recoup money from advertising, if you want to watch X sport, you have to watch it on X channel. It might not be that way in the US, but I'd bet that there is one organisation, maybe 2, that have the rights to broadcast live american football, hockey, baseball and that they sub-let the rights to other companies within each state, or they simply broadcast on their syndicated networks. If you want to broadcast a sport, you have to pay their sporting board for the rights, wanna broadcast English football? Gotta pay the English FA. Wanna broadcast snooker? gotta pay the World Snooker Association. Wanna broadcast live snowboarding? Gotta pay the World Snowboard Association. Notice a pattern yet? Someone holds the rights to everything you see on TV and someone else had to pay for the right to broadcast it. If we knew exactly who created Soccer, I promise you that person would claim the rights to it and you would have to pay them instead of the FA or whomever, more liekly the FA would have to pay that person, then they would sell on the rights to Sky Sports etc. but in the case of Kespa vs Blizzard, Blizzard were the appropriate holder of any rights to Starcraft or Starcraft 2 The thing is, it was PREMIERSHIP who sold those rights. Not the person who created football, their heir or FIFA. It was the league. Same for Kespa - they create league, they can give the rights to broadcast to anyone. The sport creator shouldn't hold the rights for broadcast of said sport everywhere in the world, the leagues should. And they always are. Starcraft is not a foot ball or soccer ball. It is the ball and field you play on, and blizzard up keeps the rule book. Blizzard can own the broadcast rights to the game they made, just like a band has the broadcast rights to all their songs.
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On January 29 2014 03:16 Kheve wrote:Show nested quote +On January 29 2014 02:59 Plansix wrote:On January 29 2014 02:53 Kheve wrote:On January 29 2014 02:37 Golondrin wrote:On January 29 2014 02:16 Plansix wrote: You really need to read up on the subject, rather than spouting nonsense. That should apply to you. From what kheve is saying looks like he was reading about the subject as it was actually happening back in the day. Don't use google, the sites it brings are only taking on what blizzard told them about and didn't bother to contact the other side and have the two sides of the story because of the language barrier. Instead look on TL for milkis updates and translations about the whole issue. Thanks. Im not trying claim blizzard is devil incarnate. But I am trying to set some facts out straight to those who gets even the facts wrong. Blizzard cause of action was that BW tournaments was to the detriment of SC2 thus seeking an injunction against Kespa holding BW tournaments and damages from Kespa. As for plainsix, he is entitled to his opinion like everyone else. But I just wish he gets the facts right at least and not base his opinions on wrong facts. Blizzards internal reasoning for bringing the lawsuit are not known fact. You think it's to stop BW events and I think it was to secure broadcast rights and protect their IP. Both were things that could have happened during the law suit. You can't just declare that only one half of that mattered. Cause of action is the legal basis (Ive already mentioned it when I first brought up this term). If I sue under contract law for breach of contract, my cause of action would go X actions breach Y terms of the contract causing me damages, thus I ask for damages or specific performance (a type of judgement to compel the defendant to do something). That would be my cause of action. Lots of details involved (is the defendant the correct party, terms constant, interpretation of the terms, causation, actual damage assessment etc). Cause of action is the legal term of the writs contents. It has to be specific concise otherwise the court will throw it out. Blizzard internal/public reasoning does not come into play at all. It is what is claims to the courts. How does that prove me wrong again? At the end if the case blizzard got the broadcast rights and didn't get damages. And I work in law, I know that you have to ask for everything you are seeking upfront, even if you don't plan seeking everything you asked for.
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On January 29 2014 03:01 emythrel wrote:Show nested quote +On January 29 2014 02:35 Ammanas wrote: Also all the exclusive rights were so much bullshit anyway. Imagine someone somewhere would be giving exclusive licenses to broadcast ALL of hockey or football or basketball or fucking chess... All those games (because that's what they are afterall) were created by someone somewhere, but the broadcasting licenses (or any licenses for that matter) belong to the creators of leagues, not creators of that game... but in the case of Kespa vs Blizzard, Blizzard were the appropriate holder of any rights to Starcraft or Starcraft 2. All the sports u mentioned were being broadcast long before IP laws went in to effect, if a new sport was invented tomorrow, and one person, collection of people or company could prove they created it, they could easily trademark the game and have exclusive rights to its use. Board games work this way, everything else works this way, so why should an eSport be any different? The company who make the game have all the rights to its use and rightly so.
Thats where you are wrong. IP have fair use policy. Furthermore once its not in your server, it then becomes a copyright or trademark issue (your best bet to sue cause its the easier one to prove). Also in sc case, all previous iteration of broadcast right lies with the organisers. A game makers best bet has always been copyright and trademark. Anyone who makes a game similar to any existing boardgame (watch genius2) so long as it is not replicating it, claiming to be it or profit from being assumed it is it is not an infringement. Unless ofc you can prove that such is to your detriment.
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On January 29 2014 03:19 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On January 29 2014 03:11 Ammanas wrote:On January 29 2014 03:01 emythrel wrote:On January 29 2014 02:35 Ammanas wrote: Also all the exclusive rights were so much bullshit anyway. Imagine someone somewhere would be giving exclusive licenses to broadcast ALL of hockey or football or basketball or fucking chess... All those games (because that's what they are afterall) were created by someone somewhere, but the broadcasting licenses (or any licenses for that matter) belong to the creators of leagues, not creators of that game... Hate to tell you this, but the rights to broadcast all those sports ARE exclusive. in the UK, until 3 years ago, only Sky Sports could broadcast live Premiership matches, everyone else could only show highlights and they all had to state "Video courtesy of Sky Sports". In most countries, the rights to broadcast sporting events are exactly exclusive, thats how they make money selling the rights and how companies recoup money from advertising, if you want to watch X sport, you have to watch it on X channel. It might not be that way in the US, but I'd bet that there is one organisation, maybe 2, that have the rights to broadcast live american football, hockey, baseball and that they sub-let the rights to other companies within each state, or they simply broadcast on their syndicated networks. If you want to broadcast a sport, you have to pay their sporting board for the rights, wanna broadcast English football? Gotta pay the English FA. Wanna broadcast snooker? gotta pay the World Snooker Association. Wanna broadcast live snowboarding? Gotta pay the World Snowboard Association. Notice a pattern yet? Someone holds the rights to everything you see on TV and someone else had to pay for the right to broadcast it. If we knew exactly who created Soccer, I promise you that person would claim the rights to it and you would have to pay them instead of the FA or whomever, more liekly the FA would have to pay that person, then they would sell on the rights to Sky Sports etc. but in the case of Kespa vs Blizzard, Blizzard were the appropriate holder of any rights to Starcraft or Starcraft 2 The thing is, it was PREMIERSHIP who sold those rights. Not the person who created football, their heir or FIFA. It was the league. Same for Kespa - they create league, they can give the rights to broadcast to anyone. The sport creator shouldn't hold the rights for broadcast of said sport everywhere in the world, the leagues should. And they always are. Starcraft is not a foot ball or soccer ball. It is the ball and field you play on, and blizzard up keeps the rule book. Blizzard can own the broadcast rights to the game they made, just like a band has the broadcast rights to all their songs. And now we are in gray area. I believe there is no law about something this. I mean.. Chess is a 1v1 game, like Starcraft. Surely there is someone who have created it (or their heir) or some company who created the modern rules for it. The game turns into competitive 'sport' which people are watching. Does that mean those abovementioned people should be able to give exclusive broadcasting rights for ALL chess events ever done in (for example) Russia? Shouldn't it be the creators of league itself? We know how it works in real sports, why should it work differently in esports?
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On January 29 2014 03:11 Ammanas wrote:Show nested quote +On January 29 2014 03:01 emythrel wrote:On January 29 2014 02:35 Ammanas wrote: Also all the exclusive rights were so much bullshit anyway. Imagine someone somewhere would be giving exclusive licenses to broadcast ALL of hockey or football or basketball or fucking chess... All those games (because that's what they are afterall) were created by someone somewhere, but the broadcasting licenses (or any licenses for that matter) belong to the creators of leagues, not creators of that game... Hate to tell you this, but the rights to broadcast all those sports ARE exclusive. in the UK, until 3 years ago, only Sky Sports could broadcast live Premiership matches, everyone else could only show highlights and they all had to state "Video courtesy of Sky Sports". In most countries, the rights to broadcast sporting events are exactly exclusive, thats how they make money selling the rights and how companies recoup money from advertising, if you want to watch X sport, you have to watch it on X channel. It might not be that way in the US, but I'd bet that there is one organisation, maybe 2, that have the rights to broadcast live american football, hockey, baseball and that they sub-let the rights to other companies within each state, or they simply broadcast on their syndicated networks. If you want to broadcast a sport, you have to pay their sporting board for the rights, wanna broadcast English football? Gotta pay the English FA. Wanna broadcast snooker? gotta pay the World Snooker Association. Wanna broadcast live snowboarding? Gotta pay the World Snowboard Association. Notice a pattern yet? Someone holds the rights to everything you see on TV and someone else had to pay for the right to broadcast it. If we knew exactly who created Soccer, I promise you that person would claim the rights to it and you would have to pay them instead of the FA or whomever, more liekly the FA would have to pay that person, then they would sell on the rights to Sky Sports etc. but in the case of Kespa vs Blizzard, Blizzard were the appropriate holder of any rights to Starcraft or Starcraft 2 The thing is, it was PREMIERSHIP who sold those rights. Not the person who created football, their heir or FIFA. It was the league. Same for Kespa - they create league, they can give the rights to broadcast to anyone. The sport creator shouldn't hold the rights for broadcast of said sport everywhere in the world, the leagues should. And they always are.
If football were invented today, that wouldn't be the case. We don't know who invented football, even if we did, the laws protecting IP didn't exist when it was invented so it wouldn't matter. Any new sport would have the same protections that Starcraft does. The rights to broadcast most sports belong the the governing body of that sport, not the league. The FA does not run the non professional leagues but you have to pay licencing fees to them to have your team accredited, if you want to form your own league you have to pay for the rights to the FA. Its not the league creators at all that hold the rights, its just that most professional leagues are run by the governing body.
If you want to have Deal or no Deal on TV in your country, you have to pay for the rights from whomever holds them, that might not be the person who created it, but the person who created the show sold the rights to a TV company usually, who can then sell them on to someone else, but they have to give a percentage to the original creator in most cases.
Starcraft is a game, a trademarked game, therefore if you use its content in a direct fashion like SC2 is used, and you make money from that, you have to pay Blizzard. That is as it should be. Modern Soccer, Rugby, Baseball etc are significantly different from their original forms, if you could find the guy who first picked up the ball and ran with it (How rugby was "created") you would have no right to claim the modern game of Rugby as yours, it would be so vastly different in the centuries between, however what Kespa were broadcasting was Blizzards property, pretty much exactly how they designed it, and they didn't even show a logo with Blizzard on it until they were forced to!
Anyone who tries to defend Kespa for not paying Blizzard to broadcast their game simply is living in a world where the creators of content are obviously not worthy of note. A songwriter has the rights to the broadcast of their music, an author has the rights to the reproduction of their writing, Movie studios have the rights to all films made by them, why should games be any different? They might not have been using BW as it was originally intended (simply as a game) but they were making money from it and not paying Blizzard for the privilege and that is wrong. Blizzard have every right to be paid when you use their work to make money for yourself, that is how everything else in the world works.
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On January 29 2014 03:24 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On January 29 2014 03:16 Kheve wrote:On January 29 2014 02:59 Plansix wrote:On January 29 2014 02:53 Kheve wrote:On January 29 2014 02:37 Golondrin wrote:On January 29 2014 02:16 Plansix wrote: You really need to read up on the subject, rather than spouting nonsense. That should apply to you. From what kheve is saying looks like he was reading about the subject as it was actually happening back in the day. Don't use google, the sites it brings are only taking on what blizzard told them about and didn't bother to contact the other side and have the two sides of the story because of the language barrier. Instead look on TL for milkis updates and translations about the whole issue. Thanks. Im not trying claim blizzard is devil incarnate. But I am trying to set some facts out straight to those who gets even the facts wrong. Blizzard cause of action was that BW tournaments was to the detriment of SC2 thus seeking an injunction against Kespa holding BW tournaments and damages from Kespa. As for plainsix, he is entitled to his opinion like everyone else. But I just wish he gets the facts right at least and not base his opinions on wrong facts. Blizzards internal reasoning for bringing the lawsuit are not known fact. You think it's to stop BW events and I think it was to secure broadcast rights and protect their IP. Both were things that could have happened during the law suit. You can't just declare that only one half of that mattered. Cause of action is the legal basis (Ive already mentioned it when I first brought up this term). If I sue under contract law for breach of contract, my cause of action would go X actions breach Y terms of the contract causing me damages, thus I ask for damages or specific performance (a type of judgement to compel the defendant to do something). That would be my cause of action. Lots of details involved (is the defendant the correct party, terms constant, interpretation of the terms, causation, actual damage assessment etc). Cause of action is the legal term of the writs contents. It has to be specific concise otherwise the court will throw it out. Blizzard internal/public reasoning does not come into play at all. It is what is claims to the courts. How does that prove me wrong again? At the end if the case blizzard got the broadcast rights and didn't get damages. And I work in law, I know that you have to ask for everything you are seeking upfront, even if you don't plan seeking everything you asked for.
Blizzards cause of action in suing Kespa is that BW tournaments is detrimental to SC2 thus causing blizzard damage and thus blizzard seeks an injunction to stop BW tournaments.
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On January 29 2014 03:27 Ammanas wrote:Show nested quote +On January 29 2014 03:19 Plansix wrote:On January 29 2014 03:11 Ammanas wrote:On January 29 2014 03:01 emythrel wrote:On January 29 2014 02:35 Ammanas wrote: Also all the exclusive rights were so much bullshit anyway. Imagine someone somewhere would be giving exclusive licenses to broadcast ALL of hockey or football or basketball or fucking chess... All those games (because that's what they are afterall) were created by someone somewhere, but the broadcasting licenses (or any licenses for that matter) belong to the creators of leagues, not creators of that game... Hate to tell you this, but the rights to broadcast all those sports ARE exclusive. in the UK, until 3 years ago, only Sky Sports could broadcast live Premiership matches, everyone else could only show highlights and they all had to state "Video courtesy of Sky Sports". In most countries, the rights to broadcast sporting events are exactly exclusive, thats how they make money selling the rights and how companies recoup money from advertising, if you want to watch X sport, you have to watch it on X channel. It might not be that way in the US, but I'd bet that there is one organisation, maybe 2, that have the rights to broadcast live american football, hockey, baseball and that they sub-let the rights to other companies within each state, or they simply broadcast on their syndicated networks. If you want to broadcast a sport, you have to pay their sporting board for the rights, wanna broadcast English football? Gotta pay the English FA. Wanna broadcast snooker? gotta pay the World Snooker Association. Wanna broadcast live snowboarding? Gotta pay the World Snowboard Association. Notice a pattern yet? Someone holds the rights to everything you see on TV and someone else had to pay for the right to broadcast it. If we knew exactly who created Soccer, I promise you that person would claim the rights to it and you would have to pay them instead of the FA or whomever, more liekly the FA would have to pay that person, then they would sell on the rights to Sky Sports etc. but in the case of Kespa vs Blizzard, Blizzard were the appropriate holder of any rights to Starcraft or Starcraft 2 The thing is, it was PREMIERSHIP who sold those rights. Not the person who created football, their heir or FIFA. It was the league. Same for Kespa - they create league, they can give the rights to broadcast to anyone. The sport creator shouldn't hold the rights for broadcast of said sport everywhere in the world, the leagues should. And they always are. Starcraft is not a foot ball or soccer ball. It is the ball and field you play on, and blizzard up keeps the rule book. Blizzard can own the broadcast rights to the game they made, just like a band has the broadcast rights to all their songs. And now we are in gray area. I believe there is no law about something this. I mean.. Chess is a 1v1 game, like Starcraft. Surely there is someone who have created it (or their heir) or some company who created the modern rules for it. The game turns into competitive 'sport' which people are watching. Does that mean those abovementioned people should be able to give exclusive broadcasting rights for ALL chess events ever done in (for example) Russia? Shouldn't it be the creators of league itself? We know how it works in real sports, why should it work differently in esports? Copyrights only last so long and chess can't be copyrighted, it is public domain. All copyrights expire at some point(thought they keep rewriting the law to extend that date for companies like Disney).
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On January 29 2014 03:28 emythrel wrote:Show nested quote +On January 29 2014 03:11 Ammanas wrote:On January 29 2014 03:01 emythrel wrote:On January 29 2014 02:35 Ammanas wrote: Also all the exclusive rights were so much bullshit anyway. Imagine someone somewhere would be giving exclusive licenses to broadcast ALL of hockey or football or basketball or fucking chess... All those games (because that's what they are afterall) were created by someone somewhere, but the broadcasting licenses (or any licenses for that matter) belong to the creators of leagues, not creators of that game... Hate to tell you this, but the rights to broadcast all those sports ARE exclusive. in the UK, until 3 years ago, only Sky Sports could broadcast live Premiership matches, everyone else could only show highlights and they all had to state "Video courtesy of Sky Sports". In most countries, the rights to broadcast sporting events are exactly exclusive, thats how they make money selling the rights and how companies recoup money from advertising, if you want to watch X sport, you have to watch it on X channel. It might not be that way in the US, but I'd bet that there is one organisation, maybe 2, that have the rights to broadcast live american football, hockey, baseball and that they sub-let the rights to other companies within each state, or they simply broadcast on their syndicated networks. If you want to broadcast a sport, you have to pay their sporting board for the rights, wanna broadcast English football? Gotta pay the English FA. Wanna broadcast snooker? gotta pay the World Snooker Association. Wanna broadcast live snowboarding? Gotta pay the World Snowboard Association. Notice a pattern yet? Someone holds the rights to everything you see on TV and someone else had to pay for the right to broadcast it. If we knew exactly who created Soccer, I promise you that person would claim the rights to it and you would have to pay them instead of the FA or whomever, more liekly the FA would have to pay that person, then they would sell on the rights to Sky Sports etc. but in the case of Kespa vs Blizzard, Blizzard were the appropriate holder of any rights to Starcraft or Starcraft 2 The thing is, it was PREMIERSHIP who sold those rights. Not the person who created football, their heir or FIFA. It was the league. Same for Kespa - they create league, they can give the rights to broadcast to anyone. The sport creator shouldn't hold the rights for broadcast of said sport everywhere in the world, the leagues should. And they always are. If football were invented today, that wouldn't be the case. We don't know who invented football, even if we did, the laws protecting IP didn't exist when it was invented so it wouldn't matter. Any new sport would have the same protections that Starcraft does. The rights to broadcast most sports belong the the governing body of that sport, not the league. The FA does not run the non professional leagues but you have to pay licencing fees to them to have your team accredited, if you want to form your own league you have to pay for the rights to the FA. Its not the league creators at all that hold the rights, its just that most professional leagues are run by the governing body. If you want to have Deal or no Deal on TV in your country, you have to pay for the rights from whomever holds them, that might not be the person who created it, but the person who created the show sold the rights to a TV company usually, who can then sell them on to someone else, but they have to give a percentage to the original creator in most cases. Starcraft is a game, a trademarked game, therefore if you use its content in a direct fashion like SC2 is used, and you make money from that, you have to pay Blizzard. That is as it should be. Modern Soccer, Rugby, Baseball etc are significantly different from their original forms, if you could find the guy who first picked up the ball and ran with it (How rugby was "created") you would have no right to claim the modern game of Rugby as yours, it would be so vastly different in the centuries between, however what Kespa were broadcasting was Blizzards property, pretty much exactly how they designed it, and they didn't even show a logo with Blizzard on it until they were forced to! Anyone who tries to defend Kespa for not paying Blizzard to broadcast their game simply is living in a world where the creators of content are obviously not worthy of note. A songwriter has the rights to the broadcast of their music, an author has the rights to the reproduction of their writing, Movie studios have the rights to all films made by them, why should games be any different? They might not have been using BW as it was originally intended (simply as a game) but they were making money from it and not paying Blizzard for the privilege and that is wrong. Blizzard have every right to be paid when you use their work to make money for yourself, that is how everything else in the world works. But what about MMA for example? It is a modern sport. There is someone who has created it. But if I want to create my own MMA tournament next door and one of our TVs wants to broadcast it, there is NO ONE who has the right to stop it and also there is NO ONE who will stop me from doing it. Or wrestling for that matter.
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On January 29 2014 03:28 Kheve wrote:Show nested quote +On January 29 2014 03:24 Plansix wrote:On January 29 2014 03:16 Kheve wrote:On January 29 2014 02:59 Plansix wrote:On January 29 2014 02:53 Kheve wrote:On January 29 2014 02:37 Golondrin wrote:On January 29 2014 02:16 Plansix wrote: You really need to read up on the subject, rather than spouting nonsense. That should apply to you. From what kheve is saying looks like he was reading about the subject as it was actually happening back in the day. Don't use google, the sites it brings are only taking on what blizzard told them about and didn't bother to contact the other side and have the two sides of the story because of the language barrier. Instead look on TL for milkis updates and translations about the whole issue. Thanks. Im not trying claim blizzard is devil incarnate. But I am trying to set some facts out straight to those who gets even the facts wrong. Blizzard cause of action was that BW tournaments was to the detriment of SC2 thus seeking an injunction against Kespa holding BW tournaments and damages from Kespa. As for plainsix, he is entitled to his opinion like everyone else. But I just wish he gets the facts right at least and not base his opinions on wrong facts. Blizzards internal reasoning for bringing the lawsuit are not known fact. You think it's to stop BW events and I think it was to secure broadcast rights and protect their IP. Both were things that could have happened during the law suit. You can't just declare that only one half of that mattered. Cause of action is the legal basis (Ive already mentioned it when I first brought up this term). If I sue under contract law for breach of contract, my cause of action would go X actions breach Y terms of the contract causing me damages, thus I ask for damages or specific performance (a type of judgement to compel the defendant to do something). That would be my cause of action. Lots of details involved (is the defendant the correct party, terms constant, interpretation of the terms, causation, actual damage assessment etc). Cause of action is the legal term of the writs contents. It has to be specific concise otherwise the court will throw it out. Blizzard internal/public reasoning does not come into play at all. It is what is claims to the courts. How does that prove me wrong again? At the end if the case blizzard got the broadcast rights and didn't get damages. And I work in law, I know that you have to ask for everything you are seeking upfront, even if you don't plan seeking everything you asked for. Blizzards cause of action in suing Kespa is that BW tournaments is detrimental to SC2 thus causing blizzard damage and thus blizzard seeks an injunction to stop BW tournaments. But that didn't happen. It was settled and resolved with with blizzard getting the broadcast rights to SC2. Blizzard alway has the option to file a TRO, but they never did.
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On January 29 2014 03:27 Ammanas wrote:Show nested quote +On January 29 2014 03:19 Plansix wrote:On January 29 2014 03:11 Ammanas wrote:On January 29 2014 03:01 emythrel wrote:On January 29 2014 02:35 Ammanas wrote: Also all the exclusive rights were so much bullshit anyway. Imagine someone somewhere would be giving exclusive licenses to broadcast ALL of hockey or football or basketball or fucking chess... All those games (because that's what they are afterall) were created by someone somewhere, but the broadcasting licenses (or any licenses for that matter) belong to the creators of leagues, not creators of that game... Hate to tell you this, but the rights to broadcast all those sports ARE exclusive. in the UK, until 3 years ago, only Sky Sports could broadcast live Premiership matches, everyone else could only show highlights and they all had to state "Video courtesy of Sky Sports". In most countries, the rights to broadcast sporting events are exactly exclusive, thats how they make money selling the rights and how companies recoup money from advertising, if you want to watch X sport, you have to watch it on X channel. It might not be that way in the US, but I'd bet that there is one organisation, maybe 2, that have the rights to broadcast live american football, hockey, baseball and that they sub-let the rights to other companies within each state, or they simply broadcast on their syndicated networks. If you want to broadcast a sport, you have to pay their sporting board for the rights, wanna broadcast English football? Gotta pay the English FA. Wanna broadcast snooker? gotta pay the World Snooker Association. Wanna broadcast live snowboarding? Gotta pay the World Snowboard Association. Notice a pattern yet? Someone holds the rights to everything you see on TV and someone else had to pay for the right to broadcast it. If we knew exactly who created Soccer, I promise you that person would claim the rights to it and you would have to pay them instead of the FA or whomever, more liekly the FA would have to pay that person, then they would sell on the rights to Sky Sports etc. but in the case of Kespa vs Blizzard, Blizzard were the appropriate holder of any rights to Starcraft or Starcraft 2 The thing is, it was PREMIERSHIP who sold those rights. Not the person who created football, their heir or FIFA. It was the league. Same for Kespa - they create league, they can give the rights to broadcast to anyone. The sport creator shouldn't hold the rights for broadcast of said sport everywhere in the world, the leagues should. And they always are. Starcraft is not a foot ball or soccer ball. It is the ball and field you play on, and blizzard up keeps the rule book. Blizzard can own the broadcast rights to the game they made, just like a band has the broadcast rights to all their songs. And now we are in gray area. I believe there is no law about something this. I mean.. Chess is a 1v1 game, like Starcraft. Surely there is someone who have created it (or their heir) or some company who created the modern rules for it. The game turns into competitive 'sport' which people are watching. Does that mean those abovementioned people should be able to give exclusive broadcasting rights for ALL chess events ever done in (for example) Russia? Shouldn't it be the creators of league itself? We know how it works in real sports, why should it work differently in esports?
The league crators should have the rights to their league, but they should have to pay whomever created the game for the right to use it. You can't compare games created centuries ago with modern video games.
The rights to broadcast ALL professional snowboarding belong to one body, the WSA, they took a hobby and created form and structure to have different disciplines with distinct rule sets, what they broadcast is sufficiently separate from the creation of a snowboard that the first snowboarder can not claim the rights. However, what Kespa was broadcasting was Blizzards game, with their unit balance, the only thing they created themselves were the maps. Even the league format for proleague is not original, its just a series of round robins. The individual matches use a well established best of system and the "ace" match has been around since long before BW, you find it in team pool matches, tennis, etc etc.
Kespa can not claim the rights to anything, they did not change how the game was played, the game itself or the rules significantly enough to claim that what they were broadcasting was seperate from what blizzard created. The only thing Kespa ever created was a league, they didn't even invent the ranking system or format of the league, but used already well established formats. So what exactly were Kespa trying to claim that they had the right to broadcast BW without paying blizzard based upon?
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On January 29 2014 03:37 emythrel wrote:Show nested quote +On January 29 2014 03:27 Ammanas wrote:On January 29 2014 03:19 Plansix wrote:On January 29 2014 03:11 Ammanas wrote:On January 29 2014 03:01 emythrel wrote:On January 29 2014 02:35 Ammanas wrote: Also all the exclusive rights were so much bullshit anyway. Imagine someone somewhere would be giving exclusive licenses to broadcast ALL of hockey or football or basketball or fucking chess... All those games (because that's what they are afterall) were created by someone somewhere, but the broadcasting licenses (or any licenses for that matter) belong to the creators of leagues, not creators of that game... Hate to tell you this, but the rights to broadcast all those sports ARE exclusive. in the UK, until 3 years ago, only Sky Sports could broadcast live Premiership matches, everyone else could only show highlights and they all had to state "Video courtesy of Sky Sports". In most countries, the rights to broadcast sporting events are exactly exclusive, thats how they make money selling the rights and how companies recoup money from advertising, if you want to watch X sport, you have to watch it on X channel. It might not be that way in the US, but I'd bet that there is one organisation, maybe 2, that have the rights to broadcast live american football, hockey, baseball and that they sub-let the rights to other companies within each state, or they simply broadcast on their syndicated networks. If you want to broadcast a sport, you have to pay their sporting board for the rights, wanna broadcast English football? Gotta pay the English FA. Wanna broadcast snooker? gotta pay the World Snooker Association. Wanna broadcast live snowboarding? Gotta pay the World Snowboard Association. Notice a pattern yet? Someone holds the rights to everything you see on TV and someone else had to pay for the right to broadcast it. If we knew exactly who created Soccer, I promise you that person would claim the rights to it and you would have to pay them instead of the FA or whomever, more liekly the FA would have to pay that person, then they would sell on the rights to Sky Sports etc. but in the case of Kespa vs Blizzard, Blizzard were the appropriate holder of any rights to Starcraft or Starcraft 2 The thing is, it was PREMIERSHIP who sold those rights. Not the person who created football, their heir or FIFA. It was the league. Same for Kespa - they create league, they can give the rights to broadcast to anyone. The sport creator shouldn't hold the rights for broadcast of said sport everywhere in the world, the leagues should. And they always are. Starcraft is not a foot ball or soccer ball. It is the ball and field you play on, and blizzard up keeps the rule book. Blizzard can own the broadcast rights to the game they made, just like a band has the broadcast rights to all their songs. And now we are in gray area. I believe there is no law about something this. I mean.. Chess is a 1v1 game, like Starcraft. Surely there is someone who have created it (or their heir) or some company who created the modern rules for it. The game turns into competitive 'sport' which people are watching. Does that mean those abovementioned people should be able to give exclusive broadcasting rights for ALL chess events ever done in (for example) Russia? Shouldn't it be the creators of league itself? We know how it works in real sports, why should it work differently in esports? The league crators should have the rights to their league, but they should have to pay whomever created the game for the right to use it. You can't compare games created centuries ago with modern video games. The rights to broadcast ALL professional snowboarding belong to one body, the WSA, they took a hobby and created form and structure to have different disciplines with distinct rule sets, what they broadcast is sufficiently separate from the creation of a snowboard that the first snowboarder can not claim the rights. However, what Kespa was broadcasting was Blizzards game, with their unit balance, the only thing they created themselves were the maps. Even the league format for proleague is not original, its just a series of round robins. The individual matches use a well established best of system and the "ace" match has been around since long before BW, you find it in team pool matches, tennis, etc etc. Kespa can not claim the rights to anything, they did not change how the game was played, the game itself or the rules significantly enough to claim that what they were broadcasting was seperate from what blizzard created. The only thing Kespa ever created was a league, they didn't even invent the ranking system or format of the league, but used already well established formats. So what exactly were Kespa trying to claim that they had the right to broadcast BW without paying blizzard based upon? First of all, see my MMA example above. Second of all - OK, your snowboarding example. I am pretty sure that if I created a snowboarding tournament, my local TV would want to broadcast it, the WSA couldn't prohibit shit.
And to add to that, Kespa can claim the rights to Proleague and that's about it. The original argument started with me saying Blizzard should not be able to give ANY broadcasting rights to anyone or on the other hand they shouldn't be able to prohibit other bodies from broadcasting a tournament in their game because it is bullshit imo.
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So KespA won the war ? i'm happy.
But what does this mean for gom ? No change right ?
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On January 29 2014 03:33 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On January 29 2014 03:28 Kheve wrote:On January 29 2014 03:24 Plansix wrote:On January 29 2014 03:16 Kheve wrote:On January 29 2014 02:59 Plansix wrote:On January 29 2014 02:53 Kheve wrote:On January 29 2014 02:37 Golondrin wrote:On January 29 2014 02:16 Plansix wrote: You really need to read up on the subject, rather than spouting nonsense. That should apply to you. From what kheve is saying looks like he was reading about the subject as it was actually happening back in the day. Don't use google, the sites it brings are only taking on what blizzard told them about and didn't bother to contact the other side and have the two sides of the story because of the language barrier. Instead look on TL for milkis updates and translations about the whole issue. Thanks. Im not trying claim blizzard is devil incarnate. But I am trying to set some facts out straight to those who gets even the facts wrong. Blizzard cause of action was that BW tournaments was to the detriment of SC2 thus seeking an injunction against Kespa holding BW tournaments and damages from Kespa. As for plainsix, he is entitled to his opinion like everyone else. But I just wish he gets the facts right at least and not base his opinions on wrong facts. Blizzards internal reasoning for bringing the lawsuit are not known fact. You think it's to stop BW events and I think it was to secure broadcast rights and protect their IP. Both were things that could have happened during the law suit. You can't just declare that only one half of that mattered. Cause of action is the legal basis (Ive already mentioned it when I first brought up this term). If I sue under contract law for breach of contract, my cause of action would go X actions breach Y terms of the contract causing me damages, thus I ask for damages or specific performance (a type of judgement to compel the defendant to do something). That would be my cause of action. Lots of details involved (is the defendant the correct party, terms constant, interpretation of the terms, causation, actual damage assessment etc). Cause of action is the legal term of the writs contents. It has to be specific concise otherwise the court will throw it out. Blizzard internal/public reasoning does not come into play at all. It is what is claims to the courts. How does that prove me wrong again? At the end if the case blizzard got the broadcast rights and didn't get damages. And I work in law, I know that you have to ask for everything you are seeking upfront, even if you don't plan seeking everything you asked for. Blizzards cause of action in suing Kespa is that BW tournaments is detrimental to SC2 thus causing blizzard damage and thus blizzard seeks an injunction to stop BW tournaments. But that didn't happen. It was settled and resolved with with blizzard getting the broadcast rights to SC2. Blizzard alway has the option to file a TRO, but they never did.
It did. It was the cause of action. They filed it. Not sure if korea has a registrar system. Nevertheless the cause of action was mentioned.
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On January 28 2014 15:51 xuanzue wrote: actually, I only care about life getting a good team.
Wait what Life left startale?
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On January 29 2014 04:08 Kheve wrote:Show nested quote +On January 29 2014 03:33 Plansix wrote:On January 29 2014 03:28 Kheve wrote:On January 29 2014 03:24 Plansix wrote:On January 29 2014 03:16 Kheve wrote:On January 29 2014 02:59 Plansix wrote:On January 29 2014 02:53 Kheve wrote:On January 29 2014 02:37 Golondrin wrote:On January 29 2014 02:16 Plansix wrote: You really need to read up on the subject, rather than spouting nonsense. That should apply to you. From what kheve is saying looks like he was reading about the subject as it was actually happening back in the day. Don't use google, the sites it brings are only taking on what blizzard told them about and didn't bother to contact the other side and have the two sides of the story because of the language barrier. Instead look on TL for milkis updates and translations about the whole issue. Thanks. Im not trying claim blizzard is devil incarnate. But I am trying to set some facts out straight to those who gets even the facts wrong. Blizzard cause of action was that BW tournaments was to the detriment of SC2 thus seeking an injunction against Kespa holding BW tournaments and damages from Kespa. As for plainsix, he is entitled to his opinion like everyone else. But I just wish he gets the facts right at least and not base his opinions on wrong facts. Blizzards internal reasoning for bringing the lawsuit are not known fact. You think it's to stop BW events and I think it was to secure broadcast rights and protect their IP. Both were things that could have happened during the law suit. You can't just declare that only one half of that mattered. Cause of action is the legal basis (Ive already mentioned it when I first brought up this term). If I sue under contract law for breach of contract, my cause of action would go X actions breach Y terms of the contract causing me damages, thus I ask for damages or specific performance (a type of judgement to compel the defendant to do something). That would be my cause of action. Lots of details involved (is the defendant the correct party, terms constant, interpretation of the terms, causation, actual damage assessment etc). Cause of action is the legal term of the writs contents. It has to be specific concise otherwise the court will throw it out. Blizzard internal/public reasoning does not come into play at all. It is what is claims to the courts. How does that prove me wrong again? At the end if the case blizzard got the broadcast rights and didn't get damages. And I work in law, I know that you have to ask for everything you are seeking upfront, even if you don't plan seeking everything you asked for. Blizzards cause of action in suing Kespa is that BW tournaments is detrimental to SC2 thus causing blizzard damage and thus blizzard seeks an injunction to stop BW tournaments. But that didn't happen. It was settled and resolved with with blizzard getting the broadcast rights to SC2. Blizzard alway has the option to file a TRO, but they never did. It did. It was the cause of action. They filed it. Not sure if korea has a registrar system. Nevertheless the cause of action was mentioned. Good, glad we agree on the facts and that a Injunction was never filed and BW broadcaster kept going on during the course of the lawsuit.
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On January 29 2014 03:28 emythrel wrote:Show nested quote +On January 29 2014 03:11 Ammanas wrote:On January 29 2014 03:01 emythrel wrote:On January 29 2014 02:35 Ammanas wrote: Also all the exclusive rights were so much bullshit anyway. Imagine someone somewhere would be giving exclusive licenses to broadcast ALL of hockey or football or basketball or fucking chess... All those games (because that's what they are afterall) were created by someone somewhere, but the broadcasting licenses (or any licenses for that matter) belong to the creators of leagues, not creators of that game... Hate to tell you this, but the rights to broadcast all those sports ARE exclusive. in the UK, until 3 years ago, only Sky Sports could broadcast live Premiership matches, everyone else could only show highlights and they all had to state "Video courtesy of Sky Sports". In most countries, the rights to broadcast sporting events are exactly exclusive, thats how they make money selling the rights and how companies recoup money from advertising, if you want to watch X sport, you have to watch it on X channel. It might not be that way in the US, but I'd bet that there is one organisation, maybe 2, that have the rights to broadcast live american football, hockey, baseball and that they sub-let the rights to other companies within each state, or they simply broadcast on their syndicated networks. If you want to broadcast a sport, you have to pay their sporting board for the rights, wanna broadcast English football? Gotta pay the English FA. Wanna broadcast snooker? gotta pay the World Snooker Association. Wanna broadcast live snowboarding? Gotta pay the World Snowboard Association. Notice a pattern yet? Someone holds the rights to everything you see on TV and someone else had to pay for the right to broadcast it. If we knew exactly who created Soccer, I promise you that person would claim the rights to it and you would have to pay them instead of the FA or whomever, more liekly the FA would have to pay that person, then they would sell on the rights to Sky Sports etc. but in the case of Kespa vs Blizzard, Blizzard were the appropriate holder of any rights to Starcraft or Starcraft 2 The thing is, it was PREMIERSHIP who sold those rights. Not the person who created football, their heir or FIFA. It was the league. Same for Kespa - they create league, they can give the rights to broadcast to anyone. The sport creator shouldn't hold the rights for broadcast of said sport everywhere in the world, the leagues should. And they always are. If football were invented today, that wouldn't be the case. We don't know who invented football, even if we did, the laws protecting IP didn't exist when it was invented so it wouldn't matter. Any new sport would have the same protections that Starcraft does. The rights to broadcast most sports belong the the governing body of that sport, not the league. The FA does not run the non professional leagues but you have to pay licencing fees to them to have your team accredited, if you want to form your own league you have to pay for the rights to the FA. Its not the league creators at all that hold the rights, its just that most professional leagues are run by the governing body. If you want to have Deal or no Deal on TV in your country, you have to pay for the rights from whomever holds them, that might not be the person who created it, but the person who created the show sold the rights to a TV company usually, who can then sell them on to someone else, but they have to give a percentage to the original creator in most cases. Starcraft is a game, a trademarked game, therefore if you use its content in a direct fashion like SC2 is used, and you make money from that, you have to pay Blizzard. That is as it should be. Modern Soccer, Rugby, Baseball etc are significantly different from their original forms, if you could find the guy who first picked up the ball and ran with it (How rugby was "created") you would have no right to claim the modern game of Rugby as yours, it would be so vastly different in the centuries between, however what Kespa were broadcasting was Blizzards property, pretty much exactly how they designed it, and they didn't even show a logo with Blizzard on it until they were forced to! Anyone who tries to defend Kespa for not paying Blizzard to broadcast their game simply is living in a world where the creators of content are obviously not worthy of note. A songwriter has the rights to the broadcast of their music, an author has the rights to the reproduction of their writing, Movie studios have the rights to all films made by them, why should games be any different? They might not have been using BW as it was originally intended (simply as a game) but they were making money from it and not paying Blizzard for the privilege and that is wrong. Blizzard have every right to be paid when you use their work to make money for yourself, that is how everything else in the world works.
Dont use movie/songs because they are definitely not relevant to game. COPY right belongs to creator. If someone else came up with a song with different lyrics and 99% similar melody (like chinese/japanese/korean versions of popular songs) it is THEIR copyright. Movies same thing. 'Jaws' case is the main precedent. Similar but not same is sufficient against infringement claims. Ideas are not copyrightable. If we go by these standards blizzard is dead.
Blizzard refuses to use sports as a standard coz then blizzard claims are terrible. All sports broadcast rights belong to the organisers. FIFA doesnt own champions league. UEFA does as well as the Euro. FIFA do own world cup however.
1) Kespa never claimed Blizzards trademark (never claim to be blizzard, never misled others to think they're blizzard) 2) Property belongs to the OWNER. All rights belong to the OWNER unless otherwise stated. Thats why u always see copyright/trademarks are property of XXX. SC2 have an additional clause saying broadcast rights belong to blizzard. 3) Blizzard was PAID by kespa and all other gamers when they purchased the game. Half the BW sold was in korea. 4) Kespa NEVER COPIED BW. Never pirated it.
The only thing is IP which is governed by fair use (yes this is a legal term independent of 'fair use policy' created by developers which is actually a contract term which deprives users of the legal fair use right). Regretably Blizzard sue BW tournaments because it damages sc2. If schumacher drives his own BMW and the video is a viral hit, all revenues of the video belongs to schumacher. Cause the BMW owner is schumacher. And hes driving it around. And he made a video. Which was broadcasted and got lots of money. No questions.
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On January 29 2014 04:12 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On January 29 2014 04:08 Kheve wrote:On January 29 2014 03:33 Plansix wrote:On January 29 2014 03:28 Kheve wrote:On January 29 2014 03:24 Plansix wrote:On January 29 2014 03:16 Kheve wrote:On January 29 2014 02:59 Plansix wrote:On January 29 2014 02:53 Kheve wrote:On January 29 2014 02:37 Golondrin wrote:On January 29 2014 02:16 Plansix wrote: You really need to read up on the subject, rather than spouting nonsense. That should apply to you. From what kheve is saying looks like he was reading about the subject as it was actually happening back in the day. Don't use google, the sites it brings are only taking on what blizzard told them about and didn't bother to contact the other side and have the two sides of the story because of the language barrier. Instead look on TL for milkis updates and translations about the whole issue. Thanks. Im not trying claim blizzard is devil incarnate. But I am trying to set some facts out straight to those who gets even the facts wrong. Blizzard cause of action was that BW tournaments was to the detriment of SC2 thus seeking an injunction against Kespa holding BW tournaments and damages from Kespa. As for plainsix, he is entitled to his opinion like everyone else. But I just wish he gets the facts right at least and not base his opinions on wrong facts. Blizzards internal reasoning for bringing the lawsuit are not known fact. You think it's to stop BW events and I think it was to secure broadcast rights and protect their IP. Both were things that could have happened during the law suit. You can't just declare that only one half of that mattered. Cause of action is the legal basis (Ive already mentioned it when I first brought up this term). If I sue under contract law for breach of contract, my cause of action would go X actions breach Y terms of the contract causing me damages, thus I ask for damages or specific performance (a type of judgement to compel the defendant to do something). That would be my cause of action. Lots of details involved (is the defendant the correct party, terms constant, interpretation of the terms, causation, actual damage assessment etc). Cause of action is the legal term of the writs contents. It has to be specific concise otherwise the court will throw it out. Blizzard internal/public reasoning does not come into play at all. It is what is claims to the courts. How does that prove me wrong again? At the end if the case blizzard got the broadcast rights and didn't get damages. And I work in law, I know that you have to ask for everything you are seeking upfront, even if you don't plan seeking everything you asked for. Blizzards cause of action in suing Kespa is that BW tournaments is detrimental to SC2 thus causing blizzard damage and thus blizzard seeks an injunction to stop BW tournaments. But that didn't happen. It was settled and resolved with with blizzard getting the broadcast rights to SC2. Blizzard alway has the option to file a TRO, but they never did. It did. It was the cause of action. They filed it. Not sure if korea has a registrar system. Nevertheless the cause of action was mentioned. Good, glad we agree on the facts and that a Injunction was never filed and BW broadcaster kept going on during the course of the lawsuit.
but of course. What judge would grant an injunction in such a case. You can file for one anytime you like. Doesnt mean the court must hear it immediately nor hearing it will grant it.
But the filing of the injunction did happen. Blizzard remains the only developer in the world to seek to stop organisers from holding their games tournament.
No one cares about SC2 broadcast right. Thats why blizzard has to pump its own money into it. They reap what they sow. You sue your own FOC game tournaments, now you have to use ur own money to support it.
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All right Kheve, your have proved your point and we all get that you don't like Blizzard or what they did to Kepsa. Time to move on. No one want a to argue with you over who was the meaner business.
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On January 29 2014 03:01 emythrel wrote:Show nested quote +On January 29 2014 02:35 Ammanas wrote: Also all the exclusive rights were so much bullshit anyway. Imagine someone somewhere would be giving exclusive licenses to broadcast ALL of hockey or football or basketball or fucking chess... All those games (because that's what they are afterall) were created by someone somewhere, but the broadcasting licenses (or any licenses for that matter) belong to the creators of leagues, not creators of that game... Hate to tell you this, but the rights to broadcast all those sports ARE exclusive. in the UK, until 3 years ago, only Sky Sports could broadcast live Premiership matches, everyone else could only show highlights and they all had to state "Video courtesy of Sky Sports". In most countries, the rights to broadcast sporting events are exactly exclusive, thats how they make money selling the rights and how companies recoup money from advertising, if you want to watch X sport, you have to watch it on X channel. It might not be that way in the US, but I'd bet that there is one organisation, maybe 2, that have the rights to broadcast live american football, hockey, baseball and that they sub-let the rights to other companies within each state, or they simply broadcast on their syndicated networks. If you want to broadcast a sport, you have to pay their sporting board for the rights, wanna broadcast English football? Gotta pay the English FA. Wanna broadcast snooker? gotta pay the World Snooker Association. Wanna broadcast live snowboarding? Gotta pay the World Snowboard Association. Notice a pattern yet? Someone holds the rights to everything you see on TV and someone else had to pay for the right to broadcast it. If we knew exactly who created Soccer, I promise you that person would claim the rights to it and you would have to pay them instead of the FA or whomever, more liekly the FA would have to pay that person, then they would sell on the rights to Sky Sports etc. but in the case of Kespa vs Blizzard, Blizzard were the appropriate holder of any rights to Starcraft or Starcraft 2. All the sports u mentioned were being broadcast long before IP laws went in to effect, if a new sport was invented tomorrow, and one person, collection of people or company could prove they created it, they could easily trademark the game and have exclusive rights to its use. Board games work this way, everything else works this way, so why should an eSport be any different? The company who make the game have all the rights to its use and rightly so.
I lol'ed at this arguments. Premiership is the one who holds the UK League, which in this case is equivalent to Kespa. I can't even understand why you can think of premiership as the creator of football. Lol.
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Foregone conclusion at this point but still sad. For those like me who did not follow BW whatsoever, eSF was the source of the vast majority of our great SC2 memories.
Edit: As someone with a (vague) familiarity with IP law, I can say that a very large portion of purported statements of law by both sides of this "debate" are not, in fact, correct. No one can stop people from making random assertions as to what the law is (this is the Internet, after all), but for anyone who happens to be reading this thread, please don't believe the various conclusory statements made here about IP law no matter how certain the poster sounds about it.
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On January 29 2014 04:45 Yakikorosu wrote: Foregone conclusion at this point but still sad. For those like me who did not follow BW whatsoever, eSF was the source of the vast majority of our great SC2 memories.
eSF was not the source of great SC2 memories. That was the players that made the great memories and plays, and GSL which gave them the medium to showcase those plays and great games. eSF was just a political entity that was more interested in power than SC2
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On January 29 2014 04:48 Bagration wrote:Show nested quote +On January 29 2014 04:45 Yakikorosu wrote: Foregone conclusion at this point but still sad. For those like me who did not follow BW whatsoever, eSF was the source of the vast majority of our great SC2 memories. eSF was not the source of great SC2 memories. That was the players that made the great memories and plays, and GSL which gave them the medium to showcase those plays and great games. eSF was just a political entity that was more interested in power than SC2
I'm not a KeSPA hater at all, and am aware that GOM and eSF aren't the same thing, but eSF certainly had more to do with those memories (especially the GSTL ones) than KeSPA did.
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On January 29 2014 04:25 Kheve wrote:Show nested quote +On January 29 2014 03:28 emythrel wrote:On January 29 2014 03:11 Ammanas wrote:On January 29 2014 03:01 emythrel wrote:On January 29 2014 02:35 Ammanas wrote: Also all the exclusive rights were so much bullshit anyway. Imagine someone somewhere would be giving exclusive licenses to broadcast ALL of hockey or football or basketball or fucking chess... All those games (because that's what they are afterall) were created by someone somewhere, but the broadcasting licenses (or any licenses for that matter) belong to the creators of leagues, not creators of that game... Hate to tell you this, but the rights to broadcast all those sports ARE exclusive. in the UK, until 3 years ago, only Sky Sports could broadcast live Premiership matches, everyone else could only show highlights and they all had to state "Video courtesy of Sky Sports". In most countries, the rights to broadcast sporting events are exactly exclusive, thats how they make money selling the rights and how companies recoup money from advertising, if you want to watch X sport, you have to watch it on X channel. It might not be that way in the US, but I'd bet that there is one organisation, maybe 2, that have the rights to broadcast live american football, hockey, baseball and that they sub-let the rights to other companies within each state, or they simply broadcast on their syndicated networks. If you want to broadcast a sport, you have to pay their sporting board for the rights, wanna broadcast English football? Gotta pay the English FA. Wanna broadcast snooker? gotta pay the World Snooker Association. Wanna broadcast live snowboarding? Gotta pay the World Snowboard Association. Notice a pattern yet? Someone holds the rights to everything you see on TV and someone else had to pay for the right to broadcast it. If we knew exactly who created Soccer, I promise you that person would claim the rights to it and you would have to pay them instead of the FA or whomever, more liekly the FA would have to pay that person, then they would sell on the rights to Sky Sports etc. but in the case of Kespa vs Blizzard, Blizzard were the appropriate holder of any rights to Starcraft or Starcraft 2 The thing is, it was PREMIERSHIP who sold those rights. Not the person who created football, their heir or FIFA. It was the league. Same for Kespa - they create league, they can give the rights to broadcast to anyone. The sport creator shouldn't hold the rights for broadcast of said sport everywhere in the world, the leagues should. And they always are. If football were invented today, that wouldn't be the case. We don't know who invented football, even if we did, the laws protecting IP didn't exist when it was invented so it wouldn't matter. Any new sport would have the same protections that Starcraft does. The rights to broadcast most sports belong the the governing body of that sport, not the league. The FA does not run the non professional leagues but you have to pay licencing fees to them to have your team accredited, if you want to form your own league you have to pay for the rights to the FA. Its not the league creators at all that hold the rights, its just that most professional leagues are run by the governing body. If you want to have Deal or no Deal on TV in your country, you have to pay for the rights from whomever holds them, that might not be the person who created it, but the person who created the show sold the rights to a TV company usually, who can then sell them on to someone else, but they have to give a percentage to the original creator in most cases. Starcraft is a game, a trademarked game, therefore if you use its content in a direct fashion like SC2 is used, and you make money from that, you have to pay Blizzard. That is as it should be. Modern Soccer, Rugby, Baseball etc are significantly different from their original forms, if you could find the guy who first picked up the ball and ran with it (How rugby was "created") you would have no right to claim the modern game of Rugby as yours, it would be so vastly different in the centuries between, however what Kespa were broadcasting was Blizzards property, pretty much exactly how they designed it, and they didn't even show a logo with Blizzard on it until they were forced to! Anyone who tries to defend Kespa for not paying Blizzard to broadcast their game simply is living in a world where the creators of content are obviously not worthy of note. A songwriter has the rights to the broadcast of their music, an author has the rights to the reproduction of their writing, Movie studios have the rights to all films made by them, why should games be any different? They might not have been using BW as it was originally intended (simply as a game) but they were making money from it and not paying Blizzard for the privilege and that is wrong. Blizzard have every right to be paid when you use their work to make money for yourself, that is how everything else in the world works. Dont use movie/songs because they are definitely not relevant to game. COPY right belongs to creator. If someone else came up with a song with different lyrics and 99% similar melody (like chinese/japanese/korean versions of popular songs) it is THEIR copyright. Movies same thing. 'Jaws' case is the main precedent. Similar but not same is sufficient against infringement claims. Ideas are not copyrightable. If we go by these standards blizzard is dead. Blizzard refuses to use sports as a standard coz then blizzard claims are terrible. All sports broadcast rights belong to the organisers. FIFA doesnt own champions league. UEFA does as well as the Euro. FIFA do own world cup however. 1) Kespa never claimed Blizzards trademark (never claim to be blizzard, never misled others to think they're blizzard) 2) Property belongs to the OWNER. All rights belong to the OWNER unless otherwise stated. Thats why u always see copyright/trademarks are property of XXX. SC2 have an additional clause saying broadcast rights belong to blizzard. 3) Blizzard was PAID by kespa and all other gamers when they purchased the game. Half the BW sold was in korea. 4) Kespa NEVER COPIED BW. Never pirated it. The only thing is IP which is governed by fair use (yes this is a legal term independent of 'fair use policy' created by developers which is actually a contract term which deprives users of the legal fair use right). Regretably Blizzard sue BW tournaments because it damages sc2. If schumacher drives his own BMW and the video is a viral hit, all revenues of the video belongs to schumacher. Cause the BMW owner is schumacher. And hes driving it around. And he made a video. Which was broadcasted and got lots of money. No questions.
Wow, you claim to have LLB qualifications, but can spout out stuff like this?
Movies and Songs are completely relevant to games, because copyright law does not make a distinction between any creative works unless they are listed specifically under certain clauses. In fact, most copyright laws tend to describe "copyrightable" works in general terms, like "creative, intellectual or artistic works", with some examples listed under what would qualify.
Copyright law gives the Copyright holder exclusive rights to: - Creation of Derivative works - Public displays or performances of the work - Transmissions of the work via Radio or Video
Obviously with some discrepancies between countries, but the laws are mostly homogenous because of treaties and agreements.
Also, your Schumacher analogy is totally off. If the video was taken by a third party, the revenue goes to the person taking the video (though actually a greyish area, depending on Publicity Rights). If Schumacher is just recording a video of himself driving in a normal day, and the BMW just happens to be what he was driving at that time, then yes, that's Fair Use, so he'd retain all rights to the video. However, if he recorded the video specifically with the intent of advertising himself in association with the BMW, using the car as a marketing prop, then that crosses into BMW's copyright.
Still a grey area across all fronts, because there's a lot of circumstances that have to be evaluated, and intent has to be considered and weighed.
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On January 28 2014 18:41 Greenei wrote: the esf prevented kespa from fucking gom in the ass at the beginning of the transition to sc2. so im sad to see them gone and kespa still around.
this. 100%.
Also, esf showed an example, that when u wanna win audience hearts u gotta listen to them and care about what they say (at least the reasonable bits). Compare 1st proleague or OGN (when Grubby was gonna be the english caster and the english part of casting and production was generally not given a shit about at all, most of you gotta remember those times) efforts and how it looks like now. It's all thanks to kespa seeing they don't hold a candle to how viewer friendly gstl was and deciding they gotta change or they'll always hold this 'evil corporation' look 'who bans players for writing 'p' more than twice for pause etc.'. They changed the image completely to remain competetive, but now with almost no competition in Korea (except GOM who might be aggressively taken over just as esf was) I'm not sure they will remain so 'saint' anymore.
Generally, I can't believe people saying equivalence of 'good riddance', 'they didn't do anything' and 'great news' in this thread. Must be either heartless or ignorant.
Also, this (if anyone prefers all-kill format in a teamleague, instead of watching ALL-MIRROR format):
On January 28 2014 18:53 -Celestial- wrote:Lets just hope KesPA doesn't go full on with the power-plays again and going control mad and trying to stomp out the GSL now that eSF is out of the way. -_- Show nested quote +On January 28 2014 16:15 SetGuitarsToKill wrote: You can always stay up till 2 am to watch proleague, which is still good. Not the same. Personally I really, really dislike the format for Proleague to the point that I just don't find it interesting to watch. This confirmation that GSTL is basically completely dead is pretty devastating. No team league to watch anymore.
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On January 29 2014 05:07 WolfintheSheep wrote:Show nested quote +On January 29 2014 04:25 Kheve wrote:On January 29 2014 03:28 emythrel wrote:On January 29 2014 03:11 Ammanas wrote:On January 29 2014 03:01 emythrel wrote:On January 29 2014 02:35 Ammanas wrote: Also all the exclusive rights were so much bullshit anyway. Imagine someone somewhere would be giving exclusive licenses to broadcast ALL of hockey or football or basketball or fucking chess... All those games (because that's what they are afterall) were created by someone somewhere, but the broadcasting licenses (or any licenses for that matter) belong to the creators of leagues, not creators of that game... Hate to tell you this, but the rights to broadcast all those sports ARE exclusive. in the UK, until 3 years ago, only Sky Sports could broadcast live Premiership matches, everyone else could only show highlights and they all had to state "Video courtesy of Sky Sports". In most countries, the rights to broadcast sporting events are exactly exclusive, thats how they make money selling the rights and how companies recoup money from advertising, if you want to watch X sport, you have to watch it on X channel. It might not be that way in the US, but I'd bet that there is one organisation, maybe 2, that have the rights to broadcast live american football, hockey, baseball and that they sub-let the rights to other companies within each state, or they simply broadcast on their syndicated networks. If you want to broadcast a sport, you have to pay their sporting board for the rights, wanna broadcast English football? Gotta pay the English FA. Wanna broadcast snooker? gotta pay the World Snooker Association. Wanna broadcast live snowboarding? Gotta pay the World Snowboard Association. Notice a pattern yet? Someone holds the rights to everything you see on TV and someone else had to pay for the right to broadcast it. If we knew exactly who created Soccer, I promise you that person would claim the rights to it and you would have to pay them instead of the FA or whomever, more liekly the FA would have to pay that person, then they would sell on the rights to Sky Sports etc. but in the case of Kespa vs Blizzard, Blizzard were the appropriate holder of any rights to Starcraft or Starcraft 2 The thing is, it was PREMIERSHIP who sold those rights. Not the person who created football, their heir or FIFA. It was the league. Same for Kespa - they create league, they can give the rights to broadcast to anyone. The sport creator shouldn't hold the rights for broadcast of said sport everywhere in the world, the leagues should. And they always are. If football were invented today, that wouldn't be the case. We don't know who invented football, even if we did, the laws protecting IP didn't exist when it was invented so it wouldn't matter. Any new sport would have the same protections that Starcraft does. The rights to broadcast most sports belong the the governing body of that sport, not the league. The FA does not run the non professional leagues but you have to pay licencing fees to them to have your team accredited, if you want to form your own league you have to pay for the rights to the FA. Its not the league creators at all that hold the rights, its just that most professional leagues are run by the governing body. If you want to have Deal or no Deal on TV in your country, you have to pay for the rights from whomever holds them, that might not be the person who created it, but the person who created the show sold the rights to a TV company usually, who can then sell them on to someone else, but they have to give a percentage to the original creator in most cases. Starcraft is a game, a trademarked game, therefore if you use its content in a direct fashion like SC2 is used, and you make money from that, you have to pay Blizzard. That is as it should be. Modern Soccer, Rugby, Baseball etc are significantly different from their original forms, if you could find the guy who first picked up the ball and ran with it (How rugby was "created") you would have no right to claim the modern game of Rugby as yours, it would be so vastly different in the centuries between, however what Kespa were broadcasting was Blizzards property, pretty much exactly how they designed it, and they didn't even show a logo with Blizzard on it until they were forced to! Anyone who tries to defend Kespa for not paying Blizzard to broadcast their game simply is living in a world where the creators of content are obviously not worthy of note. A songwriter has the rights to the broadcast of their music, an author has the rights to the reproduction of their writing, Movie studios have the rights to all films made by them, why should games be any different? They might not have been using BW as it was originally intended (simply as a game) but they were making money from it and not paying Blizzard for the privilege and that is wrong. Blizzard have every right to be paid when you use their work to make money for yourself, that is how everything else in the world works. Dont use movie/songs because they are definitely not relevant to game. COPY right belongs to creator. If someone else came up with a song with different lyrics and 99% similar melody (like chinese/japanese/korean versions of popular songs) it is THEIR copyright. Movies same thing. 'Jaws' case is the main precedent. Similar but not same is sufficient against infringement claims. Ideas are not copyrightable. If we go by these standards blizzard is dead. Blizzard refuses to use sports as a standard coz then blizzard claims are terrible. All sports broadcast rights belong to the organisers. FIFA doesnt own champions league. UEFA does as well as the Euro. FIFA do own world cup however. 1) Kespa never claimed Blizzards trademark (never claim to be blizzard, never misled others to think they're blizzard) 2) Property belongs to the OWNER. All rights belong to the OWNER unless otherwise stated. Thats why u always see copyright/trademarks are property of XXX. SC2 have an additional clause saying broadcast rights belong to blizzard. 3) Blizzard was PAID by kespa and all other gamers when they purchased the game. Half the BW sold was in korea. 4) Kespa NEVER COPIED BW. Never pirated it. The only thing is IP which is governed by fair use (yes this is a legal term independent of 'fair use policy' created by developers which is actually a contract term which deprives users of the legal fair use right). Regretably Blizzard sue BW tournaments because it damages sc2. If schumacher drives his own BMW and the video is a viral hit, all revenues of the video belongs to schumacher. Cause the BMW owner is schumacher. And hes driving it around. And he made a video. Which was broadcasted and got lots of money. No questions. Wow, you claim to have LLB qualifications, but can spout out stuff like this? Movies and Songs are completely relevant to games, because copyright law does not make a distinction between any creative works unless they are listed specifically under certain clauses. In fact, most copyright laws tend to describe "copyrightable" works in general terms, like "creative, intellectual or artistic works", with some examples listed under what would qualify. Copyright law gives the Copyright holder exclusive rights to: - Creation of Derivative works - Public displays or performances of the work - Transmissions of the work via Radio or Video Obviously with some discrepancies between countries, but the laws are mostly homogenous because of treaties and agreements. Also, your Schumacher analogy is totally off. If the video was taken by a third party, the revenue goes to the person taking the video (though actually a greyish area, depending on Publicity Rights). If Schumacher is just recording a video of himself driving in a normal day, and the BMW just happens to be what he was driving at that time, then yes, that's Fair Use, so he'd retain all rights to the video. However, if he recorded the video specifically with the intent of advertising himself in association with the BMW, using the car as a marketing prop, then that crosses into BMW's copyright. Still a grey area across all fronts, because there's a lot of circumstances that have to be evaluated, and intent has to be considered and weighed.
Using copyright of artistic works like songs and movies have long been shown to be defined narrowly. Ever since the time of 'Jaws' a very old movie the precedent has already been set. While the law does not differentiate, the precedents set have long been differentiated for movies and songs. Thus it is terrible and no one suing on copyright for software would use those precedents. While laws may differ in text, its interpretation are usually defined by comparable case law on which movies and songs have plentiful already. Its very weak.
Schumacher analogy is apt. It has long been establish in the advertising industry (since commercials are broadcasted and they show a BMW) cases where owner legally owns the money paid by the commercial for use of its car. Infringement is either when the commercial claim to be BMW/mislead into believing BMW is involved Or the commercial causes damage to BMW (reputation etc maybe cause the commercial belittles BMW). I quoted cars and commercials because it was one of the case research I did where Im forced to pore over every little detail. There is no instance of any infringement ever other than the 3 I listed. This was more than 10 years ago not sure if any new cases in commercials happened.
When kespa started, they started from zero. There was not much revenue etc etc. But plenty of costs. Organizing, prizepool, rent etc etc. Ask any of the small tourney organisers how difficult it is even today and then think what it was like 15 years ago when esports doesnt exist yet. Would you seriously even consider venturing into this for profit. Heck would you even believe someone who told you theres profit? It was a passion thing.
Yes I'm LLB qualified believe it or not. Thus I do know the finer points of law. Which is why I know movies and songs are terrible precedents to claim copyrights. Even for novels its terrible I heard due to da vinci code case which I only read in news. But basically da vinci code copies all the main idea of a previous work except da vinci was a thriller and the previous was not.
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Lol, he keeps bringing up the jaws case, which was based on all movies having to do with sharks. All shark movies. Of course the case was thrown out. It has little to do with the case for SC2, since they are not claiming to have rights to all broadcasts featuring stars.
Also, I have reviewed Kheves previous posts. The bias is strong with this one. We are not get an objective viewpoint on Kepsa.
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On January 29 2014 05:53 Plansix wrote: Lol, he keeps bringing up the jaws case, which was based on all movies having to do with sharks. All shark movies. Of course the case was thrown out. It has little to do with the case for SC2, since they are not claiming to have rights to all broadcasts featuring stars.
Also, I have reviewed Kheves previous posts. The bias is strong with this one. We are not get an objective viewpoint on Kepsa.
No one is talking about SC2. Korea esports doesnt care about SC2. Only Kespa bothers with SC2. How did this suddenly turn into SC2. It was always about Blizzard suing BW tournament organisers claiming they are damaging blizzard by holding tournaments.
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On January 29 2014 06:47 Kheve wrote:Show nested quote +On January 29 2014 05:53 Plansix wrote: Lol, he keeps bringing up the jaws case, which was based on all movies having to do with sharks. All shark movies. Of course the case was thrown out. It has little to do with the case for SC2, since they are not claiming to have rights to all broadcasts featuring stars.
Also, I have reviewed Kheves previous posts. The bias is strong with this one. We are not get an objective viewpoint on Kepsa. No one is talking about SC2. Korea esports doesnt care about SC2. Only Kespa bothers with SC2. How did this suddenly turn into SC2. It was always about Blizzard suing BW tournament organisers claiming they are damaging blizzard by holding tournaments.
I really don't get this common misconception. There is something between being irrelevant and being the most popular game you know. SC2 is far from being what BW was before and even after matchfixing and it is not what LoL is right now, but it sure as hell isn't completely irrelevant. If it was there wouldn't be 10 teams full of players, there wouldn't be GSL and there wouldn't be proleague. Maybe it is because BW was THE game in Korea and in 2011 SC2 was THE game in the rest of the world, but a game doesn't need to be the number 1 to be relevant.
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On January 29 2014 06:47 Kheve wrote:Show nested quote +On January 29 2014 05:53 Plansix wrote: Lol, he keeps bringing up the jaws case, which was based on all movies having to do with sharks. All shark movies. Of course the case was thrown out. It has little to do with the case for SC2, since they are not claiming to have rights to all broadcasts featuring stars.
Also, I have reviewed Kheves previous posts. The bias is strong with this one. We are not get an objective viewpoint on Kepsa. No one is talking about SC2. Korea esports doesnt care about SC2. Only Kespa bothers with SC2. How did this suddenly turn into SC2. It was always about Blizzard suing BW tournament organisers claiming they are damaging blizzard by holding tournaments.
Not that they're damage Blizzard. That they were damaging Blizzard's IP rights by broadcasting and holding tournaments without licensing or permission.
I don't necessarily believe in the extent that Copyright and Trademark laws cover, but I more than acknowledge that they exist. And no matter what irrelevant examples you bring up like Jaws and Da Vinci Code (both which were about creating similar works, by the way, not using the original in unauthorized manners), it doesn't change the fact that copyright law explicitly grants Blizzard Broadcast rights over their games.
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On January 29 2014 07:03 WolfintheSheep wrote:Show nested quote +On January 29 2014 06:47 Kheve wrote:On January 29 2014 05:53 Plansix wrote: Lol, he keeps bringing up the jaws case, which was based on all movies having to do with sharks. All shark movies. Of course the case was thrown out. It has little to do with the case for SC2, since they are not claiming to have rights to all broadcasts featuring stars.
Also, I have reviewed Kheves previous posts. The bias is strong with this one. We are not get an objective viewpoint on Kepsa. No one is talking about SC2. Korea esports doesnt care about SC2. Only Kespa bothers with SC2. How did this suddenly turn into SC2. It was always about Blizzard suing BW tournament organisers claiming they are damaging blizzard by holding tournaments. Not that they're damage Blizzard. That they were damaging Blizzard's IP rights by broadcasting and holding tournaments without licensing or permission. I don't necessarily believe in the extent that Copyright and Trademark laws cover, but I more than acknowledge that they exist. And no matter what irrelevant examples you bring up like Jaws and Da Vinci Code (both which were about creating similar works, by the way, not using the original in unauthorized manners), it doesn't change the fact that copyright law explicitly grants Blizzard Broadcast rights over their games.
No it doesnt. Copyright is the right to replicate. Thats all it is. Trademarks is claims of being someone, misleading into being someone. Naturally copyrights law have come some ways since the late 90s but the essence is mostly the same among countries with specific variations. That all encompassing rights is property cause its so old. Inside joke is law was essentially created to protect property. Many derivative rights (broadcast, licensing etc are actually contract). Thus unless otherwise stated, all rights to usage and enjoyment of a property always belong to the owner. I stream starcraft? the stream rights belong to me unless signed away to twitch etc.
Hence Blizzard suing BW tournaments organizers because it causes damage to SC2. This was the cause of action in the case. Not because Kespa charges for tourney. Not because Kespa infringes on their trademark. the claim was that BW tournaments are damaging SC2. Only way blizzard was getting in was IP and claims that kespa is not using BW fairly to the detriment of Blizzard. Blizzard seek an injunction to stop BW tournaments organised FOC. That is something only blizzard have done.
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On January 29 2014 04:37 Bagration wrote: Good riddance!
What? What did esf ever do?
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On January 29 2014 07:42 tili wrote:What? What did esf ever do? nothing, that's the point ^^ (nah, j/k but tbh the only time we have ever heard of them was when they threatened to pull from OSL).
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On January 29 2014 05:28 Stye wrote:Show nested quote +On January 28 2014 18:41 Greenei wrote: the esf prevented kespa from fucking gom in the ass at the beginning of the transition to sc2. so im sad to see them gone and kespa still around. this. 100%. Also, esf showed an example, that when u wanna win audience hearts u gotta listen to them and care about what they say (at least the reasonable bits). Compare 1st proleague or OGN (when Grubby was gonna be the english caster and the english part of casting and production was generally not given a shit about at all, most of you gotta remember those times) efforts and how it looks like now. It's all thanks to kespa seeing they don't hold a candle to how viewer friendly gstl was and deciding they gotta change or they'll always hold this 'evil corporation' look 'who bans players for writing 'p' more than twice for pause etc.'. They changed the image completely to remain competetive, but now with almost no competition in Korea (except GOM who might be aggressively taken over just as esf was) I'm not sure they will remain so 'saint' anymore. Generally, I can't believe people saying equivalence of 'good riddance', 'they didn't do anything' and 'great news' in this thread. Must be either heartless or ignorant. Also, this (if anyone prefers all-kill format in a teamleague, instead of watching ALL-MIRROR format): Show nested quote +On January 28 2014 18:53 -Celestial- wrote:Lets just hope KesPA doesn't go full on with the power-plays again and going control mad and trying to stomp out the GSL now that eSF is out of the way. -_- On January 28 2014 16:15 SetGuitarsToKill wrote: You can always stay up till 2 am to watch proleague, which is still good. Not the same. Personally I really, really dislike the format for Proleague to the point that I just don't find it interesting to watch. This confirmation that GSTL is basically completely dead is pretty devastating. No team league to watch anymore. I see you conveniently left out the part where KeSPA supported Team 8 for 2 years until they could find a sponsor. Meanwhile, the eSF forbid their players from practicing with slayers member. You also fail to mention the fact that KeSPA got the power to negotiate with big name sponsors like SKT, KT, CJ and Jin Air while the eSF is so powerless when it comes to dealing with sponsor that IM actually ask KeSPA for help.
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eSF was a good attempt but at the end of the day KeSPA had a huge advantage.
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On January 29 2014 07:39 Kheve wrote: No it doesnt. Copyright is the right to replicate. Thats all it is. Now I know you're absolutely full of it. Since I'm guessing you're a US citizen, here's the US law for you to read: http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/17/106
I would happily link you to the WIPO's view on exclusive rights granted by Copyright as well, if you cared about that. Obviously not the law, but in general what most countries tend to adhere to (for better or worse).
You might be LLB qualified, but it's fairly obvious that IP Law is not remotely within your field.
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On January 29 2014 08:03 WolfintheSheep wrote:Show nested quote +On January 29 2014 07:39 Kheve wrote: No it doesnt. Copyright is the right to replicate. Thats all it is. Now I know you're absolutely full of it. Since I'm guessing you're a US citizen, here's the US law for you to read: http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/17/106I would happily link you to the WIPO's view on exclusive rights granted by Copyright as well, if you cared about that. Obviously not the law, but in general what most countries tend to adhere to (for better or worse). You might be LLB qualified, but it's fairly obvious that IP Law is not remotely within your field.
Im not US citizen btw. Anyway that is statutary law. Its principles apply in US. But even in US Blizzard would have a hard time negating the fair use.
http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/17/107
Is holding a playing a game with an opponent fair use of the BW. obviously. Is the players streaming the game fair use?
Furthermore law principles apply across all bodies of law.
Is OSL broadcast a derivative of Blizzards copyright? or is the broadcast derivative of the copyrighted OSL tournaments? Players signed their rights to OSL when they join the tourney. Are the broadcast starcraft broadcasts? or are they OSL tournament broadcast?
http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/17/122
Furthermore
(c) No Royalty Fee Required for Certain Secondary Transmissions.— A satellite carrier whose secondary transmissions are subject to statutory licensing under paragraphs (1), (2), and (3) of subsection (a) shall have no royalty obligation for such secondary transmissions.
Thus the fact that we purchase BW is the licensing agreement. As we paid for BW starcraft and the broadcast is derived from our copy of BW I would also claim the rights that its a secondary transmission licensed by my purchase of BW. No broadcast rights was reserved for blizzard.
Lastly (5) in the case of literary, musical, dramatic, and choreographic works, pantomimes, and pictorial, graphic, or sculptural works, including the individual images of a motion picture or other audiovisual work, to display the copyrighted work publicly; and That which is specific excludes the unspecified. Thus exclusive rights to public broadcast is also not covered for games. However a tournament then can be would be covered by propriety rights. And the subsequent license given by the players to OSL.
Ofc how the judge would rule is up in the air. Im not up to date with cases after 2000. And bear in mind this is according to US copyright law which is pretty comprehensive.
I make no claims on knowledge on korean copyright law nor do I know korea case law tradition since I follow common law interpretations. However if copyright was infringed Kespa, I doubt Blizzard would sue due to BW tournaments causing damage (detrimental) to SC2. This is mostly IP rights covered by korean law.
Remember OGN holds the trademarks to OSL. Most of the copyright here can apply to OSL matches. Ie you may not rebroadcast OSL matches without their permission. And it is explicitly stated including players rights to the matches. Kespa trademarks are included naturally. So even by US law standards, Kespa/OGN do have rights to their tournaments. Blizzard thus can make exclusive derivative of starcraft, but Kespa can make exclusive derivative of OSL ie talkshows etc etc.
Bear in mind I merely gave a few minutes to the US law quoted to see how the law can apply. I make no claims on how the case law is actually decided on these laws as I have no research on those.
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On January 29 2014 08:54 Kheve wrote:Show nested quote +On January 29 2014 08:03 WolfintheSheep wrote:On January 29 2014 07:39 Kheve wrote: No it doesnt. Copyright is the right to replicate. Thats all it is. Now I know you're absolutely full of it. Since I'm guessing you're a US citizen, here's the US law for you to read: http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/17/106I would happily link you to the WIPO's view on exclusive rights granted by Copyright as well, if you cared about that. Obviously not the law, but in general what most countries tend to adhere to (for better or worse). You might be LLB qualified, but it's fairly obvious that IP Law is not remotely within your field. Im not US citizen btw. Anyway that is statutary law. Its principles apply in US. But even in US Blizzard would have a hard time negating the fair use. http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/17/107Is holding a playing a game with an opponent fair use of the BW. obviously. Is the players streaming the game fair use? Furthermore law principles apply across all bodies of law. Is OSL broadcast a derivative of Blizzards copyright? or is the broadcast derivative of the copyrighted OSL tournaments? Players signed their rights to OSL when they join the tourney. Are the broadcast starcraft broadcasts? or are they OSL tournament broadcast? http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/17/122Furthermore (c) No Royalty Fee Required for Certain Secondary Transmissions.— A satellite carrier whose secondary transmissions are subject to statutory licensing under paragraphs (1), (2), and (3) of subsection (a) shall have no royalty obligation for such secondary transmissions. Thus the fact that we purchase BW is the licensing agreement. As we paid for BW starcraft and the broadcast is derived from our copy of BW I would also claim the rights that its a secondary transmission licensed by my purchase of BW. No broadcast rights was reserved for blizzard. Lastly (5) in the case of literary, musical, dramatic, and choreographic works, pantomimes, and pictorial, graphic, or sculptural works, including the individual images of a motion picture or other audiovisual work, to display the copyrighted work publicly; and That which is specific excludes the unspecified. Thus exclusive rights to public broadcast is also not covered for games. However a tournament then can be would be covered by propriety rights. And the subsequent license given by the players to OSL. Ofc how the judge would rule is up in the air. Im not up to date with cases after 2000. And bear in mind this is according to US copyright law which is pretty comprehensive. I make no claims on knowledge on korean copyright law nor do I know korea case law tradition since I follow common law interpretations. However if copyright was infringed Kespa, I doubt Blizzard would sue due to BW tournaments causing damage (detrimental) to SC2. This is mostly IP rights covered by korean law. Remember OGN holds the trademarks to OSL. Most of the copyright here can apply to OSL matches. Ie you may not rebroadcast OSL matches without their permission. And it is explicitly stated including players rights to the matches. Kespa trademarks are included naturally. So even by US law standards, Kespa/OGN do have rights to their tournaments
Man Wolfinthesheep just got punked.
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On January 29 2014 08:55 Xiphos wrote:Show nested quote +On January 29 2014 08:54 Kheve wrote:On January 29 2014 08:03 WolfintheSheep wrote:On January 29 2014 07:39 Kheve wrote: No it doesnt. Copyright is the right to replicate. Thats all it is. Now I know you're absolutely full of it. Since I'm guessing you're a US citizen, here's the US law for you to read: http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/17/106I would happily link you to the WIPO's view on exclusive rights granted by Copyright as well, if you cared about that. Obviously not the law, but in general what most countries tend to adhere to (for better or worse). You might be LLB qualified, but it's fairly obvious that IP Law is not remotely within your field. Im not US citizen btw. Anyway that is statutary law. Its principles apply in US. But even in US Blizzard would have a hard time negating the fair use. http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/17/107Is holding a playing a game with an opponent fair use of the BW. obviously. Is the players streaming the game fair use? Furthermore law principles apply across all bodies of law. Is OSL broadcast a derivative of Blizzards copyright? or is the broadcast derivative of the copyrighted OSL tournaments? Players signed their rights to OSL when they join the tourney. Are the broadcast starcraft broadcasts? or are they OSL tournament broadcast? http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/17/122Furthermore (c) No Royalty Fee Required for Certain Secondary Transmissions.— A satellite carrier whose secondary transmissions are subject to statutory licensing under paragraphs (1), (2), and (3) of subsection (a) shall have no royalty obligation for such secondary transmissions. Thus the fact that we purchase BW is the licensing agreement. As we paid for BW starcraft and the broadcast is derived from our copy of BW I would also claim the rights that its a secondary transmission licensed by my purchase of BW. No broadcast rights was reserved for blizzard. Lastly (5) in the case of literary, musical, dramatic, and choreographic works, pantomimes, and pictorial, graphic, or sculptural works, including the individual images of a motion picture or other audiovisual work, to display the copyrighted work publicly; and That which is specific excludes the unspecified. Thus exclusive rights to public broadcast is also not covered for games. However a tournament then can be would be covered by propriety rights. And the subsequent license given by the players to OSL. Ofc how the judge would rule is up in the air. Im not up to date with cases after 2000. And bear in mind this is according to US copyright law which is pretty comprehensive. I make no claims on knowledge on korean copyright law nor do I know korea case law tradition since I follow common law interpretations. However if copyright was infringed Kespa, I doubt Blizzard would sue due to BW tournaments causing damage (detrimental) to SC2. This is mostly IP rights covered by korean law. Remember OGN holds the trademarks to OSL. Most of the copyright here can apply to OSL matches. Ie you may not rebroadcast OSL matches without their permission. And it is explicitly stated including players rights to the matches. Kespa trademarks are included naturally. So even by US law standards, Kespa/OGN do have rights to their tournaments Man Wolfinthesheep just got punked. Not really, he looked up a bunch of laws from another country that have nothing to do with the case that Blizzard filed. The copy and paste tool is pretty cool, but does not mean he properly applied the law correctly. There is no guarantee that anything he just cited in on point. IP and copyright law is super complicated and you can't just copy two regulations and say "look I'm right". Finally, we should trust the attorneys who were in the country, working on the case, rather than one from another country who's laws may not be similar. He also cites fair use, which is used in artistic works that don't involve making money and is very far from on point.
I personally have limited knowledge into IP law, but I do know that Blizzard was able to get a settlement out of Kespa. The fact that Blizzard prevailed in getting the broadcast rights and Kespa settled shows that Kespa was not 100% confident they would win the case outright. At the end of the day, no judge is going to tell Blizzard they don't have the right to decide who broadcast their IP.
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On January 29 2014 09:06 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On January 29 2014 08:55 Xiphos wrote:On January 29 2014 08:54 Kheve wrote:On January 29 2014 08:03 WolfintheSheep wrote:On January 29 2014 07:39 Kheve wrote: No it doesnt. Copyright is the right to replicate. Thats all it is. Now I know you're absolutely full of it. Since I'm guessing you're a US citizen, here's the US law for you to read: http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/17/106I would happily link you to the WIPO's view on exclusive rights granted by Copyright as well, if you cared about that. Obviously not the law, but in general what most countries tend to adhere to (for better or worse). You might be LLB qualified, but it's fairly obvious that IP Law is not remotely within your field. Im not US citizen btw. Anyway that is statutary law. Its principles apply in US. But even in US Blizzard would have a hard time negating the fair use. http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/17/107Is holding a playing a game with an opponent fair use of the BW. obviously. Is the players streaming the game fair use? Furthermore law principles apply across all bodies of law. Is OSL broadcast a derivative of Blizzards copyright? or is the broadcast derivative of the copyrighted OSL tournaments? Players signed their rights to OSL when they join the tourney. Are the broadcast starcraft broadcasts? or are they OSL tournament broadcast? http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/17/122Furthermore (c) No Royalty Fee Required for Certain Secondary Transmissions.— A satellite carrier whose secondary transmissions are subject to statutory licensing under paragraphs (1), (2), and (3) of subsection (a) shall have no royalty obligation for such secondary transmissions. Thus the fact that we purchase BW is the licensing agreement. As we paid for BW starcraft and the broadcast is derived from our copy of BW I would also claim the rights that its a secondary transmission licensed by my purchase of BW. No broadcast rights was reserved for blizzard. Lastly (5) in the case of literary, musical, dramatic, and choreographic works, pantomimes, and pictorial, graphic, or sculptural works, including the individual images of a motion picture or other audiovisual work, to display the copyrighted work publicly; and That which is specific excludes the unspecified. Thus exclusive rights to public broadcast is also not covered for games. However a tournament then can be would be covered by propriety rights. And the subsequent license given by the players to OSL. Ofc how the judge would rule is up in the air. Im not up to date with cases after 2000. And bear in mind this is according to US copyright law which is pretty comprehensive. I make no claims on knowledge on korean copyright law nor do I know korea case law tradition since I follow common law interpretations. However if copyright was infringed Kespa, I doubt Blizzard would sue due to BW tournaments causing damage (detrimental) to SC2. This is mostly IP rights covered by korean law. Remember OGN holds the trademarks to OSL. Most of the copyright here can apply to OSL matches. Ie you may not rebroadcast OSL matches without their permission. And it is explicitly stated including players rights to the matches. Kespa trademarks are included naturally. So even by US law standards, Kespa/OGN do have rights to their tournaments Man Wolfinthesheep just got punked. Not really, he looked up a bunch of laws from another country that have nothing to do with the case that Blizzard filed. The copy and paste tool is pretty cool, but does not mean he properly applied the law correctly. There is no guarantee that anything he just cited in on point. IP and copyright law is super complicated and you can't just copy two regulations and say "look I'm right". Finally, we should trust the attorneys who were in the country, working on the case, rather than one from another country who's laws may not be similar. He also cites fair use, which is used in artistic works that don't involve making money and is very far from on point. I personally have limited knowledge into IP law, but I do know that Blizzard was able to get a settlement out of Kespa. The fact that Blizzard prevailed in getting the broadcast rights and Kespa settled shows that Kespa was not 100% confident they would win the case outright. At the end of the day, no judge is going to tell Blizzard they don't have the right to decide who broadcast their IP.
Wrong again. Why would Blizzard settle if they can 100% win? The settlement gave all OSL trademarks and rights to their tournaments to OGN and MBC. All of the osl or msl matches belongs to OGN and MBC in the settlement. All the BW matches we love in the early days all belong to OGN and MBC.
All the settlement does is affirm Blizzard rights to SC2 which was never questioned since Blizzard SC2 T&C covered many of those things thus falls under contract law.
What blizzard is most afraid of thus they settled was the courts settling the esports issue once and for all. Ie courts could find that Esports is a fair use of copyrighted products and that organizers owns all rights to the tournaments. Thus setting a precedent to potentially challenge even contractual terms of the SC2 T&C.
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On January 29 2014 09:19 Kheve wrote:Show nested quote +On January 29 2014 09:06 Plansix wrote:On January 29 2014 08:55 Xiphos wrote:On January 29 2014 08:54 Kheve wrote:On January 29 2014 08:03 WolfintheSheep wrote:On January 29 2014 07:39 Kheve wrote: No it doesnt. Copyright is the right to replicate. Thats all it is. Now I know you're absolutely full of it. Since I'm guessing you're a US citizen, here's the US law for you to read: http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/17/106I would happily link you to the WIPO's view on exclusive rights granted by Copyright as well, if you cared about that. Obviously not the law, but in general what most countries tend to adhere to (for better or worse). You might be LLB qualified, but it's fairly obvious that IP Law is not remotely within your field. Im not US citizen btw. Anyway that is statutary law. Its principles apply in US. But even in US Blizzard would have a hard time negating the fair use. http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/17/107Is holding a playing a game with an opponent fair use of the BW. obviously. Is the players streaming the game fair use? Furthermore law principles apply across all bodies of law. Is OSL broadcast a derivative of Blizzards copyright? or is the broadcast derivative of the copyrighted OSL tournaments? Players signed their rights to OSL when they join the tourney. Are the broadcast starcraft broadcasts? or are they OSL tournament broadcast? http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/17/122Furthermore (c) No Royalty Fee Required for Certain Secondary Transmissions.— A satellite carrier whose secondary transmissions are subject to statutory licensing under paragraphs (1), (2), and (3) of subsection (a) shall have no royalty obligation for such secondary transmissions. Thus the fact that we purchase BW is the licensing agreement. As we paid for BW starcraft and the broadcast is derived from our copy of BW I would also claim the rights that its a secondary transmission licensed by my purchase of BW. No broadcast rights was reserved for blizzard. Lastly (5) in the case of literary, musical, dramatic, and choreographic works, pantomimes, and pictorial, graphic, or sculptural works, including the individual images of a motion picture or other audiovisual work, to display the copyrighted work publicly; and That which is specific excludes the unspecified. Thus exclusive rights to public broadcast is also not covered for games. However a tournament then can be would be covered by propriety rights. And the subsequent license given by the players to OSL. Ofc how the judge would rule is up in the air. Im not up to date with cases after 2000. And bear in mind this is according to US copyright law which is pretty comprehensive. I make no claims on knowledge on korean copyright law nor do I know korea case law tradition since I follow common law interpretations. However if copyright was infringed Kespa, I doubt Blizzard would sue due to BW tournaments causing damage (detrimental) to SC2. This is mostly IP rights covered by korean law. Remember OGN holds the trademarks to OSL. Most of the copyright here can apply to OSL matches. Ie you may not rebroadcast OSL matches without their permission. And it is explicitly stated including players rights to the matches. Kespa trademarks are included naturally. So even by US law standards, Kespa/OGN do have rights to their tournaments Man Wolfinthesheep just got punked. Not really, he looked up a bunch of laws from another country that have nothing to do with the case that Blizzard filed. The copy and paste tool is pretty cool, but does not mean he properly applied the law correctly. There is no guarantee that anything he just cited in on point. IP and copyright law is super complicated and you can't just copy two regulations and say "look I'm right". Finally, we should trust the attorneys who were in the country, working on the case, rather than one from another country who's laws may not be similar. He also cites fair use, which is used in artistic works that don't involve making money and is very far from on point. I personally have limited knowledge into IP law, but I do know that Blizzard was able to get a settlement out of Kespa. The fact that Blizzard prevailed in getting the broadcast rights and Kespa settled shows that Kespa was not 100% confident they would win the case outright. At the end of the day, no judge is going to tell Blizzard they don't have the right to decide who broadcast their IP. Wrong again. Why would Blizzard settle if they can 100% win? The settlement gave all OSL trademarks and rights to their tournaments to OGN and MBC. All of the osl or msl matches belongs to OGN and MBC in the settlement. All the BW matches we love in the early days all belong to OGN and MBC. All the settlement does is affirm Blizzard rights to SC2 which was never questioned since Blizzard SC2 T&C covered many of those things thus falls under contract law. What blizzard is most afraid of thus they settled was the courts settling the esports issue once and for all. Ie courts could find that Esports is a fair use of copyrighted products and that organizers owns all rights to the tournaments. Thus setting a precedent to potentially challenge even contractual terms of the SC2 T&C. Yeah, it was equally(if not more so) likely that it would go the other way. That is why most law suits end is settlement, because neither side is sure they will win. Again, we are not experts on Korea law and mostly talking out of our asses, but it appears in the end that both sides got what they wanted out of the deal.
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So KESPAAAAAAAAA won... ;'/
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Lol why are people who are not IP lawyers trying to discuss IP law
I'm not an IP lawyer but I know that people who are NOT IP lawyers are not even remotely qualified to discuss it. That's why IP lawyers exist in the first place. They have to go through years of school and are paid big bucks. People are trying to reason things out on their own and discuss what would make sense logically. That's not how it works.
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On January 29 2014 08:55 Xiphos wrote:Show nested quote +On January 29 2014 08:54 Kheve wrote:On January 29 2014 08:03 WolfintheSheep wrote:On January 29 2014 07:39 Kheve wrote: No it doesnt. Copyright is the right to replicate. Thats all it is. Now I know you're absolutely full of it. Since I'm guessing you're a US citizen, here's the US law for you to read: http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/17/106I would happily link you to the WIPO's view on exclusive rights granted by Copyright as well, if you cared about that. Obviously not the law, but in general what most countries tend to adhere to (for better or worse). You might be LLB qualified, but it's fairly obvious that IP Law is not remotely within your field. Im not US citizen btw. Anyway that is statutary law. Its principles apply in US. But even in US Blizzard would have a hard time negating the fair use. http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/17/107Is holding a playing a game with an opponent fair use of the BW. obviously. Is the players streaming the game fair use? Furthermore law principles apply across all bodies of law. Is OSL broadcast a derivative of Blizzards copyright? or is the broadcast derivative of the copyrighted OSL tournaments? Players signed their rights to OSL when they join the tourney. Are the broadcast starcraft broadcasts? or are they OSL tournament broadcast? http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/17/122Furthermore (c) No Royalty Fee Required for Certain Secondary Transmissions.— A satellite carrier whose secondary transmissions are subject to statutory licensing under paragraphs (1), (2), and (3) of subsection (a) shall have no royalty obligation for such secondary transmissions. Thus the fact that we purchase BW is the licensing agreement. As we paid for BW starcraft and the broadcast is derived from our copy of BW I would also claim the rights that its a secondary transmission licensed by my purchase of BW. No broadcast rights was reserved for blizzard. Lastly (5) in the case of literary, musical, dramatic, and choreographic works, pantomimes, and pictorial, graphic, or sculptural works, including the individual images of a motion picture or other audiovisual work, to display the copyrighted work publicly; and That which is specific excludes the unspecified. Thus exclusive rights to public broadcast is also not covered for games. However a tournament then can be would be covered by propriety rights. And the subsequent license given by the players to OSL. Ofc how the judge would rule is up in the air. Im not up to date with cases after 2000. And bear in mind this is according to US copyright law which is pretty comprehensive. I make no claims on knowledge on korean copyright law nor do I know korea case law tradition since I follow common law interpretations. However if copyright was infringed Kespa, I doubt Blizzard would sue due to BW tournaments causing damage (detrimental) to SC2. This is mostly IP rights covered by korean law. Remember OGN holds the trademarks to OSL. Most of the copyright here can apply to OSL matches. Ie you may not rebroadcast OSL matches without their permission. And it is explicitly stated including players rights to the matches. Kespa trademarks are included naturally. So even by US law standards, Kespa/OGN do have rights to their tournaments Man Wolfinthesheep just got punked.
Lol, not even close.
He thinks playing a game of Starcraft on stream is what "Secondary Transmission" refers to.
He also thinks wording like "other audiovisual work" or "pictorial, graphic...works" don't cover games.
If he really is a law student, he's a pretty piss poor one.
EDIT: Look, I'm not saying I know what a court or a judge would decide on, because IP Case Law is weak, and fair use claims generally are untested. But saying that copyright is only about the right to copy is blatantly wrong, when it's written in (basically) plain English in most country's laws, and in multiple international agreements.
And the part about secondary transmissions is especially hilarious, because that refers to rebroadcasting of someone else's work. For example, Universal had to pay royalties to the Tolkein Estate to make and distribute Lord of the Rings. TV Stations, Cable networks, Netflix, etc. don't because they are secondary transmissions of a product that has already paid for licensing.
It's also the same exclusion that allows Twitch.tv to broadcast tournament content without needing a license for that event...because they're not producing, only acting as a transmission source.
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I'm sorry for sparking up the Kheve IP law debate, I hope everyone can drop it since it's not relevant to eSF.
As for people saying "good riddance" and equivalents, what did eSF ever do to you and your favourite players? Seriously, the only thing I can think of is kespa fanboyism, and BW player prejudice. eSF uniting all the teams in the scene (at the time) under one flag was an amazing and glorious moment, and gave the scene (which was overinflated) some coherence.
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United States97244 Posts
I imagine most of the people saying stuff like that are Slayers fans who are still bitter about the whole practice blackout thing among other stuff where basically every team but Prime refused to practice with Slayers. Apparently Prime just practiced with everyone anyways because they also practiced with a lot of the kespa teams early on
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Sheeeeeeeeeit that's bad for esports.
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On January 29 2014 10:15 xAdra wrote: I'm sorry for sparking up the Kheve IP law debate, I hope everyone can drop it since it's not relevant to eSF.
As for people saying "good riddance" and equivalents, what did eSF ever do to you and your favourite players? Seriously, the only thing I can think of is kespa fanboyism, and BW player prejudice. eSF uniting all the teams in the scene (at the time) under one flag was an amazing and glorious moment, and gave the scene (which was overinflated) some coherence. It's the other way around, they didn't do anything. They were supposed to be governing body, but they held no real power. Also listening to Incontrol right now speaking about them on ITG, he mentioned they were screwing around foreign tournament organizers threatening to pull out all Koreans from tournaments if all doesn't go according to their conditions (see NASL, where it didn't go as per their conditions. Incontrol implied there was more also with other tournaments, that never got out).
Also mentioned that they were threatening players who wanted to transfer from eSF teams to other ones that if they transfer they will not be allowed to train with eSF players, play in eSF leagues and ever return to eSF team (not hard to beliebe - see, Slayers for something similar). Also apparently they were not only not paying most of their players anything (that's widely known fact) but also they were telling them just being in progaming house is an honor and more they deserve. Also some of the teams were taking half of the winnings from their players in order to 'operate the team-house' and eSF knew about it and did nothing.
He characterized them well in the show imo, they were that little bastard brother to Kespa, who killed your puppy when he was little and then grew up into serial killer. Governing body without any real power? What were they good for anyway? When IM had problems with LG, they ran to Kespa for help, even when they were still members of eSF...
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eSF served its purpose as a spare tire, it's time to switch back to regular tire, can't rely on spare tire forever.
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On January 29 2014 10:39 Ammanas wrote:Show nested quote +On January 29 2014 10:15 xAdra wrote: I'm sorry for sparking up the Kheve IP law debate, I hope everyone can drop it since it's not relevant to eSF.
As for people saying "good riddance" and equivalents, what did eSF ever do to you and your favourite players? Seriously, the only thing I can think of is kespa fanboyism, and BW player prejudice. eSF uniting all the teams in the scene (at the time) under one flag was an amazing and glorious moment, and gave the scene (which was overinflated) some coherence. It's the other way around, they didn't do anything. They were supposed to be governing body, but they held no real power. Also listening to Incontrol right now speaking about them on ITG, he mentioned they were screwing around foreign tournament organizers threatening to pull out all Koreans from tournaments if all doesn't go according to their conditions (see NASL, where it didn't go as per their conditions. Incontrol implied there was more also with other tournaments, that never got out). Also mentioned that they were threatening players who wanted to transfer from eSF teams to other ones that if they transfer they will not be allowed to train with eSF players, play in eSF leagues and ever return to eSF team (not hard to beliebe - see, Slayers for something similar). Also apparently they were not only not paying most of their players anything (that's widely known fact) but also they were telling them just being in progaming house is an honor and more they deserve. Also some of the teams were taking half of the winnings from their players in order to 'operate the team-house' and eSF knew about it and did nothing. He characterized them well in the show imo, they were that little bastard brother to Kespa, who killed your puppy when he was little and then grew up into serial killer. Governing body without any real power? What were they good for anyway? When IM had problems with LG, they ran to Kespa for help, even when they were still members of eSF...
Oh schnap, I always knew that there were some shady dealings inside ESF's infrastructure but god damn didn't know that they were filled with THIS kind of scumbagary.
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On January 29 2014 12:18 Xiphos wrote:Show nested quote +On January 29 2014 10:39 Ammanas wrote:On January 29 2014 10:15 xAdra wrote: I'm sorry for sparking up the Kheve IP law debate, I hope everyone can drop it since it's not relevant to eSF.
As for people saying "good riddance" and equivalents, what did eSF ever do to you and your favourite players? Seriously, the only thing I can think of is kespa fanboyism, and BW player prejudice. eSF uniting all the teams in the scene (at the time) under one flag was an amazing and glorious moment, and gave the scene (which was overinflated) some coherence. It's the other way around, they didn't do anything. They were supposed to be governing body, but they held no real power. Also listening to Incontrol right now speaking about them on ITG, he mentioned they were screwing around foreign tournament organizers threatening to pull out all Koreans from tournaments if all doesn't go according to their conditions (see NASL, where it didn't go as per their conditions. Incontrol implied there was more also with other tournaments, that never got out). Also mentioned that they were threatening players who wanted to transfer from eSF teams to other ones that if they transfer they will not be allowed to train with eSF players, play in eSF leagues and ever return to eSF team (not hard to beliebe - see, Slayers for something similar). Also apparently they were not only not paying most of their players anything (that's widely known fact) but also they were telling them just being in progaming house is an honor and more they deserve. Also some of the teams were taking half of the winnings from their players in order to 'operate the team-house' and eSF knew about it and did nothing. He characterized them well in the show imo, they were that little bastard brother to Kespa, who killed your puppy when he was little and then grew up into serial killer. Governing body without any real power? What were they good for anyway? When IM had problems with LG, they ran to Kespa for help, even when they were still members of eSF... Oh schnap, I always knew that there were some shady dealings inside ESF's infrastructure but god damn didn't know that they were filled with THIS kind of scumbagary.
There are some Slayers fans here on TL that hate ESF with a passion, and for a good reason.
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Surprised that no one mentions all the incidents around TSL. This had more to do with sc2con but they were basically the same amateur so-called "governing body" whos only good at lying & bullying
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It's always nice to know that teamliquid is full of law professionals who have intimate knowledge of the inner workings of IP law.
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On January 29 2014 13:39 Eventine wrote: It's always nice to know that the internet is full of law professionals who have intimate knowledge of the inner workings of IP law. Fixed that for you. Everyone is an expert on the internet.
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TLADT24917 Posts
On January 29 2014 09:30 ZenithM wrote: So KESPAAAAAAAAA won... ;'/ Well Kespa became the head body for Korean esports like 6 months back or something. I guess you can think of it as Kespa won lol but esf wasn't doing much and was likely to eventually disband.
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On January 29 2014 13:53 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On January 29 2014 13:39 Eventine wrote: It's always nice to know that the internet is full of law professionals who have intimate knowledge of the inner workings of IP law. Fixed that for you. Everyone is an expert on the internet.
It's because the internet contains the knowledge to make us experts. Don't hate on people trying to question things!
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Well this was expected... but let's hope that KeSPA doesn't change back to its old ways again... that would be real setback for eSports in Korea.
Even more let's hope they allow players to trash talk during games like in the beginning, that would be great... But I'm dreaming again.
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I hope ST and Azubu can join KeSPA. They're too late to the party for the current Proleague but joining now will secure a better future, hoping for all the best to the players.
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They had some fine moments.
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[B]On January 29 2014 21:58 Khai wrote:[/ I hope ST and Azubu can join KeSPA. They're too late to the party for the current Proleague but joining now will secure a better future, hoping for all the best to the players.
Azubu is most definitely like to disband .
ST, depending on whether or not they pick up new players to fill their roster which is not happening so chances are that they are on their way out.
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Damn i made i mini post about this on my clan sites and forgot to mention all the bad things they did too I have to correct my article damnit.
That's why you don't choose someone that have no memory for being your writer. Oh well :p
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I'd love to see people's reactions 2-3 years ago if a thread "eSF disbands, kespa takes everything over" suddenly popped up. Everyone would just roll over and cry for - still young - sc2.
You're so quick to forgive kespa, but won't forgive eSF for much less heinous crimes? How's 'not doing stuff' worse than 'doing bad stuff'. Monopoly is always bad. People saying "yeah finally scene isn't divided" - what? Would you be just as happy when ur ISP was the only one in your country, being able to jack prices and content control to it's own whim?
Honestly, just think of this thread if it happened 2-3 years ago. Then ponder on how quickly u change sides.
And finally, stop talking like eSF destroyed slayers. slayers destroyed slayers.
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On January 30 2014 02:48 Stye wrote: I'd love to see people's reactions 2-3 years ago if a thread "eSF disbands, kespa takes everything over" suddenly popped up. Everyone would just roll over and cry for - still young - sc2.
You're so quick to forgive kespa, but won't forgive eSF for much less heinous crimes? How's 'not doing stuff' worse than 'doing bad stuff'. Monopoly is always bad. People saying "yeah finally scene isn't divided" - what? Would you be just as happy when ur ISP was the only one in your country, being able to jack prices and content control to it's own whim?
Honestly, just think of this thread if it happened 2-3 years ago. Then ponder on how quickly u change sides.
And finally, stop talking like eSF destroyed slayers. slayers destroyed slayers.
eSF didn't destroy Slayers, but they sure as hell were glad to see Slayers gone, and they did what they could to kill the team. Fuck Coach Won, sleazy two-faced liar. Publicly he'd talk about growing eSports and cooperation and fine rhetoric, but he was more than happy to impose practice bans on an entire team just because they weren't an eSF team.
eSF is basically a shittier version of Kespa. They do all the things that people hate Kespa for doing, but they were so weak and incompetent that they at least did less damage. The organization couldn't even keep its teams from all dying off or defecting. For all the cutthroat stuff Kespa does, at least it maintains a strong organization.
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On January 29 2014 21:58 Khai wrote: I hope ST and Azubu can join KeSPA. They're too late to the party for the current Proleague but joining now will secure a better future, hoping for all the best to the players. Would be cool to see some ST and Azubu players partnered with Proleague teams.
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On January 30 2014 05:34 Die4Ever wrote:Show nested quote +On January 29 2014 21:58 Khai wrote: I hope ST and Azubu can join KeSPA. They're too late to the party for the current Proleague but joining now will secure a better future, hoping for all the best to the players. Would be cool to see some ST and Azubu players partnered with Proleague teams.
Oh Yeah.. ST_KT_Life would be cool ;p
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rip esf.. tough news for sc2
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they just can't beat Kespa with government support
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Expected, but still unfortunate. Kespa came into SC2 strong
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I think it would be Great to see some of the GSTL teams all make the Switch to KeSPA and just make it a bigger league. Maybe make 2 different divisions of 6 or something along those lines. I don't think it will WateR down the product much to have a bigger league. Maybe just more interesting matchups and results since maybe an 0-3 team Has just played really good teams and will end up beating a 3-0 team that hasn't played anyone good yet. More hype and I think a better Way to judge WhO the best teams really are. Just a thought.
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Good riddance, kespa is the future.
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