eSports Federation (eSF) disbands

On January 28 2014 15:55 iLoveKT wrote:
They should've done this 3 months ago so ST got to join PL.

On January 28 2014 15:57 lichter wrote:
But how will Azubu remind us that they are a real team now?

On January 28 2014 16:13 Wafflelisk wrote:
I know we all saw it coming and everything, but I'm gonna be so nostalgic over staying up till 2 a.m and watching the GSL someday.. I think I already am

On January 28 2014 16:19 ivancype wrote:
Were Axiom-Acer affiliated with eSF or just participating in GSTL?

On January 28 2014 16:25 -Kyo- wrote:


Yes, just to clarify: eSF is run by the team managers and organizers of non-kespa teams. GSL is run by GOMTV which is completely independent. This means, more than likely, the ultimate end to GSTL as there is proleague. However, qualifiers for WCS are run through GOMTV (Code A/S) so they will stuff have a lot of content to provide on that front.

On January 28 2014 16:28 Nerevar wrote:

I can still see GSTL as a shorter special event kind of league during Proleague's off-season assuming GOM can negotiate a nice deal with KeSPA.

On January 28 2014 15:52 opterown wrote:
only inevitable I guess, they did what they had to when they were around, and kespa is a bit less anal these days so it's ok

On January 28 2014 15:57 lichter wrote:
But how will Azubu remind us that they are a real team now?

On January 28 2014 18:05 JustPassingBy wrote:


Wait, are you sure Azubu was even part of the eSF?

On January 28 2014 18:08 shin_toss wrote:
so no more GSTL

On January 28 2014 15:56 DiMano wrote:
I hope StarTale will not disband and join SPL. It would be nice if they could join Round 2 but the schedule and other other thigs are already prepared so it is almost impossible to happen

On January 28 2014 18:35 Nyarly wrote:
WHAAAAAT ?
No gsl ?
seriously ? é_è
sad pandas everywhere

On January 28 2014 16:15 SetGuitarsToKill wrote:


You can always stay up till 2 am to watch proleague, which is still good.

On January 28 2014 17:33 Big J wrote:
shit.
Now we have to hope for blizzard to put all their influence behind GSLs survival, else Kespa will probably just turn it off the moment they find a date for a tournament of their own.

On January 28 2014 19:03 The_Red_Viper wrote:

There is just no time really, they have to prepare for proleague and the individual tournaments already, no way another teamleague would be able to run at the same time

On January 28 2014 19:39 bokchoi wrote:
Honestly, to the general public it never seemed like eSF actually did anything. The only thing I've ever heard about eSF was that whole SlayerS drama.

On January 28 2014 19:39 bokchoi wrote:
Honestly, to the general public it never seemed like eSF actually did anything. The only thing I've ever heard about eSF was that whole SlayerS drama.

On January 28 2014 18:47 RoninKenshin wrote:
I don't think it's a bad thing, but people really aren't giving esf any credit. They were the ones that put Starcraft 2 first, while Kespa refused to join out of stubbornness and spite. Then while esf put out open arms when kespa switched over, kespa instead refused to cooperate and demanded control, slowly killing the scene. Esf and gom have only tried to make SC2 great, and laid the foundation for what it is today.

While their power was small, I think esf was a great orgnization with heart. Thanks for your hard work esf!!

On January 28 2014 19:53 Ammanas wrote:

lol no, they didn't join because Blizzard gave GOM exclusive rights...

On January 28 2014 20:17 JustPassingBy wrote:


Eh, you make it sound as if Blizzard gave GOM exclusive rights after KespA transitioned to sc2, is that really right? :o
Such a long time ago, and my memory isn't the best...

On January 28 2014 20:10 Big-t wrote:
Will this affect GSL and GSTL in any way?

On January 28 2014 20:56 Kheve wrote:
Finally this arrogant fake organization bites the dust. Their only act in their existence was to bully Slayers just to show that they are a real organization. No rules no tournament no nothing, just gang up to bully someone. All stick and no carrot. Bleh now finally sc2 have a chance (tiny one) in korea.

On January 28 2014 20:22 Ammanas wrote:

nah, they gave GOM exclusive rights before SC2 was released, meaning Kespa was unable to switch as their partners at the time were OnGameNet and MBC Game. That was all done because Blizzard asked Kespa to give them money for BW tournaments when they realized it existed about a year or two before SC2 was released. Obviously Kespa didn't want to as they were the ones who nurtured the BW scene from the ground. They sued Kespa afaik (was eventually solved outside of court) and gave GOM the exclusive rights in order to manipulate Kespa out of SC2 scene. Basically a Blizzard power struggle with Kespa is to be blamed for SC2 not being as big as it could/should in Korea.

On January 28 2014 20:56 Kheve wrote:
Finally this arrogant fake organization bites the dust. Their only act in their existence was to bully Slayers just to show that they are a real organization. No rules no tournament no nothing, just gang up to bully someone. All stick and no carrot. Bleh now finally sc2 have a chance (tiny one) in korea.

On January 28 2014 15:57 lichter wrote:
But how will Azubu remind us that they are a real team now?

On January 28 2014 21:18 opterown wrote:

don't be an idiot, they saved sc2 by manfighting kespa over the GSL boycotting issue


or you could see it as a kespa power struggle for not paying dues *shrug

On January 28 2014 21:18 opterown wrote:

don't be an idiot, they saved sc2 by manfighting kespa over the GSL boycotting issue


or you could see it as a kespa power struggle for not paying dues *shrug

On January 28 2014 22:24 Ammanas wrote:

Problem is, Kespa doesn't have money. They are non-profit organization sanctioned by government, everything they earn goes straight back to esport scene. What more, Kespa tournaments are for sure not profitable for them nowadays, they are only running on sponsorships. And I believe that was also most probably true in BW.

Also, Blizzard didn't have ANY rights for any money from Korean BW scene. Even if Kespa would be turning billions of profit, it was them who made the BW esports. Yes, Blizzard made the game, but other than that nothing. They were not at all interested in that scene even, until SC2 development started. It's like if some heir to the guy who 'invented' tennis was asking for money from ATP or football/FIFA or golf/PGA or any other comparison you want to think about.

In the end, I want to speculate - after the matchfixing scandal, I believe nobody would be happier more than Kespa to switch to SC2 asap. But Blizzard tried to push them into corner and they unfortunately couldn't. So yes, I blame Blizzard for eSF existing in the first place and what's worse I blame them for the state of SC2 in Korea right now even though now they are doing their best to save anything that's left. I wonder if it will be enough though.

On January 28 2014 22:39 Plansix wrote:

Kespa doesn't have money? Lol? You do know that all the oil companies I the would could form a non-profit and as long as they don't make a profit at the end of the year they still qualify. Even if they are loaded.

On January 28 2014 23:01 Kheve wrote:


Ahh thats because of the corporate practices in the west. In the west accounting practise generally allows u to cook the books as long as u are not caught. Enron and such were exceptions because they sucks at cheating otherwise its fine. Thats western culture. And its accepted evidenced by the huge amount of Ponzis like Madoff. So long as you;re not caught, its the right thing to do. Rules and regulations tend to be frowned on because it infringes on free market (suckers will be suckered). Even the banking crisis was not sufficient impetus for federal oversight.

In the Korea sadly such things are frowned upon, whistleblowing will happen and ppl will go to jail. In china corporate malpractice can even earn a bullet (And stay of executions are usually for mere months instead of years). Furthermore Kespa is not owned by anyone thus every stakeholder have equal rights (though some are more equal). The current Kespa president is a congressman. Plenty of of willing whistleblower who would love a scandal if there were even any hanky panky they are supposed to be involved in.

On January 28 2014 16:28 Nerevar wrote:

I can still see GSTL as a shorter special event kind of league during Proleague's off-season assuming GOM can negotiate a nice deal with KeSPA.

On January 28 2014 23:11 Crytash wrote:


Is this a troll? Bribing has a huge history in China, i would argue that there is "cheating" in every country of the world and let us not talk about Korea, i just have to say Lee Kun-hee! 130 million $ in slush funds was it, right?

Organised crime is always a problem. In every country - to claim other wise is gullible.

On January 28 2014 23:39 Milkis wrote:
man thinking about it now i wonder what would have happened if blizzard didn't do all of this nonsense transition stuff and just let kespa teams run SC2 and BW teams separately

On January 28 2014 23:35 Kheve wrote:


No one said china is a paradise -_-. Its the consequence and social acceptability. Bribing is called lobbying in the west and the bribes are called gifts. Its legal in the west. Its illegal in china and 20 years ago, every few months we see some politician gets a bullet (China has the biggest civil service in the world due to its population). These days China are becoming more westernised and only gets jail. 20 years later maybe lobbying can be legal and gifts can even be publicly recorded and accepted.

Accounting practices in china is very strict. lots of government restrictions and rules. Thats also why lots of big china company prefer to list in western markets. The western accounting practice is very open-minded and cheating (by asian confucian standards) is not frowned upon.

That is the most important difference between Kespa and western companies. No one owns kespa. The organization is powerful but no one owns it but the esports scene itself. Its exactly like FIFA etc who have billions in revenue but all that money MUST be funneled back into the football. Sepp Blater might be very powerful but he is no way touching the billions of FIFA revenue. He might get a lot of gifts etc but he certainly cant use any of the FIFA revenues.

On January 28 2014 23:59 Crytash wrote:



First of all, i did not say that it would be a paradise (that was the other poster), second to that there is still (legal) lobbying in China. Please stop posting false information. Guanxi is one of the most important things to understand when you are doing business in China and saying that lobbying is illigal, esp. soft lobbying like sharing studys of think tanks, etc. is afaik still huge.

Those gifts you are talking about still exist, just as bribes and is wide spread.

You want to talk to a german about rules/laws and obidience? Realy?

On January 29 2014 00:35 Kheve wrote:


Guanxi merely means 'relationship'. It exist everywhere. Foreigners who make it in china likes to make it like a unique science when its just relationship. Dick Cheney is a stakeholder in an oil company which got projects in iraq. These things happen everywhere. However in china, the moment personal gain can be found, it is corruption regardless of whether you sincerely like that guys proposal and thus accepted it. Thus the rules for guanxi is a lot stricter than western 'relationship'.

In Example, there was a business selling liquor and alcohol in china. The cheapest cigarette was 100,000 RMB which is about 16-17k USD. The business had a 99% refund policy no questions asked. Liquors lists for above 1million RMB per case. This was a very very successful business for about 2+ years. Everything was legal about it the accounts are impeccably transparent. It has its own brand for all its items. It started in south china (cant remember which province though its prolly guangdong) and expanded to 3 branches.Yet this was finally closed down using a money-laundering law. the reason? Coz it was used mainly by ppl who presents gifts thus its bribery by chinese standards. It is perfectly legal mind you, the owner was finally released with no charge since he maintained he does not know any of his customers personally and had no idea of their doings. But the business was shut down by the government. It goes to show that in china you cant get away with merely being legal, you have to be right too. Even funnier example, one 4rd generation retired politburo son crashed a ferrari (the son is 40+ years old btw) recently. No crime took place. The retired politician immediately publicly disowns his son. Even the sign of wealth (even if u r not intentionally flaunting it) is not considered acceptable. That is how strict old chinese were.

Kespa in all its history never showed even a single financial irregularity. Blizzard was caught cheating time and time again (Counterstrike, commercial license etc etc) scamming its partners with creative accounting. The best part is, they even delayed payment after a court judgement was given.. Its normal in the west society dont make a hoohah out of it. In korea before the judgement is even handed down, ppl involved bow their head and apologize (hypocrite imo). But it goes to show wat society can/cannot accept in korea.

On January 28 2014 23:58 VisonKai wrote:
Since StarTale isn't in Proleague, Life will just have to win every GSL this year to keep up the exposure. It's k, npnp.

On January 29 2014 00:45 Plansix wrote:

My god, these are the most trolly posts I have seen in a while. The whole argument boils down to "Asian culture is magic and prevents corruption. Because of this, Kespa has been and always will be great. Blizzard isn't because it suffers the burden of Wester culture."

Seriously, take this nonsense someplace else.

On January 28 2014 18:05 JustPassingBy wrote:


Wait, are you sure Azubu was even part of the eSF?

On January 29 2014 01:16 xAdra wrote:
Kheve writes some pretty decent arguments but it's quite clearly biased against everything about Blizzard and what they stand for, while everything Kespa does is unquestionably good.


yeah just realized the implications for ST if they don't join PL....imagining startale fading into some background team that I vaguely remember existing, but don't know who the players are. Life had better keep things up

On January 29 2014 01:30 Kheve wrote:


Thats because the news of blizzard suing BW tournaments shocked me to hell. Up to that point I was sympathetic to Blizzard trying to get into Korean Esports. After that, everything blizzard has been saying up to that point has been dispelled as fake. Blizzards official reasoning of why they sue BW? Because BW is competing with SC2. What happened to wanting to promote esports better in korea?

On January 29 2014 01:39 Plansix wrote:

It has nothing to do with BW competing with SC2. It was about protecting their trademarks and copyrights to the story, art, characters and world of SC2. Copyright and trademark laws require the the holder defend their copyrights and trademarks to keep them. Blizzard had to go to court to confirm that they held the rights to all of SC2, or they risked losing it.

On January 29 2014 01:41 Kheve wrote:


Thats wrong. Blizzard suit was about BW tournaments being detrimental to SC2 thus seeks damages and injunction against holding BW tournaments.

The suit was seeking an injunction to stop the BW tournaments. And damages due to detriment to SC2. NOT a declaration of copyright and trademarks (It was never disputed by Kespa).

On January 29 2014 01:41 Kheve wrote:


Thats wrong. Blizzard suit was about BW tournaments being detrimental to SC2 thus seeks damages and injunction against holding BW tournaments.

The suit was seeking an injunction to stop the BW tournaments. And damages due to detriment to SC2. NOT a declaration of copyright and trademarks (It was never disputed by Kespa).

On January 29 2014 01:47 Plansix wrote:

Yes, it was to confirm that Blizzard held the right to decide who broadcast SC2. If they didn't sue, they would lose the right to decide who broadcast SC2. It's a defend to or lose it system.

On January 29 2014 02:05 Kheve wrote:


No you are wrong. The cause of action (the legal basis) for the suit was that BW was detrimental to SC2. Thus Blizzard seek an injunction against BW tournaments being held plus damages for SC2 losses. Kespa never hold SC2 tournaments. At that point in time, Kespa doesnt care about SC2.

On January 29 2014 01:49 ACrow wrote:

Please get your facts straight before posting nonsense. Kespa even used to charge for Starcraft broadcasting licenses within Korea (= making money with Blizzard IP without paying anything to them), which was one of the causes for the original law suit. Of course it got more prominent when SC2 was released and this was when Blizzard really started to push the charges, because, like Plansix said, they needed to do that to keep their trademark claims for the new game. Blizzard certainly could have and should have handled the transition to SC2 more smoothly, but acting as if Kespa did everything right back then is just silly.

On January 29 2014 02:16 Plansix wrote:

If you do a google search for "Blizzard sues Kespa" the first two articles say and quote Blizzard as only caring about their trademarks, copyrights and confirming that SC2 was not public domain. You really need to read up on the subject, rather than spouting nonsense.

On January 29 2014 02:25 Kheve wrote:


Read the articles properly. Blizzard sues Kespa because they claim to have signed away the rights to GomTV to broadcast. What right is this? Copyright and trademarks laws are very clear cut. No violation of copyright was ever mentioned. The right to broadcast was signed many years after BW and there is no such rights in law concerning such issues. The only law they can use is copyright and trademarks. In which the law is very clear, the owners of the product holds the rights to the fees collected for that product he owns. Unless there is a detriment to the copyright holder, the holder is unable to stop the commercial from going on. Even if there is a detriment, the commercial MAY be stopped but the fee collected BELONGS to the owner.

The cause of action IS that BW tournaments are held to the detriment of blizzard SC2. Thus they can apply for an injunction to stop it and seek damages.

On January 29 2014 02:29 Plansix wrote:

All right, I think we all need to accept that you dot understand how copyright laws work or that the holder of the copyright must defend it or lose it. Good day sir.

On January 29 2014 02:16 Plansix wrote:
You really need to read up on the subject, rather than spouting nonsense.

On January 29 2014 02:37 Golondrin wrote:


That should apply to you. From what kheve is saying looks like he was reading about the subject as it was actually happening back in the day. Don't use google, the sites it brings are only taking on what blizzard told them about and didn't bother to contact the other side and have the two sides of the story because of the language barrier. Instead look on TL for milkis updates and translations about the whole issue.

On January 29 2014 02:37 Golondrin wrote:


That should apply to you. From what kheve is saying looks like he was reading about the subject as it was actually happening back in the day. Don't use google, the sites it brings are only taking on what blizzard told them about and didn't bother to contact the other side and have the two sides of the story because of the language barrier. Instead look on TL for milkis updates and translations about the whole issue.

On January 29 2014 02:53 Kheve wrote:


Thanks. Im not trying claim blizzard is devil incarnate. But I am trying to set some facts out straight to those who gets even the facts wrong. Blizzard cause of action was that BW tournaments was to the detriment of SC2 thus seeking an injunction against Kespa holding BW tournaments and damages from Kespa.

As for plainsix, he is entitled to his opinion like everyone else. But I just wish he gets the facts right at least and not base his opinions on wrong facts.

On January 29 2014 02:35 Ammanas wrote:
Also all the exclusive rights were so much bullshit anyway. Imagine someone somewhere would be giving exclusive licenses to broadcast ALL of hockey or football or basketball or fucking chess... All those games (because that's what they are afterall) were created by someone somewhere, but the broadcasting licenses (or any licenses for that matter) belong to the creators of leagues, not creators of that game...

On January 29 2014 03:01 emythrel wrote:


Hate to tell you this, but the rights to broadcast all those sports ARE exclusive. in the UK, until 3 years ago, only Sky Sports could broadcast live Premiership matches, everyone else could only show highlights and they all had to state "Video courtesy of Sky Sports". In most countries, the rights to broadcast sporting events are exactly exclusive, thats how they make money selling the rights and how companies recoup money from advertising, if you want to watch X sport, you have to watch it on X channel.

It might not be that way in the US, but I'd bet that there is one organisation, maybe 2, that have the rights to broadcast live american football, hockey, baseball and that they sub-let the rights to other companies within each state, or they simply broadcast on their syndicated networks.

If you want to broadcast a sport, you have to pay their sporting board for the rights, wanna broadcast English football? Gotta pay the English FA. Wanna broadcast snooker? gotta pay the World Snooker Association. Wanna broadcast live snowboarding? Gotta pay the World Snowboard Association. Notice a pattern yet?

Someone holds the rights to everything you see on TV and someone else had to pay for the right to broadcast it. If we knew exactly who created Soccer, I promise you that person would claim the rights to it and you would have to pay them instead of the FA or whomever, more liekly the FA would have to pay that person, then they would sell on the rights to Sky Sports etc.

but in the case of Kespa vs Blizzard, Blizzard were the appropriate holder of any rights to Starcraft or Starcraft 2

On January 29 2014 02:59 Plansix wrote:

Blizzards internal reasoning for bringing the lawsuit are not known fact. You think it's to stop BW events and I think it was to secure broadcast rights and protect their IP. Both were things that could have happened during the law suit. You can't just declare that only one half of that mattered.

On January 29 2014 03:11 Ammanas wrote:

The thing is, it was PREMIERSHIP who sold those rights. Not the person who created football, their heir or FIFA. It was the league. Same for Kespa - they create league, they can give the rights to broadcast to anyone. The sport creator shouldn't hold the rights for broadcast of said sport everywhere in the world, the leagues should. And they always are.

On January 29 2014 03:16 Kheve wrote:


Cause of action is the legal basis (Ive already mentioned it when I first brought up this term). If I sue under contract law for breach of contract, my cause of action would go X actions breach Y terms of the contract causing me damages, thus I ask for damages or specific performance (a type of judgement to compel the defendant to do something). That would be my cause of action. Lots of details involved (is the defendant the correct party, terms constant, interpretation of the terms, causation, actual damage assessment etc).

Cause of action is the legal term of the writs contents. It has to be specific concise otherwise the court will throw it out. Blizzard internal/public reasoning does not come into play at all. It is what is claims to the courts.

On January 29 2014 03:01 emythrel wrote:


but in the case of Kespa vs Blizzard, Blizzard were the appropriate holder of any rights to Starcraft or Starcraft 2. All the sports u mentioned were being broadcast long before IP laws went in to effect, if a new sport was invented tomorrow, and one person, collection of people or company could prove they created it, they could easily trademark the game and have exclusive rights to its use. Board games work this way, everything else works this way, so why should an eSport be any different? The company who make the game have all the rights to its use and rightly so.

On January 29 2014 03:19 Plansix wrote:

Starcraft is not a foot ball or soccer ball. It is the ball and field you play on, and blizzard up keeps the rule book. Blizzard can own the broadcast rights to the game they made, just like a band has the broadcast rights to all their songs.

On January 29 2014 03:11 Ammanas wrote:

The thing is, it was PREMIERSHIP who sold those rights. Not the person who created football, their heir or FIFA. It was the league. Same for Kespa - they create league, they can give the rights to broadcast to anyone. The sport creator shouldn't hold the rights for broadcast of said sport everywhere in the world, the leagues should. And they always are.

On January 29 2014 03:24 Plansix wrote:

How does that prove me wrong again? At the end if the case blizzard got the broadcast rights and didn't get damages. And I work in law, I know that you have to ask for everything you are seeking upfront, even if you don't plan seeking everything you asked for.

On January 29 2014 03:27 Ammanas wrote:

And now we are in gray area. I believe there is no law about something this. I mean.. Chess is a 1v1 game, like Starcraft. Surely there is someone who have created it (or their heir) or some company who created the modern rules for it. The game turns into competitive 'sport' which people are watching. Does that mean those abovementioned people should be able to give exclusive broadcasting rights for ALL chess events ever done in (for example) Russia? Shouldn't it be the creators of league itself? We know how it works in real sports, why should it work differently in esports?

On January 29 2014 03:28 emythrel wrote:


If football were invented today, that wouldn't be the case. We don't know who invented football, even if we did, the laws protecting IP didn't exist when it was invented so it wouldn't matter. Any new sport would have the same protections that Starcraft does. The rights to broadcast most sports belong the the governing body of that sport, not the league. The FA does not run the non professional leagues but you have to pay licencing fees to them to have your team accredited, if you want to form your own league you have to pay for the rights to the FA. Its not the league creators at all that hold the rights, its just that most professional leagues are run by the governing body.

If you want to have Deal or no Deal on TV in your country, you have to pay for the rights from whomever holds them, that might not be the person who created it, but the person who created the show sold the rights to a TV company usually, who can then sell them on to someone else, but they have to give a percentage to the original creator in most cases.

Starcraft is a game, a trademarked game, therefore if you use its content in a direct fashion like SC2 is used, and you make money from that, you have to pay Blizzard. That is as it should be. Modern Soccer, Rugby, Baseball etc are significantly different from their original forms, if you could find the guy who first picked up the ball and ran with it (How rugby was "created") you would have no right to claim the modern game of Rugby as yours, it would be so vastly different in the centuries between, however what Kespa were broadcasting was Blizzards property, pretty much exactly how they designed it, and they didn't even show a logo with Blizzard on it until they were forced to!

Anyone who tries to defend Kespa for not paying Blizzard to broadcast their game simply is living in a world where the creators of content are obviously not worthy of note. A songwriter has the rights to the broadcast of their music, an author has the rights to the reproduction of their writing, Movie studios have the rights to all films made by them, why should games be any different? They might not have been using BW as it was originally intended (simply as a game) but they were making money from it and not paying Blizzard for the privilege and that is wrong. Blizzard have every right to be paid when you use their work to make money for yourself, that is how everything else in the world works.

On January 29 2014 03:28 Kheve wrote:


Blizzards cause of action in suing Kespa is that BW tournaments is detrimental to SC2 thus causing blizzard damage and thus blizzard seeks an injunction to stop BW tournaments.

On January 29 2014 03:27 Ammanas wrote:

And now we are in gray area. I believe there is no law about something this. I mean.. Chess is a 1v1 game, like Starcraft. Surely there is someone who have created it (or their heir) or some company who created the modern rules for it. The game turns into competitive 'sport' which people are watching. Does that mean those abovementioned people should be able to give exclusive broadcasting rights for ALL chess events ever done in (for example) Russia? Shouldn't it be the creators of league itself? We know how it works in real sports, why should it work differently in esports?

On January 29 2014 03:37 emythrel wrote:


The league crators should have the rights to their league, but they should have to pay whomever created the game for the right to use it. You can't compare games created centuries ago with modern video games.

The rights to broadcast ALL professional snowboarding belong to one body, the WSA, they took a hobby and created form and structure to have different disciplines with distinct rule sets, what they broadcast is sufficiently separate from the creation of a snowboard that the first snowboarder can not claim the rights. However, what Kespa was broadcasting was Blizzards game, with their unit balance, the only thing they created themselves were the maps. Even the league format for proleague is not original, its just a series of round robins. The individual matches use a well established best of system and the "ace" match has been around since long before BW, you find it in team pool matches, tennis, etc etc.

Kespa can not claim the rights to anything, they did not change how the game was played, the game itself or the rules significantly enough to claim that what they were broadcasting was seperate from what blizzard created. The only thing Kespa ever created was a league, they didn't even invent the ranking system or format of the league, but used already well established formats. So what exactly were Kespa trying to claim that they had the right to broadcast BW without paying blizzard based upon?

On January 29 2014 03:33 Plansix wrote:

But that didn't happen. It was settled and resolved with with blizzard getting the broadcast rights to SC2. Blizzard alway has the option to file a TRO, but they never did.

On January 28 2014 15:51 xuanzue wrote:
actually, I only care about life getting a good team.

On January 29 2014 04:08 Kheve wrote:


It did. It was the cause of action. They filed it. Not sure if korea has a registrar system. Nevertheless the cause of action was mentioned.

On January 29 2014 03:28 emythrel wrote:


If football were invented today, that wouldn't be the case. We don't know who invented football, even if we did, the laws protecting IP didn't exist when it was invented so it wouldn't matter. Any new sport would have the same protections that Starcraft does. The rights to broadcast most sports belong the the governing body of that sport, not the league. The FA does not run the non professional leagues but you have to pay licencing fees to them to have your team accredited, if you want to form your own league you have to pay for the rights to the FA. Its not the league creators at all that hold the rights, its just that most professional leagues are run by the governing body.

If you want to have Deal or no Deal on TV in your country, you have to pay for the rights from whomever holds them, that might not be the person who created it, but the person who created the show sold the rights to a TV company usually, who can then sell them on to someone else, but they have to give a percentage to the original creator in most cases.

Starcraft is a game, a trademarked game, therefore if you use its content in a direct fashion like SC2 is used, and you make money from that, you have to pay Blizzard. That is as it should be. Modern Soccer, Rugby, Baseball etc are significantly different from their original forms, if you could find the guy who first picked up the ball and ran with it (How rugby was "created") you would have no right to claim the modern game of Rugby as yours, it would be so vastly different in the centuries between, however what Kespa were broadcasting was Blizzards property, pretty much exactly how they designed it, and they didn't even show a logo with Blizzard on it until they were forced to!

Anyone who tries to defend Kespa for not paying Blizzard to broadcast their game simply is living in a world where the creators of content are obviously not worthy of note. A songwriter has the rights to the broadcast of their music, an author has the rights to the reproduction of their writing, Movie studios have the rights to all films made by them, why should games be any different? They might not have been using BW as it was originally intended (simply as a game) but they were making money from it and not paying Blizzard for the privilege and that is wrong. Blizzard have every right to be paid when you use their work to make money for yourself, that is how everything else in the world works.

On January 29 2014 04:12 Plansix wrote:

Good, glad we agree on the facts and that a Injunction was never filed and BW broadcaster kept going on during the course of the lawsuit.

On January 29 2014 03:01 emythrel wrote:


Hate to tell you this, but the rights to broadcast all those sports ARE exclusive. in the UK, until 3 years ago, only Sky Sports could broadcast live Premiership matches, everyone else could only show highlights and they all had to state "Video courtesy of Sky Sports". In most countries, the rights to broadcast sporting events are exactly exclusive, thats how they make money selling the rights and how companies recoup money from advertising, if you want to watch X sport, you have to watch it on X channel.

It might not be that way in the US, but I'd bet that there is one organisation, maybe 2, that have the rights to broadcast live american football, hockey, baseball and that they sub-let the rights to other companies within each state, or they simply broadcast on their syndicated networks.

If you want to broadcast a sport, you have to pay their sporting board for the rights, wanna broadcast English football? Gotta pay the English FA. Wanna broadcast snooker? gotta pay the World Snooker Association. Wanna broadcast live snowboarding? Gotta pay the World Snowboard Association. Notice a pattern yet?

Someone holds the rights to everything you see on TV and someone else had to pay for the right to broadcast it. If we knew exactly who created Soccer, I promise you that person would claim the rights to it and you would have to pay them instead of the FA or whomever, more liekly the FA would have to pay that person, then they would sell on the rights to Sky Sports etc.

but in the case of Kespa vs Blizzard, Blizzard were the appropriate holder of any rights to Starcraft or Starcraft 2. All the sports u mentioned were being broadcast long before IP laws went in to effect, if a new sport was invented tomorrow, and one person, collection of people or company could prove they created it, they could easily trademark the game and have exclusive rights to its use. Board games work this way, everything else works this way, so why should an eSport be any different? The company who make the game have all the rights to its use and rightly so.

On January 29 2014 04:45 Yakikorosu wrote:
Foregone conclusion at this point but still sad. For those like me who did not follow BW whatsoever, eSF was the source of the vast majority of our great SC2 memories.

On January 29 2014 04:48 Bagration wrote:


eSF was not the source of great SC2 memories. That was the players that made the great memories and plays, and GSL which gave them the medium to showcase those plays and great games. eSF was just a political entity that was more interested in power than SC2

On January 29 2014 04:25 Kheve wrote:


Dont use movie/songs because they are definitely not relevant to game. COPY right belongs to creator. If someone else came up with a song with different lyrics and 99% similar melody (like chinese/japanese/korean versions of popular songs) it is THEIR copyright. Movies same thing. 'Jaws' case is the main precedent. Similar but not same is sufficient against infringement claims. Ideas are not copyrightable. If we go by these standards blizzard is dead.

Blizzard refuses to use sports as a standard coz then blizzard claims are terrible. All sports broadcast rights belong to the organisers. FIFA doesnt own champions league. UEFA does as well as the Euro. FIFA do own world cup however.

1) Kespa never claimed Blizzards trademark (never claim to be blizzard, never misled others to think they're blizzard)
2) Property belongs to the OWNER. All rights belong to the OWNER unless otherwise stated. Thats why u always see copyright/trademarks are property of XXX. SC2 have an additional clause saying broadcast rights belong to blizzard.
3) Blizzard was PAID by kespa and all other gamers when they purchased the game. Half the BW sold was in korea.
4) Kespa NEVER COPIED BW. Never pirated it.

The only thing is IP which is governed by fair use (yes this is a legal term independent of 'fair use policy' created by developers which is actually a contract term which deprives users of the legal fair use right). Regretably Blizzard sue BW tournaments because it damages sc2. If schumacher drives his own BMW and the video is a viral hit, all revenues of the video belongs to schumacher. Cause the BMW owner is schumacher. And hes driving it around. And he made a video. Which was broadcasted and got lots of money. No questions.

On January 28 2014 18:41 Greenei wrote:
the esf prevented kespa from fucking gom in the ass at the beginning of the transition to sc2. so im sad to see them gone and kespa still around.

On January 28 2014 18:53 -Celestial- wrote:
Lets just hope KesPA doesn't go full on with the power-plays again and going control mad and trying to stomp out the GSL now that eSF is out of the way. -_-



Not the same. Personally I really, really dislike the format for Proleague to the point that I just don't find it interesting to watch.
This confirmation that GSTL is basically completely dead is pretty devastating. No team league to watch anymore.

On January 29 2014 05:07 WolfintheSheep wrote:


Wow, you claim to have LLB qualifications, but can spout out stuff like this?

Movies and Songs are completely relevant to games, because copyright law does not make a distinction between any creative works unless they are listed specifically under certain clauses. In fact, most copyright laws tend to describe "copyrightable" works in general terms, like "creative, intellectual or artistic works", with some examples listed under what would qualify.

Copyright law gives the Copyright holder exclusive rights to:
- Creation of Derivative works
- Public displays or performances of the work
- Transmissions of the work via Radio or Video

Obviously with some discrepancies between countries, but the laws are mostly homogenous because of treaties and agreements.


Also, your Schumacher analogy is totally off. If the video was taken by a third party, the revenue goes to the person taking the video (though actually a greyish area, depending on Publicity Rights). If Schumacher is just recording a video of himself driving in a normal day, and the BMW just happens to be what he was driving at that time, then yes, that's Fair Use, so he'd retain all rights to the video. However, if he recorded the video specifically with the intent of advertising himself in association with the BMW, using the car as a marketing prop, then that crosses into BMW's copyright.

Still a grey area across all fronts, because there's a lot of circumstances that have to be evaluated, and intent has to be considered and weighed.

On January 29 2014 05:53 Plansix wrote:
Lol, he keeps bringing up the jaws case, which was based on all movies having to do with sharks. All shark movies. Of course the case was thrown out. It has little to do with the case for SC2, since they are not claiming to have rights to all broadcasts featuring stars.

Also, I have reviewed Kheves previous posts. The bias is strong with this one. We are not get an objective viewpoint on Kepsa.

On January 29 2014 06:47 Kheve wrote:


No one is talking about SC2. Korea esports doesnt care about SC2. Only Kespa bothers with SC2. How did this suddenly turn into SC2. It was always about Blizzard suing BW tournament organisers claiming they are damaging blizzard by holding tournaments.

On January 29 2014 06:47 Kheve wrote:


No one is talking about SC2. Korea esports doesnt care about SC2. Only Kespa bothers with SC2. How did this suddenly turn into SC2. It was always about Blizzard suing BW tournament organisers claiming they are damaging blizzard by holding tournaments.

On January 29 2014 07:03 WolfintheSheep wrote:


Not that they're damage Blizzard. That they were damaging Blizzard's IP rights by broadcasting and holding tournaments without licensing or permission.

I don't necessarily believe in the extent that Copyright and Trademark laws cover, but I more than acknowledge that they exist. And no matter what irrelevant examples you bring up like Jaws and Da Vinci Code (both which were about creating similar works, by the way, not using the original in unauthorized manners), it doesn't change the fact that copyright law explicitly grants Blizzard Broadcast rights over their games.

On January 29 2014 04:37 Bagration wrote:
Good riddance!

On January 29 2014 07:42 tili wrote:


What? What did esf ever do?

On January 29 2014 05:28 Stye wrote:


this. 100%.

Also, esf showed an example, that when u wanna win audience hearts u gotta listen to them and care about what they say (at least the reasonable bits). Compare 1st proleague or OGN (when Grubby was gonna be the english caster and the english part of casting and production was generally not given a shit about at all, most of you gotta remember those times) efforts and how it looks like now. It's all thanks to kespa seeing they don't hold a candle to how viewer friendly gstl was and deciding they gotta change or they'll always hold this 'evil corporation' look 'who bans players for writing 'p' more than twice for pause etc.'. They changed the image completely to remain competetive, but now with almost no competition in Korea (except GOM who might be aggressively taken over just as esf was) I'm not sure they will remain so 'saint' anymore.

Generally, I can't believe people saying equivalence of 'good riddance', 'they didn't do anything' and 'great news' in this thread. Must be either heartless or ignorant.

Also, this (if anyone prefers all-kill format in a teamleague, instead of watching ALL-MIRROR format):

On January 29 2014 07:39 Kheve wrote:
No it doesnt. Copyright is the right to replicate. Thats all it is.

On January 29 2014 08:03 WolfintheSheep wrote:

Now I know you're absolutely full of it. Since I'm guessing you're a US citizen, here's the US law for you to read: http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/17/106

I would happily link you to the WIPO's view on exclusive rights granted by Copyright as well, if you cared about that. Obviously not the law, but in general what most countries tend to adhere to (for better or worse).

You might be LLB qualified, but it's fairly obvious that IP Law is not remotely within your field.

On January 29 2014 08:54 Kheve wrote:


Im not US citizen btw. Anyway that is statutary law. Its principles apply in US. But even in US Blizzard would have a hard time negating the fair use.

http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/17/107

Is holding a playing a game with an opponent fair use of the BW. obviously. Is the players streaming the game fair use?

Furthermore law principles apply across all bodies of law.

Is OSL broadcast a derivative of Blizzards copyright?
or is the broadcast derivative of the copyrighted OSL tournaments? Players signed their rights to OSL when they join the tourney. Are the broadcast starcraft broadcasts? or are they OSL tournament broadcast?

http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/17/122

Furthermore

(c) No Royalty Fee Required for Certain Secondary Transmissions.— A satellite carrier whose secondary transmissions are subject to statutory licensing under paragraphs (1), (2), and (3) of subsection (a) shall have no royalty obligation for such secondary transmissions.

Thus the fact that we purchase BW is the licensing agreement. As we paid for BW starcraft and the broadcast is derived from our copy of BW I would also claim the rights that its a secondary transmission licensed by my purchase of BW. No broadcast rights was reserved for blizzard.

Lastly
(5) in the case of literary, musical, dramatic, and choreographic works, pantomimes, and pictorial, graphic, or sculptural works, including the individual images of a motion picture or other audiovisual work, to display the copyrighted work publicly; and
That which is specific excludes the unspecified. Thus exclusive rights to public broadcast is also not covered for games. However a tournament then can be would be covered by propriety rights. And the subsequent license given by the players to OSL.

Ofc how the judge would rule is up in the air. Im not up to date with cases after 2000. And bear in mind this is according to US copyright law which is pretty comprehensive.

I make no claims on knowledge on korean copyright law nor do I know korea case law tradition since I follow common law interpretations. However if copyright was infringed Kespa, I doubt Blizzard would sue due to BW tournaments causing damage (detrimental) to SC2. This is mostly IP rights covered by korean law.

Remember OGN holds the trademarks to OSL. Most of the copyright here can apply to OSL matches. Ie you may not rebroadcast OSL matches without their permission. And it is explicitly stated including players rights to the matches. Kespa trademarks are included naturally. So even by US law standards, Kespa/OGN do have rights to their tournaments

On January 29 2014 08:55 Xiphos wrote:


Man Wolfinthesheep just got punked.

On January 29 2014 09:06 Plansix wrote:

Not really, he looked up a bunch of laws from another country that have nothing to do with the case that Blizzard filed. The copy and paste tool is pretty cool, but does not mean he properly applied the law correctly. There is no guarantee that anything he just cited in on point. IP and copyright law is super complicated and you can't just copy two regulations and say "look I'm right". Finally, we should trust the attorneys who were in the country, working on the case, rather than one from another country who's laws may not be similar. He also cites fair use, which is used in artistic works that don't involve making money and is very far from on point.

I personally have limited knowledge into IP law, but I do know that Blizzard was able to get a settlement out of Kespa. The fact that Blizzard prevailed in getting the broadcast rights and Kespa settled shows that Kespa was not 100% confident they would win the case outright. At the end of the day, no judge is going to tell Blizzard they don't have the right to decide who broadcast their IP.

On January 29 2014 09:19 Kheve wrote:


Wrong again. Why would Blizzard settle if they can 100% win? The settlement gave all OSL trademarks and rights to their tournaments to OGN and MBC. All of the osl or msl matches belongs to OGN and MBC in the settlement. All the BW matches we love in the early days all belong to OGN and MBC.

All the settlement does is affirm Blizzard rights to SC2 which was never questioned since Blizzard SC2 T&C covered many of those things thus falls under contract law.

What blizzard is most afraid of thus they settled was the courts settling the esports issue once and for all. Ie courts could find that Esports is a fair use of copyrighted products and that organizers owns all rights to the tournaments. Thus setting a precedent to potentially challenge even contractual terms of the SC2 T&C.

On January 29 2014 08:55 Xiphos wrote:


Man Wolfinthesheep just got punked.

On January 29 2014 10:15 xAdra wrote:
I'm sorry for sparking up the Kheve IP law debate, I hope everyone can drop it since it's not relevant to eSF.

As for people saying "good riddance" and equivalents, what did eSF ever do to you and your favourite players? Seriously, the only thing I can think of is kespa fanboyism, and BW player prejudice. eSF uniting all the teams in the scene (at the time) under one flag was an amazing and glorious moment, and gave the scene (which was overinflated) some coherence.

On January 29 2014 10:39 Ammanas wrote:

It's the other way around, they didn't do anything. They were supposed to be governing body, but they held no real power. Also listening to Incontrol right now speaking about them on ITG, he mentioned they were screwing around foreign tournament organizers threatening to pull out all Koreans from tournaments if all doesn't go according to their conditions (see NASL, where it didn't go as per their conditions. Incontrol implied there was more also with other tournaments, that never got out).

Also mentioned that they were threatening players who wanted to transfer from eSF teams to other ones that if they transfer they will not be allowed to train with eSF players, play in eSF leagues and ever return to eSF team (not hard to beliebe - see, Slayers for something similar). Also apparently they were not only not paying most of their players anything (that's widely known fact) but also they were telling them just being in progaming house is an honor and more they deserve. Also some of the teams were taking half of the winnings from their players in order to 'operate the team-house' and eSF knew about it and did nothing.

He characterized them well in the show imo, they were that little bastard brother to Kespa, who killed your puppy when he was little and then grew up into serial killer. Governing body without any real power? What were they good for anyway? When IM had problems with LG, they ran to Kespa for help, even when they were still members of eSF...

On January 29 2014 12:18 Xiphos wrote:


Oh schnap, I always knew that there were some shady dealings inside ESF's infrastructure but god damn didn't know that they were filled with THIS kind of scumbagary.