On February 14 2014 03:22 CannonsNCarriers wrote: Instead of gimping banelings, why not put in more counterplay?
Banelings being strong against bio comps is a core part of SC2. But right now the counter play from SC2 (splitting, medivac pickups) don't work in Starbow.
If ghosts had 30 damage snipe, or if their stun spell was faster and more reliable, there could be bio counterplay options against banelings. What about making their shock spell instant hitting? The spell needs to be spammed to be maintained anyways.
Counterplay like splitting and dropship pickups do work. Additionally there are meatshields like marauders and firebats which can be even more powerfull with defense matrix. A lack of counterplay is not the issue.
The economy/production of starbow is designed to divert the players attention from unit-control to macro which can kill the terran very quickly if he isn't paying attention.
On February 14 2014 03:01 Gnots wrote: An idea I had would be to reinstate the medic's optical flare; this time instead of blinding it would "confuse" the target, acting as a 0.5-2 second mind control. The baneling would attack the closest unit to it, and if it was 1a-ed in a giant clump the zerg player would consider using lurkers next time.
I like the idea but then Terran again needs ridiculous amounts of micro and awareness compared to Zerg. Although it comes closer i must admit, the "the zerg player would consider using Lurkers next time" feels like how TvZ Bio sometimes feels and thats how artosis must have felt.
But maybe removing it is the easiest/fastest solution. The only/biggest problem with banelings is that if you catch a terran off-guard, you win a fight so easily, so quickly and efficient that its boring to win like that and frustrating to lose like that :X
And its one of the most common "off-guard" wins ever, because the Banelings kill an entire army in seconds.
Edit: the above post puts it in much nicer words i think. Also: Fighting Banelings is actually fun and competetive.
On February 14 2014 01:44 Falling wrote: For those of you complaining that banelings are 'boring units' that require little micro, I would encourage you to read Plexa's blog Unit Interactions
I don't much care for his Collosus and SH examples, but the concept is very true. Unit interactions can increase the skill cap of an individual unit which in isolation would simply be a 1a unit. The unit interaction between marines, banelings, and splash vs banelings creates situations of splitting and counter-splitting.
Now. It may turn out that banelings don't work in SB for other reasons, I don't know. But Banelings shouldn't be thrown under the bus because Artosis didn't like them in his 3rd session. He might be right, but then again who knows. But certainly not because
banes are an extremely boring unit. Your opponent a-moves them into your army?
I don't think so unless the unit interactions within SB makes them boring because in vanilla SC2 they certainly are not.
Yes it is said by a lot of players here, only players that never have played Zerg or with Banelings can say that, or those players that really really hate them.
On February 14 2014 02:07 Daumen wrote:
On February 13 2014 16:19 Jermman wrote: devs gif ladder pls
not a dev but here you go: www.StarbowArena.com (maybe not the ladder you were looking for but there is no other ladder atm afaik)
Also: can we split the Baneling Discussion off? make a new Thread? Its been discussed heavily on the last 5-7 pages now. Every other post is getting drowned... Pleeeaaase?
Uh, there is nothing much to talk about right now, and this started with "should Banelings be in Starbow or not and do they need changing?", so it is actually valid discussion.
There is lots to talk about ;D DT/Mines, SB-Ladder, SB Arena Ladder whatever ;D
Never said the Discussion is not Valid °_° just saying its getting so huge that everything else gets swallowed by it :X
In essence I want a Starbow Section :O Maybe we will get one if we have multiple Threads xD
No need for that, Starbow website should be up soon with its own forum.
I hope its going to be awesome, moderated like TL and stuff.
what if banelings would do a maximum amount of dmg? So if you roll into a marine clump you wouldn't kill them necessarily I don't know if that is doable, but i think that could "fix" the problem?
I would like to have the baneling overkill a bit like scourges. And an energy reduction for matrix and its all said and done :D I like to keep everything simple.
On February 14 2014 01:44 Falling wrote: For those of you complaining that banelings are 'boring units' that require little micro, I would encourage you to read Plexa's blog Unit Interactions
I don't much care for his Collosus and SH examples, but the concept is very true. Unit interactions can increase the skill cap of an individual unit which in isolation would simply be a 1a unit. The unit interaction between marines, banelings, and splash vs banelings creates situations of splitting and counter-splitting.
Now. It may turn out that banelings don't work in SB for other reasons, I don't know. But Banelings shouldn't be thrown under the bus because Artosis didn't like them in his 3rd session. He might be right, but then again who knows. But certainly not because
banes are an extremely boring unit. Your opponent a-moves them into your army?
I don't think so unless the unit interactions within SB makes them boring because in vanilla SC2 they certainly are not.
Yes it is said by a lot of players here, only players that never have played Zerg or with Banelings can say that, or those players that really really hate them.
On February 14 2014 02:07 Daumen wrote:
On February 13 2014 16:19 Jermman wrote: devs gif ladder pls
not a dev but here you go: www.StarbowArena.com (maybe not the ladder you were looking for but there is no other ladder atm afaik)
Also: can we split the Baneling Discussion off? make a new Thread? Its been discussed heavily on the last 5-7 pages now. Every other post is getting drowned... Pleeeaaase?
Uh, there is nothing much to talk about right now, and this started with "should Banelings be in Starbow or not and do they need changing?", so it is actually valid discussion.
There is lots to talk about ;D DT/Mines, SB-Ladder, SB Arena Ladder whatever ;D
Never said the Discussion is not Valid °_° just saying its getting so huge that everything else gets swallowed by it :X
In essence I want a Starbow Section :O Maybe we will get one if we have multiple Threads xD
No need for that, Starbow website should be up soon with its own forum.
I hope its going to be awesome, moderated like TL and stuff.
Probably not that awesome right away, but it will continue to be improved over time ofc.
On February 14 2014 04:54 naowin wrote: Would it be possible to get the defiler model to move abit more? like how a snake or "naga" crawls forward. now is just so stonestiff
More random ideas for Baneling that I'm throwing against the wall . . .
1. Baneling's detonation causes a fungal growth type AOE instead of direct damage - it can either hold units in place, do damage over time, or possibly some iteration of both.
2. Baneling speed only works on creep, even with upgrade - when Baneling's are off creep they revert back to slow
On February 14 2014 04:54 naowin wrote: Would it be possible to get the defiler model to move abit more? like how a snake or "naga" crawls forward. now is just so stonestiff
Warp, HTs do a lot of damage yes, but it's pretty spread out over time. I think it's at a good place where if the opponent's army doesn't vacate the storm they are punished for it, but they can mitigate a lot of the damage by not just sitting in the storm (obviously tanks can't avoid storms, but it might be worth it for the terran to try to target down the HTs with vultures before they can get their storms off)
I feel like storm shouldn't be touched until after the ladder is up and a lot of games are played.
Storm with smartcast plus it's casting range and almost no delay, even with the nerf, seems borderline ridiculous. The problem is P would probably never win a PvZ if they nerfed it too much so...
To Deal with the Banelings, I think Science vessels should have a ability that helps vs them.This would allow SKterran style to still function very well. Though SKterran already deals with banelings well.
For you who don't know, SKterran is Soulkey's build of Vessels+bio. The role of the Vessles are to take out the AOE units.
This is where I feel nerve jammer can be reworked. Currently it reduces the DPS of units all by 75%. (even your own) Change it to reduce the damage of only your opponents units by 50% wile effecting your units by 3/4 as much. (37.5%)
So its current use as a siege beaker still works. In TVZ you can also split micro your own units until at last the banes have reached you. You will drop nerve jammer on top of your own units to less the blow of banes wile having a slight DPS lead.
You now have a way to deal with banes and zerg can still defend early with banes. I still think the fact marines chilling in place auto split off is more than enough.
I am also waiting on some one to realize banes auto detonate on Spider mines.
On February 14 2014 06:13 Laertes wrote: Are banelings actually a problem at the highest level? we shouldn't balance to the lowest common denominator.
I don't think so, Many zergs are using them to get a faster 3rd that what they would in BW. So I think if Terran scouted baneling expands better. Some kind of 3 OC build would work well vs the heavy macro of Zerg
A 1 rax FE in to reactor Fact vulchers+mine wile starting the 3rd OC then adding on more raxs will work very well vs Baneling expand. You will only need to scout 3 hatch muta and get ready to deal with that if it is the case.
EPT
