EPTIt was an important tool for terrans to fight banelings, and there is no reason to remove it from the game that doesn't apply equally to the baneling.
Starbow - Page 184
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Gnots
3 Posts
It was an important tool for terrans to fight banelings, and there is no reason to remove it from the game that doesn't apply equally to the baneling. | ||
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Foxxan
Sweden3427 Posts
baneling landmines are near useless outside of the opening stage, because of Obs and Vessel. And even in the early game I think rushing lurkers and just using their passive mode is better for traps, since the opponent does not have to walk directly over them. Not against the agressive terran style that delays tech against banes/lings and goes earlier third | ||
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Orcasgt24
Canada3238 Posts
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Foxxan
Sweden3427 Posts
On February 14 2014 15:07 Orcasgt24 wrote: Does this game has Protoss shields taking full damage vs all kinds of damage regardless of unit size? yes | ||
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Foxxan
Sweden3427 Posts
On February 13 2014 09:25 sluggaslamoo wrote: I actually think its worth a try to have mines not detect DT's. Yes I'm going to talk about BW but we've got a decade of history to work on when we compare it to that. Basically, DT openings are quite strong in the lower levels, but were really an allin build at the higher levels, you almost never saw them in progames because they were so easy to defend against and punish. Basically once you've played against it a few times, you understand what exactly to do to finish the Protoss off immediately defending against the DT rush. You also had to be pretty bad to lose to a DT rush, unless you're Fantasy. In recent times I can only think of two games, Bisu vs Baby during frankenstein-league where the cheese was successful and he killed the comsat with the DT before it came up, and Jangbi vs Fantasy in OSL grand final where Jangbi very intelligently defused mines with a zealot before sending in DT's and winning the game. Both were completely metagamed because a standard Rax FE opening destroys DT openings. The issue was that Fantasy wrongly assumed that his FD opening (http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/FD_(vs._Protoss)) would stop Jangbi's DTs with mines (not to mention thinking that someone would do such a risky build in a grand final) and Jangbi completely mindgamed him. So no, mines detecting DT's does not exactly stop DT's. However, the issue is that beyond a surprise meta DT opening, DT's are almost useless in the matchup simply because of mines. Bisu used to use DT harassment to great ability but he stopped after players got better at defending against it, with good turrets and mine placement. Also TvP now revolves around much heavier vulture play, making it impossible to harass with DT's beyond drops, or harass in general beyond early game. So TvP got a bit stale in the regard that harassment opportunities became less and less and it started to look like one of those 3 base vs 3 base stalemates you see in SC2, although no where near as bad, at least you had positioning and much more variety of builds, and motherf***ing carriers. With the new scanning mechanic, I think DT's are going to be useless in the matchup after people start improving. You can't deny the comsat, and better pathing will make it harder to defuse mines with DT's. You also have much better walling. So mines not being able to detect dts would be a net positive for the TvP matchup I think because it allows you to harass without needing transport. Maybe it should be highlighted in the unit description so people don't get confused in the transition. The problem with spidermines not detecting dts, is the gameplay will revolve around the dts for protoss. Terran will say to himself, "damn i have only 2scans available", and this will make him not able to move out. Toss will not only go 1-3dts, he will go more than that. Send in a few at a time, force scans from terran. On top of this, he will for sure use the warpprism with dts, abuse it further. The warpprism is already possible, but the power combined with dts roaming the map is bigger this way Not talking about the opening here, midgame~. Terran will be forced to when he attacks to plant a turret. To have scans availabe, and not only 1 or 2 but more. So its a potential concern for me, quite a big concern, forcing terran to go an SV to be agressive or turret train. And to me, that makes the gameplay not good. | ||
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Espers
United Kingdom606 Posts
who is going to use banelings if their damage is halved? atm their main use is to take a third before Lair tech in ZvT. after that it seems banelings are obsolete since Lurkers do their job better, and even a MutaLing army can fight bio head on. I've almost never seen big baneling armies in Starbow so far. do you have any vods/reps of this? armor reduction sounds nice, but you already have the viper which gives a similar effect by slowing movement speed and attack speed, and is much easier to cast on marines than for banelings to hit. it seems kind of redundant. also, you can get vipers on the way towards hive, not having to deviate towards a baneling nest (and speed upgrade?) just to get the same effect. it doesn't seem like they would be used very much I think banelings are very powerful at lower levels as they're very unforgiving if you're not paying attention, but so are lurkers, mines and so on. in the higher level games I've watched (Beastyqt mostly) they seem to have a very niche role, kind of like the firebat. | ||
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Grumbels
Netherlands7032 Posts
On February 14 2014 12:22 RDaneelOlivaw wrote: What good is the armor debuff going to do early game though? Seems nice late game but in the midgame when a marine has 0 armor banelings will just be nerfed into the ground. There has to be a way we can find that will preserve ling bane openings while keeping mass bane in check This is my worry, that banelings are going to be useless for early game to become just another army synergy unit in late game, where it will be correct play to add some banelings to the mix for their armor debuff. Three shots to kill a marine instead of one seems really extreme. | ||
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TopRamen
United States96 Posts
SCV calldown makes TvT weird, I can drop them on my opponents tank line and make super value off of them. In the game I had, the other player and I started to call down SCVs on each others tank lines and as a result we started to keep our lines unsieged and would only siege in a big fight. Pretty strange. I guess it makes vultures potentially super strong. If SCV calldown turns out to be a problem, you could give it a range. But I kind of like the flexibility of the ability. Here's a replay of the game. http://drop.sc/373989 EDIT: I was just talking to someone in the SBow chat channel and they made a really good suggestion, if possible in the editor that is. Make SCV Calldown a flying unit first, then a ground unit. This way, players can shoot it down (counterplay options!) before it makes it to the ground. | ||
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Kaos_StarCraft
Australia92 Posts
Wait until the official ladder goes live, play for a few months and THEN provide your feedback with replays as supporting evidence. Broodwar remained untouched for-fucking-ever and surprise surprise when the players had to work hard for victory, discoveries and breakthroughs were made. "The most authentic thing about us is our capacity to create, to overcome, to endure, to transform, to love and to be greater than our suffering." - Ben Okri | ||
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elmerpogs
Philippines441 Posts
On February 14 2014 05:09 WarpTV wrote: I keep laughing reading this comment. thumbs up or this comment lol yeah it looked like a lobster.They took away defilers and gave us lobsters | ||
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TopRamen
United States96 Posts
On February 14 2014 16:54 Kaos_StarCraft wrote: I really really wish everybody who has ideas about this game and its units would go away. Honestly how many of you have played over 100 games of Starbow? Over 200? Wait until the official ladder goes live, play for a few months and THEN provide your feedback with replays as supporting evidence. Broodwar remained untouched for-fucking-ever and surprise surprise when the players had to work hard for victory, discoveries and breakthroughs were made. "The most authentic thing about us is our capacity to create, to overcome, to endure, to transform, to love and to be greater than our suffering." - Ben Okri I've played roughly 200 games 146 of them on Fighting Spirit  But I understand, I think its important that the developers/players don't jump to any conclusions too quickly. Actually, that's kind of why I like the SBow dev team. They haven't done too much balancing (some changes they've reverted to original values), they've patched the game to be closer to BW stats but that's about it. ...you're right, they shouldn't touch the game. | ||
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Zaphod Beeblebrox
Denmark697 Posts
On February 14 2014 16:54 Kaos_StarCraft wrote: I really really wish everybody who has ideas about this game and its units would go away. Honestly how many of you have played over 100 games of Starbow? Over 200? Wait until the official ladder goes live, play for a few months and THEN provide your feedback with replays as supporting evidence. Broodwar remained untouched for-fucking-ever and surprise surprise when the players had to work hard for victory, discoveries and breakthroughs were made. "The most authentic thing about us is our capacity to create, to overcome, to endure, to transform, to love and to be greater than our suffering." - Ben Okri As the guy who has been involved with development the longest (apart from Kabel ofc), I would say that I am happy for this discussion. This is the same exact way we have deen discussing and developing the mod for 2 years: Someone raises a possible issue, and if enough people can see the problem, a discussion emerges with wild ideas and proposed changes. Someone tests the best ideas, we try it ingame for a while, and once we are happy with the results, the changes (if any) sticks. The one thing that has plagued the discussion is people who try to push for things agressively with too little ingame experience, or general knowlage of the mod to possibly know the implications. I hate when people think their idea is the best thing ever concieved despite having only glanced the mod or played like 2 games. That is not the case for the current discussion. People are bringing up ideas knowing that they are just ideas, and no one is acting entitled. It does not take 100 hours of gameplay to come up with a good idea, or take part in a discussion. The important thing is to remember that you haven't had those 100 hours, and take that into consideration in the way you post. Keep coming with ideas and suggestions people, but don't expect them to get past the idea stage. | ||
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Foxxan
Sweden3427 Posts
SCV calldown makes TvT weird, I can drop them on my opponents tank line and make super value off of them Ye i know about this, i thought kabel changed it so the scv calldown was 1) benigh for x seconds 2) didnt do friendly splash when shot. But isnt the unit benigh right now? Cuz that was implemented cuz of this in particular Number 2) doesnt work probably, siegetanks shooting an enemy benigh scv. Is it possible in the editor to make it work? Dunno But 1) should solve it(?) You target it with vults, gols or unsieged tan | ||
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HeyImFinn
United States250 Posts
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Grumbels
Netherlands7032 Posts
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Jagoti
Germany24 Posts
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Kaos_StarCraft
Australia92 Posts
On February 14 2014 17:14 Zaphod Beeblebrox wrote: As the guy who has been involved with development the longest (apart from Kabel ofc), I would say that I am happy for this discussion. This is the same exact way we have deen discussing and developing the mod for 2 years: Someone raises a possible issue, and if enough people can see the problem, a discussion emerges with wild ideas and proposed changes. Someone tests the best ideas, we try it ingame for a while, and once we are happy with the results, the changes (if any) sticks. The one thing that has plagued the discussion is people who try to push for things agressively with too little ingame experience, or general knowlage of the mod to possibly know the implications. I hate when people think their idea is the best thing ever concieved despite having only glanced the mod or played like 2 games. That is not the case for the current discussion. People are bringing up ideas knowing that they are just ideas, and no one is acting entitled. It does not take 100 hours of gameplay to come up with a good idea, or take part in a discussion. The important thing is to remember that you haven't had those 100 hours, and take that into consideration in the way you post. Keep coming with ideas and suggestions people, but don't expect them to get past the idea stage. That's fair I guess, discussion about ideas is always good. There's just an almighty amount of theorycrafting going on is all, with very few actual replays. It just rubs me up the wrong way when I feel that Starbow gameplay is somewhat underdeveloped, so many ideas are total stabs in the dark. On February 14 2014 14:42 Gnots wrote: If we are going to keep banelings and lurkers, I see no reason why we cannot have the medivac reinstated. It gives a 50% larger area of vision allowing more time to react, counter attacking without fighting the second remax, and picks up stranded marines out of the banelings reach. It was an important tool for terrans to fight banelings, and there is no reason to remove it from the game that doesn't apply equally to the baneling. Please don't bring back the medivac. I much prefer seeing medics+marines being micro'd, it's hard to do and is another way for excellent players to distinguish themselves. It also leads to more possible bio timings and completely negates the disgusting TvP that we've all become to accustomed to in HotS. | ||
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itsMAHVELbaybee
292 Posts
On February 14 2014 16:38 TopRamen wrote: Ok I know the baneling is all the rage but I have something to say about TvT... SCV calldown makes TvT weird, I can drop them on my opponents tank line and make super value off of them. In the game I had, the other player and I started to call down SCVs on each others tank lines and as a result we started to keep our lines unsieged and would only siege in a big fight. Pretty strange. I guess it makes vultures potentially super strong. If SCV calldown turns out to be a problem, you could give it a range. But I kind of like the flexibility of the ability. Here's a replay of the game. http://drop.sc/373989 EDIT: I was just talking to someone in the SBow chat channel and they made a really good suggestion, if possible in the editor that is. Make SCV Calldown a flying unit first, then a ground unit. This way, players can shoot it down (counterplay options!) before it makes it to the ground. I have experienced SCV calldown onto my tank lines before, not every single TvT though. I like flexibility in abilities and rewarding thinking outside the box. For example, I've been bunker rushing more often against zergs. Instead of pulling extra SCVs, I just use SCV calldown onto the bunker, without having to pull from my mineral line. The only time I can see that being a problem is extreme half map situations where theres a stale mate and both players are on 5-6 orbitals each. | ||
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404AlphaSquad
839 Posts
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Grumbels
Netherlands7032 Posts
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