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Foxxan
Sweden3427 Posts
Wouldn't it be possible to give it a rangelimit (like 9 for example), going out from the CC to solve all these hard to balance (mapbreaking) problems it causes? Its still abuseable on maps where workers need to mine a mineral before lifting/building a cc/hatch/nex | ||
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Ramiz1989
12124 Posts
On February 14 2014 19:15 404AlphaSquad wrote: imagine banelings like hider sugested :D great idea. i see alreasy hydras with banes vs protoss zealot storm in the future! Actually I think that this is already possible and I am wondering why people aren't doing it, maybe it is still unexplored I guess? The only problem mass Hydra have in the mid game is when they are fighting against huge number of better upgraded Speedlots. Usually Protoss isn't going for mass Reavers, but just for drops, and Storm shouldn't be ready yet so I think that Hydra and Baneling timing could deal very huge amount of damage if not finish the game right there. | ||
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Zaphod Beeblebrox
Denmark697 Posts
Both sides will have to micro to maximize efficency. If a Zerg does not split his Banes apart from other units, the friendly fire will make for a horrible engagement. Reverse Baneling bombs could become a thing, as forcing a Baneling to detonate in the middle of a Zergling group would provide much fun and giggles. But killing Banelings through focus fire would do much less damage to the zerg than sacrificial units might do. | ||
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404AlphaSquad
839 Posts
On February 14 2014 19:48 Zaphod Beeblebrox wrote: How about a simpler solution - Banes don't do damage when killed and do friendly fire on attacking, but has a much larger splash radius. Both sides will have to micro to maximize efficency. If a Zerg does not split his Banes apart from other units, the friendly fire will make for a horrible engagement. Reverse Baneling bombs could become a thing, as forcing a Baneling to detonate in the middle of a Zergling group would provide much fun and giggles. But killing Banelings through focus fire would do much less damage to the zerg than sacrificial units might do. so basically it is an easier to get infested terran? | ||
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Jermman
Canada174 Posts
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Grumbels
Netherlands7031 Posts
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Piy
Scotland3152 Posts
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Deleted User 97295
1137 Posts
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Ej_
47656 Posts
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Piy
Scotland3152 Posts
On February 14 2014 23:25 Laertes wrote: I have to bring an extremely clean idea to the table from a skype chat with ItWhoSpeaks and ChillyGonzalo. Combat Shield Combat shield was removed originally but Gonzalo, ItWhoSpeaks proposed that it would be interesting if it was reimplemented to give terrans the OPTION to spend resources to lessen their splash damage problems. For those who aren't aware or don't remember, combat shield increase marine hit points. Gonzalo said even as little at +5 hit points would make a huge difference in ZvT. Even if the buff is more like +10 hit points, it's fine. Hitpoint upgrades are a very important and subtle way to buff bio versus banelings and perhaps other forms of splash cause let's face it. What is the worst that could happen? That bio is actually decent in other matchups? God forbid. Why would this upgrade be cleaner than my baneling pounce idea?! Sorry whoever thought it would be better to make banelings able to pounce like Mirana in Dota 2, that just sounds messy and frankly, a little stupid. I know you were just throwing poop at a wall to see if it would stick, but try to think on your idea a little bit. Think on this: Is my ability going to be too messy? Is my idea going to work in the long run? Also think: What would Blizzard(The one who designed BW) do? If you can't answer either of those questions either and your conscience is screaming nope, don't post. Criticisms and Discussion If you don't like this idea, say so, but please don't say it's not gonna work. Hitpoints are such a subtle and good way to buff bio in this situation, you'd be surprised how much difference 5 hitpoints make against zerglings and how it will slow down the banelings ability to kill marines. You terrans are correct: Terran in Starbow must struggle all game right now against a zerg going banelings. Not dying to banelings is something that must be practiced and become good at. That's not a bad thing, but if you want to actually invest ~150/150 in a combat shield that could become useful in other matchups besides ZvT, you can do so. This is an update that just makes sense, so let's start discussing numbers. Thanks everyone. I don't think it would make much difference to the actual problems in the mu right now. Currently the problem is that zerg can have a strong 3 base economy before even stim is finished. Adding another upgrade isn't going to give Terran more pressure options early game and banelings aren't particularly strong in the mid or late game anyway. It's the momentum from being able to take such a fast third and delay lair that's the problem, not the inability of mass bio to deal with mass speed bane. Zerg doesn't even generally make more than 8-10 blings, but they can skip muta and use the ability to defend their fast third gas with ling bane to tech defiler lurker faster. This is generally what I've observed in the mu. | ||
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Jawra
Sweden146 Posts
The Clanwars that includes Starbow is coming up the 20th, hopefully the Banelings situtation is figured out by then..and the best solution would be not by changing the Terran Marine as that would affect so many other things..the major issue here is the Banelings itself, if there now is a problem. Please do not add Combat Shields, it would be very hard to balance everything. What needs to be addressed is the Ghost Shock ability and the Banelings itself, as these are the 2 units that can be heavily abused and make Starbow look bad when it has it's "big day" in the ClansWars. The pros will most likely try and find the most abusable units to gave them the edge in the Clanwars.. | ||
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404AlphaSquad
839 Posts
 but i would like to try at least some things to change them into an even better design. | ||
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Deleted User 97295
1137 Posts
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Jawra
Sweden146 Posts
I personally prefer having the Lurker be the mid-to late-game unit dishing out he AoE damage for Zerg, while having the Banelings be a core unit in the ZvZ ling-muta wars and to be a part of all-ins. I do not enjoy seeing big parts of the TvZ games consist of Banelings just rolling through armies, only seeing micro from the Terran side in the form of splitting. Moreover, as the Ghost Shock ability is changed, as planned, to be a "Disable-spell" for Reavers and such AoE units, Bio would become viable in more matchups, so I do not deem Combat Shields that necessary. | ||
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Piy
Scotland3152 Posts
The only issue I've seen with blings at a decent level is the amount of macro they give Zerg vs the terran with the fast bling expand builds. Personally, I don't like them or the way they look in the mu. Since this is effectively a port of BW with some tweaks, you want to be very cautious of upsetting what was tremendously fragile balance TvZ in BW. Swing it a little in either direction and it becomes borderline unwinnable for the other side. Things like combat shield and buffing ghosts or adding bizarre abilities to the blings in order to deal with the bling in TvZ seems stupid when the problem is just fundamentally the bling. | ||
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Hider
Denmark9433 Posts
On February 14 2014 23:51 Jawra wrote: Do people really want to see the Banelings be a major part of the matchups? I personally prefer having the Lurker be the mid-to late-game unit dishing out he AoE damage for Zerg, while having the Banelings be a core unit in the ZvZ ling-muta wars and to be a part of all-ins. I do not enjoy seeing big parts of the TvZ games consist of Banelings just rolling through armies, only seeing micro from the Terran side in the form of splitting. Moreover, as the Ghost Shock ability is changed, as planned, to be a "Disable-spell" for Reavers and such AoE units, Bio would become viable in more matchups, so I do not deem Combat Shields that necessary. While Reaver is strong vs bio, its actually not the main reason for why bio isn't viable currently vs protoss. Maurauders overall do a pretty good job of tanking Reaver-shots (unlike Marines). Rather, I see these two issues as more problematic for bio viability in TvP; 1) Maurauders can be too easily kited by Dragoons --> Gives bio absolutely zero map control vs protoss. Ironically mech is acutally more mobile than bio atm - from my experiences, the only way you can have a presense out on the map is through Banshee's (which IMO synergizes pretty well w/ bio as it can be used for harass purposes and to snipe off Reavers, HT's). 2) Its very easy to just die to Zealot/Archon (+ HT) transitions/timings as bio. I tested this quite a bit prefirebat and you would die if you didn't get out speedvultures in time (along with your bio forces). Not really sure what to say about it now, but I think Firebats suffer too much when stimming as it drains 20 HP, which is quite a lot from a frontline unit. | ||
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bo1b
Australia12814 Posts
On February 15 2014 00:08 Piy wrote: Since this is effectively a port of BW with some tweaks It's not though. There are enough new units, enough new macro mechanics, and enough engine differences that it's simply not bw with a hd gfx pack and some tweaks. And in all honesty, the biggest problems that I have had with sc2 tvz weren't baneling related at all. They were late game terran and zerg options, in hots that being none for terran, and in wol that being blord infestor/mass ghost for terran. Had the drg vs inno series had more transitions in it I probably would have enjoyed it more then jaedong vs flash on tau. But it is just me, and a lot of people apparently dislike banelings/think they're amove units so take my opinion with a grain of salt. Having said all that, has anyone tried using some sort of vulture bio play vs early game ling/bling? Because the new mines look like they could work really well vs that. | ||
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JonIrenicus
Italy602 Posts
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Hider
Denmark9433 Posts
On February 15 2014 00:42 JonIrenicus wrote: if I said you that, according to me, the problem lies in the fact that stimpack drains too much hp, what would you answer me?  That you are correct if you only refererred to the Firebat and you wanted the Firebat to be be useful vs protoss. | ||
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Zhadez10
Iceland39 Posts
You move in with Lurkers and terran can either focus them down or run. You move in with Lurkers and Banelings and the terran is pretty much limited to running, giving up ground. I'm just pointing out here that banelings help zone out enemy forces for lurkers to get into position. Anyway I have another suggestion for banelings since my idea with half impact damage and rest as damage over time didnt seem to stick. Reduce the impact dmg vs light (cant really go below 23 dmg tho unless you want it to take 3 banelings to kill a marine) but make an upgrade to get bonus damage vs light (and potentially bonus dmg vs shields too). | ||
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