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Czech Republic12129 Posts
On January 10 2014 19:54 vthree wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2014 19:50 Wertheron wrote:
Even when the game is balance (i think it's the real stats) and the Terrans can wins (look at Proleague), the terran players continue to whine (with arrogance and aggressiveness).
It's seems that the only situation that a terran player can tolerate is when his race is totally imba (beginning of Wol or Hots). MC has earned the most money in SC2, yet Protoss players have been crying since WoL...
And MVP is right behind him, yet Terran players have been crying since WoL...
It seems, like both groups have whiners, I'm shocked!
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On January 10 2014 19:47 Khai wrote:
Balance is as good as it has ever been IMO, David Kim please don't fall to popular opinion and assess the statistics objectively!
Don't worry, they have always followed their statistics objectively.
Blizzcon panel 2011
Go to 01:36 and notice how the game was balanced back then and how very little changes have been made! 
On January 10 2014 13:56 Jarree wrote:
I don't tell you how I got the data but everything is 50-50.
- David Kim 2010-2014
I guess I'll never get this attitude from Blizzard: for half of the time we don't get anything but silence, the other half it's "statistics" like in DK's post, which are incomplete at best, due to a little time range and this 'player skill being factored out', or wrong and misleading at worst.
In the meantime my main doubts stay unaswered... the team is in contact with unknown players and experts (and again everyone on twitter seems to complain, so they are either bipolar or someone didn't listen - which is fine and reasonable, but no pro seems to mention that they have interacted with the blance team) and the reasoning behind the map pool is still an incognite.
Thanks for the update! (no sarcasm, only out of courtesy. Being on a forum I guess the clarification is necessary)
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On January 10 2014 19:53 blarkh wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2014 19:43 RaZorwire wrote:On January 10 2014 19:35 blarkh wrote:
Let's not forget that playing Terran it's insanely easy to get really high apm because you're constantly building things. This requires no looking away, very little training, and nearly no thought at all. The fact that Protoss don't need to do this makes their APM requirement much lower without really making it easier to play them. (Because everyone can keep up producing stuff as a Terran even while pushing/dropping). Protoss does require lower APM, yes, but I don't agree with the rest of your post. Not everyone can keep their production up while pushing/dropping, especially not while splitting marines/hitting EMPs, etc. Mechanical difficulty is definitely part of the overall difficulty of a race, and saying that Terran needs to do more stuff but isn't any harder to play seems like a simplification. There are other things that are harder to as Protoss compared to Terran as well, of course (caster management, for the most part), but please don't trivialize Terran macro by saying everyone can do it while keeping track of being aggressive as well. I should have been more clear: Protoss have lower APM because they need lower APM. For example, Protoss build fewer units, so they have to use less klicks for building units. Therefore, without spamming that much more, Protoss won't ever have as many APM as Terrans, and so APM over the course of a game suck as a means of measuring their skill. To say that Protoss don't need high APM at specific times would be stupid in times of blink stalker all-in.
I agree with that part, as I said. Lower APM doesn't mean lower skill, necessarily. But higher mechanical requirements is part of what can make a race difficult, is what I was trying to say.
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On January 10 2014 20:11 tar wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2014 19:57 bo1b wrote:On January 10 2014 19:52 tar wrote:On January 10 2014 19:21 bo1b wrote:On January 10 2014 18:54 TheRabidDeer wrote:On January 10 2014 18:16 MiCroLiFe wrote:What? That statistic's are completly wrong.. They dosnt make sence IN any way.. They should explain how diffrent those stats are compared to the REAL winrate.. I often check my fellow terran's winrate after i play them ( master/diamond) and i rarely see anyone whit over 50% winrate vs zergs.. and over 51% winrate for terrans? so the winrate have gone UP after the widow mine nerf? thats the dumbest thing ive read all day. I think the balance team and DK should really really READ this short memo also ITS 3 TIMES as hard to play terran than protoss. Last season i actually met a protoss whit 36 apm. yes you read right. 36. i had 200+ and the game lastet for 30 minutes. apm and eapm does not mean everything BUT HOW CAN anyone that is 4 x slower than the other player have any chance of actually winning? in progames everyone have 200+ apm.. I barely se protoss whit over 120+ apm in master league.. Those who actually have near my own apm are actually good and do use warp prism harass and other stuff. its totaly okay to lose to a good player. also if you are in late game and have terran army against toss army, WHAT does the toss have to do actually? NOT gettin in a super concave and just storm as soon they see marines. i do rarely se mulitple unit hotkeys from protoss.. Terran have to target the colosus, snipe/emp templars, target archon aswell. would be nice to drop 3 places at once to.. and the most important part, we have to KITE, SPREAD UNITS. thats really really hard when time warp do NOT let you move out before storms are all over you. .. IF you are way way better than the protoss, yeah you will win cause youre macro and micro are superior. if the skill are equal in everything. the toss will win EVERY TIME. Also. i spend my minerals alle the time, i rarely have over 1k minerals.. and after a fight, EVEN if i win a fight against zerg or protoss, they can resupply so damn fast its not even funny. tvz= equal trade, and you can make what? 10 marines, 1 marduer 2 viking, at the same time? while zerg ban actually make the whole army again whitin the same time frame? Protoss can warp in ANYwhere on the map, so as terran you actually have to have TOTALT map control in order to not be harassed.. i always have turret + bunker now at my fourth/fifth. ONE more thing that have to be looked at. WHY is the winrate close to 50% according to blizzard? My thought is that MANY terrans change race or quit due to frustration. which let ONLY the best terrans remain, those who are superior in skill, those who win50%.. Its a reason its so few terrans in master and grandmaster. cause its god damn hard to play and you have to use 5 x time to train on it than the other races... THats why you se korean terrans doin well, while non korean terrans are actually freewin in any big tournaments. NON KOREAN GSL PLAYERS? protoss and zergs. naniwa beats jaedong, diamaga beats flash? scarlett beats korean terrans? do you ever se empirehappy, lucifron win roro, sos or any top korean player? NO YOU DO NOT. and to my fellow terrans, Dont give up! the game will hopefully get balanced in LOTV EDIT: Would also like to add that terran have to actually prepare for ANY all in by protoss, which is hard to scout when a stalker or 2 pokes you and marines are useless against a stalker who just micro's: ebay against oracel? turret against dt? MANY bunkers against blink all in. IMORTAL bust, not eeven 5-6 bunkers are enough. 4gate, 2gate blink. etc etc.. but the worst part if. IF YOU actually are so good and HOLD this all ins, you are stil behind cause losing scv, units etc while protoss can probe up and have free nexus canon deffence.. so counter attack do not work as well:/ Do you have the replay of that 36apm game? Because I think you played like crap if he had 36apm while you had 200+. Also, you overrate APM in general. I can either play like a gold player with 700apm or I can play like a masters player with 130-150apm because im making good movements instead of spamming apm up. Also: List of foreigners that have beaten jaedong Major Jim (protoss) Demuslim SaSe Naniwa theognis Ret That is 3T, 3P, 1Z LucifroN is 43% against koreans Scarlett is 51.35% Naniwa is 46.81% And while dimaga did beat flash, he is 37.41% against koreans Lay off the kool aid and realize the game is probably a lot more balanced than you think. His 36 apm comment is an exxageration to be sure, but I see protoss players in masters league with far lower apm then the other two, far more often. I'm not sure if it's possible to play a non turtling mech terran, or zerg in general with less then 200 apm in masters league, or less then 120 eapm, but it sure as fuck is possible to play that as protoss. And while apm/eapm don't mean everything, it's a bit ridiculous that it's possible to go up against protoss players with 100 less apm, or 60 less eapm then you (or far more) so frequently. I guess I just think that difficulty should be balanced into the equation. In my experience apm scales with the demand there is to use actions. just because a toss only uses 100 apm doesn't mean he is less skilled. I am not even sure if it means that playing terran or zerg is harder due to this. A very simple example: to spend 100 mins on a zealot you need 2 actions (select gateway, click zealot) to spend 100 minerals on marines u need at least 3 actions (given a barracks with an reactor: select building, click marine 2 times). Does that mean building marines takes more skill than building zealots? If a terran plays mech instead of BIO and his apm drop from 180 to 120, does that mean he is less skilled when he plays mech or that there is simply less demand to use APM? That's why in my opinion apm is a bad indicator to judge one's overall skill, more so considering that alot of ppl spam apm due to bad habits and actually fail to use them effectively. One of the reasons it's so impressive to watch innovation or drg when they're on point is that they manage to do so much at once. Having an extra button to click when macroing is important, because it means pulling off everything else is that much harder to do. In any event, there isn't a single protoss player that really distinguishes himself from his peers via mechanical skill. The same isn't true for the other races at all. I disagree with the "on click matters because everything else is harder to do"-argument in general: e.g. spending 1000mins on zerglings simply means holding down a key yet equals 20apm. I am not saying apm isn't a factor to skill but it is a bad indicator. Also, I wasn't even considering pro lvl play. My sentiment to the apm/skill relationship is mostly based on the average sub gm player who equals high apm with skill.
Starcraft is a game of managing resources. One of those resources is apm, or how much you can actually do. Arguing that making something harder doesn't affect the difficulty of other things is nonsensical.
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"but Protoss players have lost at a noticeable clip in that tournament. As of this writing, they’ve recorded only 11 wins in 35 non-mirror matchups"
Like i said, just look at the higher level protoss, they are doing fine on Proleague (except sOs  !!!), proleague are full of protoss players that dont even have 50% of Parting/Rain/Jilla skills, they are pretty much thinking that the race is far more important and powerful than the player itself
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This is why the community is so jaded about balance.
Half-assed statistics and looking only at those winrates. They never tell the whole story, an example would be WoL PvZ.
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instead of thinking on statistics and thinking on esports and crap they should have thought on making the game fun again
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Maru is to blame... he makes playing terran looks so easy...
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On January 10 2014 19:35 blarkh wrote:
Let's not forget that playing Terran it's insanely easy to get really high apm because you're constantly building things. This requires no looking away, very little training, and nearly no thought at all. The fact that Protoss don't need to do this makes their APM requirement much lower without really making it easier to play them. (Because everyone can keep up producing stuff as a Terran even while pushing/dropping).
I'm not sure what I just read here
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Honestly, I would like to see the win rates even, but they might as well ask the community every so often how they feel about the current metagame and if it's enjoyable to watch.
They listen to basically none of the players' feedback about anything, and they have even ignored community feedback at times when they knew that they made a bad decision (look at the queen/overlord patch and how they put out the test map, ignored community concerns and went ahead with it anyway). Asking us if we think the matchups are enjoyable to watch and/or play is vital information. It doesn't only matter if the game is balanced if it is so boring no one wants to play it. I used to love the Terran matchups, but now they're some of the most boring in the game in my opinion.
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On January 10 2014 19:57 bo1b wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2014 19:52 tar wrote:On January 10 2014 19:21 bo1b wrote:On January 10 2014 18:54 TheRabidDeer wrote:On January 10 2014 18:16 MiCroLiFe wrote:What? That statistic's are completly wrong.. They dosnt make sence IN any way.. They should explain how diffrent those stats are compared to the REAL winrate.. I often check my fellow terran's winrate after i play them ( master/diamond) and i rarely see anyone whit over 50% winrate vs zergs.. and over 51% winrate for terrans? so the winrate have gone UP after the widow mine nerf? thats the dumbest thing ive read all day. I think the balance team and DK should really really READ this short memo also ITS 3 TIMES as hard to play terran than protoss. Last season i actually met a protoss whit 36 apm. yes you read right. 36. i had 200+ and the game lastet for 30 minutes. apm and eapm does not mean everything BUT HOW CAN anyone that is 4 x slower than the other player have any chance of actually winning? in progames everyone have 200+ apm.. I barely se protoss whit over 120+ apm in master league.. Those who actually have near my own apm are actually good and do use warp prism harass and other stuff. its totaly okay to lose to a good player. also if you are in late game and have terran army against toss army, WHAT does the toss have to do actually? NOT gettin in a super concave and just storm as soon they see marines. i do rarely se mulitple unit hotkeys from protoss.. Terran have to target the colosus, snipe/emp templars, target archon aswell. would be nice to drop 3 places at once to.. and the most important part, we have to KITE, SPREAD UNITS. thats really really hard when time warp do NOT let you move out before storms are all over you. .. IF you are way way better than the protoss, yeah you will win cause youre macro and micro are superior. if the skill are equal in everything. the toss will win EVERY TIME. Also. i spend my minerals alle the time, i rarely have over 1k minerals.. and after a fight, EVEN if i win a fight against zerg or protoss, they can resupply so damn fast its not even funny. tvz= equal trade, and you can make what? 10 marines, 1 marduer 2 viking, at the same time? while zerg ban actually make the whole army again whitin the same time frame? Protoss can warp in ANYwhere on the map, so as terran you actually have to have TOTALT map control in order to not be harassed.. i always have turret + bunker now at my fourth/fifth. ONE more thing that have to be looked at. WHY is the winrate close to 50% according to blizzard? My thought is that MANY terrans change race or quit due to frustration. which let ONLY the best terrans remain, those who are superior in skill, those who win50%.. Its a reason its so few terrans in master and grandmaster. cause its god damn hard to play and you have to use 5 x time to train on it than the other races... THats why you se korean terrans doin well, while non korean terrans are actually freewin in any big tournaments. NON KOREAN GSL PLAYERS? protoss and zergs. naniwa beats jaedong, diamaga beats flash? scarlett beats korean terrans? do you ever se empirehappy, lucifron win roro, sos or any top korean player? NO YOU DO NOT. and to my fellow terrans, Dont give up! the game will hopefully get balanced in LOTV EDIT: Would also like to add that terran have to actually prepare for ANY all in by protoss, which is hard to scout when a stalker or 2 pokes you and marines are useless against a stalker who just micro's: ebay against oracel? turret against dt? MANY bunkers against blink all in. IMORTAL bust, not eeven 5-6 bunkers are enough. 4gate, 2gate blink. etc etc.. but the worst part if. IF YOU actually are so good and HOLD this all ins, you are stil behind cause losing scv, units etc while protoss can probe up and have free nexus canon deffence.. so counter attack do not work as well:/ Do you have the replay of that 36apm game? Because I think you played like crap if he had 36apm while you had 200+. Also, you overrate APM in general. I can either play like a gold player with 700apm or I can play like a masters player with 130-150apm because im making good movements instead of spamming apm up. Also: List of foreigners that have beaten jaedong Major Jim (protoss) Demuslim SaSe Naniwa theognis Ret That is 3T, 3P, 1Z LucifroN is 43% against koreans Scarlett is 51.35% Naniwa is 46.81% And while dimaga did beat flash, he is 37.41% against koreans Lay off the kool aid and realize the game is probably a lot more balanced than you think. His 36 apm comment is an exxageration to be sure, but I see protoss players in masters league with far lower apm then the other two, far more often. I'm not sure if it's possible to play a non turtling mech terran, or zerg in general with less then 200 apm in masters league, or less then 120 eapm, but it sure as fuck is possible to play that as protoss. And while apm/eapm don't mean everything, it's a bit ridiculous that it's possible to go up against protoss players with 100 less apm, or 60 less eapm then you (or far more) so frequently. I guess I just think that difficulty should be balanced into the equation. In my experience apm scales with the demand there is to use actions. just because a toss only uses 100 apm doesn't mean he is less skilled. I am not even sure if it means that playing terran or zerg is harder due to this. A very simple example: to spend 100 mins on a zealot you need 2 actions (select gateway, click zealot) to spend 100 minerals on marines u need at least 3 actions (given a barracks with an reactor: select building, click marine 2 times). Does that mean building marines takes more skill than building zealots? If a terran plays mech instead of BIO and his apm drop from 180 to 120, does that mean he is less skilled when he plays mech or that there is simply less demand to use APM? That's why in my opinion apm is a bad indicator to judge one's overall skill, more so considering that alot of ppl spam apm due to bad habits and actually fail to use them effectively. One of the reasons it's so impressive to watch innovation or drg when they're on point is that they manage to do so much at once. Having an extra button to click when macroing is important, because it means pulling off everything else is that much harder to do. In any event, there isn't a single protoss player that really distinguishes himself from his peers via mechanical skill. The same isn't true for the other races at all.
they are just different micro.
Zerg and Terran are similar in that regard.
Toss is more similar to WC3.
Time warp, forcefields and storm are the toss micro.
all don't requires high mechanics to pull out, but a smart toss with good placement will always be a toss who has higher apm.
and APM is not a reliable measurement.
Attention is better but there is no way to measure that
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On January 10 2014 20:16 bo1b wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2014 20:11 tar wrote:On January 10 2014 19:57 bo1b wrote:On January 10 2014 19:52 tar wrote:On January 10 2014 19:21 bo1b wrote:On January 10 2014 18:54 TheRabidDeer wrote:On January 10 2014 18:16 MiCroLiFe wrote:What? That statistic's are completly wrong.. They dosnt make sence IN any way.. They should explain how diffrent those stats are compared to the REAL winrate.. I often check my fellow terran's winrate after i play them ( master/diamond) and i rarely see anyone whit over 50% winrate vs zergs.. and over 51% winrate for terrans? so the winrate have gone UP after the widow mine nerf? thats the dumbest thing ive read all day. I think the balance team and DK should really really READ this short memo also ITS 3 TIMES as hard to play terran than protoss. Last season i actually met a protoss whit 36 apm. yes you read right. 36. i had 200+ and the game lastet for 30 minutes. apm and eapm does not mean everything BUT HOW CAN anyone that is 4 x slower than the other player have any chance of actually winning? in progames everyone have 200+ apm.. I barely se protoss whit over 120+ apm in master league.. Those who actually have near my own apm are actually good and do use warp prism harass and other stuff. its totaly okay to lose to a good player. also if you are in late game and have terran army against toss army, WHAT does the toss have to do actually? NOT gettin in a super concave and just storm as soon they see marines. i do rarely se mulitple unit hotkeys from protoss.. Terran have to target the colosus, snipe/emp templars, target archon aswell. would be nice to drop 3 places at once to.. and the most important part, we have to KITE, SPREAD UNITS. thats really really hard when time warp do NOT let you move out before storms are all over you. .. IF you are way way better than the protoss, yeah you will win cause youre macro and micro are superior. if the skill are equal in everything. the toss will win EVERY TIME. Also. i spend my minerals alle the time, i rarely have over 1k minerals.. and after a fight, EVEN if i win a fight against zerg or protoss, they can resupply so damn fast its not even funny. tvz= equal trade, and you can make what? 10 marines, 1 marduer 2 viking, at the same time? while zerg ban actually make the whole army again whitin the same time frame? Protoss can warp in ANYwhere on the map, so as terran you actually have to have TOTALT map control in order to not be harassed.. i always have turret + bunker now at my fourth/fifth. ONE more thing that have to be looked at. WHY is the winrate close to 50% according to blizzard? My thought is that MANY terrans change race or quit due to frustration. which let ONLY the best terrans remain, those who are superior in skill, those who win50%.. Its a reason its so few terrans in master and grandmaster. cause its god damn hard to play and you have to use 5 x time to train on it than the other races... THats why you se korean terrans doin well, while non korean terrans are actually freewin in any big tournaments. NON KOREAN GSL PLAYERS? protoss and zergs. naniwa beats jaedong, diamaga beats flash? scarlett beats korean terrans? do you ever se empirehappy, lucifron win roro, sos or any top korean player? NO YOU DO NOT. and to my fellow terrans, Dont give up! the game will hopefully get balanced in LOTV EDIT: Would also like to add that terran have to actually prepare for ANY all in by protoss, which is hard to scout when a stalker or 2 pokes you and marines are useless against a stalker who just micro's: ebay against oracel? turret against dt? MANY bunkers against blink all in. IMORTAL bust, not eeven 5-6 bunkers are enough. 4gate, 2gate blink. etc etc.. but the worst part if. IF YOU actually are so good and HOLD this all ins, you are stil behind cause losing scv, units etc while protoss can probe up and have free nexus canon deffence.. so counter attack do not work as well:/ Do you have the replay of that 36apm game? Because I think you played like crap if he had 36apm while you had 200+. Also, you overrate APM in general. I can either play like a gold player with 700apm or I can play like a masters player with 130-150apm because im making good movements instead of spamming apm up. Also: List of foreigners that have beaten jaedong Major Jim (protoss) Demuslim SaSe Naniwa theognis Ret That is 3T, 3P, 1Z LucifroN is 43% against koreans Scarlett is 51.35% Naniwa is 46.81% And while dimaga did beat flash, he is 37.41% against koreans Lay off the kool aid and realize the game is probably a lot more balanced than you think. His 36 apm comment is an exxageration to be sure, but I see protoss players in masters league with far lower apm then the other two, far more often. I'm not sure if it's possible to play a non turtling mech terran, or zerg in general with less then 200 apm in masters league, or less then 120 eapm, but it sure as fuck is possible to play that as protoss. And while apm/eapm don't mean everything, it's a bit ridiculous that it's possible to go up against protoss players with 100 less apm, or 60 less eapm then you (or far more) so frequently. I guess I just think that difficulty should be balanced into the equation. In my experience apm scales with the demand there is to use actions. just because a toss only uses 100 apm doesn't mean he is less skilled. I am not even sure if it means that playing terran or zerg is harder due to this. A very simple example: to spend 100 mins on a zealot you need 2 actions (select gateway, click zealot) to spend 100 minerals on marines u need at least 3 actions (given a barracks with an reactor: select building, click marine 2 times). Does that mean building marines takes more skill than building zealots? If a terran plays mech instead of BIO and his apm drop from 180 to 120, does that mean he is less skilled when he plays mech or that there is simply less demand to use APM? That's why in my opinion apm is a bad indicator to judge one's overall skill, more so considering that alot of ppl spam apm due to bad habits and actually fail to use them effectively. One of the reasons it's so impressive to watch innovation or drg when they're on point is that they manage to do so much at once. Having an extra button to click when macroing is important, because it means pulling off everything else is that much harder to do. In any event, there isn't a single protoss player that really distinguishes himself from his peers via mechanical skill. The same isn't true for the other races at all. I disagree with the "on click matters because everything else is harder to do"-argument in general: e.g. spending 1000mins on zerglings simply means holding down a key yet equals 20apm. I am not saying apm isn't a factor to skill but it is a bad indicator. Also, I wasn't even considering pro lvl play. My sentiment to the apm/skill relationship is mostly based on the average sub gm player who equals high apm with skill. Starcraft is a game of managing resources. One of those resources is apm, or how much you can actually do. Arguing that making something harder doesn't affect the difficulty of other things is nonsensical.
Not really. apm is not a limited resource in the sense that every one can only use 200 apm and after that his clicks won't count. Obviously there is a general physical APM limit to humans and a specific apm limit for every individual, yet again, I don't think that factors in most if any sc2 game sub pro lvl (i actually even doubt it at pro lvl)
Also, not all APM is produced equally: my building zerglings example just shows that. You can also look at casting infested terrans for that matter: APM easily spikes to numbers above 600 in pro games when infested terrans are spammed. Does that make it hard to mass cast infested terrans? does it prevent the zerg from his usual macro tasks?
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It seems that most of Terran players are imagining things.
TBH i dont believe those statistics he put up for TvP.
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Not giving raw statistic is plain wrong omg. I'm quite shocked to be honest, it shows only that Blizzard want to hide something.
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I think there should be different stats available. I want to know how often players with lower mmr can beat players with higher mmr per match-up. Blizzard can give us the adjusted win percentages, but it doesn't tell the full story. I also want to see it broken down by map. And I want the adjusted win percentages not only for this week, but for all weeks in the history of the game.
Does Blizzard think that revealing such things is too much transparency? For instance, if they reveal that a map is favored for protoss, all non-protoss players might veto it.
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On January 10 2014 20:28 Liman wrote:
It seems that most of Terran players are imagining things.
TBH i dont believe those statistics he put up for TvP.
He didn't put anything up that could pass as statistics in the academic world... he put up some percentages which he claims represent the win rate with the player skill factored out, but he never cared to explain how he obtained them...
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On January 10 2014 20:29 Faust852 wrote:
Not giving raw statistic is plain wrong omg. I'm quite shocked to be honest, it shows only that Blizzard want to hide something.
giving the raw statistics for ladder shouldn't show anything but close to 50-50 stats due to MMR works, right?
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On January 10 2014 20:17 Faruko wrote:"but Protoss players have lost at a noticeable clip in that tournament. As of this writing, they’ve recorded only 11 wins in 35 non-mirror matchups" Like i said, just look at the higher level protoss, they are doing fine on Proleague (except sOs !!!), proleague are full of protoss players that dont even have 50% of Parting/Rain/Jilla skills, they are pretty much thinking that the race is far more important and powerful than the player itself
But even Rain and Jilla lost last week. So your point is???
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On January 10 2014 20:33 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2014 20:29 Faust852 wrote:
Not giving raw statistic is plain wrong omg. I'm quite shocked to be honest, it shows only that Blizzard want to hide something. giving the raw statistics for ladder shouldn't show anything but close to 50-50 stats due to MMR works, right?
Only if you have separate MMR for each matchup. If you have the same MMR for all matchups, then you will most likely see differences if the game is not balanced. You would lose the majority of the games in the matchup you have the worse race in and win more in the other matchups because either those are tipped in your favor or you are playing players worse than you because of that one imbalanced matchup.
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On January 10 2014 19:40 JustPassingBy wrote:
I like how people expect the whiners to shut up based on the post of David Kim, while the post of David Kim contains no sensible information at all. "win percentages with player skill factored out" sounds nice, but I'm not about to take his word at face value and as long as he doesn't explain the math involved in those percentages, I cannot take them seriously.
And these are the words of somebody who believes that the game is balanced, mind you.
I also feel that the game is not ridiculously imbalanced. Also, ladder system probably gives an impression of huge imbalance for people who get matched beyond their skill level. But it is true that David Kim showed us some numbers without showing us his work, so to speak.
My elementary school teacher wouldn't accept that, so how can we since we don't know how he got to those numbers in the first place.
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EPT
